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cleveland fans have never trusted the dolans, hence the bad attendance over the years, and they have good reason to.
This x100000000000
The reason the fans don't show up is because we have zero belief that the Dolans will turn the Indians into a winner.
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cleveland fans have never trusted the dolans, hence the bad attendance over the years, and they have good reason to.
This x100000000000
The reason the fans don't show up is because we have zero belief that the Dolans will turn the Indians into a winner.
and people don't want to get attached to these players, and then a year or two after, have to explain to their kids about why that player went to another team.
and yes, football is like that too, players come and go, there is always change in the nfl, but unlike football, baseball games are everyday, and it is during the summer when no other sports are going on, people get attached to these players, and i think a lot of these fans saw it coming.
this is the first time in forever where i honestly don't care about the start of baseball OR the start of the indians season. i have not cared about the rest of the league for years, but i still followed the indians, now i won't be following them much at all. i may go pay to see them at the cell, and give the white sox my money, but i won't be attending the indians baseball field when i visit.
i remember being all excited when spring training starts, and then the weather gets nicer, and you start anticipating baseball and the indians. they have killed that for me.
and for those that think i may be a fairweather fan, i was also very excited in the 80's and early 90's when they were a pretty bad organization.
here's to the cavs making a deep june run and to the browns starting training camp a month after.
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i have been the main one arguing over this with you and that article only states what is known.
that the teams willing to completely tank their payroll will make $$$ based on revenue sharing (marlins, devil rays...some years pirates and royals).
but, can't leave out 2 important items:
1. this is the first year that we tanked our payroll to take advantage of this loophole and we are still nowhere near doing it to the effect of the Marlins and Rays were/are.
2. this strategy has proven to be successful for small market teams to compete with the big market clubs. pocket $$$ and take in a bad record for a few years, which in turn helps you build your farm system (assuming Shapiro isn't drafting). then, when your young team has a year where they come together, go out and grab a couple vets with all that $$$ you pocketed to push you over the top and possibly win (marlins) or at least get to (rays) the world series.
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2. this strategy has proven to be successful for small market teams to compete with the big market clubs. pocket $$$ and take in a bad record for a few years, which in turn helps you build your farm system (assuming Shapiro isn't drafting). then, when your young team has a year where they come together, go out and grab a couple vets with all that $$$ you pocketed to push you over the top and possibly win (marlins) or at least get to (rays) the world series.
i agree, that is the way the tribe HAS to do it. but do you honestly believe the indians and this organization are going to go out and spend the $$$ on that talent to go along with their own brought-up talent.
trot nixon and david delluci aren't the moves that put you over the top, they just aren't.
i think fans are tired of the cycle that is now pretty much set in stone. this is our 3rd rebuild in how many years?
so basically, we're going to be bad 7-8 times out of 10 seasons. that is the way things are going. that is simply unacceptable.
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this is the first year that we tanked our payroll to take advantage of this loophole and we are still nowhere near doing it to the effect of the Marlins and Rays were/are.
We have the lowest payroll in our division, and second lowest in the American League. - This will not change. Dolan is going to use attendance as his reason for not spending money. He will continue to manipulate revenue sharing and the proceeds he recieves from sports time ohio. I am not going to be surprised when he moves the team when the lease is up in 2023. He will cite the same reasons for moving that most of you guys are for defending him (attendance, market) This man told one of the biggest lies in the history of Cleveland Sports. He told Dick Jacobs and us that he would reinvest in the team and wanted to win "a string of championships" but all he was ever in this for from the beginning was profit. Granted the man should look out for his business interstests, but he can profit and feild a respectable team at the same time. - If he does this, he won't profit as much, but he'll still profit.
You can't give away two Cy young award winners and our most consistent hitter and then tell me that you care at all about how the team performs. -He needs to be forced out, but he won't, and then all of his defenders will be up in arms in thirteen years when he relocates the team for a 200 million dollar profit and cites Cleveland's lack of interest in the Indians as the reason why he left.
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I think you are in for a rude awakening if he ever does sell the team.
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How could it be worse than it is now?
It has not been this bad in almost 20 years.
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he told the media he wanted to build the indians around pitching (they were a dominant offensive team when he bought them)
trading 2 cy young award winners is obviously the way to build around pitching.
i'm not guaranteeing success if they sold the team, because like i said, it is not all on the dolans, there is a gigantic problem in major league with the even playing field (or lackthereof), but we're turning into the oakland a's. we're everyone else's minor league system.
i don't watch sports because it's a thing to do. i don't watch baseball because it's baseball. i watch because i want my teams to win. and this is complete garbage what they are doing to the fans.
i'm tired of the crap excuses from ownership, and crap predictions from mark shapiro about how we'll compete 3 seasons from now. that's not good enough for me.
at least when the browns fail, it's their own damn fault, but gosh are they trying.
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p.s. the joe mauer deal is the exact same per year $$ that the cc sabathia is. sad.
True.
However, here are a few points I'd argue:
1. Mauer is 3 years younger than CC (27 versus 30). That's a big difference on a 7-year/8-year deal.
2. Mauer is an everyday player. Giving that much money to a guy that only plays every 5th day is tough (hence the reason why Minnesota let Johan Santana leave). Mauer can play 1st or DH to save his knees later.
3. Minne is opening a new ballpark. Trust me, that has a LOT to do with this contract.
4. At the time we traded CC he was having an awful year. And to me, his conditioning was always a question....which would make me cautious on extending him too long into his mid-to-late 30's.
5. When we needed his arm to slam down the Red Sox in the ALCS, he choked. Yes, one game....but it counts.
As far as Lee goes, he wanted to test free agency and wasn't shy about letting everyone know that way in advance (even the Phils traded him after trying to extend him). VMart, let's be honest....he's no Joe Mauer, not even close. He couldn't throw out runners and was getting old. He seemed to ALWAYS be on the DL, especially in the first month of the season.
We'll see what they do with Sizemore. That's a big decision. The Indians have been burnt when going over $10 million per year (Westbrook, Hafner, Wood). We shall see.
We're right back up there with a top 5 farm system. We have to be patient. I'm willing to wait.
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How could it be worse than it is now?
It has not been this bad in almost 20 years.
Sure it has ... 1993 (with the "high spending" Dick Jacobs at the helm). We had the lowest payroll in the AL, and third lowest in the majors:
http://content.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=1993
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jacobs, invest TONS of money into the farm system and player development immediately after purchase in the late 80s with a stated business plan and commitment to developing, signing and actually overpaying our own young core guys early in long term contracts. I believe he did exactly what he said he would do.
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Dolan has tons invested in the farm system as well. I'm not saying Jacobs is a bad owner ... but if revenues are down, and the team isn't doing well, then you're bound to have a low payroll regardless of who the owner is. I've repeatidly bashed Muni over the head showing that Jacobs didn't spend "big" money until he already had several seasons of sell-out revenue on the books. Dolan hasn't really done anything that Jacobs would of done, but he still acts as if Jacobs is a saint, and Dolan is owner Racheal Phelps from Major League. 
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all good points and I would like to remind everyone that the 'bad' trade we made was getting rid of Victor Martinez (not Lee and CC).
Victor loved being an Indian and wanted to remain one for life. However, Shapiro had decided years ago that he was going to be too expensive and stocked our farm system with high level catchers. This basically made his trade a necessity as we never would have gotten good enough value on dealing those catching prospects.
imagine how much better our farm system would be today if we were stocking it with other positions instead and kept Victor long term.
CC and Lee both wanted to test the FA market. They were not taking hometown discounts. On the FA market, we just were not going to be able to compete and we dealt accordingly.
As for Lee going a year early. Look at the extra value Texas got for Texeiera by dealing him a year early. If teams think you have to trade someone, the value sure is not going to go UP if you go from a 1 year and 3 month rental to a 3 month rental.
That is all.
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I've repeatidly bashed Muni over the head showing that Jacobs didn't spend "big" money until he already had several seasons of sell-out revenue on the books.
And you're wrong. The first season we sold out ahead of time was '96. Prior to '96, heck prior to '95, Jacobs had signed Dennis Martinez, Orel Hershiser, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, and Jack Morris. - At the time, some of the best available free agents, and again, at that time, expensive. - We had the 7th highest payroll in 1995. http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/1995/Payroll.asp
We have had a good young core for several years now, and not only has Dolan ignored this by not signing any good veteran talent to support our young core, he has completely destroyed the core itself to the point that we are going to be bottom feeders for another 3 years. At which point, he will destroy the core again if it means more money for him.
Last edited by RememberMuni; 03/22/10 02:03 PM.
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lee wanted to test FA because everyone in the world knows that the indians aren't going to ante up and give him what he deserves. that's why he said that. that's why cc said that. the contract offer given to cc in the spring before his final season with the tribe was a slap to the face and a move that tried to make them seem like they were trying.
cc choked for us. he couldn't handle the pressure. i wouldn't give him 23m a year for all those years either.
but cliff lee is the kind of guy you build around. he was unhittable when it mattered last october.
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cc choked for us. he couldn't handle the pressure. i wouldn't give him 23m a year for all those years either.
I disagree with this. Maybe not on the giving him all the years (hate to give any pitcher a really long contract), but on the choking part.
CC gave us everything he had (and then the Brewers the next year) just to get into the playoffs. He pitched on short rest during the regular season and by the time the playoffs came around his pitchcount on the year was ridiculous and his body gave out on him both years.
Last year, with the Yankees able to rest him more down the stretch, he had plenty left in the tank for the playoffs.
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i dunno about that. the tribe in 2007 wrapped up things a few weeks early.
same starts 07 and 09, 11 more ip in 2007, 2 extra complete games in 2007. i'm not arguing that he didn't pitch more, i just don't think it was all that great of a difference.
he choked. when it mattered the most, he blew it. he didn't have one good start in the playoffs. your ace is supposed to step up, not cry that he pitched too much.
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Damn big market teams.... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5016230The Twins' hometown kid is staying anchored to home. All-Star catcher Joe Mauer and Minnesota completed an eight-year, $184 million deal, a contract which will inevitably be hailed within baseball as an example that teams like the Twins do have a chance to keep their homegrown talent. The deal, which includes a full no-trade clause, ranks in scope with only Alex Rodriguez's 10-year, $275 million contract and Derek Jeter's 10-year, $189 million contract. Mauer is generally regarded as the American League's best player and may be baseball's most coveted player, given his unique set of skills. Mauer, who turns 27 next month, already has won three batting titles and two Gold Glove Awards, and last year, he began to hit for power, posting a 1.031 OPS. If Mauer had become a free agent in the fall, he probably would have been the most coveted free agent since Rodriguez reached free agency after the 2000 season. With the use of total free-agent leverage, Mauer might have commanded a deal for something in the range of $250 million in the fall. But all along, Mauer -- taken by the Twins' No. 1 overall in the same year that Mark Prior was eligible for the draft -- indicated a desire to remain with the Twins in his hometown of St. Paul surrounded by family and friends. Barring a last-minute hold-up, it appears that he will play his entire career for the Twins. The Twins' signing of Mauer to a long-term deal is going to be viewed as a strong development for Major League Baseball, at a time when there are growing concerns about the disparity between teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, and teams that generate less revenue like the Rays, Athletics and Twins. A major challenge for the Twins -- who have evolved from a small-market team into a club with a mid-range budget -- will be how they can compete while paying one player such a high percentage of their payroll. The Rockies made a similar investment in Todd Helton during the last decade, and while Helton has performed well during the course of the contract, his high salary restricted Colorado from making other moves.
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nice to see a smaller market that cares about their fans.
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You missed it bro, we already commented on this, and Larry Dolan's supporters made up more excuses.... Can somebody comment on this: Notice our payroll ranks in the years before and after Larry Dolan bought the team, and take into account where we are now. How can anybody say that this guy cares about anything other than max profit. http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/1995/Payroll.asp
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And here's the key point in the article: Quote:
A major challenge for the Twins -- who have evolved from a small-market team into a club with a mid-range budget -- will be how they can compete while paying one player such a high percentage of their payroll. The Rockies made a similar investment in Todd Helton during the last decade, and while Helton has performed well during the course of the contract, his high salary restricted Colorado from making other moves.
I mean, would you be a lot happier if we signed CC, Lee and Martinez to $15-$20 million deals, had zero flexibility to bring in anyone else ... and STILL didn't make the playoffs??
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bringing in some talent versus bringing in none?
yeah, you know i'd love to see us bring up these young guys, laporta, brantley, carrasco, santana, etc... to go along with some bought talent, but i don't trust the indians one bit to bring in good priced players.
like i said, if trot nixon and david dellucci are your moves to be brought in with your young guys, than id rather see us sign lee and victor and cc, etc..
i think we stand a better chance that way.
because we saw how these last 2 years went. when the talent was there. they did nothing to make that move. kerry wood? come on. damaged goods, over the hill. they could have made better moves than that.
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And you're wrong. The first season we sold out ahead of time was '96. Prior to '96, heck prior to '95, Jacobs had signed Dennis Martinez, Orel Hershiser, Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield, and Jack Morris. - At the time, some of the best available free agents, and again, at that time, expensive. - We had the 7th highest payroll in 1995.
And you don't think a new stadium had ANYTHING to do with that??
While we might not of sold out ... we were averaging over 35,000 in attendance in 1994. The Browns also were leaving town, and the pre-sales for 1995 tickets were probably also increased. We averaged 40,000 for 1995.
Also you have to consider that those lean payrolls from the early 1990's seasons helped financed the better payrolls later on. Free agents were also still reasonably priced then. The Yankees/Mets/Cubs weren't offering twice as much as everyone else could.
The reason Jacobs didn't slash payroll in 1996/1997 is because the fans were coming in droves and the teams were actually living up to expectations. When the team in 2007 made it to the ALCS, the fans were barely selling out games, and the team wasn't meeting expectations anyway.
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because we saw how these last 2 years went. when the talent was there. they did nothing to make that move. kerry wood? come on. damaged goods, over the hill. they could have made better moves than that.
I mentioned this before ... who could we have brought in as a free agent in 2007 ... it was pretty weak pickings.
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I mean, would you be a lot happier if we signed CC, Lee and Martinez to $15-$20 million deals, had zero flexibility to bring in anyone else ... and STILL didn't make the playoffs??
I guess you're right. Getting rid of our best players has led to the flexibility we need to sign............ Jeremy Burnitz? 
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everything got out of hand when the yankees created the YES network and boston followed with NESN
i just absolutely love when the commissioner tries to point out that baseball is fair too. i think it is hilarious. and it's not even his fault. they tried to get things even back in '94 but the union obliterated them.
he's got to sell his product so he comes up with little factoids that shape things to make it seem like baseball is unfair where anyone who watches the game knows it is very far from that.
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 Dude ... when your forced to unload your "core" players because they can't get you to the playoffs. You R E B U I L D. Seriously, what part about "rebuilding" do you not get??? There was no $20 million dollar bandaid that was going to put us over the top, and the current core wasn't going to get us into the playoffs. You REBUILD. We have flexibility down the road BECAUSE we aren't strapped to paying $60million to 3 players right now. Ask Baltimore and Seattle how having a $90 million dollar payroll helps them win title after title.
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what ever happened to trying again?
that's what i hate. we make 1 or 2 runs and then if it doesn't work, we scrap it.
3 rebuilds in the last 10 years. awesome.
what a way to run a franchise.
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I mean, would you be a lot happier if we signed CC, Lee and Martinez to $15-$20 million deals, had zero flexibility to bring in anyone else ... and STILL didn't make the playoffs??
I'd rather take my chances w/ 2 Cy Young winning work horses, V-Mart, Cabrara and Grady than having the flexibility of signing Russell Branyan. 
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and flexibility for what?
this team has proven they aren't gonna go out and get legitimate pieces.
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and flexibility for what?
this team has proven they aren't gonna go out and get legitimate pieces.
That's the point of this more than anything. Dolan's multiple championships speech based on pitching sounds like the "No More Washington as Usual" crap I've heard somewhere before.
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I'd rather take my chances w/ 2 Cy Young winning work horses, V-Mart, Cabrara and Grady than having the flexibility of signing Russell Branyan.
We did ... for a season and a half. We couldn't even make the playoffs, let alone win anything. 
Keep in mind, you have to have rediculous contracts to keep these guys. If they don't work out, it's not like you can just trade them away. Remember Manny and Thome? We DID offer those guys GOOD contracts. Both took REDICULOUS contracts instead. And immediatly, both of those teams were talking about trying to trade them away, or unloading them somehow. I think the Red Sox even put Manny on waivers at one point, and nobody would take him.
So what happens when we keep those three guys for a combined $60 million, and we still can't make the playoffs and/or draw over 30,000 attendance at the gate? ... you know, what was happening in 2007/2008 when Shapiro/Dolan were considering if those guys were worth it. We're stuck with those contracts, and we won't be able to trade them away. We'd have a team that can't get into the playoffs, can't draw a crowd, and no money to invest in the farm system or into other guys down the road. I'm sure you guys would comfort yourself with chants of, "Well at least we kept CC/Lee/V-mart!"
As I mentioned before. WHAT would you guys have done?? What free agents would of you brought in that would of put us over the top?? What kind of contracts would you have paid that would keep us under $100 million, because people still aren't showing up at the stadium? I honestly want to know!
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So what happens when we keep those three guys for a combined $60 million, and we still can't make the playoffs and/or draw over 30,000 attendance at the gate? ... you know, what was happening in 2007/2008 when Shapiro/Dolan were considering if those guys were worth it.
What happens if we keep those guys, and win. - We sell out 455 straight games that's what happens.
As far as 2007/2008, I go back to what I just said, what if we had paid enough to keep Ramirez? Answer - Boston would not have had him batting in the 4 spot and we would end up beating them in the ALCS. - He had his share of offense in that series.
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What happens if we keep those guys, and win. - We sell out 455 straight games that's what happens.
That's a pretty BIG if ... especially considering that NOTHING in 2008/2009 would suggest that would be the case.
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As far as 2007/2008, I go back to what I just said, what if we had paid enough to keep Ramirez? Answer - Boston would not have had him batting in the 4 spot and we would end up beating them in the ALCS. - He had his share of offense in that series.
And what about the 6 years in between??? Boston could barely afford Ramierez and they're a big market team!! Part of the reason we were competitve in 2007 is BECAUSE we scrapped salary, invested in the farm system instead, and brought up a crop of guys that could compete.
So it's 2008 or 2009 ... what do YOU do Muni?? Tell me. Do you spend $60 million on three guys that have taken you to the playoffs one year in three? PRAY that they can somehow do it again? Because if you do, and they still don't win anything, you're stuck with a large payroll, and nobody in the minors to give you hope of winning in the future. Sort of like the Orioles.
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So what happens when we keep those three guys for a combined $60 million, and we still can't make the playoffs and/or draw over 30,000 attendance at the gate? ... you know, what was happening in 2007/2008 when Shapiro/Dolan were considering if those guys were worth it.
What happens if we keep those guys, and win. - We sell out 455 straight games that's what happens.
As far as 2007/2008, I go back to what I just said, what if we had paid enough to keep Ramirez? Answer - Boston would not have had him batting in the 4 spot and we would end up beating them in the ALCS. - He had his share of offense in that series.
A lot of speculation and assumptions in that post.
If we signed Manny, we likely wouldn't have resigned a lot of other players. You're also assuming that Boston doesn't go out and get another big bat.
Either way, Manny was not the difference in that series. If you remember, Manny had a terrible series until maybe game 6. What killed us is they had big time pitchers and we didn't.
In either case, I've yet to hear a good argument as to how the Mauer situation is any way similar to CC or Victor or any of the others that we let go, other than they were impending FA's.
Joe Mauer is a home grown, native of Minnesota. He is the LeBron James of Minnesota, and the Twins knew that. With a new stadium, they can easily pull off a mid Indians type sellout streak if they continue their great success. The only thing holding that franchise back was the POS stadium that they played in and it's lack of lux boxes.
The Twins are spending money because their fans are going to games. It's actually kind of ironic, before this signing, the Twins fans murdered their owner about being cheap...I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen with the Tribe if we ever got sustained success to bring the fans back. Hopefully we find out soon.
you had a good run Hank.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
fans ain't gonna be back until the trading of all star caliber players in their prime stops. which, as it stands, won't happen for a long time.
sure, we'll have a playoff run, or two, every 10 years, and we'll sell out then, but they won't stick around for long, and i don't blame them.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Agreed ... and that's an MLB problem, not a Dolan problem.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Quote:
Agreed ... and that's an MLB problem, not a Dolan problem.
Well, to be fair...Dolan is part of the problem too (it's mostly the MLB system though). What specific percentage? Maybe 75-25 on MLB. But that's just my opinion.
If we had a owner like Mark Cuban....who knows where we would be. Maybe winning, maybe not. I wouldn't consider Dolan the worst owner in Clevland history (we know who that is)....heck, Dolan isn't even the worst Indians owner in my lifetime. He's also not the best either.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
If we had a owner like Mark Cuban....who knows where we would be.
Agreed ... but there aren't a lot of owners out there like that. Guys just willing to spend money and lose it because the team is more or less their own play-toy. How many current teams have an owner like that?? Most MLB franchises are in pretty much the same boat that the Indians are.
It's funny, because San Diego is in the same situation. Last year, they sold the team to Jeff Moorad, and everyone instantly thought there would be all kinds of free agents coming in ... all kinds of money spent ... all kinds of instant winning. What happened? The same thing that happened with the previous owner ... which is also pretty much the same thing that happens with the Indians and every other mid-market team.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
fans ain't gonna be back until the trading of all star caliber players in their prime stops.
Then baseball in any mid-market city is dead. It's part of the financial reality of the MLB.
you had a good run Hank.
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