|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
AUSTIN, Tex. — After three days of turbulent meetings, the Texas Board of Education on Friday approved a social studies curriculum that will put a conservative stamp on history and economics textbooks, stressing the superiority of American capitalism, questioning the Founding Fathers’ commitment to a purely secular government and presenting Republican political philosophies in a more positive light. The vote was 10 to 5 along party lines, with all the Republicans on the board voting for it. The board, whose members are elected, has influence beyond Texas because the state is one of the largest buyers of textbooks. In the digital age, however, that influence has diminished as technological advances have made it possible for publishers to tailor books to individual states. In recent years, board members have been locked in an ideological battle between a bloc of conservatives who question Darwin’s theory of evolution and believe the Founding Fathers were guided by Christian principles, and a handful of Democrats and moderate Republicans who have fought to preserve the teaching of Darwinism and the separation of church and state. Since January, Republicans on the board have passed more than 100 amendments to the 120-page curriculum standards affecting history, sociology and economics courses from elementary to high school. The standards were proposed by a panel of teachers. “We are adding balance,” said Dr. Don McLeroy, the leader of the conservative faction on the board, after the vote. “History has already been skewed. Academia is skewed too far to the left.” Battles over what to put in science and history books have taken place for years in the 20 states where state boards must adopt textbooks, most notably in California and Texas. But rarely in recent history has a group of conservative board members left such a mark on a social studies curriculum. Efforts by Hispanic board members to include more Latino figures as role models for the state’s large Hispanic population were consistently defeated, prompting one member, Mary Helen Berlanga, to storm out of a meeting late Thursday night, saying, “They can just pretend this is a white America and Hispanics don’t exist.” “They are going overboard, they are not experts, they are not historians,” she said. “They are rewriting history, not only of Texas but of the United States and the world.” The curriculum standards will now be published in a state register, opening them up for 30 days of public comment. A final vote will be taken in May, but given the Republican dominance of the board, it is unlikely that many changes will be made. The standards, reviewed every decade, serve as a template for textbook publishers, who must come before the board next year with drafts of their books. The board’s makeup will have changed by then because Dr. McLeroy lost in a primary this month to a more moderate Republican, and two others — one Democrat and one conservative Republican — announced they were not seeking re-election. There are seven members of the conservative bloc on the board, but they are often joined by one of the other three Republicans on crucial votes. There were no historians, sociologists or economists consulted at the meetings, though some members of the conservative bloc held themselves out as experts on certain topics. The conservative members maintain that they are trying to correct what they see as a liberal bias among the teachers who proposed the curriculum. To that end, they made dozens of minor changes aimed at calling into question, among other things, concepts like the separation of church and state and the secular nature of the American Revolution. “I reject the notion by the left of a constitutional separation of church and state,” said David Bradley, a conservative from Beaumont who works in real estate. “I have $1,000 for the charity of your choice if you can find it in the Constitution.” They also included a plank to ensure that students learn about “the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s, including Phyllis Schlafly, the Contract With America, the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority and the National Rifle Association.” Dr. McLeroy, a dentist by training, pushed through a change to the teaching of the civil rights movement to ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers in addition to the nonviolent approach of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He also made sure that textbooks would mention the votes in Congress on civil rights legislation, which Republicans supported. “Republicans need a little credit for that,” he said. “I think it’s going to surprise some students.” Mr. Bradley won approval for an amendment saying students should study “the unintended consequences” of the Great Society legislation, affirmative action and Title IX legislation. He also won approval for an amendment stressing that Germans and Italians as well as Japanese were interned in the United States during World War II, to counter the idea that the internment of Japanese was motivated by racism. Other changes seem aimed at tamping down criticism of the right. Conservatives passed one amendment, for instance, requiring that the history of McCarthyism include “how the later release of the Venona papers confirmed suspicions of communist infiltration in U.S. government.” The Venona papers were transcripts of some 3,000 communications between the Soviet Union and its agents in the United States. Mavis B. Knight, a Democrat from Dallas, introduced an amendment requiring that students study the reasons “the founding fathers protected religious freedom in America by barring the government from promoting or disfavoring any particular religion above all others.” It was defeated on a party-line vote. After the vote, Ms. Knight said, “The social conservatives have perverted accurate history to fulfill their own agenda.” In economics, the revisions add Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek, two champions of free-market economic theory, among the usual list of economists to be studied, like Adam Smith, Karl Marx and John Maynard Keynes. They also replaced the word “capitalism” throughout their texts with the “free-enterprise system.” “Let’s face it, capitalism does have a negative connotation,” said one conservative member, Terri Leo. “You know, ‘capitalist pig!’ ” In the field of sociology, another conservative member, Barbara Cargill, won passage of an amendment requiring the teaching of “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices” in a section on teenage suicide, dating violence, sexuality, drug use and eating disorders. “The topic of sociology tends to blame society for everything,” Ms. Cargill said. Even the course on world history did not escape the board’s scalpel. Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term “separation between church and state.”) “The Enlightenment was not the only philosophy on which these revolutions were based,” Ms. Dunbar said. link
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
And we wonder why we see so many dumb people around us.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,651
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,651 |
It is interesting to see the State of Texas using Lenin's approach to eduction.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810 |
It must be something in the water or air in Texas...they seem to have this desire to rewrite history.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,861 |
Am I reading this right.. a small group of politicians in Texas has decided to surpress history in a fashion that fits thier beliefs of how it SHOULD be rather than how it WAS?
Next thing you know, they'll be burning books that are about topics that they don't agree with..
Geesh...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,246 |
Some things I can understand in particular the part about teaching personal responsibility but as always history is written by the winners to coincide with the winners beliefs. This is a real shame. Undoubtedly they will screw this part up: Quote:
. . . pushed through a change to the teaching of the civil rights movement to ensure that students study the violent philosophy of the Black Panthers . . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Thi is nothing more than somebody in somebody else's pocket,...golf course talk,...money.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 294
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 294 |
I found this comment interesting. Quote:
GregA wrote:
OK, people, let's be real about all this.
First, probably not more than 10% of you have even read the standards that were proposed. It is unlikely that anyone here has read the standards as adopted, since they are not even posted yet. And there is still one more round of revision and voting to go, so these are not even the final standards -- those will be adopted later, after another public comment period. Rather than making uninformed comments here, why don't you read the standards when they are posted and make rational, informed comments to the SBOE during the public comment period in an effort to improve these standards. You know -- be a responsible citizen.
Second, these standards are a baseline of what must be taught, not a fence that limits what must be taught. As a social studies teacher, I know that I go far beyond what the minimum standards set int he TEKS tell me I must do -- and so does every teacher I know.
Third, at least some of the changes made by the SBOE sound bad without context. Yesterday, for example, there was an uproar about not including by name a group of minority recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor. I was outraged -- until I learned that the proposal was to include these men in the WORLD HISTORY TEKKS, not the US HISTORY TEKS -- and the plan was to look at including these heroes in the latter standards instead (I'll be interested to see if they were included there). What we got in the press accounts was therefore long on sensationalism and short on actual facts -- indeed, the omission of that information from the article bordered on fraud against the readers.
Fourth, lets be honest about standards in the social sciences, especially history. New information is uncovered about historical events on a regular basis, necessitating changes in what is taught. New evaluations are made of past events and historical figures, often based upon new scholarship, that make it appropriate to revise a curriculum. And yes, value judgments have to be made about what is important enough to include or emphasize in a curriculum -- it is impossible to teach ALL history, especially when one is teaching a World History course that covers the entire scope of human history from australopithicus to the War on Terrorism. That makes such a guiding document a necessity -- and the testing regime established in recent years makes such a document the road map that tells teachers what is fair game for the state to expect their students to know and to test them over.
From this site.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
In other words, students from Texas will believe George Bush was a great military pilot who fought in many wars and won many prestigious awards, before becoming a commanding force in liberating the entire middle east. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133 |
Quote:
It is unlikely that anyone here has read the standards as adopted, since they are not even posted yet.
Gee, the New York Times says the republicans in Texas are racist. That's fresh.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
What can you say... this is just Texas being Texas. The place is a mess. Having said that, however, political tinkering with the content of text books is nothing new and it is certainly not unique to Texas. I think people here in the north might be a little surprised by how the Civil War and it's aftermath are treated in history books you find in southern schools.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
Our educational system is lacking because it's based on standardized testing for the purpose of dispersing funds, rather than on educating.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
Our educational system is lacking because it's based on standardized testing for the purpose of dispersing funds, rather than on educating.
For the record I wasn't saying this was the reason our system is lacking it was more along the lines of this is just another peice on the pile of crap that is our education system.
I know too well the disperising funds issue. I went to Maple Hts school system for a while. I took Algebra in 7th and Geometry in 8th, but when I was in 8th grade the 9th graders had something like 2% pass the math proficency test. So the next year when I was in 9th they stuck us all in a class to go over what was going to be on the test. I moved half-way through the year and my new school system put me in it's equivilant class....pre-algebra. Since the school year was more than half over they wouldn't let me test out until the next year.
Maple Hts. made that class just because they were slammed for their low test scores. They didn't even let us who were in advanced math classes be exempt from the class. They never fixed the issue at the grade school and middle school area. In my Algebra and Geometry classes there was 13 of us out of a 350+ class. More than half of us in the class came from other school systems. I originaly came from Kenston---->Berkshire----->Maple Hts.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
Our educational system is lacking because it's based on standardized testing for the purpose of dispersing funds, rather than on educating.
Two very good points, gentlemen. BZ !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
What can you say... this is just Texas being Texas. The place is a mess.
Having said that, however, political tinkering with the content of text books is nothing new and it is certainly not unique to Texas. I think people here in the north might be a little surprised by how the Civil War and it's aftermath are treated in history books you find in southern schools.
How is Texas a mess? Is it just in reference to this lunacy or did you have something else in mind?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
Our educational system is lacking because it's based on standardized testing for the purpose of dispersing funds, rather than on educating.
Nail, meet hammer. Right on the head my friend.
There are no sacred cows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
Quote:
And there is still one more round of revision and voting to go, so these are not even the final standards
History should NEVER be subject to revisions. Teach the TRUTH, not simply in the light you want it shown.
Anything else is propagandistic B.S.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Agreed Prp.
To that note ... how much "revisionist" teaching is already going on? They want to remove Thomas Jefferson in this example ... but do you know how many people already think the words "seperation of church and state" exist in the constitution?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
There's WAY too much going on.
The History that is taught in Elementary, Middle and even High Schools is sooooo revisionist and "sanitized" that I was stunned at some of the things I learned as I got older and saw/heard/read the truths. We seem to go out of our way to paint ourselves in overly positive lights..... probably a fair bit of that was the era that I grew up in (Cold War) and the "need" for patriotic propaganda, but I think it has gone way overboard... and now having a single political party re-write history to suit their agenda? That's absolutely, downright disgusting.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
Quote:
What can you say... this is just Texas being Texas. The place is a mess.
Having said that, however, political tinkering with the content of text books is nothing new and it is certainly not unique to Texas. I think people here in the north might be a little surprised by how the Civil War and it's aftermath are treated in history books you find in southern schools.
How is Texas a mess? Is it just in reference to this lunacy or did you have something else in mind?
The reason this is a big deal is that the Texas Board of Education is the governing body that decides what standards should be taught to each student, and will only purchase books that conform to their standards. As such, textbook publishers will only print/publish books that will sell. Since the state of Texas is the largest purchaser of textbooks in the country, more resources from the booksellers will be put into these altered books, thus, potentially forcing other states to conform to the standards of Texas.
Here's a little bit from a blog that has a Nightline exclusive from one of the board members. It really is eye opening as to what a small part of our populace is doing and the large ramifications it will have on teaching our kids.
There are no sacred cows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
What can you say... this is just Texas being Texas. The place is a mess.
How is Texas a mess? Is it just in reference to this lunacy or did you have something else in mind?
thanks for beating me to it....this measure is silly, but outside of that....nation's best economy, best housing market, no income tax, great weather, friendly people.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What can you say... this is just Texas being Texas. The place is a mess.
How is Texas a mess? Is it just in reference to this lunacy or did you have something else in mind?
thanks for beating me to it....this measure is silly, but outside of that....nation's best economy, best housing market, no income tax, great weather, friendly people.
The only thing I don't like about Texas is the Dallas Cowboys. Everyone that I know that has moved to Texas are floored by how friendly the people are compared to our bitter Yankee arses.
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
There much more to Texas than Dallas, much more  It's a 4 hour drive from here to Dallas, and if i want to leave the state I better be ready for an 8-9 hour skip to the Bayou or Tornado Alley :P The heat makes people a little crazy (this bill) but they are still nice
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum. This absolutly disgusts me. People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
How to do that, though? It's nearly impossible.
Another poster referenced how the Civil War is taught in the South ... ever read a British textbook relating to the Revolutionary War? We're kind of painted as spoiled brats.
For instance ... what about Vietnam? I know a lot of school systems won't even teach it. Far more than I ever wanted to know.
But then again ... how do you teach it?
You could try to give a 'just the facts' talk on the logistics and make a note or two about the heavy opposition to the war ... but then you'd still have a kid go home and say 'My teacher said a lot of people were against Vietnam', and then dad is angry, and there's a situation at a PTA meeting where someone is upset.
I think the biggest problem comes from people who look at ideas as poison. They call it brainwashing or propaganda or whatever, but the truth is, if you've raised your kid right and taught him a thing or two, then he'd be more likely to look at an idea and question it and pursue further inquiry, etc.
If I had a kid in middle school and he came home and said 'my teacher said George W. Bush was a great president', I honestly don't think I'd call the school board raving. I'd probably explain that a lot of people believe that, and explain what I thought, and suggest that the read up on the matter further.
Maybe I'd make a snide comment at a parent teacher conference.
I've said it forever ... our schools teach kids to listen, not to learn.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
For instance ... what about Vietnam? I know a lot of school systems won't even teach it. Far more than I ever wanted to know.
But then again ... how do you teach it?
Just tell the truth,...
# 1 -- every tenured middle and high school teacher in America either grew up during the Vietnam Era, or their parents did. Some wouldn't teach it even if it was IN the standards AND the textbooks, ...because,...
# 2 -- It was a nightmare on every front,....socially, politically, economically, militarily.
Why haggle over so much controversy ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
There should be some way of making sure history is tought the way it happened with out agenda's being pushed into student curriculum.
As has been pointed out, "history" is a matter of perspective. You can I could watch the same things unfold and write completely different historical accounts of what happened, how it happened, and why it happened. I'm sorry, much of history is not absolute. And much of our accounts, whether you like it or not, would be based on our own preconceived notions.. our "agendas"..
Quote:
This absolutly disgusts me.
Why does this disgust you? Because somebody doesn't like the bias that is built into the way we teach history and wants to change it to a slightly different bias? ... Perhaps you agree with one more than the other and that's what really disgusts you.
Quote:
People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
I guess I will be the first to make the correction.. our education system is LAGGING behind other countries for a couple of reasons.. the first of which is that since long before Bush we have subscribed to a "No Child Left Behind" mentality, he just put a catchy name on it... well I'm sorry every teacher I talk to spends 80% of their time dealing with the bottom 10% of their class because they aren't allowed to leave any kid behind.. fail their arse and move on with the kids that are doing the work. This is valuable time that could be spent actually helping kids who will do the work excel and achieve something.. but those kids suffer and are held back by the kids that don't give a crap.
The second biggest reason is that parents expect schools to teach their children everything with minimal parental involvement.. and the kids fail. Too many parents view public school as free daycare.....
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Right, but like I said earlier ... some kid goes home and says 'my teacher said it was a nightmare on every front' ... someone's going to call and complain about that.
There's these touchy political issues that crop up and one group wants to teach it one way and another group disagrees ... and you end up giving kids either a stunted lesson or you ignore it completely.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all ... I'm saying it would often become problematic within the school system.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Is this not why I have always considered you one of my "main men," or what ???????  (except for your hatred of my # 1 seeded Dukies, and # 2 seeded Buckeyes,...) I have worked in the public school system,...actual "education" -- no matter 'how or what' is taught -- seems to be the furthest thing from anyone's mind there (Kids, Administration, Parents & Teachers) We would actually be better off having a system that didn't require that kids "go to school."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Quote:
People wonder why our education system is lacking behind other countries.
I guess I will be the first to make the correction.. our education system is LAGGING behind other countries for a couple of reasons.. the first of which is that since long before Bush we have subscribed to a "No Child Left Behind" mentality, he just put a catchy name on it... well I'm sorry every teacher I talk to spends 80% of their time dealing with the bottom 10% of their class because they aren't allowed to leave any kid behind.. fail their arse and move on with the kids that are doing the work. This is valuable time that could be spent actually helping kids who will do the work excel and achieve something.. but those kids suffer and are held back by the kids that don't give a crap.
The second biggest reason is that parents expect schools to teach their children everything with minimal parental involvement.. and the kids fail. Too many parents view public school as free daycare.....
Our education system - the fact that "every kid needs to learn "x", "y" and "z" - is part of the reason our education system isn't as good as it could be.
Here's what every kid needs to know: how to read, how to use proper english in conversation AND in writing, and how to do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.
Not every kid needs to be top notch. We need plumbers, truck drivers, carpenters, etc.......those are absolutely NEEDED in this country. So why force students to learn something they either can't or don't want to? Especially when doing so is holding back other students that want to delve deeper into math, science, etc?
Why put a black mark on someone because they don't care about algebra? Why is it a "one size fits all" situation?
We had some idiots in my high school class. Many of those "idiots" now make much more money than me. They couldn't have cared less about school - but they did what they knew.
One is a mechanic - makes almost twice what I do. He can read, he can write, he can do math - but he can listen to a car and know exactly what is wrong with it.
Another - several actually - drive truck. They don't need to know trigonometry - and even if they did how would it help them?
I had good grades in h.s. - decent grades in college - BA in Bus. Admin and "almost" a minor in econ. Today? I'm what many would call a "menial laborer" - no skin off my back. Doesn't bug me one bit.
When our ed. system takes a step back and says "kids need to be able to read, write, and do math"........and realizes that some will stop there, but others will want and need more educational challenges - it will get better.
More money? B.S. My high school had a principal. And teachers. Our district had a superintendent and 2 other principals. We didn't have a curriculum advisor, and an assistant curriculum advisor - we didn't have a technology director and an assistant tech. director. We didn't have all the special ed. teachers - 2 lunch room assistants, nor did we have 2 playground directors........yet we do today.
And I help out in my daughters class - and I see all those jobs - and I work with the same kids every day I"m there - they didn't get things in kindergarten, and they still don't get things in 3rd grade.
We need to quit thinking every kid needs to know everything. There's no harm in that - no "bad feelings" should be involved. Some of these kids I know will be top notch in some "menial labor" job. Just like me. Where's the harm in that? Why hold future doctors, engineers, etc back?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
Quote:
Right, but like I said earlier ... some kid goes home and says 'my teacher said it was a nightmare on every front' ... someone's going to call and complain about that.
This country needs to step away from its pansy ass feel good about everything notions and just spit out the truth. Hurt someones feelings? They need to deal with it.
Tell the truth about Nam - not some fuddled up make believe truth. I know several people that served in vietnam - not a single one of them would be opposed to the truth being known. What they don't care for is the "oh, you're a murderer cause you were there" kind of thing.
We currently live in a pansy ass, "that's not fair", why does he/she make more than me that's not fair, you hurt my feelings country.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
In 1972, I was a naieve 17 year old just before the Vietnam War started to become "de-escalated."
Maybe I was not "in-tune,"....but I watched Walter Cronkite every night,...
I WANTED to go there, and "do" better than "we" were "doing." It was my patriotic duty,...(and/or stupidity.)
To NOT teach THAT lesson in the American classroom is where we are going wrong,...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
well I'm sorry every teacher I talk to spends 80% of their time dealing with the bottom 10% of their class because they aren't allowed to leave any kid behind.. fail their arse and move on with the kids that are doing the work. This is valuable time that could be spent actually helping kids who will do the work excel and achieve something.. but those kids suffer and are held back by the kids that don't give a crap.
Well your school system is definitely different than here. My stepson struggled with math, but since here they just keep pushing on, he just fell further and further behind to the point we spent thousands sending hm to Sylvan. They literally spent just 1 week in 2nd grade on multiplication tables. Then moved on.
I mean come on, those tables are one of the most fundamental parts of math, and deserve more than 1 week of teaching. Especially after meeting with the teacher and finding out that they would read the chapter they were working on that week, and then split into groups and work on the subject matter themselves while he sat and graded papers. I was floored, thinking that 2nd graders were expected to basically learn on their own?
My stepson, 22 now, still struggles with some basic math functions. yet he's proved to himself recently that he isn't stupid, which he says he always thought he was because of how he struggled in school. He is in the police academy and is currently #2 in his class, and spends every night studying and enjoying what he's learning.
teach the fundamentals, and let the kids decide what path they want to take. maybe we should have more electives of the basic subject that are more advanced for those interested in learning.
I remember history class. Most was about memorizing dates. I didn't know why those dates were important, but damn it, I knew when this or that war started and ended, I knew when something was discovered, I knew when so and so did something important. Is it more important to know WHEN the Gettysburg Address was, or what it was?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
I agree with alot of what is being said on many fronts. But I have to make a comment about this... Quote:
Tell the truth about Nam - not some fuddled up make believe truth.
This is the issue...this is the problem.....Who's truth?....Your truth?....Some San Fransisco hippie's truth?....Truth is a perspective.
Concerning Vietnam...I did like what my school did. They brought in about 20 people who had served in different capacities. And for an entire week we didn't have any classes. We just listened to these people speak and interacted with them. We heard good things and we heard bad things. Afterward we had to pick something from one of the speakers and report upon it. But since we had to expand upon it...it forced us to research and also interact more with that person. But we didn't just study the soldiers...we looked at the protest movement as well...and being in Northeast Ohio the Kent State shootings were always solemnly observed.
I consider myself lucky in that I had a curriculum, that promted forming your own opinons on things. This may or may not be the best example of that...but I remember specific teachers pushing that very concept.
So in a way I almost answer my own question....Who's truth???? Yes.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
Quote:
Who's truth?....Your truth?....Some San Fransisco hippie's truth?
The Truth.
Quote:
Truth is a perspective.
Only when viewed through an agenda, colored with propaganda, or when excluding facts.... and then it isn't The Truth any longer, just "a" truth.
The absolute Truth takes no sides, pulls no punches and lays it all out on the table in plain view and allows the viewer to form their own opinion.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
What you are looking for is "fact"...not "truth"
There is no "absolute truth" except that deemed by God. And there are several problems with that...#1 not everyone believes in God....#2 I would not be so bold and ignorant as to state equivically what "God's Truth" is.
semantics???? maybe...but we did say we wanted to deal with absolutes.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
Truth is a perspective.
Only when viewed through an agenda, colored with propaganda, or when excluding facts.... and then it isn't The Truth any longer, just "a" truth.
So what is the truth behind why we went into Iraq that you are going to teach the kids?
Was it because we thought they were a threat with WMDs who were trying to maintain a nuclear program?
Was it because we thought they secretly had something to do with 9/11?
Was it to protect our oil interest in the middle east?
Was it because George W. Bush was trying to avenge an assassination attempt on his father?
Was it because we viewed Iraq as a weak link in the middle east and a place we could occupy long enough to plant the seeds of democracy, create an ally, and use as a base for monitoring the rest of the middle east?
See, in order to TEACH the truth, first you must KNOW the truth.. and much of history is so old that we have very limited information by which to understand "the truth"... much of history is so new that the truth is still "classified"... and much of history occurred in places like Russia, Nazi Germany, North Vietnam, and China where much of the truth was/is buried so deep we will never find it or it was lost in the rubble.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
True, that does apply to many things... the ACTUAL truth isn't known until well after the fact (usually once anyone that could be implicated has passed away, sadly).
But that is hardly universal, and in cases such as Vietnam where the real truth is known about many, many things, you teach that - and you leave interpretation and opinion and agenda the hell out of things. In those other cases, sadly, it is simply human nature that in the absence of real facts you have only partial truth, and agenda, propaganda and politics will fill the void.... and we are left with the "truth as it is known (e.g. as it is spoon-fed to us)".
The point is that we should not be teaching a "We-centric" view of history in the sense that we constantly paint us in a positive light in all we do. We should be truthful and not shy about teaching even the bad things we've done.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,224 |
Quote:
Only when viewed through an agenda, colored with propaganda, or when excluding facts.... and then it isn't The Truth any longer, just "a" truth.
The absolute Truth takes no sides, pulls no punches and lays it all out on the table in plain view and allows the viewer to form their own opinion.
Purp is right on this one. Truth, is defined as:
- Conformity to fact or actuality.
- A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
- Sincerity; integrity.
- Fidelity to an original or standard.
- Reality; actuality. That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.
Truth, by necessity, follows fact. Anything taken from the truth enters the realm of opinion and bias. Teaching the truth, the facts, is what we should be doing in regards to all of history, good and bad. That's why math is so nice from a teaching perspective, there's no bias, no opinion, just proofs and theorems.
There are no sacred cows.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Good post DC,....can't help but not wonder about the "truths" of the JFK assassination, for example.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Texas Conservatives Win Curriculum
Change: May Remove Thomas
Jefferson
|
|
