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Then wonder about the "truths" seen at roswell, or the 9/11 attacks. There's as much evidence showing that the right outcome was reached as the JFK assassination.
There are no sacred cows.
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Gentlemen... I understand that if you have an absolute truth, then you teach it that way and you don't shy away from showing the dark underbelly.. but when it comes to major world events down through time, rarely are the facts cut and dried and undisputed.
yebat' Putin
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Then wonder about the "truths" seen at roswell, or the 9/11 attacks. There's as much evidence showing that the right outcome was reached as the JFK assassination.
We may think we've reached "right outcomes," but are they the real truth ?
(SideBar here,...Just my take on LHO,...a Marine 'Marksman.' By their actual standards, I qualified much higher than Oswald on six separate occasions. One's ability to do that does not change much over time. But I believe that I personally could not have pulled off what we are told is the truth about his capability to fire that weapon in the purported manner. This doesn't mean he did not, but it leaves me lingering doubt that he did.)
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Legend
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Gentlemen... I understand that if you have an absolute truth, then you teach it that way and you don't shy away from showing the dark underbelly.. but when it comes to major world events down through time, rarely are the facts cut and dried and undisputed.
Right, but you don't selectively cherry-pick and you don't shine things in a particular light to meet an ideology. You certainly do not inject your own political beliefs and such into things. And, if there are opposing views on something, you teach ALL opposing views and you do it without injecting a bias.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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IMO.. you produce all sides of it and let the student come to his/her own conclusions. That is where truth resides.
Also I feel as many on here do. We need to stop cramming this standard curriculum down all students throats. I believe at the 8th grade level (after core studies have been taught and passed) students should have the right to choose their path, much like they do in college. If they are into arts... let them take arts... if they like sciences, then takes sciences... if they like wood shop... let them take vocational training... etc
Another side, I think this could be accomplished better by having students arrive at their "home" school and take classes that are deemed to be continuations of the core curriculum (history, social studies, and english IMO). Then for the next half of the day attend a seperate school with similiar students with similiar interests... being taught what is important to them in a more hands on environment.
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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That is all fine and good when you are dealing with cold hard "facts".
1+1 = 2
a is a vowel b is a consonant
There are 3 main branches of the government
Photosynthesis...
etc.
but there is a 3 letter word that can put the kibosh on something and turn somehting into a muckfest quicker than lightning. This especially holds true concerning Human events.
W-H-Y
As soon as you ask this question you automatically open it up to interpretation, ideology, and bias. Whether it be your own or someone elses interpretation.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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Also I feel as many on here do. We need to stop cramming this standard curriculum down all students throats. I believe at the 8th grade level (after core studies have been taught and passed) students should have the right to choose their path, much like they do in college. If they are into arts... let them take arts... if they like sciences, then takes sciences... if they like wood shop... let them take vocational training... etc
many students have trouble picking a vocation for life when they are 18 and in college. but, now, you would be forcing them to do it at 14?
because, if you want to be a doctor and don't take those science courses, good luck getting into pre-med for college.....engineering and match....et cetera.
i think one of our societies issues has been we are becoming too specialized in everything we do (take youth athletics for one example). this would be a very dangerous area to do it in.
#gmstrong
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And it is in those instances you present it as such: "Some feel that it is because of 'X' because of 'Y' and 'Z', while others feel it is because of 'A' because of 'B' and 'C'.".
Education should teach what we know and teach them to reach their own conclusions from there. It should not indoctrinate.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Quote:
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Gentlemen... I understand that if you have an absolute truth, then you teach it that way and you don't shy away from showing the dark underbelly.. but when it comes to major world events down through time, rarely are the facts cut and dried and undisputed.
Right, but you don't selectively cherry-pick and you don't shine things in a particular light to meet an ideology. You certainly do not inject your own political beliefs and such into things. And, if there are opposing views on something, you teach ALL opposing views and you do it without injecting a bias.
 Good luck with that,...but teachers do it all the time
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Education should teach what we know and teach them to reach their own conclusions from there.
Agreed. Critical thinking and logic should be taught in schools. One of the main downfalls of "teaching to the test" is the lack of critical thinking that's taught. Although this idea might be described as elitism and an over-intellectualization of youth.
There are no sacred cows.
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But you can't possibly provide every angle and perspective on the issues at hand...and when you select what viewpoints you do show(even if they are contradicting).....you are doing exactly what you say you don't want to do...
I understand what you want to do...and I agree with what you want to accomplish...but frankly it just isn't possible with out some filtering and some bias getting in there.
For one thing there just is not enough time.
Do we teach Great Brittian's side of the issue concerning the Revolutionary War. If we do it is VERY minimal and not emphasized much by any means. And unfortunately but rightly so as the focus is supposed to be United States History and the perspective from the United States...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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i think one of our societies issues has been we are becoming too specialized in everything we do (take youth athletics for one example). this would be a very dangerous area to do it in.
I couldn't disagree more. Our knowledge base on many fronts is too vast now not to have specialists. Specializing is a risk, true, but to not specialize is to often get left behind in all aspects of life. One of the best pieces of advice i ever received was to start broad early in life, and pay attention to what you're not only what you like, but also what you're good at. Self awareness is key.
There are no sacred cows.
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So then don't teach anything. Problem solved. Let them figure out life on their own, the little ...-ants don't stand a chance as it is now anyway. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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One of the best pieces of advice i ever received was to start broad early in life
I agree, but...
I guess we just disagree on where the cutoff of "early in life" ends. I think high school kids should still be considered early in life and should have the broad spectrum open to them.
I agree that once you get out into college, you need to specialize your skill/expertise in order to have value.
#gmstrong
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If your dream is to become a doctor and become a pre-med student you pretty much already have to make that decision by 9th grade anyway.
Specialized training IMO is vital. In specialized training... you don't stop learning math, science, etc... you learn it as it pertains to what you're interested in. IE. if your taking construction classes... you learn how to calculate total rise and run in making stairs. Not how to calculate combinations and permutions. In science.. you learn the different types of materials, how they are made, strenghts (wood, metal, adhesives, etc). Not memorizing the periodic table.
Asking a young person of age 14-15 what they find interesting is not something that is beyond them by any means IMO. We're coddling kids too much nowadays in the US. At 14-15 70 years ago kids were taking care of their families already. Now we can't even ask them what they'd like to become?
"I'm a mog. Half man, half dog. I'm my own best friend."
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If your dream is to become a doctor and become a pre-med student you pretty much already have to make that decision by 9th grade anyway.
that is simply not true.
#gmstrong
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Why are we letting a state that ranks 49/50 in high school completion by age 18 set the standards for US textbooks? US DOE
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They literally spent just 1 week in 2nd grade on multiplication tables. Then moved on.
How much time do you want them to spent. Multiplication tables are just memorization, nothing more. Should kids work on the same spelling words for 3 weeks, or should they be expected to learn them in a reasonable time, and move on. Multiplication is one of the most fundamental parts of math, but either you learn 8x8 is 64, or you don't. Could the teacher have found a different way to explain the process that your stepson could have understood, I would hope so, but to hold an entire class back would be wrong. Have you ever had a class where one person just didn't understand, and so the teacher spent the entire time working with that one person, and nobody else learned anything? If you have, I think you understand what's being said.
Finally, The Maskedman has come back, to the true Cleveland Browns Message Board.
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Not sure why it's not true... the foundation for alot of your medical classes down the line begins in 9th grade with Algebra, Physical Science and Biology.
And I'm not saying if a kid doesn't know what they want to become at 14-15, he/she can't take general studies. But to try and fit all kids into one curriculum is just stupid IMO.
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Legend
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Yes and no.
Come on - you don't learn all the multiplication facts (1-12 is what my 3rd grade daughter is doing) in a week.
Heck, my daughter has been doing them for almost 2 months - and I might add - she was the first in her class to pass the "test" for all of them. Between her mom and I, we do homework for close to an hour a night - math, spelling, and her homework sheets.
Sorry - there is no way any kid learns the multiplication facts - 1-12 - in a week - even with heavy parental involvment.
Heck, I didn't learn multiplication until 5th grade. (no, I"m not dumb - that's when our school system taught it - 30 some years ago)
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Not sure why it's not true... the foundation for alot of your medical classes down the line begins in 9th grade with Algebra, Physical Science and Biology.
it's not true because algebra, physical science and biology are all basic courses that must be taken by most students. they are 'broad' concept courses.
the suggestion (at least as I took it) was that you start partitioning off the students directly into their fields at the high school level. so, pre-med would begin at age 14 and if at age 18 you decided you would want to become a doctor you would have to go back to that level (and be set back 4 years from your current peer group).
#gmstrong
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1-12 I would absolutely give a bit longer. I was thinking 1-10. Point being, you either learn it or you don't. That said however, teachers need to be able to teach the same thing several different ways, because I guarantee the you and I will not learn everything the exact same way. It took me finding a teacher that knew how to do that for me to understand that.
Finally, The Maskedman has come back, to the true Cleveland Browns Message Board.
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Legend
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1-12 I would absolutely give a bit longer. I was thinking 1-10. Point being, you either learn it or you don't. That said however, teachers need to be able to teach the same thing several different ways, because I guarantee the you and I will not learn everything the exact same way. It took me finding a teacher that knew how to do that for me to understand that.
If I wrote it down, I remembered it. Hearing something? Heck, I can't remember most of a movie - the words anyway - from one week to the next. All I did was hear it. I"m terrible at quoting movies. I'm terrible when my wife tells me to buy milk - unless I wrote it down somewhere.
Granted. We all learn different ways.
My daughter does extremely well in school - but to learn the multiplication tables from 1-12 - heck, even 1-10 - in 1 weeks time? Crazy.
As for learning in different fashions? I was notorious for studying by making "crib" notes - and leaving them in different places.
High school AND college - when I was taking a test, all I had to do was think "okay, I covered that - it's on the note on my table at home", or "yup, got it, I put all the pertinent info in my pen cap", or "okay, that stuff is on the note I put in the freezer", etc.
Yes, we all learn differently. My way was having cheat sheets - NOT IN THE CLASSROOM mind you.
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Legend
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Legend
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Why are we letting a state that ranks 49/50 in high school completion by age 18 set the standards for US textbooks?
US DOE
I have not the most fainterest clue,...
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Hall of Famer
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They literally spent just 1 week in 2nd grade on multiplication tables. Then moved on.
How much time do you want them to spent. Multiplication tables are just memorization, nothing more. Should kids work on the same spelling words for 3 weeks, or should they be expected to learn them in a reasonable time, and move on. Multiplication is one of the most fundamental parts of math, but either you learn 8x8 is 64, or you don't. Could the teacher have found a different way to explain the process that your stepson could have understood, I would hope so, but to hold an entire class back would be wrong. Have you ever had a class where one person just didn't understand, and so the teacher spent the entire time working with that one person, and nobody else learned anything? If you have, I think you understand what's being said.
This is exactly the problem. Multiplication tables are not memorized, but are an artform all to their own. You begin by memorizing, but the understanding of the interactions of number can be a lifelong experience. I had a friend who was a math major (PhD) who was into number theory.
Very little logical thinking is taught until college. That ability can change your life.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Legend
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Legend
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This is an absolutely true statement.
My Mother "taught" me the tables. It wasn't enough to know the answer, I had to explain to her WHY it was the answer.
Once you understand that concept, you can do ALL double digit multiplications in your head. Schools don't even aspire to memorizing past the 13's,....
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
They literally spent just 1 week in 2nd grade on multiplication tables. Then moved on.
How much time do you want them to spent. Multiplication tables are just memorization, nothing more. Should kids work on the same spelling words for 3 weeks, or should they be expected to learn them in a reasonable time, and move on. Multiplication is one of the most fundamental parts of math, but either you learn 8x8 is 64, or you don't. Could the teacher have found a different way to explain the process that your stepson could have understood, I would hope so, but to hold an entire class back would be wrong. Have you ever had a class where one person just didn't understand, and so the teacher spent the entire time working with that one person, and nobody else learned anything? If you have, I think you understand what's being said.
1 week at his school equaled 5 - 35 min classes. (2:50mins) And that's assuming they went from bell to bell.
And you must have missed this part of my post
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specially after meeting with the teacher and finding out that they would read the chapter they were working on that week, and then split into groups and work on the subject matter themselves while he sat and graded papers.
For the record, I learned my tables in 3rd grade in a catholic school, where I recall spending at least 3 weeks on them til the class had them. Our teacher got us to learn 1-5 the first week, 6-10 the second, and 11 and 12 the final week. Each playing a classroom game on what we learned until then and then taking a quiz.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Legend
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If your dream is to become a doctor and become a pre-med student you pretty much already have to make that decision by 9th grade anyway.
No you don't. You just have to stay on the more academic path through high school that gets you the calc, the trig, the physics, advanced biology, etc.. and not the business, shop and general math types of classes.
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Specialized training IMO is vital. In specialized training... you don't stop learning math, science, etc... you learn it as it pertains to what you're interested in. IE. if your taking construction classes... you learn how to calculate total rise and run in making stairs. Not how to calculate combinations and permutions. In science.. you learn the different types of materials, how they are made, strenghts (wood, metal, adhesives, etc). Not memorizing the periodic table.
I work "in construction"... I've been working in construction for 17 years and make a real nice living doing it... and I never learned to calculate the rise/run of a set of stairs... I did however learn geometry and trig... which taught me to do it. Oh, and I also learned an awful lot about the periodic table because for 3 years as an undergrad I was a chemistry major and wanted to go to medical school... then switched to business where I got my undergrad degree and worked as a stockbroker.. then after realizing I hated that I went back and got a masters in construction management. All I can say is, "Thank God nobody made me pick what I wanted to do at 14.. I still didn't know at 20."
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We're coddling kids too much nowadays in the US. At 14-15 70 years ago kids were taking care of their families already. Now we can't even ask them what they'd like to become?
Of course you can ask them.. and guide them in that direction.. but setting a course that would be hard to change if they changed their mind would be completely insane. Not to mention, if you think the public school system is going to have the resources to develop and teach a different biology class for a person that wants to do research, verses a person who wants to teach biology, verses a kid who wants to go to med school... you are even MORE insane... each high school biology class would have 5 people in it.
yebat' Putin
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This stuff has been going on longer than I've been alive and I'm sure much much further back. Take Thanksgiving for example. What we were all taught in school makes the situation look good but that was after the edits to the history books. Not really a surprise here.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Legend
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This stuff has been going on longer than I've been alive and I'm sure much much further back. Take Thanksgiving for example. What we were all taught in school makes the situation look good but that was after the edits to the history books. Not really a surprise here.
You don't believe the Pilgrims and Indians gather with a giant stuffed turkey, buttered corn, cranberry jelly, stuffing, mashed potatoes, and all the other trimmings at a beautifully decorated table with candles and gourds and drank wine and beer and watched football?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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