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Why do people bring up draft position on players who have been in the league for a year or more like it matters or something.
I often wonder that also.. doesn't matter where a guy is drafted, it's what he's done while in the league.. if he plays lights out,, it doesn't matter how he got into the league.. example, Josh Cribbs.. with the exception of Joe Thomas and to an extent Alex Mack,* he has outplayed every first round pick the browns have made since returning in 1999...
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Really?
It doesn't matter where he's drafted?
Got some OLD news for all of you , it does matter..Any # 1 pick or top ten pick getting paid excessive bucks and busting out hurts any team,especially those at the bottom of the barrel..they cannot afford to waste money in terms of high picks who are EXPECTED to provide immediate impact.
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example, Josh Cribbs.. with the exception of Joe Thomas and to an extent Alex Mack,* he has outplayed every first round pick the browns have made since returning in 1999...
Granted Cribbs is an extreme case, but man does that bring to light the terrible drafting we have done since '99 or what?
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Really?
Yeah, Really.. once they are on the team, it ceases to be a big deal AS IT RELATES TO PERFORMANCE.. which is what we were discussing..
MONEY never entered the discussion because we were talking about performance..
Quote:
Got some OLD news for all of you , it does matter..Any # 1 pick or top ten pick getting paid excessive bucks and busting out hurts any team,especially those at the bottom of the barrel..they cannot afford to waste money in terms of high picks who are EXPECTED to provide immediate impact.
Yeah, we know.. but that's not what we were discussing.. you took that one comment completely out of context....
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Damanshot
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Many of the "terrible Browns draft picks" have done just fine with other teams. Some as starters, others as significant roll players, and some as back ups.
Changing the FO and overhauling the team every 2-3 years is the problem - not the players.
Just off the top of my head here's some guys that we dumped and still did fine:
Crocker
O'Hara
Faine
Lehan
Shaffer
Andre Davis
Andra Davis
Northcutt
Jones
Hamilton-to a degree
Fowler
Thompson
A Henry
GW-starter for years (I know, he's a bust for #3 but at least he started for 6+ years)
Sanders
Rainer
They may not have set the league on fire, but they were able to stay on NFL rosters for several years, typically on teams that had better records than ours.
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Just off the top of my head here's some guys that we dumped and still did fine:
Hamilton-to a degree
Sanders
Rainer
Actually not familiar any of these guys doing anything in the league. Talking Steve Sanders here, I believe he ended up in the arena/CFL didn't he? I would have gone with Rideau over him.
Also where did Hamilton end up? I thought he was on the redskins roster for a season then injured/out of the league. I remember a lot of people being high on him when he was here though. The rest I agree with you.
I'd even throw in Courtney Brown, Kenard Lang, Ben Taylor, Kevin Johnson, Quincy Morgan if we're just talking about guys who continued to play in the league after being let go by the Browns.
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Crocker
O'Hara
Faine
Lehan
Shaffer
Andre Davis
Andra Davis
Northcutt
Jones
Hamilton-to a degree
Fowler
Thompson
A Henry
GW-starter for years (I know, he's a bust for #3 but at least he started for 6+ years)
Sanders
Rainer
Shaffer wasn't our draft pick,,
Rainer is out of football
A. Davis (the LB not receiver) hasn't signed with anyone yet as far as I know
Warren hasn't signed with anyone yet..
Is Hamilton still playing?
Fowler was with Detroit last season,, the stats sheet says he didn't play or start any games last year.. was he injured,,,
Sean Jones wasn't resigned by Philly,, was he picked up by anyone yet?
I don't know,, I'd say that drafting has been the bigger problem.. had any of the previous regimes done well at it, I suggest they'd still be here
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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My namesake signed with Buffalo  , and Jones I believe signed with TB.
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Oh yeah,, I knew about davis, I just forgot,, thanks
Jones signed also... That I didn't know.. again, thanks
Point was, with few exception, our draft picks haven't been all that good...
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Yeah, Really.. once they are on the team, it ceases to be a big deal AS IT RELATES TO PERFORMANCE.. which is what we were discussing..
MONEY never entered the discussion because we were talking about performance..
Sorry Daman the same principal applies and U know it.
From all of the busts the Browns have had U ought to know that the draft status was a key factor in the evaluations and it always will be..
U think anyone cares if a third rounder doesn't perform better than a first rounder???
He isn't expected to..elementary..first rounders ,at least top 5 talents are expected to outperform all others in any draft class.
Let that first round player underperform and bust gets slapped on him quickly...
Whats the FIRST thing mentioned when a player busts?
Where he was drafted..
Then there's Cribbs...
Undrafted...and yet outperformed any # 1 pick the Browns have had since they returned.
Draft status is ALWAYS equated somewhere in the conversation and pay scale always factors in there also.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 03/22/10 04:13 PM.
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Quote:
Just off the top of my head here's some guys that we dumped and still did fine:
Crocker
O'Hara
Faine
Lehan
Shaffer
Andre Davis
Andra Davis
Northcutt
Jones
Hamilton-to a degree
Fowler
Thompson
A Henry
GW-starter for years (I know, he's a bust for #3 but at least he started for 6+ years)
Sanders
Rainer
We need to define fine, methinks.
A lot of those guys are starters on some of the worst teams in the NFL, like Henry and Big Penny.
Sanders, Rainer and Hamilton are all out of the NFL, I'm pretty sure. Faine has serious back problems and I don't even know what happened to Lehan.
Crocker, O'Hara and Andre Davis are really the only still productive, and Davis is a KR which we obviously don't need.
you had a good run Hank.
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Sorry Daman the same principal applies and U know it.
Geesh,, I'm not arguing with you over the set back drafting a loser in the first round can cause.. it does,, I agree/.
But damn man, that is NOT what we were discussing...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Just off the top of my head here's some guys that we dumped and still did fine:
Crocker
O'Hara
Faine
Lehan
Shaffer
Andre Davis
Andra Davis
Northcutt
Jones
Hamilton-to a degree
Fowler
Thompson
A Henry
GW-starter for years (I know, he's a bust for #3 but at least he started for 6+ years)
Sanders
Rainer
We need to define fine, methinks.
A lot of those guys are starters on some of the worst teams in the NFL, like Henry and Big Penny.
Sanders, Rainer and Hamilton are all out of the NFL, I'm pretty sure. Faine has serious back problems and I don't even know what happened to Lehan.
Crocker, O'Hara and Andre Davis are really the only still productive, and Davis is a KR which we obviously don't need.
So you're surprised that a 4th round pick from 1999 (Rainer) is out of the NFL in 2010??  C'mon guys, be a little realistic. Wali played seven years of decent football. That's pretty good for a 4th rounder on a bad team.
Lewis Sanders played nine seasons -most recently with the Patriots. He was a 4th as well.
Sean Jones and Kirk Chambers are still in the league six years later.
If we're drafting players in the 4th & 6th rounds that can stay in the NFL for 6, 7, 8, 9 years - then the drafting wasn't all that bad.
Switching schemes, styles, and HC's, OC's, & DC's constantly made our picks less valuable and never should have been allowed to happen the way it did.
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Also where did Hamilton end up? I thought he was on the redskins roster for a season then injured/out of the league. I remember a lot of people being high on him when he was here though.
I thought he played longer but when I looked him up his injury ended his career in the second year. So you're right, he shouldn't be on the list.
Bodden probably should though.
Of course, some posters might have you believe that Kosar wasn't a good pick because he's not on an active roster in 2010 
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I thought Bodden was udfa, no?
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Bodden came into the league in 2003 and this is our draft from that year,
2003 Cleveland Browns Draft
1 (21, 21) - Jeff Faine, Notre Dame, C
2 (20, 52) - Chaun Thompson, West Texas A&M, LB
3 (20, 84) - Chris Crocker, Marshall, DB
4 (18, 115) - Lee Suggs, Virginia Tech, RB
5 (7, 142) - Ryan Pontbriand, Rice, C
5 (17, 152) - Michael Lehan, Minnesota, DB
6 (22, 195) - Antonio Garay, Boston College, DE
NOTE: No Leigh Boddin .. he must have been a UDFA
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Yeah, Leigh Bodden was a UDFA out of Duquesne.
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Yeah, Leigh Bodden was a UDFA out of Duquesne.
He was everyone's favorite in camp because ClevelandBrowns.com (back then we were on the main site, so a lot of the articles posted came from clevelandbrowns.com Zack whatever) kept putting out nice articles on him and everyone who went to camp said that he was awesome. I think he didn't even go to the combine because no one knew who he was
Bodden was great early in his career, those high ankle sprains slowed him down and I think he lost some of his quickness. But in his first seasons, like the final game of his rookie year when he and Michael Lehan shut down the Bungles, he was very good.
Might have been my favorite player those early years in his career.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 03/22/10 11:48 PM.
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Bodden is back playing at a very high level now for the Patriots.
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Bodden is back playing at a very high level now for the Patriots.
Didn't Bodden just sign a nice new deal with the Pats? 4 year deal I think?
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Browns could get third round pick for Quinn Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on March 24, 2010 1:44 PM ET The Broncos sent two draft picks and fullback Peyton Hillis to Cleveland for Brady Quinn and a free subscription of Men's Health magazine. One pick was a 2011 sixth-rounder, and the other was a 2012 conditional pick. We now know the conditions. The Cleveland Plain-Dealer reports the Browns could receive a pick as high as the third round in 2012 or as low as the sixth round. The compensation will depend on Quinn's playing time over the next two seasons. It's rare to see a draft pick traded that far in the future because decision-makers aren't always confident they will still be employed to use it. That shouldn't be a problem for Mike Holmgren. web page
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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I dont understand why it takes so long to learn the trade parameters in the NFL. Why all the secrecy?
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I dont understand why it takes so long to learn the trade parameters in the NFL. Why all the secrecy?
Maybe it has something to do with them still working out the details.. or maybe physicals. we heard that Quinn passed his right away, did we hear if Hillis even took his yet?
#GMSTRONG
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If we can snag Hillis, a 6th and a 3rd for Quinn, I'd have to say that Hillis has been upgraded from a ham sandwich to a chicken fried steak...
#GMSTRONG
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I'll say,,, 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Go Brady, Go....... 
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If we can snag Hillis, a 6th and a 3rd for Quinn, I'd have to say that Hillis has been upgraded from a ham sandwich to a chicken fried steak...
But the downside?
The only way Quinn nets us a 3rd is most likely if he becomes a success. It's not the successful part that would get to me.................it'd be AkronJoe bringing back the Ham Sandwich comparisons again! 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The only way Quinn nets us a 3rd is most likely if he becomes a success.
or Orton becomes injury prone. it's just based on number of starts apparently, and JaMarcus Russell has a whole bunch of those the last couple years.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
If we can snag Hillis, a 6th and a 3rd for Quinn, I'd have to say that Hillis has been upgraded from a ham sandwich to a chicken fried steak...
But the downside?
The only way Quinn nets us a 3rd is most likely if he becomes a success. It's not the successful part that would get to me.................it'd be AkronJoe bringing back the Ham Sandwich comparisons again!
If he's not a success, then the value we got with Hillis is actual value, not counting what we paid for his over-priced check down self. In the end, we'll get actual value either way. Not the Cinderella story we all had hoped for but it beats a bowling ball from a garage sale.
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I hate the way people are writing off Hillis/ or praising him. Everybody is jumping the gun as they always do We will not know if this is a good trade or a bad trade for a few years, but once again everybody seems to think they know the answers when they really have NO clue and won't for a few years 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I hate the way people are writing off Hillis/ or praising him. Everybody is jumping the gun as they always do We will not know if this is a good trade or a bad trade for a few years, but once again everybody seems to think they know the answers when they really have NO clue and won't for a few years
Bingo. In the end, I'm hoping/thinking Hillis will be a solid contributor. However, I don't think he will be a star on the team.
As for Quinn, glad the era is over and best of luck to him with new squad.
Time to see how it all plays out.
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I hope DA and Quinn succeed, and we prosper from the trade. Then everybody wins 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I hate the way people are writing off Hillis/ or praising him. Everybody is jumping the gun as they always do We will not know if this is a good trade or a bad trade for a few years, but once again everybody seems to think they know the answers when they really have NO clue and won't for a few years
Good post. Period.
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I hate the way people are writing off Hillis/ or praising him. Everybody is jumping the gun as they always do We will not know if this is a good trade or a bad trade for a few years, but once again everybody seems to think they know the answers when they really have NO clue and won't for a few years
Oh c'mon now...
It's a message board where we toss out opinions, which by the way often have nothing at all to do with reality.
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Oh c'mon now...
It's a message board where we toss out opinions, which by the way often have nothing at all to do with reality.
I agree. GM what do you expect us to do, not make predictions on how good of a deal we got? As to what is going to happen in the upcoming season.
Now some people get overly excited and might make a reach opinion (like stating he'll be overly good or overly bad), and may be you mean jump the gun that way.
But yeah, I'm definitely gonna express my opinions about offseason deals and make predictions about all the players involved with my team. Generally I dont care that much to discuss those that aren't.
Oh yeah, I'm hoping Hillis to have a good year for the Browns, I'm not sure how well he'll do, but I think we got a good deal for Quinn because I don't think he's got the skills to be a starting NFL QB and we got rid of a possible major distraction. We needed the sinking ship that was the Brady Quinn saga to end.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 03/24/10 10:11 PM.
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it'd be AkronJoe bringing back the Ham Sandwich comparisons again!
LOL But, if Hillis is successful and we get someone decent when we pick,, then it can't be considered a ham sandwich
#GMSTRONG
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I hate the way people are writing off Hillis/ or praising him. Everybody is jumping the gun as they always do We will not know if this is a good trade or a bad trade for a few years, but once again everybody seems to think they know the answers when they really have NO clue and won't for a few years
Buzzkill
#GMSTRONG
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LOL But, if Hillis is successful and we get someone decent when we pick,, then it can't be considered a ham sandwich
would it be upgraded to a ham & swiss with stadium mustard? (now that there is a good sandwhich)
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Really?
It doesn't matter where he's drafted?
Got some OLD news for all of you , it does matter..Any # 1 pick or top ten pick getting paid excessive bucks and busting out hurts any team,especially those at the bottom of the barrel..they cannot afford to waste money in terms of high picks who are EXPECTED to provide immediate impact.
I agree totally but I once saw when I was a kid in the sixties,( before they paid rookies far more than many veterans) where only competence mattered. Now with the ridiculous rookie salaries, washouts set a team back for years. look at all thoses wasted WRs for detriot out the $$$$ and the position still stunk. Look at hhow we kept waiting for Couch to turn some corner, as if he were going to blossom from a pumkin into a fine coach overnight.
With a salary cap on rookie pay only one thing would matter, can you cut the mustard. greedy lawyer player agents have helped RUIN the game. A culture of envy as rookies who accomplished nothing far outstipped the pay of lower drafted rookies who had accomplised something on the field( say, hmm Josh Cribbs) and veterans all mad because of all the $$$. I will add a quote from a Jet player on the pro football talk website when it was reported some players were disgusted a "guy who had done nuthin"( Vernon Goldsten) was getting $$$$$$$, and the Jets cut Thomas Jones, a VERY popular player to save $$$$....but then they sign washed up LT...go figure and play hardball with Leon Washington.
It matters very much where you are drafted, for the teams, for the NFL, for the game, it should not matter so much what highlight reel a guy has in college VS what he does in the Big league, but right now it matters the world. And the underwear olympics is an event of the insane ridiculous. I remember a Chuck Noll quote" sometimes your best players don't look like it in the shower" and another Quote on Courney brown " looks like Tarzan plays like Jane".
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If we can snag Hillis, a 6th and a 3rd for Quinn, I'd have to say that Hillis has been upgraded from a ham sandwich to a chicken fried steak...
I disagree.
A chicken fried steak is not an upgrade over a ham sandwich.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brady Quinn traded to Denver Part
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