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Looks pretty good. If he can catch, block, and lower a shoulder to break the first tackle, that's pretty much what you are looking for to finish out the RB corps.
Hopefully Davis will return healthy as well, that group should be a strength.
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Not to mention that the folks in Denver were in love with Hillis.
I must agree where do you make this stuff up as Denver is estatic they traded their Ham sandwich for Quinn. I also agree that to call anyone a Quinnbot that does not agree is pretty funny but in logic that is called the straw dog tactic.
Toot your horn at the end of the season when Jake the Mistake implodes and Quinn starts. I really really hope You are right and we got a steal in this trade, but in my mind we got three beans and they got the cow, Jack. 
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I must agree where do you make this stuff up as Denver is estatic they traded their Ham sandwich for Quinn.
Oh, so you don't think trading Qunn for Hillis and a couple of picks was a good thing... In that case, I retract my apology 
We really need a sarcasm graemlin on this board..
Joe if you want to know where I got this info, I'll tell you, I went to the Broncos message board and READ... Something you may want to consider doing before you pop off about how much they didn't think of Hillis.. and they feel about getting Quinn...
I'd link to it, but I don't believe we are allowed to do that. However, if you use your noodle a little, go to the Broncos board and look for headers relating to Quinn, you will get your fill of information..
They loved Hillis out there,, Kinda like the way we feel about Vickers here. they couldn't understand McDaniels not using him more.. as for Quinn,, there are a few that seem to feel as if Quinn is thier savior.. most think he's a waste of time..
I don't know which group is right, I've made my stand that I hoped Quinn would work out here, but he didn't and , at least for me, it's time to just move on.. You may want to consider a similar approach.. But, that's up to you.
Oh,, one last thing,,, CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE USE OF PARAGRAPHS...
You are driving me nuts with these long, run on sentences.... my eyes hurt reading your posts
#GMSTRONG
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I am glad we got any player in return for Brady Quinn.
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Denver is estatic they traded their Ham sandwich for Quinn.
Can you use a different term. You keep saying Ham Sandwich over and over. Frankly it's making me a little hungry and I'm trying to lose some weight. Do you have stock in pork futures?
Last edited by Jester; 03/19/10 03:59 PM.
The difference between Jesus and religion
Religion mocks you for having dirty feet
Jesus gets down on his knees and washes them
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They traded their ham sandwich for our turkey sandwich. At least we also got some draft picks.
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Quote:
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Not to mention that the folks in Denver were in love with Hillis.
I must agree where do you make this stuff up as Denver is estatic they traded their Ham sandwich for Quinn. I also agree that to call anyone a Quinnbot that does not agree is pretty funny but in logic that is called the straw dog tactic.
Toot your horn at the end of the season when Jake the Mistake implodes and Quinn starts. I really really hope You are right and we got a steal in this trade, but in my mind we got three beans and they got the cow, Jack.
A cow would be able to throw a 10 yard out better than Quinn.
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They loved Hillis out there,, Kinda like the way we feel about Vickers here.
Im suprised on how many Browns fans dont think the FB is an important part of this offense and thought the signing of Hillis meant that Vickers is a goner.
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Im suprised on how many Browns fans dont think the FB is an important part of this offense and thought the signing of Hillis meant that Vickers is a goner.
On one hand, I get it.. they think that by getting Hillis, we have eliminated the need for Vickers.. it's a reasonable thought process I guess.. except I think they plan on using him as more of a big back..
Someone else said it,, Vickers opens the hole, Hillis goes through it and takes a LB with him for a nice gainer.....
I kinda like that thought...
I hope Vickers will be here for many years to come..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I don't really get the thought process. Why would any team in the NFL cut an elite player at their position when he is still young and has years ahead of him? If he were 33 I would see the argument for getting rid of him a little easier, but he's 26 years old. Very, very, very few top tier running games do it without having an excellent fullback. Barry Sanders didn't have one but he was Barry freaking Sanders. Imagine if he did have one? The thing that puzzles me even more beyond all that is that the guy absolutely lives for the opportunity to knock mouthy linebackers on their backs. With as many as we've had in our division over the years you'd think this guy would be a local hero. But half the board thinks we need to get rid of him? 
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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I don't think anyone wants to get rid of him.
Before Mangini said he's sees Hillis as a running back I thought Vickers would be traded. I didn't think he should be traded. I think that's probably the way the rest of the board feels. Anyone who wants him gone must be crazy.
Now if someone were to sign him to an offer sheet I would say we shouldn't accept it as we would get a 2nd round pick. But other than that I think he should stay and blast some holes open for Hillis.
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There were quite a few people in the Quinn thread who were saying just that. Thats actually where I got my shiny new sig from 
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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If your ultimate goal in the draft is to take BPA (and most solidly-built teams do use that philosophy), then the reverse logic should hold true, as well:
If you already have the BPA on your roster, you use him on the field... not as a trading card. Lawrence Vickers is one of the top 5 BPA's at his position in the entire NFL... and he's already here. "Dance with the one what brung ya," I always say...
If your game plan requires the services of a real-life badass FB, you don't jettison someone like LV just because you picked up a versatile back in a trade. You find a way to use them both.
A team that is as talent-deprived as the Browns simply can't afford to dump one of its most effective, consistent players (in his prime production years, no less), no matter what position he plays. You build your team with strong players who bring game every time they hit the field.
I wouldn't take any pick for Vickers at this point... even a 1st rounder. Why? Because picks are unproven, and have value in potential only. Lawrence Vickers is already producing at a high level, with results you can depend upon. I'll take a proven commodity over a "prospect" every day and twice on Sundays.
If Holmy and Hecky have 4 brain cells between them, Lawrence Vickers ain't goin' nowhere except back onto the field... wearing O&B.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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It appears to me that Vickers is a Mangini type player, and given that it seems like Holmgren and Heckert appear to consult with Mangini before moving a player out, I would guess that Vickers will be here next year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wouldn't take any pick for Vickers at this point... even a 1st rounder. Why? Because picks are unproven, and have value in potential only
Gotta say I completely dissagree with you here. If we could get a 1st round pick for Lawerence Vickers, I would be all for it. Unfortunately, no one will give us one for our super star full back.
That's the thing, full back is a position that you can fill later in the draft. Nothing against Vickers, I love the guy, but a 1st round pick is very valuable.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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j/c
I see Hillis as a LaRon McClain/Mike Alstott type hybrid FB/HB. The difference is he has better hands than either one of those so I'm cautiously optimistic that he'll be a success here.
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Vickers is my favorite player but if I were the GM of the browns I would trade him for a first rounder. I love the guy but thats too much to pass up.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Nothing against Vickers, I love the guy, but a 1st round pick is very valuable.
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Vickers is my favorite player but if I were the GM of the browns I would trade him for a first rounder. I love the guy but thats too much to pass up.
"A bird in the hand," Dawgs... that's all I'm sayin.'
Each to his own, where this disagreement is concerned. Each side has its merits, for sure. All I'm really saying is this:
Lawrence Vickers was a Browns draftee who actually made something of himself. A home-grown product that WE grew. Do you know how HUGE that really is? Given our history of draft picks? His type has been exceedingly rare on our team since 1999... and he's exactly the kind of player knowlegeable fans have been clamoring for- for years. We've all bitched about the lack of a Browns 'culture' and 'team identity'... and yet, many of us are more than content to trade away a hard-earned, home-grown asset for a "big fat question mark"... so long as "Mr. ?" has a 1st-round label attached to his name. Now, mind you... "Mr. ?" hasn't yet played a down of professional football. He could be Julian Peterson. He could also be Brady Quinn.
So.... do you build upon someone who's shown the desire (and ability) to be a cornerstone of your new team identity, or do you treat him like a 2-dimensional avatar on the latest Madden incarnation... and trade him away, for the crapshoot-like chance at landing the potential "next big thing?"
Seeing it from this angle, it's not quite so clear-cut, is it?
If you're a GM, you HAVE to look at things like this before you pull the trigger on a trade.
My bottom line: LV is still going to be decent trade bait in 2 years. Keep him, use him, let him help you redefine what Cleveland Browns players are, then trade him when he's made his mark upon your organiization.
I'd rather take LV for a conditional low-round pick in 2013 than trade him for a 1st this year. I want continued production from my own product, thank you... but that's just how I roll. Your mileage may vary... and that's OK, too.
Right now, I believe Lawrence Vickers is more valuable to us as a player than he is as 'trade bait'...
...but that's because I'm from the Olde Schoole "Grow You Own" mentality.
jmh.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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IMO, Vickers is the 3rd best player on this team. Right behind 1) Thomas and 2) Cribbs. Im not saying hes the 3rd most important player on this team because he does play a position that doesnt see the field every down that his squad is out there.
I was hoping he would get franchised because it wouldnt cost much to franchise a FB and no other FA was worth a franchise tag. Fortunately for the Browns, because there is no bargaining agreement, Vickers became restricted and they can retain him for even cheaper. Another team would have to pay $3 million+ for management not to match an offer. And with no cap, they still might match it because adding Hillis only gives this team a ton of options with Vickers, Hillis, Harrison, and Davis. Not to mention talks of having Wallace and Cribbs in the backfield at the same time. What excites me about Wallace is if he can be used in a Percy Harvin role, with less WR routes, but Im not sure if his speed compares.
I hope management would just give him a longer deal but they could just franchise him next year and keep him for like $2 million.
As far as Ballpeen saying that about the FB position, I would put money that Holmgren, Mangini, Heckert, heck even Belicheck, would disagree with that statement. He might not admit to it but that statement is coming from the same poster that said he made fun of a poor man for trying to squeegee his window.
In that game Harrison had like 260 yards. He easily had those yards because of the blocks being made by Vickers. Every big run, Vickers was sealing off LBs. I also think Harrison left yards on the field in the first half because one play he went down with an ankle tackle and Vickers was in his grill.
IMO, Vickers, Cribbs and Thomas should be 3 of the 4 captains. Thats if Vickers is here next year. But as a draft pick, which is one of the top 3 most valued draft picks since 99 not counting UDFAs (Thomas, Wright), he has the familiarity with his teammates, city, and the importance of beating Pittsburgh to be a captain.
Some call Vickers a dime a dozen FB. I dont think the Browns would have been 8th in rushing offense last year if they had just any dime a dozen FB. Especially with St. Claire and Womack on the right side; an aging Lewis; Canadian footballer Jennings; Davis was hurt most of the year; and Harrison was a player that couldnt find the field for Crennel/Chud and Mangini/Daboll until they had no other options. Im guessing that Harrison isnt a great practice player because Crennel/Chud would design plays for him, he would get 8 yards a carry (Denver game 08-09) then wouldnt run the rest of the game. Crennel said that was because thats all they designed for him. I always wondered why that regime needed to design plays for him and not just let him run any old play. Cribbs and the wildcat was another reason they were 8th in rushing offense but Vickers was also in the backfield with Cribbs. The Browns being 8th in rushing last year is no small feat when you consider that the passing offense was ranked sooo bad (32) that they brought an 8th rushing offense down to a 32 ranked total offense. Defenses werent even worried about the pass and they still ran like that. They also did better when Fraley was in the lineup. Yeah, maybe he made too much for a backup o-lineman but it was an uncapped year, he was the best backup and with this teams injury history he would have eventually started. Yeah they got Pashos but they should have kept Fraley and cut Womack. Fraley can play all 3 interior positions and has experiance as a blocking TE.
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j/k
Adding a player with Hillis potential doesnt automatically mean we trade another good players, (Vickers) we Browns fans need to realize were allowed a couple very good payers at the same position, I know hasnt been done in the past, but it's allowed in this leauge. All this means is that now our coachs have to do what thier paid for, find a way to utilize them both during a game.
This dosent mean JH will see less, and while were at it, I liked what Mangini did with JH, Mangini wouldnt play him full time until he proved he deserved it in practice, nothing should be a given in this leauge, earn it get pushed beyond your ability, mangini saw something in JH he wasnt pushing it or a quit he didnt want to end up going onto the field, and seriosly, I saw many times our RB going down on the first hit, no extra push or effort, last 5 games it wasnt thier our RB's JH ran alot harder & waited for blocks to develop instead of running past his blockers and hey it worked, good for Manginithats coaching, players learn it or dont play.
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we Browns fans need to realize were allowed a couple very good payers at the same position,
Ok,, Vickers is a FB.. Hillis is listed as a FB,, but I get the feeling that he's not going to be used as a typical FB.. Vickers will.. So does that mean we don't have two good guys at one position?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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hillis excells in areas vickers is deficient in, and vice versa. mcclain was a HB before rice hit the field, and was moved back to FB. hillis is basically an oversized HB with good hands, vickers is a pure FB. they fill 2 different roles and should be utilized differently.
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your probebly right, but I was pointing out more on the side of some that said we got Hillis "were gonna trade Vickers now" and got upset over it, just wanted to make my .02 cent point
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He isn't really a fullback. From OBR Excerpt from PC on the 15th. Quote:
Eric Mangini
(On Peyton Hillis)- “I like Hillis as a tailback. Hillis had 126 yards against us in New York. He had a string of three or four weeks there, before he got hurt late in the season, this was in I think ’08. He had been very productive as a tailback and that’s what he played in college and he got behind two really good draft picks and kind of got lost in the shuffle there. He’s a physical guy. He’s tough with the football in his hands. You could use him as the tailback and (Lawrence) Vickers as the fullback and you get a lot bigger. You could use him as a fullback with Jerome (Harrison) and both of those guys are really effective catching the ball and even running with the ball, you can give the fullback the ball, not that we gave Lawrence a few bones this year. You can mix him in a lot of different places. He’s returned some kicks. He’s played on special teams. He’s done a lot of good things in a young career. In terms of where we will use him, I’m not sure, but it adds versatility when you try to decide on the 45-man roster to have a fullback that can play tailback and can also do something on (special) teams.”
A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.
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#gmstrong
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He’s a physical guy. He’s tough with the football in his hands. You could use him as the tailback and (Lawrence) Vickers as the fullback and you get a lot bigger. You could use him as a fullback with Jerome (Harrison) and both of those guys are really effective catching the ball and even running with the ball, you can give the fullback the ball, not that we gave Lawrence a few bones this year. You can mix him in a lot of different places. He’s returned some kicks. He’s played on special teams.
Sounds just like another back we got from them several years ago, and he worked out pretty well for us.
"Ham Sandwich" indeed................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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One things for sure, we'll use this ham sandwich more than we would have used that quiche we traded him for.
#GMSTRONG
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"Quiche" is a perfect word, considering that picture of him wearing a polo and grabbing another man's dork. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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One things for sure, we'll use this ham sandwich more than we would have used that quiche we traded him for.
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Excellent post Clem, I agree totally you make best use of your players and not so much in some quasi loyalty test( mangini men). Vickers is an excellent player and for two games we left him on the field as Quinns bodyguard vs blitzers. the result showed what quinn could do with those extra seconds vs Detroit and SD, then mysteriously that strategy seemed to almost just dissolve from whence it came.
But using BPA as trading cards is what mangenious does, we dump Winslow and Edwards for chump change and leave the QBs with the Worst WR corp in football.
Dumping players for nothing ( Quinn and Anderson) continues this trend. Top football writers seem to agree the Browns got bamboozled but I am sure you CAN go and find some Denver fans upset over the loss of a Backup fullback that had 60yards rushing FOR THE SEASON. I am so glad trolling the Denver board you found some fans that agree with your sage viewpoint, and suggesting I try to do the same is well, a waste of time. My opinions are mine and I do not need agreement from you or Denver fans, that is the beauty of an opinion, it is a personal thing, but i can understand you needing some quasi made up crowd to butress yours.
Clem I again agree that Vickers is a top back, but who knows who else is available at the Browns garage sale. Line up as many yahoos as you want, we will find next season the Quinn for a third string fb who got the better deal. I am sure Denver will give Quinn every opportunity to showcase his stuff and if we continue our mind numbing stupidity, I expect Vickers to be traded to make the Hillis trade look better. Soon Mangini will be another EX-Browns head Coach if he continues such sagacity.
Again I hope I am 100% wrong on this. I hope Hillis turns out to be a fantastic pick up, and I hope the faults the King of Queens saw in Quinn were accurate. I will add i want the best for Quinn but what i really want is this team to get off stuck on stupid with the way they make trades. And Clemdog, I too hope Vickers is going nowhere, but with the way we dealt Winslow, Edwards and Quinn, and the jets garbage for a franchise QB, there is nobody safe... Shawn Rogers is probably next.
maybe we get a tuna melt for him.
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I expect Vickers to be traded to make the Hillis trade look better.
Just one simple question....... you can choose to answer or not:
In your opinion, is Area51 closer to a video-game or a documentary? 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You are right. The knowledgeable fans in Denver were really excited in 2008 to see Hillis get his chance. Not only was he a crowd favorite, he was recognized by some of his offensive linemen for his contributions. They said that if Hillis had not gotten hurt in week 14 (torn hamstring), the Broncos would have been in the playoffs. Since Mangini has seen Hillis at work against the Jets, I don't thinik it was an afterthought to add him to the deal for Quinn.
I won;t mention any names, but there are some "rookie" posters on this board who sound just like the Josh McDaniels disciples on the Denver boards. They are against EVERYTHING except what McD tells them is ok.
Hillis is a good guy! Even though he was shafted in 2009 by McD, he never made any negative statements in the locker room or the community against the coaches. But he was always ready when they did call on him.
I could never be a coach for the Broncos -- I couldn't fail the intelligence test to qualify.
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Hey Newdawg,, welcome.
When we first traded Quinn to Denver, I hoped we could have gotten more. But as I have been trying to explain to Akronjoe,, we got what we got.
I'm positive that if someone offered more for Quinn, we'd have taken it.
The thing is, Hillis should fit nicely here with Vickers, Harrison, Davis and Jennings.. (one or two will probably be gone, but I don't know which)
I was watching the Denver message boards after the trade,, just kinda wanted to see what the fans out there thought of Hillis and how they felt about giving him up for Quinn.
There were a few guys that thought Quinn was the next coming of Elway.. Fair enough I guess..
But it seemed to me that most thought it was a dumb trade but that since McDaniels wasn't using Hillis, might as well take a flyer on Quinn...
Then there was a ton of folks that thoiught Quinn was a complete waste..
Quinn seems to be a classy kid (yeah, we've all heard the rumors of rudeness and bad locker room presence but I'm not sure they are 100% accurate) Smart and athletic. I really do wish him well.
But I think that if a guy like Holmgren didn't keep him, that says a lot.
No way does Holmgren let Quinn out of town if he thought there was even a chance that he could do well as the Browns QB.. No way.. Team Friendly contract, solid fan following... if Holmgren felt there was a chance, he'd be a damn fool to let him get out of town for almost any trade..
I guess that leaves the last part to debate,, Does holmgren know what he's doing?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Joined: Sep 2006
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That sounds like what Gene Hickerson used to do for Jim Brown back in the day.
If Vickers can do that anybody following can make yardage
Last edited by Groza76; 03/22/10 11:27 AM.
Groza76
Go Browns, WIN or lose, forever!
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 626
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 626 |
I kind of like this as a nickname. Ham Sandwich Hillis.
"The Ham Sandwich plants Ray Lewis on his back with a vicious block on the touchdown run."
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 56
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 56 |
Thanks for the welcome.
Ham sandwich isn't too bad for a Arkansas Hawg. One of the guys on the Broncos board referred to him as Rhino (complimentary of the way he runs).
One of the Denver Post writers wrote a column, "Hillis' Achievements Did Not Live Up to His Following" (or something like that). It stayed up about two days and he had about 200 hits, most of them eating him alive. It disappeared.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,529
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,529 |
You're welcome,,
The did seem to like the guy out there.. what can I say.... I think we'll like him here...Very much..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I agree, I think Hillis is going to come in here and knock some heads off..Even if he is a Ham Sandwich! This is the type of player we here in Cleveland love and appreciate. This team is starting to collect a nice group of Football Players..Guys that love the game and appreciate being at this level and work their arses off. The guy loves to hit people and runs like a Fast Mike Alstott. Remeber what type of Players Mangini specified he liked and wanted..they are starting to show up and I think the Chemistry will start to show much like the Patriots of the earlier years, no big names just good football players that fed off each other and worked together with a common team goal.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,171
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,171 |
Quote:
I think the Chemistry will start to show much like the Patriots of the earlier years, no big names just good football players that fed off each other and worked together with a common team goal.
You must have been reading my mind, LOYAL. I've been thinking the same thing myself. Football fans have notoriously short memories, and it's hard for them to remember a time when the Patriots weren't loaded with stars. What they forget is that they became stars because of the team's success- not the other way around. Except for Pats fans and a handful of football wonks, NOBODY knew who Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, and Willie McGinnest were until the Pats started their little dynastic run.
It's high time the Browns laid the groundwork for a culture of anonymous team effort and started a little run of their own. Once the foundation is laid, we'll find our own superstars right here... with solid drafting, good coaching and an "all oars pulling together" philosophy.
Hillis is a solid addition for just such an undertaking.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
We will see a difference going forward..It doesn't seem so dirty around here anymore or with this team..like fresh air! After this draft, people will really be jacked up at the direction of this team! As much as I like Holmgren and..YES MANGINI too..I think Heckert and the three of them will build a special team here!
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mark it down- Hillis will be GOOD
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