DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum PFW says Savage's status / role up in the air...

Now.. first off, don't shoot the messenger.. I read it and hemmed and hawed for the longest time before posting this. I could as easily see this as being equally true and untrue. If they do make a change in Opie's responsibilities.. I hope it's a change for the good and not another bad decision.
linker


Savage?s status again in flux as Browns endure another disappointing season


For a fourth straight season, the Browns are well off the pace in the AFC playoff hunt. And there is speculation in league circles that major changes could be coming.

In the words of one league source, owner Randy Lerner is ?bouncing off the walls with the problems they are having.? There are whispers that Lerner isn?t pleased with the performance of general manager Phil Savage, who?s in his second season with the club. The way we hear it, Lerner is, at the least, looking into hiring someone who can assist Savage with administrative duties, and more full-scale changes cannot be ruled out.

What?s more, we?re hearing that Savage doesn?t like those administrative aspects of his job. Savage is known throughout the league as a tireless worker who relishes scouting collegiate players, and that is the role he prefers.

?Savage doesn?t want to be a GM,? said one longtime personnel evaluator. ?He just wants to evaluate. He took a GM job but doesn?t want to be a GM. ? The lesson that should be learned is that college scouts who have not been in an office environment need to be evaluated more carefully. Can they handle administrative work? Are they organized? Do they get along with people? On the road, you don?t have to deal with office politics. Being able to handle it is a part of being a GM, and the fact of the matter is, a lot of college (evaluators) are not ready for it.?

The Browns did not respond to interview requests for Lerner and Savage.

Savage was thought to be in danger of losing his job late last season, when then-team president John Collins attempted to push him out. But Lerner chose to keep Savage, and Collins resigned.

However, the spotlight is again on Savage?s job security.

Lerner won?t hesitate to make a bold move or spend a significant amount of money if he thinks it will help the team. Lerner is believed to have given former head coach Butch Davis a generous financial settlement when Davis resigned under pressure in November 2004. Also, Lerner?s deep pockets allowed the Browns to make a flurry of high-profile free-agent signings before this season.

But with the Browns again stuck in last place, there?s a sense Lerner is itching to make changes. However, the scout points out that ?you have to hire the right people and give them time to do their jobs. When you see what (Saints head coach) Sean Payton is doing, it?s difficult to be patient. It can be done, but the Saints are the exception, not the rule.?

Also from PFW..

web page

Should defensive coordinator Todd Grantham take the head-coaching job at Michigan State, he will be expected to finish out the season with the Browns, head coach Romeo Crennel indicated last week. Grantham, a Spartans assistant from 1996 to ?98, is reportedly one of the top candidates for the job. Grantham has drawn praise for his work with the Browns? defense, which has been surprisingly strong vs. the pass in spite of a string of injuries at cornerback. The Browns? run defense remains a trouble spot, and the pass rush leaves something to be desired. Nevertheless, league insiders remain impressed with Cleveland?s defense, and Grantham ? a devotee of the 3-4 scheme ? has a bright future, whether it is in the collegiate or professional ranks. Were Grantham to leave, DB coach Mel Tucker would likely be a candidate to replace him in 2007

[color:"white"]I for one have very mixed feelings about this, but most of them are good.

Where I come from, if a good employee is having issues with part of his job, making a change for the better isn't indicitive of a real problem. If Savage, who's known to be a very good personnel man, is having issues with some of the things he agreed to do when he was hired, if I'm happy with the things he's doing right, I'll make an adjustment and keep on trucking without a second thought.

I'd rather Savage be relieved of some of his administrative work if it means keeping up with the personnel side of things.

So the REAL question is whether or not he's doing that part of his job well. I had thought that letting Bryant go was a mistake, but having him pulled over drunk and speeding over 100 in a Lambo makes me feel a little foolish. I think that Shaffer, even though he's slightly better than Shelton, was a very poor decision, as he's looked really bad in all the games I've seen. Still, Wimbley is our best defensive player and he doesn't even understand the position yet. Edwards is showing the wares, even though he's acting like a little wussie, and guys like Ted and Willie are paying off, even though they aren't the same guys they were in the past. He gave Bodden a new deal and he's clearly worth it, and even though Chester Taylor was his first choice, Droughns has been a great trade.

All in all, I think Savage has done a good job with what he's had to work with.[/color]

If Savage need some administrative help, then he should get it.

Part of the job of being a good manager is to find people that you can delegate responsibility to... If Savage would want to focus on player development, which is generally recognized as being his area of expertise then I have no problem with that.

I think he works well as the voice of the front office for the Browns.

If you hit the link, the first thing you see is the title of the column

The Way We Hear It!

Is Roger Brown writing this article under a different name <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

I don't have the article, but it's posted on here somewhere. Lerner and Savage held a press conference recently. Yeah, Lerners not happy, but his comments lead me to believe that both Savage and RAC are safe from any changes this year anyway. He appeared to be thinking that the team is heading in the right direction..

So, tell me, How do reporters get this crap,,, what, do they sit there in bed just taking drugs and thinking stuff up? Geez

First off - I agree w/ almost everything. As long as Savage is still on the talent side and the changes made are to everyone's agreement - I don't think change is a bad thing. This isn't the first report about Savage having problems on the admin side - and generally where there's smoke, there's at least a little flame.


I don't want to pull the thread off topic entirely, but I'm interested in one answer. (seems like 90% of my responses are to you these days - but you talk so darn much and put your opinion out there so much, I guess that's expected... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm all for the argument that Shaffer may not be the long term answer at LT, although I think the interior line is WAY more critical - but you don't say that - you say Shaffer was a "bad decision". Would you have resigned Shelton or what? Just curious what the "better decision" would have been.

I have mixed feelings about these two articles. For one thing, I wonder how true it is. There's probably some truth to the reports, but I would imagine that it's also highly speculative.

The second thought I have on this is I really don't feel that Savage has done a very good job. You all know how I feel about him neglecting the OL and DL in the draft. You all know I hated the Edwards pick and the Perkins pick. I wasn't fond of his first draft at all. I also think he has made some dumb trades and threw money at the wrong people in free agency. I think he put his OC in a terrible spot, because the offense was not ready to compete this year. Firing the OC was not going to solve the offensive problems, but it appeased the fans and media. I have zero respect for that type of thinking.

The third thought I have is that although I don't think Savage has done a very good job, I don't want him fired and replaced w/someone else. I really do believe in continuity and I don't think any of these guys are dumb.

Finally, it has been suggested a couple of times now that Savage needs help. If this is indeed true, I wonder if he is willing to accept that help. I think he balked at that suggestion last year. How he handles this should be interesting........that is, if there is any truth to the rumor. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

IIRC, in the 2005 draft, there weren't any real slam-dunkers for OL. And we needed a wideout so he went with Edwards. Fair enough.
However, I was mad he didn't get a OL in the 3-4 round area in '05.

Now, this year's draft he went front 7 in Rd. 1-2 , I wasn't going to argue with that, either.

Statements he made to the media this week suggests he's going to address the lines early in next April's draft - I expect him to do precisely that. I will be extremely pissed off if he doesn't.

If there's a shutdown corner in round 1, depending where we pick), OK... but he'd better follow that up with linemen after linemen. And then another one.

As far as freen agency, he's been iffy.

Punter: he solved that problem with Zastudil.
OL: He got LeCharles (and we known what happened there)

Shaffer: Maybe over-priced? Sure, but he doesn't seem to be awful.
Baxter: I injuries aside, maybe slightly overpaid, but I think he was solid. It's hard to say, he's been hurt so much.

Druz & Coleman: Probably filled immediate needs at the time, but the OL experts here (and I ain't one) seem to suggest they have been less-than-stellar.

Well, not SUGGEST, but DECLARE ADAMANTLY. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Druz and coleman where better then what we had. that's interesting to say the least.

With the way the media has been lately (hell, how they've always been), I'll take this all with a grain of salt and give it a "I'll believe it when I see it."

I couldn't agree with Toad more. There are so many parts of my job that I don't like. I wish I had a boss like Lerner. Hire someone to do all the crap that I hate. Doesn't sound to me like anyone is about to be let go. I'm sure Lerner had higher expectations then the result he's seeing. Imagine shelling out the kind of money he has and your team is 3-7. I wouldn't be too happy either. But it's no time to change the course as it's only Savage and Crennel's second year.

[color:"white"]

Hehehe...........Yeah, as much as I post, 90% of all replies are bound to be to me <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

First, I'm obligated to say that it's a hindsight call on my part. It's very easy for me to look back and say it wasn't a good signing. Some talking heads might say "if you didn't say it was a bad signing when it happened, don't pretend to talk negative about it now." The problem there is that we're evaluating Savage's decision. The only way to do that is to look at the result, and so far, the result has been very poor for a guy who signed a $36 million dollar contract. (If it's not exactly $36, it's somewhere in there).

So.........Would I have resigned Shelton? No freakin' way. I thought bringing him here to play tackle was a huge mistake to begin with. That proved to be true, and he's been a turd down in Miami as well.

What I wanted, and I said this in the offseason, was for us to trade for Wayne Gandy of the Saints, who was displaced when they moved Jamal Brown from right tackle to left. This is his 13th year, but he's played extremely well over the past few seasons and still has something left in the tank. The offer given to Shelton indicated that he was a short-term answer, meaning Savage had his eye on left tackles somewhere else. So if Shaffer is supposed to be the longterm answer at left tackle, it appears to be a mistake. The quotes were that he was a young player who was only going to get better. So far, he's appeared slow, lacking leverage and power, and has been pushed around pretty badly so far this year. In the meantime, Gandy has played better than that. The Saints traded a late round draft pick and Safety Bryan Scott to get him.

That's the direction I would have gone in.

Now, the troubling part about Shaffer is the size of the deal, not the decision to sign him. If he moves to right tackle and becomes adequate, then we overpaid in order to bring stability to the line. Ok, I get that. Such is the price for fixing holes through free agency. However, the bottom line to this is that he's not playing very well, so the move, as it stands right now, was a poor one.

You're also correct when you say the interior of our line is a more critical fix. At least I believe that's what you meant.

Going further back, I was a huge Jamal Brown pimp last season. What I really wanted was a trade down to get him. However, there's no way in Hell that I can criticize Savage for not trading down. There's just no way of suggesting that he had a partner but didn't want to make the deal.

Give Shaffer a shorter contract or plan on moving him, but he's not our left tackle of the future. [/color]

We do know how U feel..that isn't a mystery <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I think Savage balked at help BECAUSE of what was going down with Collins..
I think Phil wants to have someone handle some of thew duties that he feels are a BURDEN to him..in that case I'm all for it..

If the opinion's on the GM's are divided,then doesn't that indicate what kind of job he has done?
Kinda like the old adage, "if you have 2 qbs,then you don't have 1 good qb"
What stands out about Savage is that he still hasn't been to build even a average NFL o-line.
Now he decides to make the o-line a priority in the 2007 Draft. He should have had that philsophy in his 1st draft with the Browns.
Trading down would have made more sense than selecting a WR#3 overall and getting 2 #1's or a a 1 and another #2.
He could have had the chance to land a Jamal Brown or Logan Mankins.
Free agent LT's have not panned out for the Browns. Espeically when you sign 2nd and 3rd rate ones at that.
Joe Andruzzi and Cosey Coleman were available for a reason. And just because you played for a Super Bowl team doesn't make you a differance maker.
How would Steve Hutchinson look in a Brown instead of Coleman or Andruzzi?
You get what you pay...you pay for junk you get junk..Guys like Coleman and Andruzzi weren't going to get magically get better because they became Browns.
Another issue with Savage is the way he has just thrown away mid RD draft picks. A 4th RD pick for Trent Dilfer..give me a break.
You can find guys like Brandon Jacobs,Eric Ghiaciuc and Marion Barber in the 4th RD...

[color:"white"]"And there is speculation in league circles that major changes could be coming."

[color:"orange"]Isn't this their 2nd article regarding the same subject matter???

[color:"white"]"What?s more, we?re hearing that Savage doesn?t like those administrative aspects of his job."

"The way we hear it, Lerner is, at the least, looking into hiring someone who can assist Savage with administrative duties"

[color:"orange"]Of course pending on the mysterious unamed source...Could it be the Towel boy? or possibly John Collins? "hearing"

In any regards if it is as it reads and is fact!

Then we get better for it not worse. Somebody does the contract BS stuff part...fine as long as Savage has complete control in the Personnel part of the business. Obviously he enjoys it and is very, very good at it.

As long as the:
Coaches coach
Players play
Savage Scouts and makes all decision on personnell
New Guy Does the Finances.

With one Head making the final decisions (hopefully remaining Savage!!)

It can only make us better. <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />
JMHO

[color:"white"]You're not getting the big picture of rebuilding Impact. We had more holes than a block of swiss, so taking the BPA's in the early rounds made sense. Signing available guards in free agency to plug immediate holes made sense. Trent Dilfer made sense, but Mo blew that one, which does rest on the head of Savage.

As far saying he could of had a chance at Brown or Mankins, that doesn't hold water. I said just that in another thread moments ago, even though Brown was my #1 target out of that draft. There's no way to say that teams were willing to give us fair value for the #3 pick in the draft.

It's too early to judge Savage. Judging middle and late round picks in the middle of the second season also doesn't hold water. Truth be told, it's what the 1st day guys do that counts far more than finding the rare steal in the late rounds. So far, those picks aren't doing too badly. Edwards is recovering from a blown out knee, Pool is starting to develop, Wimbley is allready a very good player and he doesn't even understand the position yet, and Jackson is an adequate starter as a 2nd round, undersized rookie. Yet it's still too early to judge them.

This side of the topic shouldn't be discussed until 2007 is over. [/color]

j/c

I'm afraid we may have a GM who really should be something different and focused on talent evaluation...and a HC who really should be the defensive coordinator.

I hope I'm wrong...because the only way they play the "should be" role(s) will be elsewhere...and I don't want that either.

They both have a lot to prove during the remainder of this season and through the draft.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and a halfback who is really a fullback. (Yanking Toad's chain so as to not be viewed a Tadpole. Chain-yanking would make a great icon.) <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hh yet humbled again by the intellect of others. Such as life,learn and learn again.

One of the reasons we suck is that the Coach and GM are not given enough time to build a team. The lose for ayear and we and management start talking about getting rid of them. They don't have the time to draft good young O-linemen and let them mature.
Good LTs are gotten through thr draft. Not FA. If a team has a Francise LT, they are keeping and paying him.

So far his 2006 Draft is sizing up to be pretty darn good. Wimbley could be Shawne Merriman 2 by the end of next season. D'Qwell has shown promise.
I know you need to hit homeruns RD 1,but so far Savage's picks from the middle RD's just haven't been solid.I know the draft isn't a exact science.
But Antonio Perkins,c'mon. Josh Cribbs is proof you don't have to spend mid RD pick on punt returner.
Charlie Frye who knows..he's gone through 2 coordinators in 2 years.His qb coach shouldn't be a qb coach. Hes got retreads like Coleman and Andruzzi up front.
Where's Travis Wilson been?

[color:"white"]Hehe....I don't think anyone is gonna be Merriman <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Wimbley is speed in the Jason Taylor mold. Merriman is speed AND the power of 270 pounds comin' at ya <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Another 30 or so and Wimbley is there *L* Wimbley has quite a bit to learn. He has 6.5 sacks which is impressive at this point for a rookie, but he's run himself out of several plays. He's not there yet, but for the first time in several years, it looks like we've drafted a defensive guy that will become.........forgive the pun.........an Impact Playa <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As far as Savage's mid-round picks, they don't look great at this point. Perkins was released and resigned, but getting released isn't a good sign, especially when I personally believe he was taken to also assume the punt return duties when Dropcutt is allowed to walk.

Now as far as Cribbs goes, he's proof you don't have to spend a mid-round pick on a kick returner. Cribbs doesn't look like a punt returner to me, hehe. Many people who watch football don't know that there's a very distinct difference between the two (not saying you, just making a general comment). Guys who are good punt returners often aren't good kick returners, and vice-versa, as it takes two very different kinds of guys.

As noted, who knows with Frye? He's never going to be Palmer, but there's some Rich Gannon in him (forget the Favre talk. That's just dumb. The guy that reminds everyone of Favre is Romo). I seriously questioned the pick when we made it, but he's shown me enough to where I want to give him far more time. Considering what he's had to work with, his escapability has been impressive, and I'm not easily impressed.

I'm wondering about Wilson as well, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

[color:"orange"]Impact I know not directed to me but up there for grabs...
2nd day HRs is your complaint with Savage? From what 05?

05 was a very, very weak draft class. And 2nd day success is not what is holding this franchise back. Its the first day. BE, Pool n CF are excellent returns from a weak draft class.

Perkins is a smack for those who wish to smack but not a Savage signature pick.

Now in a strong draft class we again have hit well in 06 on the first day. Wimbley might be our first STUD!! Paydirt from the first day! Since expansion.

but our 2nd day might be giving us pleasant surprises...All need to be developed of course.

But I think all can give us good impact with exception to maybe Baba - maybe he can become something but I won't hold my breath on him (a 6th rounder). But the rest are excellent prospects. Leon, Sowells, Minter, Harrison, Vickers and Hamilton. Again we can only speculate best to look back end of 07 or 08 and we can better evaluate them.

But the fact that we have invested and let go a bevy of 05 2nd day picks (McMillan isn't far behind either as is Perkins who is on the practice squad but not many comeback from there) doesn't not characterize our expectations from Savage.

Weak draft classes...as long as we are strong the first day.
Strong draft classes...as long as we are strong the first day - and come away with good prospects!

So far so good.

JMHO

Yup I was being general,too general..I should have clarified the Merriman/Wimbley comment...what I meant was impact player/playmaker.
As far punt returner and kick returner goes, from my experiance is that the kick returners are less elusive in lateral movements but faster in straight line speed and bigger in size.
Punt returners are to use the cliche,"jitterbuggy"...much smaller like Dino Hall and Gerald McNeil.

A punt returner also has to be savvy; i.e., when to let a ball bounce instead of taking chances ( like Cribbs did on PR).

Eotab,whats your opinion on Vickers weight? Do you think he could afford to lose a few lbs and be more explosive..he might be the diamond in the rough

[color:"white"]Exactly. You get it. Again, not saying you didn't, just clarifying the point.

Hell, for a while, the Bronco's used Droughns to return kicks, and he actually did well at it. But can you imagine him returning a punt? <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Romeo came in here to clean house and throw out Butch's trash!

Not only does he need to get rid of the garbage he needs to bring in quality team members..............that just does not happen in one season!

We now have some playmakers on both sides of the ball and we have a very good special team unit!

This offseason will be all about the lines.........it may take two years to get that really good.............but next season will be much better! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I would not be surprised if we beat the Bungles this week.............we have another shot at the Steelers and the last two games of the season are very winnable!

Savage has done well.................just expected to do much better in a short time!

I have been one of first people on this board who has been in favour of relieving Phil of some of his administrative duties and hiring an NFL veteran man to assist him in getting this franchise back to its glory days.

I think its a case of Phil bit off more than he can chew but, still he's a great talent evaluator and only needs more time and help in learning all the aspects of being a five star NFL General Manager.

I would like to see a man like Ernie Accorsi, Sr. VP and General Manager, NY Giants, who has stated that he would like to retire from full time duties with Giants in the near future.
I only mention Ernie because he might be a good "fit" here as a part-time advisor, he is a former Brown FO man and is working in NYC, where our owner Randy Lerner has offices.

http://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...=true#Post31809

[color:"red"]"Eotab,whats your opinion on Vickers weight?"

[color:"orange"]233 is not heavy for a FB...I don't wish him to lose more...maybe lose fat and maintain 233 with muscle!

I like Vickers a lot. But I also think he was a Mo Carthon pick. When/If JD puts his offense in will we utilize the FB as much as Mo would??? Will we go more to the tilt of 2 TE?

We used Vickers in one swing pass against the Steelers early - I loved it. It went for over 10+ yds and a first - he hurdled the DB to boot. And we never saw Vickers again???

Will he be a force...or hang on with special teams as we write out the FB in our playbook???

Question to be answered after JD takes over completely I think.

[color:"red"]Vickers, But I also think he was a Mo Carthon pick [/color]
I like Vickers too..but I read a post draft article that said Phil deferred to ONE of his coaches on the second day..I keep wondering who that is/was..and Vickers keeps popping up in my mind.

When did Roger Brown get hired at PFW <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What is a bit mysterious is that Vickers has made 3 or 4 decent plays as a pass catcher out of the backfield. I think he had a 30 yarder in one of the early games (cincy or Ravens).

As long as he does not run fullback sweeps or option passes, he shows some promise.

I hope Lerner doesn't overmanage this team with his wallet. Bad fit; hire a scout to do non-scout duties. Cut afew non-performers and get us some help on the field now!
It's OK to improve in the NFL! It is also OK to clean out your locker if you can't! <img src="/images/graemlins/saywhat.gif" alt="" />

Oh man i hope he doesn't leave...i hate seeing both the coordinators go...it will sort of be like starting from scratch again....blah! where is the continuityyyyy...WHERE

ENOUGH with continuity! Our D is gonna be FINE! it's ROMEO'S SCHEME that made the D what it is. It's not like they have to learn a whole new system.

And Carthon sucked in the first place. Once again, the offense has a lot of the same terminology, JD just has to implement more of his concepts into the offense.

I guess if we had to do it..might as well start with 2 new ones at the same time then prolong it for another year n get another D...i really think the O is going to struggle even more next year....because it WILL be diff...JDs stuff is not the same stuff as what we have right now...that is if he is the O cord next year...which i think he will b....guess him taking over already will ease that transistion...

This is just my opinion but I'd give Savage at least one more FA period, one more draft, and one more season before I'd judge the quality of what he's done....

To be honest, and I'm not calling for a coaching change either, but I'm far more concerned with WHAT I see on the field than WHO I see on the field.

Savage gone?

Didn't the media say Grantham to Michigan State?
Didn't the media say fight between Frye and Edwards?

The media is a joke. They don't know squat and write articles to stur up trouble.

The sad part of this is Lerner pretty much had to can Collins to keep Savage in a "me or him" deal and now it looks like the complaints Collins had were legit.

I am beginning to think Phil is a little twerp.