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IMO and apparently MH, the priority should be to fix the OL and defensive backfield issues.
Drafting a QB high that will not be the answer is just another wasted pick. I have not problem, for example, drafting Clausen in the 3rd round.
As someone else said, this QB class is not deep. We need to draft into the strenghts of this draft. Drafting another QB high without a decent OL would also result in yet another Timmy Carr.
Brian Sipe was drafted in what round?
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Sipe was drafted in the 13th round of the 1972 NFL Draft....
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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The PC way of saying he's not a franchise QB. Very much happy to hear Holmgren say that.
The moment I finished reading what Holmgren thought of Clausen, I thought,,,, SMOKESCREEN...
don't have a clue if I'm right or wrong, but that was my first thought..
That's because in years past our regimes have said "No we are not interested in player X" while standing in front of a wall of posters and jerseys with player X's name on them. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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 Yeah, I guess that's kinda true.....
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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IMO and apparently MH, the priority should be to fix the OL and defensive backfield issues.
Why should this be the priority when QB is the most important position on the field? I swear people on this board are like parrots ... just repeating crap they hear from everyone else. The only position(s) that maybe should be looked at before QB is RG and/or RT. However, I would argue our line is in better shape than it's ever been since the return. While that's a bit relative, we do have a future HOF LT and a Pro Bowler to be in C. You can find some serviceable guys for the right side of the line through other moves and later in the draft.
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As someone else said, this QB class is not deep. We need to draft into the strenghts of this draft. Drafting another QB high without a decent OL would also result in yet another Timmy Carr.
Our OL is decent. Don't get it confused. If you wait to fix the QB position until every other position on the field is fixed, you'll be waiting an eternity. When this team sucks, everyone wants to believe that every position on the field is broken, and we need a Pro Bowler at every position to be successful. But I'll ask what I stated before ... what's the single common denominator to the mediocrity of this team the last 11 years? QB.
My main concern from the tone of the article isn't that we won't try and move up to get Bradford this year, it's that every year we will take the same approach of drafting project QBs to hopefully one day take the reins. That sounds like the dumbest plan I've ever heard. And I'm not saying to draft a guy you don't like high just for the sake of doing it. I'm saying make a move to get the guy you want and sacrifice for it.
Any team that wants a chance to win has to have a Top 10 QB. That's just the way it is.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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When I watched him his accuracy was awful, he didn't see open guys and totally fouled up 2 red-zone possesions. It was only one game, but he sure didn't look like an NFL qb to me. I may be wrong, but I'll pass on him and not lose a wink's sleep.
May be the knock on him is inconsistency. Most draft sites don't have a profile on him because he's too far down the rungs, but as I said, I don't get it. I've seen him twice two years ago and once last year and he was always pretty good to me. Because i've seen times where he's been quite accurate as well. But he very well could be inconsistent.
Well I still would like him with one of our 5th round picks if he's available. I have a good feeling on Zac Robinson
Regarding Rishuz
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Our OL is decent. Don't get it confused. If you wait to fix the QB position until every other position on the field is fixed, you'll be waiting an eternity. When this team sucks, everyone wants to believe that every position on the field is broken, and we need a Pro Bowler at every position to be successful. But I'll ask what I stated before ... what's the single common denominator to the mediocrity of this team the last 11 years? QB.
Last year we depended on St. Clair, that was one of the biggest downfalls of this offense. Our QB play was bad, but until the later part of the year we had a very weak, right side of the line (and Mack wasn't playing well either).
This year we're depending on this Tony Pashos. Some guy I've never heard of, who was injured last year. There are some tackles who continue to play in the NFL for mysterious reasons, there just aren't many big guys qualified to play the position or something. I have no idea if he's an LJ Shelton or a Ryan Tucker, except that after like 7 seasons in the NFL the 49ers would know what they had and wouldn't just give away a decent RT.
So yeah, I'm willing to say that while I agree that QB is the most important position on the field, the positions of RT (as well as S and CB for defense) are essential to fill this year if we want to be successful. Now getting Sam Bradford would be nice, but those three positions must be filled for us to be in any way successful IMO.
I don't know what it would take to trade up to number 1, but if it involves giving away our 2nd and 3rds, we better know what we're doing
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 03/22/10 09:13 AM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Why should this be the priority when QB is the most important position on the field? I swear people on this board are like parrots ... just repeating crap they hear from everyone else
Again, I ask you,, what is it you want them to do? If they can't get Bradford and Clausen isn't the answer (in thier opinion) then why the hell shouldn't they address other needs at the top of the draft?
Would you rather they pick a QB in the first round that isn't a first round talent just to satisfy the need for a QB? I guarantee you, if they do that, you would be all over them for it..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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Why should this be the priority when QB is the most important position on the field? I swear people on this board are like parrots ... just repeating crap they hear from everyone else
Again, I ask you,, what is it you want them to do? If they can't get Bradford and Clausen isn't the answer (in thier opinion) then why the hell shouldn't they address other needs at the top of the draft?
Would you rather they pick a QB in the first round that isn't a first round talent just to satisfy the need for a QB? I guarantee you, if they do that, you would be all over them for it..
While I completely agree with Rish on the QB thing...I agree with this too.
If you don't believe there's a QB where you're picking, and you're only willing to give up so much to get one, don't reach for one, let one fall to you.
I believe a good QB would have the 2010 Browns as wild card contenders...with the combination of being able to run the football, sack totals going up (I imagine Rob Ryan's D will only be more exotic this year) and what the draft picks bring to the table coupled with the development of the 2009 class.
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keep in mind this is JMO.
I believe that Pashos will be better than Shaffer who is better than St. Clair. I don't believe that Pashos will be better than Tucker, but almost.
IMO, Pashos is a legit starting RT of about average ability.
St. Clair looks better as a back-up.Same for Womack who can play guard or tackle.
If we can get a top guard in the draft or Sims in FA then, except for a competent back-up center, we will be looking pretty solid along the OL, at least on paper. We all know how the"looking good on paper" deal works.
Last edited by Line Judge; 03/22/10 10:11 AM.
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Would you rather they pick a QB in the first round that isn't a first round talent just to satisfy the need for a QB? I guarantee you, if they do that, you would be all over them for it..
Sometimes you make it hard to respond to you because either you don't understand what someone is saying or you just don't read their entire posts. The answer to your question was in the post of mine you were responding to. I've bolded the direct answer to your question. I don't know how to be more clear so that you understand. Sorry.
What I said:
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My main concern from the tone of the article isn't that we won't try and move up to get Bradford this year, it's that every year we will take the same approach of drafting project QBs to hopefully one day take the reins. That sounds like the dumbest plan I've ever heard. And I'm not saying to draft a guy you don't like high just for the sake of doing it. I'm saying make a move to get the guy you want and sacrifice for it.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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the entire gist of the article is that there is no one outside of Bradford that MH would be willing to sacrifice to obtain and he believes that the Rams will take him right off the bat.
When you talk about sacrifice, how much are you wiiling to part with?
Another Herschel Walker trade? We give up our entire draft class?
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If you don't believe there's a QB where you're picking, and you're only willing to give up so much to get one, don't reach for one, let one fall to you.
That's my point,,, Just because you need one, if you reach to get one,, it's not right either..
Reach for the guy you believe in.., not just for a guy to fill a hole..
Bradford is a guy that Holmgren seems to like a lot, maybe they will reach for him.. maybe they'll get him, maybe not.. dunno. In fact, we may never know what stuff goes on in the back room.....
But if he's gone and there isn't anyone else you like enough to reach for, then you go get other thngs you need...
Take a QB later and develop them...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Good read.
I'm going to mention someone that almost no one is talking about. I think that Jarrett Brown of West Virginia is someone Holmgren might take a look at. I need to watch a lot more of him, but I think he has a lot of potential, especially in a WCO.
Actually thats who I want.
And I've seen the kid quite a few times...Athletic, can wing the ball downfield or pick up yardage with his legs. Good developmental prospect.
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As much as I believe MH wants to be honest when talking to reporters, At this time of the year I give all GM's in the NFL a free "BS" pass for everything that comes out of their mouth. NOTHING is what it seems.
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It seems that Holmgren is a straight shooter. And from what I've read he's not one for smoke screens.
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j/c there's too much of an obsession to find a "franchise qb." there aren't many "franchise qbs" in the league, unless you're saying you know what franchse the qb plays for. aside from that, if you like someone, that doesn't justify mortgaging the future and any other picks, even if we have a surplus, to get that one guy who can still end up being a bust. like billick had said, 1st round qbs have a 70% failure rate. not even 50-50. ( http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/...fl-quarterbacks )
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j/c
I, for one, am a big fan of Mike Kafka and hope that the Browns are looking at him. I am just wondering, why do people not bring his name up more? He's fairly accurate and has a good arm. He did play in a spread, but what QB doesn't play in a spread anymore? Am I missing something on him or is he just not getting any publicity whatsoever?
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
j/c
there's too much of an obsession to find a "franchise qb." there aren't many "franchise qbs" in the league, unless you're saying you know what franchse the qb plays for. aside from that, if you like someone, that doesn't justify mortgaging the future and any other picks, even if we have a surplus, to get that one guy who can still end up being a bust.
like billick had said, 1st round qbs have a 70% failure rate. not even 50-50.
( http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/...fl-quarterbacks )
Too much of an obsession? Really?
Here's your last 15 Super Bowl winners.
Dallas
Green Bay
Denver
Denver
St. Louis
Baltimore
New England
Tampa Bay
New England
New England
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis
NY
Pittsburgh
New Orleans
With the exception of a couple, every one of those teams had a franchise QB, and that's only the last 15 years.
I mean what's the goal here? I always thought the goal was to win it all. If you want to win it all, you need a franchise QB.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Geez Rish,, nobody is saying NOT to get your franchise guy.... pay attention..
You were knocking the thought that maybe we go with DB's and LB's or Safeties with our first couple of picks instead of going for a QB..
Well, if we can't get to Bradford and Clausen doesn't fit what Holmgren feels is a QB that he likes (that's what he said remember) Then what do you want them to do,,, Reach for someone that isn't worth a 1st, 2nd or 3rd round pick?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No you don't! You need defense and a running game!!!!!! You need to EXACTLY emulate the 2000 Baltimore Ravens and 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. So what if everyone tells us that the NFL is a QB-driven league...we know better than them!!!! you didn't know that?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 
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we all have different philosophies. while i don't believe in the 2000 ravens approach and understand that this is a qb driven league, that doesn't mean you need a top 2 qb to win a superbowl. let's worry about getting average production before saying we need an elite qb. all teams need an elite qb except for 2 or 3.
what i'm saying is to not jeapordize our other day one picks just to move up to pick a qb who could potentially saddle this team even worse than it has been before. i'm not saying we don't need a young qb, i just don't want to throw picks to get the best qb because the other qbs suck. we already did that with quinn.
further, if you really read my quote, i associate "franchse qb" with "elite qb" not just a qb that represents the franchse. if you operate with the latter definition, then, in this day and age, every qb is a "franchise qb" because of the prevalence of info. i'm assuming you mean "elite qb."
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Quote:
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As for the second-ranked quarterback in the draft, Jimmy Clausen of Notre Dame, Holmgren was characteristically honest.
"I wish I liked him more," he said. "You know how you have a type of player that you like? It's not scientific. People like him a lot. He'll go high. But it would be hard for me [to take him]."
The PC way of saying he's not a franchise QB. Very much happy to hear Holmgren say that.
WHEW! I agree 100%
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http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/10831/source-colt-mccoy-to-visit-brownsby James Walker Recently Cleveland Browns president Mike Holmgren said the team probably won’t draft a quarterback with the No. 7 overall pick. But every quarterback after the first round certainly is fair game. According to a league source, the Browns are interested in University of Texas quarterback Colt McCoy. Cleveland will bring McCoy in for a two-day visit on April 12-13, the source told the AFC North blog. After trading former starter Brady Quinn to the Denver Broncos and releasing former Pro Bowler Derek Anderson, Cleveland is searching for its future quarterback. McCoy, a projected second-round pick, led the Longhorns with 3,521 passing yards and 27 touchdowns last season. He had a quarterback rating of 147.41. The Browns signed veteran Jake Delhomme to a two-year contract during the offseason and traded for career backup Seneca Wallace. Delhomme, 35, is expected to be the starter in 2010 but is not Cleveland's long-term solution.
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I think you have to bring McCoy in.
I know some people don't like him, but he's one of the QB's that might be available for us in the 3rd round and we have to see what he can do both on the field and mentally.
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They are bringing him in (reported in the AFC blog on espn.com)
2-day visit.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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*cough* *cough* I can't bre *cough* breathe in here with *cough* all this smoke!
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Too much of an obsession? Really?
Here's your last 15 Super Bowl winners.
Dallas
Green Bay
Denver
Denver
St. Louis
Baltimore
New England
Tampa Bay
New England
New England
Pittsburgh
Indianapolis
NY
Pittsburgh
New Orleans
With the exception of a couple, every one of those teams had a franchise QB, and that's only the last 15 years.
I mean what's the goal here? I always thought the goal was to win it all. If you want to win it all, you need a franchise QB.
Rish, what you are forgetting is that not all those QB's were drafted in the first. And some like Trent Dilfer and Kerry Collins(not a winner) were average at best QB's that went to the SuperBowl with teams that did not draft them. Tom Brady- 6th Round, Kurt Warner- undrafted, (Hasselback-6th round, Delhomme-undrafted, Chris Chandler-3rd, Rich Gannon-4th, Brad Johnson-9th, Brett Favre-2nd, Drew Brees-2nd, Neil Odonnell-3rd. to name a few. Not all were winners but made it and some beat first roun QB's..They came from everywhere in the draft. I would consider Brady, Warner, Favre, Brees, Hasselback and Delhomme all Franchise QB's for their teams. Can you imagine how New England's History would change if they felt the need to draft Pennington just to have a QB instead of Brady.
http://www.drafthistory.com/superbowl_quarterbacks.html
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I agree Rishuz.
If Holmgren isn't trying to extract the best QB he can from this draft he isn't doing any of us a favor. Even if we have to overpay to get a guy like Bradford we must do it, if Holmgren is convinced he is the man.
The question isn't really what it will cost or how other areas of the team may suffer, the question is is Bradford the Franchise QB or not. Whta price would you pay to have a PM, TB, DB, PR on this team? The price might be high but everyone of these guys elevate their respective teams to the next level, and that has to be our target, the next level.
JMHO
BTTB
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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it's like a chicken and egg deal.
Is the elite QB elite b/c he is on a good team?
If Brady had been with us instead of Couch or with the Texans instead of Carr what would have happened? He might not even be in the league at this point.......
Brady has been surrounded by a great OL that allows him to stand in the pocket and look over the field and a system that has been in place for a decade.
Sure, Peyton Manning takes the Colts to the next level. But if he was running for his life or his defense didn't stop anyone, then what?
Here comes a rant ///
And what's this talk of " he never won a super bowl" when referring to a player esp. a QB?
Hello.... they give Lombardi trophies to teams,not individual players.
rant off///
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Exactly. He doesn't think Clausen has it, so he's not going to pick him just to make it look like he's doing something about the QB position.
To be more precise, I believe he said he didn't like Clausen at 7. If, by some chance, he hits the 2nd round, it could be a different story.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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To be more precise, I believe he said he didn't like Clausen at 7. If, by some chance, he hits the 2nd round, it could be a different story.
I believe the original comment he made with asked about Clausen was, "I wish I liked him more"....
I went ahead and checked,, this is the exact quote:
Quote:
Browns | Holmgren would have a hard time picking Clausen
Sun, 21 Mar 2010 16:41:20 -0700
Tony Grossi, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, reports Cleveland Browns president Mike Holmgren wishes he liked Notre Dame QB Jimmy Clausen more. Holmgren said, "I wish I liked him more. You know how you have a type of player that you like? It's not scientific. People like him a lot. He'll go high. But it would be hard for me [to take him]."
Read more: http://www.kffl.com/team/13/nfl#ixzz0j16H4JQ9
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/23/10 12:12 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Simple questions dawgs.... Holmgren has said he wants to get a QB this draft and look for "his guy". He's also said that he likely won't take that QB in the first round, hence no Clausen and no Bradford.
For the sake of argument, let's say Holmgren doesn't go with a QB in the second either, despite the McCoy rumors. So no McCoy.
And no Tebow.....opinions are too wildly divergent and I want to explore the OTHER QBs.
So, if you take Bradford, Clausen, McCoy and Tebow out of the equation, who do you look at in the third round or later as our QB in waiting? Include a little justification on why you think that guy is THE guy.
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You doctored it. 
It's always risky to do it, but I'm reading between the lines there. I don't believe he'd make those same comments if he were picking at twenty-two. That's what I believe him to be saying.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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LOL No doctoring here... it could be that he's thinking in terms of our draft position in the first round I guess....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
So, if you take Bradford, Clausen, McCoy and Tebow out of the equation, who do you look at in the third round or later as our QB in waiting? Include a little justification on why you think that guy is THE guy.
Jarrett Brown of WV...athletic..good arm ,can wing it...can move and get yards with his legs..good vision..
However he is a project but needs to sit a year..tends to throw into coverage some because of arm strength..tends to be more reactive in the pocket instead of checking down..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
I probably wouldn't mind McCoy in the 2nd round. He was an accurate passer in college, and could manage an offense. He might not have a rocket arm, but I think he could sustain drives with his accuracy.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867 |
Quote:
I probably wouldn't mind McCoy in the 2nd round. He was an accurate passer in college, and could manage an offense. He might not have a rocket arm, but I think he could sustain drives with his accuracy.
to be fair, I've not watched much of McCoy.. just a little and I thought the same thing.. But man, about a week ago I mentioned him onhere and you would have thought that I spoke martian or something
There were a couple of folks that thought he was weak armed and not accurate.... go figure..
Then we come to find out that he's been invited to visit the browns..
one mans trash is another mans treasure I guess...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Honestly ... he's a bit like Brady Quinn, and maybe that's what have people on edge. He doesn't have massive stature like you'd want in a QB ... he's 6'3 (similar to Quinn). He doesn't have have a huge average ypa ... he's 8.06 (Quinn's college ypa was 7.79). His average yards per season were almost identical 3313 to Quinn's 3310. And his QB rating was only marginally better, 155.54 to 143.64.
However, I think the key stat here is completion percentage ... Quinn averaged 60.3% over three years, while McCoy was TEN percent higher at 70.2% over four years.
Considering that Quinn was a first round pick, while McCoy is slotted to go in the second round, I'd say that's some pretty decent value for the second round. The draft is pretty much a craps shoot as to whether these guys pan out or not. Quinn might not of made the grade ... but I'd try my chances and be happy with a guy that put up similar numbers and a 10% improvement in completion percentage. Especially in the second round.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 5,109 |
McCoy is actually 6'1" and to be honest, I see virtually no similarities. Quinn had a much stronger arm and played in a pro system. McCoy played in a spread and 90% of his throws were under 10 yards. That really skews the completion percentage.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
I'm not saying he's a world beater ... but I wouldn't mind him in the second. Unlike a certain other QB who's projected to go in the 2nd or 3rd, put up monster stats in a college offense, and "won" while at college ... at least McCoy seems to be your more typical QB.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) New Article on Drafting a QB
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