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I can send anybody the relevant articles (who wants them) - It seems like it's been pretty exhaustively shown that less birds are killed per GWh by turbines than by pollution effects from coal burning plants.
PM me if you're interested
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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I'm surprised that that is even a debate . Solar enegry devices are coming down but have a long way to go before becoming a viable option for me . They have some amazing ideas in the pipelines for solar though . Wave tech. is also a neat energy and they are steaming ahead with fusion as well . America is behind in spending money on "green " energy ideas and needs to catch up .
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Quote:
I can send anybody the relevant articles (who wants them) - It seems like it's been pretty exhaustively shown that less birds are killed per GWh by turbines than by pollution effects from coal burning plants.
PM me if you're interested
~Lyuokdea
Thanks for doing the research. Interesting, isn't it?
How many people on here have driven past one of these turbines? Or 4 - or 400? The blades do NOT spin fast - we're not talking about them being like propellers.
Also - they run off the wind - there is no increased wind speed on the back side of them.
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I have driven past them and frankly, they look like they are hardly moving at all,,,,
Lyuokdea did some research and I've requested if from him.. But I was wondering how many species of wildlife are killed by other forms of energy generation? And how the wind turbines stack up..
Hopefully, his research will tell us.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
I can send anybody the relevant articles (who wants them) - It seems like it's been pretty exhaustively shown that less birds are killed per GWh by turbines than by pollution effects from coal burning plants.
PM me if you're interested
~Lyuokdea
I'm not. Sounds like some hard reading. Quite frankly I'm not that bright. I know you are a straight shooter and believe what you posted.
#gmstrong
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Whenever we build something new, the environment is impacted. Let's get used to this fact. And given the fact that the human population continues to grow, that continues to require more things to be built and the environment to be impacted more.
Knocking off a few extra thousand birdies per year is the least of our problems when we look at how our lives impact the environment.
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Quote:
I can send anybody the relevant articles (who wants them) - It seems like it's been pretty exhaustively shown that less birds are killed per GWh by turbines than by pollution effects from coal burning plants.
PM me if you're interested
~Lyuokdea
To add to this, coal makes up a significantly larger portion of North America's energy mix than renewables.
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Quote:
Quote:
I can send anybody the relevant articles (who wants them) - It seems like it's been pretty exhaustively shown that less birds are killed per GWh by turbines than by pollution effects from coal burning plants.
PM me if you're interested
~Lyuokdea
To add to this, coal makes up a significantly larger portion of North America's energy mix than renewables.
Yes, it does. And they want to reduce the amount of energy we get from coal - but what do we replace it with??????????? Apparently nothing - since everything else has its downside. (hydro, nuclear, wind power, etc).
The good news is, if we only went "green" with electric vehicles then we'd...............wait - we have power shortages as it is, throw in a few million electric cars that can only travel a hundred miles or so without having to be plugged in, combined with cutting coal power - and we have? Jack.
While other countries are drilling for oil off our shores, we dilly dally worrying about eliminating coal power.
We dither about killing a few birds.
We worry about affecting fish.
I bet the answer is pretty simple - higher taxes on energy. That will solve it.
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For example... Wind turbines at the Altamont Pass Wind Resource Area (APWRA) kill more birds of prey than any other wind facility in North America, due to their location on a major bird migratory route in an area with high concentrations of raptors, including the highest density of breeding golden eagles in the world. Image: http://norwesterescarpment.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/eagle.jpg
Last edited by BirdDawg81; 03/30/10 05:32 PM.
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Quote:
To add to this, coal makes up a significantly larger portion of North America's energy mix than renewables.
True - that's corrected for by the estimation of the (# of birds killed per unit energy) units that are being used in the study.
Of course - if the effect is non-linear (which is probable for the coal fired plants, but improbable for the wind turbines) - then the unit is meaningless for huge changes in policy, but relatively meaningful for small changes of a few coal plants to a few hundred turbines etc.
~Lyuokdea
"When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:33-34
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How many wind turbines do we currently have in operation, anyone know? What happens when they become the "norm" and more birds die as a result? It only makes sense...the more we build, the more they die.
Clearly there are different "studies" out there. Luke, please PM me the info you have.
Some of you guys really amaze me sometimes.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
How many wind turbines do we currently have in operation, anyone know? What happens when they become the "norm" and more birds die as a result? It only makes sense...the more we build, the more they die.
Clearly there are different "studies" out there. Luke, please PM me the info you have.
Some of you guys really amaze me sometimes.
Odds are they never become the norm Michelle. They are a source but I doubt they will ever become the pre-eminent power generation source in North America as they do not supply constant and consistent generation.
But Michelle, realize this: the more we build of ANY electrical generation, the more we effect the environment. There is no such thing as impact free construction. It's really a pick your poison debate. Whereas you apparently have a soft spot for birds, inland fisherman may oppose hydro-electric programs as disruption of fish habitat.
Either that or we can start living without electricity or power or energy etc.
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In general:
Do you guys really think I'm dumb enough that I don't realize ALL power production will have an environmental impact? People keep telling me that as if I'm unaware. I'm just hoping for the solution with the least and I'm not buying that it's wind power right now.
Also, many of you act as though we have to do something right this instant -- or else. It's not that bad. We could live off our own oil for a very long time to come. Granted, we probably don't want to, but we could. We will NOT be without electricity, or power, or energy. The sky isn't falling.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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that is true, the problem is that while other countries don't enforce our patents, we allow theirs to be enforced here.
so, if we don't create the IP, then we might be forced to buy it from other countries.
you are completely correct in that we will be fine, but if we want to retain our global leadership, it is something we have to pursue (i prefer with private funds)
#gmstrong
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Quote:
In general:
Do you guys really think I'm dumb enough that I don't realize ALL power production will have an environmental impact? People keep telling me that as if I'm unaware. I'm just hoping for the solution with the least and I'm not buying that it's wind power right now.
Also, many of you act as though we have to do something right this instant -- or else. It's not that bad. We could live off our own oil for a very long time to come. Granted, we probably don't want to, but we could. We will NOT be without electricity, or power, or energy. The sky isn't falling.
Well, yes and no Michelle. Yes, the States still has alot of natural resources. Since we're talking about electricity generation, we'll talk natural gas as that is probably the power of choice moving forward until they clean up coal a bit.
From the quick data I found, the US has proven reserves of approx. 211 trillion cubic feet. This is what is currently in the ground that they KNOW is there. When you look at unproven reserves so the various plays that haven;t been drilled yet or gas pools that are more unconventional (ie shale gas), you're looking at a much bigger total....1747 trillion cubic feet.
If the US didn;t develop any new natural gas sources and did not export any natural gas and just worked off proven reserves, the country has less than 10 years of natural gas.
If all of the unproven potential is there, you're looking at close to 80 years of natural gas.
It's gonna be an oil and gas world for quite awhile yet but the bottom line is that this stuff WILL run out eventually. Renewable energy sources have to be developed to prepare for this and to extend the life of the resource.
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Quote:
Do you guys really think I'm dumb enough that I don't realize ALL power production will have an environmental impact?
Well, since you asked 
No, really I don't think anyone believes you to be dumb at all.. But you did come off a little unforgiving on the Wind Turbine issue. As if this was an absolute "no go' in your eyes.
I assume that may be the reason some folks felt a need to give you the other side of the argument..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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yep, I was one of a couple to jump on her about it.... I think she did say something along the lines of: Sorry, I will not change my mind on this until birds no longer die. I guess felt when she was intially making comments it was kinda like when my girlfriend tells me no... maybe with enough cohersion I can sometimes get her to say yes
Meh.
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Quote:
gas as that is probably the power of choice moving forward until they clean up coal a bit.
Clean coal is a lie. There is no such thing. I'll take a million wind turbines over the total devastation that coal mining creates. West Virginia is going to look like a prairie state if they keep leveling mountian tops for coal. Deforestation causing massive loss of habitat. Silt run off choking out fish filled streams. All that before the crap gets "cleanly burned". You know, like a clean burning tire fire. 
They don't mine coal like they use to. Through a tunnel in the ground. Now they just flatten mountains until they get to the coal reserves. Leaving a FOREVER changed geography. See above photo.
Last edited by PortlandDawg; 03/31/10 05:34 PM.
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Quote:
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gas as that is probably the power of choice moving forward until they clean up coal a bit.
Clean coal is a lie. There is no such thing. I'll take a million wind turbines over the total devastation that coal mining creates. West Virginia is going to look like a prairie state if they keep leveling mountian tops for coal. Deforestation causing massive loss of habitat. Silt run off choking out fish filled streams. All that before the crap gets "cleanly burned". You know, like a clean burning tire fire.
They don't mine coal like they use to. Through a tunnel in the ground. Now they just flatten mountains until they get to the coal reserves. Leaving a FOREVER changed geography. See above photo.
Clean coal is actually a reference to new combustion processes and added scrubbing of emissions. Check out supercritical combustion...early results are pretty promising.
As for the associated land use, I'm not sure how it goes in West Virginia. But in Canada there is legislation requiring land restoration once the resource is extracted. This requires a company to make the land suitable for plant and animal life again including reforestation.
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I understand the concept of scrubbing the emissions but to call it "clean" is a lie. Yes the emissions are "cleanish" but the process of getting the coal to the power plant is anything but.
And while these companies are reforresting the land, the land itself is forever changed. Imagine the rolling hills of the Canadian NE being leveled until it looks like the flatlands of Saskatchewan. Sure there are trees but at what cost? A total change in topography? No thanks. Sure windfarms can cause some environmental issues. In the long run, maybe after fusion has been figured out and wind energy is seen as obsolete, the turbines can be taken down and the land restored to it's former state. Mountain top removal is forever.
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Quote:
Sorry, I will not change my mind on this until birds no longer die.
I did say something like that, and I guess I shouldn't want to see species of birds wiped out. My bad.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
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In the end, it would have to be what benefits us more,, the birds or the energy..
Yes, it's always got to be about us. That's what bugs me about mankind...bunch of selfish bastards. 
This is silly,birds run into all sorts of stuff. To not build something because a bird may run into it is just plain dumb. Especially something that can be good for mankind and the environment in general.
And talk about selfish bastards. You are so worried about affecting wildlife,yet I know for a fact you like to fish. Catch and release or not doesnt matter. Its pretty selfish to trick a fish into thinking its getting a meal and then running a steel hook through its mouth and dragging it out of the water,and then yanking the hook back out of its mouth,or even worse from in its throat and throwing it back in the water,where it may or may not liv,all for your entertainment.
And I dont get me wrong, I enjoy fishing and hunting but I am pointing out the hypocrisy of what you are saying here.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I appreciate what you are saying however, I think you are going a little overboard.
If a whole species of birds are dumb enough into a windmil there is another species that is not. there will not come a day when there are no birds on this planet because of windmills.
Meh.
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Okay, that's cool, think what you wish. I really just wanted to voice a concern...and it's a major one whether you guys see it or not.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
Okay, that's cool, think what you wish. I really just wanted to voice a concern...and it's a major one whether you guys see it or not.
Sure it is a concern,and one that needs to be factored in to the construction plans. No doubt there are going to bve some birds that fly into these things,as there are with any towering structures built,but to say whole species of birds will die because of running into wind mills is ridiculous.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Right, just like killing a few Ivory-billed woodpeckers wouldn't hurt anything, either. I don't get what part of "migratory lane" you guys don't understand. Anyway, I'm out of this one. Go ahead and build the damned things where they have the potential to kill the most birds. Who cares, right...it's just a few birds.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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C'mon guys...didn't you know that wind turbines are glorified chainsaws that flocks of birds fly into and only feathers puff out the other side?
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Just an FYI http://www.birdstrike.org/events/signif.htmThey indicated that from 1990 to 2001 there were 38,000 birds hit by commercial aircraft and furthermore say that they think that represents only 20% of the actual strikes.. That would mean (if my math is right) 190,000 bird strikes in that period of time. 17,272 strikes per year.. I say we halt all air travel lest we kill off the entire bird population...... Honestly, I'm not sure how reliable this source is,, just having some fun...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I vote all air travel is henceforth conducted solely by hot air balloon or zeppelin.
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Quote:
I vote all air travel is henceforth conducted solely by hot air balloon or zeppelin.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I vote all air travel is henceforth conducted solely by hot air balloon or zeppelin.
Sure torch the poor things when they fly through the heater flame. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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at least they are cooked when given to the homeless........
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
#gmSTRONG
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Quote:
Just an FYI
http://www.birdstrike.org/events/signif.htm
They indicated that from 1990 to 2001 there were 38,000 birds hit by commercial aircraft and furthermore say that they think that represents only 20% of the actual strikes..
That would mean (if my math is right) 190,000 bird strikes in that period of time. 17,272 strikes per year..
I say we halt all air travel lest we kill off the entire bird population......
Honestly, I'm not sure how reliable this source is,, just having some fun...
I think I'm gonna start up www.planestrike.org and start tracking how many planes are abused by these insane, ideological and suicidal kamikaze birds. You can't tell me that these professional avians aren't targetting our aircraft.
However, we can be thankful for them for they damage the aircraft, which creates work and thus keeps jobs going.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Just an FYI
http://www.birdstrike.org/events/signif.htm
They indicated that from 1990 to 2001 there were 38,000 birds hit by commercial aircraft and furthermore say that they think that represents only 20% of the actual strikes..
That would mean (if my math is right) 190,000 bird strikes in that period of time. 17,272 strikes per year..
I say we halt all air travel lest we kill off the entire bird population......
Honestly, I'm not sure how reliable this source is,, just having some fun...
I think I'm gonna start up www.planestrike.org and start tracking how many planes are abused by these insane, ideological and suicidal kamikaze birds. You can't tell me that these professional avians aren't targetting our aircraft.
However, we can be thankful for them for they damage the aircraft, which creates work and thus keeps jobs going.
Jihadist pigeons....
Mayeb that's why they run into wind turbines...they are slowly eroding America's power supply. You devious ... Osama.....
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You can't tell me that these professional avians aren't targetting our aircraft.
It's a conspiracy I tell you. The birds are out to get us... THey are angry that we continually eat Turkey every thanksgiving... All they want is to be left alone
Ok,, I'll stop now 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It's a conspiracy I tell you. The birds are out to get us... THey are angry that we continually eat Turkey every thanksgiving... All they want is to be left alone
Ok,, I'll stop now
i thought they were mad at the chik-filet commercials.
#gmstrong
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LOL I said I was going to stop now
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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LOL I said I was going to stop now
i thought you were just passing the torch.
#gmstrong
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Oh,, Ok, the torch is yours,, but lets be carefull not to "ruffle" any feathers as it passes between us
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
I say we halt all air travel lest we kill off the entire bird population.
Have you ever looked at the bugs stuck to the front of your car sometimes...?
Forget about a few thousand birds, what about the MILLIONS OF INSECTS!
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