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I don't understand the Fraley move either, but it was Heckert that moved him from Philly, so there could be something there.
I see this guy as just somebody filling a back-up need. I'm sure they will try to fill this spot in the draft, but in case they can't, we now have a back-up center with experience. IMO he will compete with a rookie or UDFA to be the back-up. It is a need filled before the draft, making it less of a need in the draft.
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All I am going to say is that football is a business and players are employees. Employees aren't always told the truth or treated fairly. In Hank's case I believe they were less then honest or they just changed their minds after the initial conversations.
The Browns like every other business has a plan for everything they do. All we can do is hope they make the right decisions. I think letting Hank go wasn't as much to do with performance or pay. Teams cut people all the time and try and resign them. They also renegotiate contracts.
Hank is a great example of what a football player should be. To be more specific what a Brown should be. As much as I am unhappy to see Hank go I am choosing to believe that the Browns are doing what is best for us.
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Hank was one of us, a regular guy,
speak for yourself  
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don't mis-understand me. Hank was one of my favorite players.I'm still not certain that his release or Hadnot's for that matter was the best tactical decision. I've been harping about the lack of a back-up ever since.( insert harping gremlin) Eric G.does not appear to be an up-grade. I hope he is an equal value,but I don't see that as the case right now. and I can't sleep 
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We don't know what Ghiaciuc is going to make next season. If he makes $700,000 then he might be equal value to Fraley (who was due a $1.5 million roster, plus his normal salary).
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We don't know what Ghiaciuc is going to make next season. If he makes $700,000 then he might be equal value to Fraley (who was due a $1.5 million roster, plus his normal salary).
I don't get this.. I mean, if the guy at 700k isn't as good as the guy at 2 million or so,, then you have a hole that you just tossed 700k down...
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Ghiaciuc at $700,000 is the same value as a better player at $2,000,000+. I know we all liked Fraley, but he was above-average at best.
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Ghiaciuc at $700,000 is the same value as a better player at $2,000,000+. I know we all liked Fraley, but he was above-average at best.
How much is a guy that isn't any good worth.. what's his value? That's what I'm driving at.
I think we are talking apples and oranges.., you appear to be looking at performance for dollars spent.. I'm not..
I say that if you spend 700k on something that doesn't do the job,, then it's wasted.. thus, no value.
Hank at least did the job and from everything I've read, Hank did it better than this guy can.. Therefore, he has no value... To me at least..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I love that we've progressed to the point where we're arguing about OLine backups. 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Suprised Issac Sowells hasn't come up either.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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And Jon Dunn!! Also who was the refridgerator with worse feet we signed to back up LCB then then he retired? Bring him in too!
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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I think this is Hank almost in reverse. Hank was more of a technician and a better pass blocker....Ghichuic is more of a mauler and better run blocker...and that is the mold that Mangini is looking for....run first oriented...It is why we drafted Mack to begin with...
I don't know much about Ghichuic upstairs....I really liked Fraley in that department. That was good for Mack's development...But perhaps, Mack is at a point where that is not needed so much and Ghichuic fills in just fine.
Im not disagreing with you, but in an uncapped year, keeping Fraley would have been a better option regardless of what mold he fits. I agree that he doesnt fill Manginis mold. Neither does Steinbach but I think Mangini needs to change his mold. Especially when it comes to him and his LBs that he drafts (Im also going back to Gholston in NY) And I was one of the people getting bashed 2 years ago for saying Fraley needs to be upgraded. With this teams history of injuries, Fraley would have earned his money as a starter at some point in the season. At any point of the season or any point of the game, Fraley could come is as center, guard, or even an extra blocking TE. In an uncapped year, that was definately worth $3 million. But like a poster said a few post before the post I replied to, maybe their was something between Fraley and Heck that we dont know. I remember Fraley being upset over getting benched in Philly and maybe Heck holds a grudge over Fraley trying to force his hand in a trade. I remember Fraley talking to Crennel right after a pre-season game against Philly. I dont remember hearing fraley complain one time after the selection of Mack and Fraley was a professional and a mentor all last season.
Fraleys could play multiple positions, he doesnt get hurt, and he knows his teammates and this offense. That was worth the signing bonus in my opinion. Especially in an uncapped year and especially with so many other holes that needed filled. Keeping Fraley around made more sense then paying Delhomme $5 million more this year then Quinn would have made.
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I guess that would depend what type of C you want (mauler vs finnese) or wheather you want more of a run stuffer than a guy who moves better into the second level.
Sometimes guys just don't fit into the direction you're headed.
Not saying that's the case here. Just a possibility IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I love that we've progressed to the point where we're arguing about OLine backups.
Ah....you used the plural "backups". Now had you used the singular "backup" I would be forced to agree with you.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Ghiaciuc at $700,000 is the same value as a better player at $2,000,000+. I know we all liked Fraley, but he was above-average at best.
How much is a guy that isn't any good worth.. what's his value? That's what I'm driving at.
I think we are talking apples and oranges.., you appear to be looking at performance for dollars spent.. I'm not..
I say that if you spend 700k on something that doesn't do the job,, then it's wasted.. thus, no value.
Hank at least did the job and from everything I've read, Hank did it better than this guy can.. Therefore, he has no value... To me at least..
I agree 100%. There would have been a $2 million difference between the 2 players. But if anyone watched the last 5 games last year, they would have seen that Fraley earned every last penny. Not even counting what he did as a mentor. He didnt pull a Favre (when the Packers drafted Rogers) and say "I got a job to do I dont have time to babysit" Plus like I said, this is an uncapped year and with some of the offseason moves, it looks like Holmgren is spending lerners money like crazy. They even beefed up Sheldon Browns contract this year by moving money from the last 2 years into this year. So money isnt a problem. There must be a rift between Heckert and Fraley. Maybe Fraley was asked to take a paycut which he refused. If he didnt, he should of at least been offered. If he wasnt offered then Heckert didnt do his job to the best of his abilities IMO in this personnel move.
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I guess that would depend what type of C you want (mauler vs finnese) or wheather you want more of a run stuffer than a guy who moves better into the second level.
Sometimes guys just don't fit into the direction you're headed.
Not saying that's the case here. Just a possibility IMO
I agree but I just get a little peeved when some coaches want to judge a player by height, weight, speed, and not by results on the field. Thats what Butch Davis had trouble with. Heck of a coach and motivator, but horrible in talent assesment from college to the NFL. He went by molds rather then on the field results.
Hopefully this works out for the Browns. Its not like Fraley was so good that he got signed right away. Im suprised he didnt get singed yet. Im guessing that if he didn get signed by now, he will get signed very soon after the draft. Unless there is a failed steroid test that we dont know about but I highly doubt it. I can see Pittsburgh and Ciny looking for his services if they dont get what they are looking for in the draft.
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Exactly,, until they reveal thier entire plan, I'm going to remain somewhat skeptical about this signing coupled with the release of Fraley...
man would I ever love to be proven wrong about my concerns...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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For my money, I'd have kept Hank.. And according to Danielle, a few weeks before hank was released, he was told they'd like him to stay..
I don't remember her saying anything about Hank asking to be released or traded.. Could be that it happened, but I don't remember Danielle saying it.
She told me the same thing to in an email after I expressed my condolences and thanked their family for their time in Cleveland. She said they were told they had nothing to worry about and she didnt have kind words about players liking or wanting to play for the current coach. But I do take that last part with a grain of salt because nobody has kind words about their former employer when you unexpectingly lose your ;and when your content and happy with where you are living at then unexpectingly have to move your family.
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Oh my God, I agree with your logic, is this a first. If you sign a dud for lesser money You are not SAVING the difference but flushing down( insert your words)the difference. Not paying DA and Quinn and then paying washed up Delhomme 7 Million was a waste of 7 mil. I mean he tossed THRE TIMES the ints of Quinn and equal the TDs in his last 12 starts( I think if you count all 12 starts with Quinn he has more TDs as well( I was only counting the 8 starts last year(8tds).
But back to your point Damonshot, yes we saved Nothing. With Fraley we had a decent backup at guard and center and this guy, who was cut by the Chiefs and out of the league last year, this white elephant was a "deal". Maybe lerner lost too much $$$$ in the last economic downturn and all the front office salaries are wanting him to "go Cheap".
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I knew that you couldn't just agree and drop it there.. no no,,not without your general rhetoric about Delhomme and money and how stupid everyone but you is.. Go eat a ham sandwich will ya...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I didn't like the move to drop Fraley either...I hope you do not think that was what I was saying. I was just giving my interpretation of the situation...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Hopefully this works out for the Browns. Its not like Fraley was so good that he got signed right away. Im suprised he didnt get singed yet. Im guessing that if he didn get signed by now, he will get signed very soon after the draft. Unless there is a failed steroid test that we dont know about but I highly doubt it. I can see Pittsburgh and Ciny looking for his services if they dont get what they are looking for in the draft.
He was released by the Browns on March 3, 2010.[3]
On March 14, 2010, Fraley signed with the St. Louis Rams.
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As someone else posted he has been signed. He also had talked to several other teams that were interested.
I think it isn't proper to mention something she told you in an email on the board, especially if you think it might have had something to do with her emotions of the moment.
I had done something similar and have paid a heavy price.
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I have to say, I'm VERY disappointed that he hasn't used the ham sandwich "joke" in today's posts. I got that for lunch, and I've been waiting all day to mention it.
Oh well...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I have to say, I'm VERY disappointed that he hasn't used the ham sandwich "joke" in today's posts. I got that for lunch, and I've been waiting all day to mention it.
Oh well...
You know, you keep knocking him for his poor ham sandwich joke in post after post...
I'm just sayin'
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#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Touche...
I should probably go back to ghosting.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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are you saying that his "ham sandwich" jokes are good?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
are you saying that his "ham sandwich" jokes are good?
Only with Swiss cheese & mayo
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I think it isn't proper to mention something she told you in an email on the board,
I wasnt the only one and I dont care. It didnt hurt anyone and Im sure it didnt offend her so dont get your panties in a bunch. Im sure that is something she told people face to face and would have said to me or anyone else face to face. It didnt effect the outcome of his career and how anybody views them .
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And Jon Dunn!! Also who was the refridgerator with worse feet we signed to back up LCB then then he retired? Bring him in too!
well....... you have the choice of several appliances.
Bob Hallen retired and Ross Tucker just didn't cut it.There was some other player , Alonzo Ephraim, that was literally bagging groceries that did not even make the roster of 53.He failed a drug test.
And Todd Washington.
Here is a link that explains the mess and it was worse than I remember.
http://www.nologoneeded.com/no_logo_need...nsive-line.html
Last edited by Line Judge; 04/10/10 02:03 AM.
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J/C
From the sounds of the posts in this thread I guess some of you know someone in Hank Fraley's family? Not that it matters but here's my thoughts from someone without any knowledge to the personal side some have in this situation but just an overall general view on Mr. Fraley:
I think this is a lateral move, one that was probably cheaper. At one time for the Browns Hank was arguably the best lineman we once had, note the use of once, the Browns are now at a point were depth at certain positions can be had at a cheaper rate and that's my thought here, Hank played well for us, and should have seen the writing on the wall since Heckert let him go prior so he should have known he wasn't an "overall" fit, it's the NFL and no matter what he was told on one day, the next can be different, it is the way of the NFL, this happens all the time.
I wondered why you guys had a 3 page thread on a backup C and it makes more sense now, but overall take out the knowing factor and just think of it in football terms the move makes sense. I have no problem with the move. Go Browns!
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I don't like Hank being told he is safe on the team and then being cut.
That, if it is true, points towards a problem of honesty within the organization that will play itself out in other ways unless it is corrected.
I am glad Hank was able to quickly find another team to play with.
Part of hoping the best for the Browns is wanting the best players you can get. They fit your schemes along with your overall philosophy. I think separating Hank from the team can be accepted to be one of schematic preferences. My understanding is that Hank fit the player personality of virtue and effort that this regime looks for.
I think the question can be asked as to whether a schematic preference at the back up position is worthy of dropping a philosophical match: a player who is an upright character who puts in consistent effort. Further troubling is cutting a player in a way that goes against your own philosophy of honest and fair player management.
While I am happy to see it seems likely they have brought in another philosophical match as his replacement. I still remain interested to see if the tendency towards deception and abrupt displacement of players will play itself out further, potentially harming the organization and disenfranchising / demoralizing the players themselves.
Last edited by Kingcob; 04/10/10 04:17 AM.
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are you saying that his "ham sandwich" jokes are good?
Not replying exclusively to you, but - for the love of God people... enough already. It was annoying at first but come on.... this is the stupidest "joke" ever and yet it keeps getting brought up.
It makes me miss the Couch threads......... 
enough.........
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Here's an Idea,, Don't read them if you don't like them... Loosen up hour shorts man,, this isn't rocket science, we aren't solving the worlds problems here (although some think so from time to time ).. Relax already....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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We really dont know what Hank was told. He could have been told...."WE would really like to keep you" You can desipher that in several different ways. Players know this is a business and things can change....and quickly. There was no hard feelings so you can bet things were left in the conversation with the FO that left a window open to change even though Hank may have felt he was safe. There is always more to it than you will ever hear. 
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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I knew that you couldn't just agree and drop it there.. no no,,not without your general rhetoric about Delhomme and money and how stupid everyone but you is..
Go eat a ham sandwich will ya...
Wow, I do agree 100% that you took the words right out of my mouth, but I prefer Turkey. I also agree the need to call anyone stupid that does not agree with you is a curious charge to level at others. I love some fans on this post who disagree using sound logic and no need to attack fans in disagreement and may Add that it is unfortunate I do not find your posts among those.
bottom line is we all love the Browns and have that in common, and like some families there are siblings who are more than willing to come to verbal blows when any disagreement ensues. And I may agree that while i have questioned the merits of trades and players I do not believe attacking other fans is a worthwhile use of the forum. But I have to admit, being attacked by you Damanshot in such a fashion brings a smile to my face as you better demonstrate my position than any words I can say. 
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Wow, I do agree 100% that you took the words right out of my mouth, but I prefer Turkey.
Wouldn't that be canabalism?
Sorry ... just couldn't resist .........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree you were right there to GOBBLE that joke. And I also agree you illustrate the point I was making in the original post. I understand reading comprehension can be difficult so i will hold out patience you may evolve.
I may add as well that I finally read at the official website in a teleinterview with browns season ticket holders the real reason we dumped Quinn for chump change. I regret my mocking Hillis, It is not his fault that he is the sand covered ice cream in this deal of our QB. Holmgren admitted Mangini just wanted QUINN GONE. he tried to put a smiley face on being on the same page but he finally admitted they did not see eye to eye. My belief is Quinn FORCED Mangini and embarrassed the Coach as he put his house up for sale, fans were threatening boycotts, we were 1-10, Anderson was playing like a bum and Mangini was feeling the wrath. The looks he gave Quinn were malice. Quinn played great vs Detroit and SD and then the OC(maybe) no longer had a TE next to the mummy RT and Vickers left as Quinn''s protective shield and those two great games were not repeated and Quinn was again under siege with crappy blocking. Why abandon a strategy that was bearing great fruit in those two games? I wondered if the success Quinn had angered Mangini even more. There was no logical or tactical reason to leave the horrid rt without TE help or remove Vickers as Quinn played two fine games.
This is NOT about Hillis. I hope he plays well. This is about an angry power move not unlike belichik when he cut kosar when the Browns were in first place in 1993 and replaced him with Todd philcox and the season went over the cliff. Belichik learned from his stupid pigheadedness and went on to become a better coach, I wonder if the same can be said for the King of Queens Mangini.
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