|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
I was thinking while writing a response to the question of Hank Fraley and the hiring of the new center... why I was feeling uncertainty and distrust.
The answer I came up with was centered around the mistrust I felt towards the FO. I don't think this mistrust is unwarranted. Telling a player they are safe with the team, and then cutting them abruptly is a serious sign of dishonesty and disrespect within an organization.
I am curious if the rest of you have felt this way as well or have any thoughts about the way the FO handles its operations.
I think there is evidence to be examined for Mangini over the past year.
To a lesser extent I do not think Holmgren or Heckert can be appropriately examined.
I worry that the abrupt and dishonest release of Fraley is indicative of an FO that is not committed to honest and just treatment of its players. Which will serve to disenfranchise and poison the team as it moves forward.
Time will tell if this pattern continues with the new FO installations. I worry that Mangini will not be able to transition towards higher standards of personal conduct: given his history of front office power plays in 2009.
As an afterthought: I see obvious improvements by subtraction with the removal of Dawn "Ultimatum" Aponte. What a dishonorable spectacle that was.
Last edited by Kingcob; 04/10/10 04:55 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Well, I understand....I feel Mangini has too much say left...Fraley gone, Hall traded, Quinn traded....guys he OBVIOUSLY didn't like or mashed with...some of HIS guys who were as bad or worse AND are more expensive weren't cut or traded though (STClair, Womack, Royal, Barton)....I don't like the early "smell" of it....seems like he got his way with those decisions, Homgren alluded in his pressers that the relationship between players-coaches has to fit....it's a shame that you have to get rid of players because your HC can't "manage" with them...that's part of a coache's job: "managing" different personalities....not asking for more of the same I said the moment we hired Holmgren that there will be friction...I expect that to come up during the season, maybe starting in TC when roster cuts are made and Heckert/Holmgren cut one of Mangini's buddies.....his ego is bigger thann his butt, he won't be a happy trooper and when things go as bad as they are expected to go next season, he will vent some way or the other I'm not sure about Holmgren yet....keeping Mangini was a very, very bad start to his NEW job....many on here forget that from a "structure" perspective NOTHING has changed with this org....we still have 1st timers at President and GM...they "may" have a more credible background but didn't Policy and Savage too? I really have my doubts if Holmgren can become a good President....I still hope he takes over HC duties after the upcoming season and gives up the rest to Heckert (that's IF he proves to have an eye for talent on draftdays) Heckert...well I will wait for draft weekend to say anything good or bad about him....I hope he can enforce his will in the draft room more than Mangini or Holmgren since I think he's the best talent evaluator of the 3...and it's not even close I think. I trust him more than anybody else right now and that's not really a compliment to him, lol I really hope Mangini isn't allowed to say anything...if you ask him about some prospect and who to take, he will probably only ask "can he play ST, can he block and was he an Academic selection?", regardless of position...that's how Mangini obviously "profiled" prospects last year....3 Top 50 Offense picks later and the result was that we needed 11 weeks to get a RB or WR into the Endzone....it can't be stressed enough how clueless this guy is and how much damage he "managed" to accomplish in just 1 offseason here....some facts: 1. he got demoted from King to lame duck HC in just 1 offseason by the man who loved him (Lerner) and couldn't sign him quick enough 2. He hired 2 buddies to the FO...both he had to "sacrifice"...one filed a lawsuit against the Browns. Kokinis was either incompetent for the job or he was run over by Mangini's EGO or maybe a little bit of both...pick your poision....wow, just wow 3. He "overhauled" our whole receiving corps and signed/drafted tons of LBs and DBs and the right side of the line....what did Holmgren/Heckert see as our biggest needs? You guessed it: LB, TE, WR, DBs...and the right side of the line....what a waste of an offseason and draft The man is really a "Genius" because I don't know how he managed to talk Holmgren into keeping him...I suspect he is the most double-faced person on this planet but of course that's just my "conspiracy theory" backed by numerous reports and actions of the man 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 149
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 149 |
Personnaly I cannot see why any of us, as fans, should get all upset and be completely untrusting of our new front office because of business deals that are completely out of our hands and we have no first hand knowledge of. Taking the Frayley issue as you mentioned, how do you or any of use know, without having been in every meeting "Hank" was in, know what was truely said? I have all the respect for Danniel and apprecieate having her communicate with us on the message board, but are we to accept her second hand knowledge of the meetings as the complete story? Even if it is true that Hank was told one week that he was irreplaceable and the next he was given his pink slip, how many hudreds of thousands of times has that same senario played out in our own work place because one week we are told by the front office we are on budget not toworry your staff on Monday and on friday they send down a stack of pink slips and tell you to lay off twenty five people. Personnaly I see it as business, I loved Hank's attitude, game play, and true "Cleveland Blue Collar" attitude, but until I actually have a say in as to whether the team keeps 'em or sends 'em I have to be satisfied with watching, waiting, and cheering from the stands for our teams success. All I can say is hang on because it is either going to be one awsome ride or whe hell of a wreak!!   Go Browns!!
Hears to hoping Dorsey is the Browns Ozzie Newsome.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,850 |
omg.. Hank Fraley is gone.. get over it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
King,
you are making out the Fraley release to be similar to the Night of the Long Knives.
Have you ever changed your mind?
Were you there when the FO "promised" ??
It's no surprise DJ was the first in line to bash the FO. He doesn't need even this much of an excuse to go on a froth at the mouth anti-Mangini conniption.
Wow......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Thanks for NOT fighting my arguments made (any argument I made wrong?, lol)...that says it pretty much all... BTW...I'm stil waiting (6+months and counting) for an actual GOOD pro-Mangini argument...while I name numerous uncontested ones against him....anyone who knows anything about rhetoric knows what this means  If they start fighting the messenger you know the message has "hit" on something... BTW. regarding your reading skills...they obviously ssss...need refinement I bashed Mangini, always did...and turned out I was spot on. I'm on the fence on both Holmgren and Heckert...that's when you read my post properly of course...I'm skeptic about Holmgren but it's too early to tell of course...keeping Mangini was a bad start, but he made up a bit for getting rid of both DA and Quinn... this is a message board and I just voiced my opinion....maybe I should put that in my sig to remind some of you guys about this
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
no amount of debate,logic, evidence is going to change your mind,so why bother?
Wehave been over this before and you still beat that dead horse
Last edited by Line Judge; 04/10/10 07:53 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
So you have no point which debate? there never was one....I make points and get trashed for them, you call that a debate? that's kindergarden Of course you won't change my mind...and I probably won't change yours...I just can't believe how most of the fans can root for something or somebody for absolutely irrational reasons (ok, guess that's the definition of "fan" to begin with, right? fan = homer) and despite numerous arguments against it....it's mind boggling and funny from my point of view...then when said HC, GM whatever gets fired, you're all over him (I call that the Savage-syndrome)....that's hilarious, you act like flags in the wind I fight all of that mostly because I think it's part of the problem....if Browns-fans wouldn't be so dumb about some of this stuff, then Mangini would have been fired, Romeo would have been fired earlier etc etc...homer fans who still buy tickets and merchandise despite yet another 4 or 5 win season and who party EVERY offseason move on the webs will get nothing better....it's like in real life: loyalty is a fine virtue and something everybody admires but it will get abused if you're naive
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
so then you are a genius and everyone else is stupid Gotcha 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
I don't think this mistrust is unwarranted. Telling a player they are safe with the team, and then cutting them abruptly is a serious sign of dishonesty and disrespect within an organization.
While I do believe that is exactly what took place (Hank being told he's safe before getting cut) I will say is that staffing a team like this has to be a rather liquid thing. They need to be able to move and react to things. I don't believe there was any dishonesty to it but rather some kinda change of heart or mind or a different line of thinking was adopted as the correct move. They get paid to make tough decisions.. this had to be one of them.
Hank made out ok.While I don't and didn't like that move, its really the only one that I don't like that the front office has made...
Quote:
I think there is evidence to be examined for Mangini over the past year.
Plenty to banter about, but to concern outselves about it now seems like a waste.. Mangini isn't the top dog anymore, there are at least 2 other guys above him..
Speaking of which:
Quote:
To a lesser extent I do not think Holmgren or Heckert can be appropriately examined.
What are you looking for? Reasons to dislike/distrust them? Or examining thier Method of Operation?
Quote:
I worry that the abrupt and dishonest release of Fraley is indicative of an FO that is not committed to honest and just treatment of its players. Which will serve to disenfranchise and poison the team as it moves forward.
I feel as if I"m defending these guys to you and I don't think they deserve my loyalty just yet.. for no reason other than we haven't seen any results yet.
And we really couldn't have, given that we haven't even seen the draft yet, we haven't even come close to seeing the final roster and we haven't seen the team play one down..
It's like you are looking for things to pick on them about. I think that's exactly like watching a Chef cook a meal and criticizing him before he's had a chance to add in all the ingredients and without you actually tasting the food..
Seems rather premature to me is all I'm saying..
If things unravel, there will be plenty of time to beat the heck out of them.. But today, I think it's WAY to soon to worry...
JMO however
It's also my opinion that they've done some good things as well..
Clearing up the QB situation is the biggest thing I think of. Some would say that further muddied the water, but I say no.., they've cleared the decks, put a couple of Quality/High Character guys in place that know thier roles (they haven't told us, but I"m sure they told them)
And now they can set out to find the right guy for the future. They got rid of two guys that showed flashes of good, but for the most part, weren't able to prove they were the ones to stand up for. (I know that in some folks minds, I'm being easy on DA and BQ, so be it)
They added a nice young RB in trade for one of those QB's Got some other pics for themselves as well. Picked up a couple of solid FA signings in Pashos and Fujita,
Traded a nice but not spectacular LB and a couple of later round picks for two guys they think will help them in the transition from bad team to good one.
On top of the personnel moves, They also had to deal with the 400 lb gorilla in the room.. that being fan distrust. (when it comes to you and a few others that have an ax to grind, they clearly have not succeeded )
I think it's entirely too early to have this discusson.. But again, that's JMO...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
BTW...I'm stil waiting (6+months and counting) for an actual GOOD pro-Mangini argument...while I name numerous uncontested ones against him....anyone who knows anything about rhetoric knows what this means
WOW,, you say it and that makes it gospel,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144 |
Quote:
BTW...I'm stil waiting (6+months and counting) for an actual GOOD pro-Mangini argument...
Holmgren said "he's a good coach". I'll take that over your griping any day.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 301 |
Jury's out until the season and we see wins and losses and how they are handled by the powers that be. All the other talk and debate is just talk and debate. I for one am tired of the talk and debate. I haven't even been into the draft because I feel like my $.02 doesn't amount to a hill of beans anyway. I have taken a stance of reducing stress in my life by not worrying too much about things I cannot control. While I am a fan, this is one of the things I cannot control at this point. Therefore I will reserve my thoughts and emotions until I see tangible results when it actually counts.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,070
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,070 |
Quote:
Personnaly I cannot see why any of us, as fans, should get all upset and be completely untrusting of our new front office because of business deals that are completely out of our hands and we have no first hand knowledge of. Taking the Frayley issue as you mentioned, how do you or any of use know, without having been in every meeting "Hank" was in, know what was truely said? I have all the respect for Danniel and apprecieate having her communicate with us on the message board, but are we to accept her second hand knowledge of the meetings as the complete story?
My thoughts exactly BL.
There's been many moves so far, some we like,some we don't,and some we don't quite get. This is expected in every organization (especially a whole new regime)and at this point in the game it indicates nothing on how successful our FO will or will not be.
It appears Kc your concern is specifically over the Fraley trade which is my least favorite as well. For one,we don't know exactly what went down. We have one side of the story and that's even second hand. From what we do know, money is the most likely reason. With as many needs as this team has I don't think we wanted to spend 2 mil on an aging back-up OL. This board has unknowingly determined that guy-check is a huge drop-off in talent and basically sucks.....time will tell. The fact is he started like 40 something games for the Bengals while they were still a pretty good O and much better than ours.
Bottom line here is that we're in pretty good hands.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
so then you are a genius and everyone else is stupid
Gotcha
Who's "everyone else"? You guys on here? Or every other expert, who is NOT the GM or HC of the Clevelenad Browns? Oh, I know...it's conspiracy theory against the Browns
Guys, as long as we collect 4-5 wins a season you really don't have much of a point here....and in case you have missed it: THAT'S my problem...I don't care how much smarter they are supposed to be....as long as they don't get the job done, they don't get any credit from me
Holmgren/Heckert just started and I'm not throwing them under the bus just yet...if you guys can't read that's really not my problem....but Mangini has sucked and done a lot of damage, you think Lerner paid millions to H/H because Mangini did good?...I called him out way before the thing crashed....now the homers are slowly coming around on his failures I got trashed for when I criticized the moves (FA signings and draft)...I heard the same back then "I'll take his eye over yours" blablabla....aka the dumbest argument in the world...at least get creative or make a freaking argument for a change
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216 |
j/c
I feel this entire thread is very pre-mature.
I liken it as being a juror in a lengthy trial and basing your opinion on the first day of that trial, with little to no evidence being given on that first day, you already have it in your mind that you are leaning toward the defendant being guilty.
At that juncture, evrything said and presented in that trial, you as a juror are jaded. Without having the entire body of evidence, actually haven't even hardly scratched the surface in that regard, you have already started forming your opinion as to their guilt.
This FO hasn't even had its first fraft. We have no clue how this roster will look going into the season. The first snap is still months away.
Until I see some body of evidece as time goes along, I would not even begin to form an opion as it realtes to how I would rate this FO. The evidence I do have to this point, indictes to me we do have the right people, the experience and proven track record that the odds of success are better than we've had since our return.
Until their plan unfolds to me, until I see the product they put on the field and until such time as we see not only this season but next as well, I will not try to pass judgemnet to any degree in regards to rating this FO or how much trust and faith I have in them.
Everyone has the right to do that if they so choose, but not me.
I will however speak out on individual moves that I do not agree with at any given time if I feel it's outlandish, so it's not like I'm going to give them a free pass. But otherwise, I want to let the trial play itself out before passing any kind of judgement.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
Your thoughts on the FO?
We're indisputably a better team now than we were at the end of last season.
So far, so good. Let's see how the Draft goes, then let's see how they look with pads on.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I don't understand why you would feel uncertainty or mistrust..because of Hank Fraley? LOL They got rid of a Ham Sandwich(Quinn) for greater value than he is worth. They got rid of DA and his contract, They brought in two new QB's..one that has had success in this league as a starter and is a veteran leader and has proven he can win. They brought in a backup QB that knows his role and is good with it. Added Two LB's, one from a Superbowl team..the other from a perennial winner. Gave us a quality Stop Gap CB in Sheldon Brown who lays some wood. Rid ourselves of Wimbley and the seamingly endless wait for him to be anything more than average. They are changing the culture from the front office on down. It is hard to change the culture when you retain so many content underachievers at every level. I am on board with them and unless you fans start changing your culture too and leave this one alone and let this plan run its course, things will never change. Just give up the negativity and embrace the fact that we have the best front office and Coaching staff as we ever had here making decisions. They are not building a one year wonder here and it takes time and continuity and consistency to have a strong Franchise for any period of time. Way too early for this type of Thread. JMHO
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,563 |
Quote:
Quote:
so then you are a genius and everyone else is stupid
Gotcha
Who's "everyone else"? You guys on here? Or every other expert, who is NOT the GM or HC of the Clevelenad Browns? Oh, I know...it's conspiracy theory against the Browns
Guys, as long as we collect 4-5 wins a season you really don't have much of a point here....and in case you have missed it: THAT'S my problem...I don't care how much smarter they are supposed to be....as long as they don't get the job done, they don't get any credit from me
Holmgren/Heckert just started and I'm not throwing them under the bus just yet...if you guys can't read that's really not my problem....but Mangini has sucked and done a lot of damage, you think Lerner paid millions to H/H because Mangini did good?...I called him out way before the thing crashed....now the homers are slowly coming around on his failures I got trashed for when I criticized the moves (FA signings and draft)...I heard the same back then "I'll take his eye over yours" blablabla....aka the dumbest argument in the world...at least get creative or make a freaking argument for a change
Lerner spent the money because of how Kokinis blew his job off, not because of how Mangini performed.
Either way, it's too premature to say that Mangini is hurting this team. We need to have actual, real honest to God NFL talent on this team before we begin to disregard the coaching staff. If you want to throw them under the bus, so be it.
The way I see it, Mangini made the very unpopular but correct moves so far outside of some of his own FA's.
you had a good run Hank.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
I am on board with them and unless you fans start changing your culture too and leave this one alone and let this plan run its course, things will never change
OUTSTANDING Comment Loyal,,,,, 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
I said the moment we hired Holmgren that there will be friction...I
Yet there's been none whatsoever yet. There have been numerous moves ..... but nothing nexcept a completely unified front from the Browns.
Quote:
...I expect that to come up during the season, maybe starting in TC when roster cuts are made and Heckert/Holmgren cut one of Mangini's buddies.....
LOL Based on what, exactly? Pure conjecture on your part.
Quote:
I'm not sure about Holmgren yet....keeping Mangini was a very, very bad start to his NEW job....
In your opinion. You appear to be in the minority as far as those who actually cover sports in general, and the Browns in particular are concerned. I can remember a few articles saying that it was a mistake keeping Mangini ... but very few. Now, we know that you dislike mangini ...... so maybe an "IMO" would have been a more appropriate addition to your thought.
Quote:
we still have 1st timers at President and GM
Umm .... Heckert has been a GM for 4 years with the Eagles.
I know ... to you he wasn't "really" GM or something .....
There are so many other parts of your post to dig into .... but frankly, it just isn't worth the time investment. You dislike m
mangini, and now Holmgren because he kept Mangini. (even after you crowed about how he was certainly gone) I get it. I'm just not going to think about your posts all that much anymore. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216 |
Well Damon, the only thing is that it seems like "Pure Football" is becoming a Deli. And there are a few here that I believe start certain threads more to create conflict rather than actually have a point of substance that merrits discussion. More like a "Skip Bayless" wanna be. They seem to like to argue over nothing or to simply stir up conflict than anything of substance.  I choose to read most of it, because, I mean everybody deserves a good laugh once in a while, right?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
I hear ya pit.. I hear ya.. Ya know, it's not that people can't or shouldn't be critical of the FO and the team in general....I dont have a problem with people that question anything. What I have a problem with is when people question something, and then turn their beliefs into fact "Just Cause They Beleive it".. THen they go out and find the nit pickyest little things that they somehow think points to them being right... Then they get mad when nobody tries to argue the point... Now, THAT'S FUNNY.. Truth be told, we all exhibit that tendency from time to time,,, Just that some do it ALL the time...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
There are so many other parts of your post to dig into .... but frankly, it just isn't worth the time investment. You dislike m
mangini, and now Holmgren because he kept Mangini. (even after you crowed about how he was certainly gone) I get it. I'm just not going to think about your posts all that much anymore.
1st off...thanks for the on your 1st sentence quoted here...absolutely hilarious...like "my 3 main anti-Mangini arguments" I made but nobody touches? This is fun...it's so easy to discretid an opinion with tons of arguments made by just saying "you're buh-buh"...that's what I meant with "kindergarden"....this is so bad...I knew why I stopped posting here...the worst part is: the Chat crap on the HP is even worse...I'm starting to realize why Vers gave up on all of ya...you guys prefer to live in LaLaLand...it's ok, we all want the same thing...we just happen to disagree how to get there. Some prefer criticism and a more skepticakl approach (considering our history) and some blind loyalty with after the fact bashing.....really cool game
Oh, and you really can't read btw...which part of "skeptic" and "this is a message board and I just voiced my opinion" didn't you get?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Sorry if we don't fall at your feet with your amazing and impressive arguments of ..... "Because I said so". To quote the guy who just got dumped by the team .... "Now I'm done".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
THen they go out and find the nit pickyest little things that they somehow think points to them being right...
So my 3 points I made are "my believes" and nitpicking? Did I just read that?
I just "believe" Mangini got demoted after firing a clueless puppet-GM with whom he had a terrible offseason? I just dreamt it? WAKE ME UP, pleaseeeee
I'm starting to get why Diam couldn't stand you, lol
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
LaLaLaLa is a great tune isn't it? Buh-buh, where's the crying baby
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587 |
Quote:
omg.. Hank Fraley is gone.. get over it.
lol
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
So my 3 points I made are "my believes" and nitpicking? Did I just read that?
Ahh, so you recognize that you were one of the guys I was speaking of.. Good,, you got the message, but like I said, you won't understand it..
As for diam,, the feeling is mutual..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 70
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 70 |
Pure Football=Pure Drama nowadays.
I guess that can actually go for any part of the board, especially the political threads.
"Every time that I score, I'm going to get the ball and sign it "To Holmgren" and give it to him just so he has the proof that I'm worth every penny"- JC
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 786
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 786 |
I feel the FO is doing a outstanding job. I am overly imressed with what we are doing. We havent drafted a soul and i LOVE what we have done. We have 10 picks to fill around the FA pickups we have and we have filled some big needs with them.  SUPER JOB thus far!!!!!!! Holmgren and Heckert add stabilty and experience to this team for the first time since rebirth. Give it time folks....Give it time.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
Quote:
but Mangini has sucked and done a lot of damage,
While I do think Mangini has his downfalls, I don't see the damage that he's done. Removing players that he didn't see as a fit in his system does not equal damage.
Trading Quinn seems to be one of your damaging moves. To me it was more of moving an unimpressive high draft pick when it was possible to get something in return. Whether you like Hillis and two picks for Quinn is something that some like and some don't. That's not damaging the team.
Like him or not, Mangini managed to bring in low level players and have them produce. Sure it took a season for it to come around, but the proff is in the last five games. A well disiplined team, playing as a team and winning games they are supposed to.
Removing malcontents like Leon in no way "damages" this team. The Winslow trade was one that IMO was made more from a financial aspect then for his personality. It is well known that he was a distraction in the huddle and also in the locker room. He played hard on the field, but his injuries are ones that can end his career way sooner than most.
Mangini inherited a little talent team with two pitiful QBs and a primadonna WR that couldn't catch. Drafted a good young center that will probably anchor his position for quite a few years. Brought in some players familiar with his scheme. Improved the team from 4-12 to 5-11, and beat the Steelers.
I don't see damage, I see a trend of improvement.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,622
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,622 |
For crying out loud... We haven't even taken a snap yet! Let's give them a season and see what we can find to whine about at the end of that season.
Mangini is still here BUT HE IS CLEARLY NOT IN CHARGE.
I too disliked the Quinn trade and Hank being cut BUT I'm willing to let it go...
Here's to a BETTER BROWNS... Go Browns!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
1. No, the Quinn trade wasn't one of his damaging moves...I hate Quinn, he's the worst QB I've ever seen start more than 2 games in a row for the Browns
2. Quinn got traded THIS offseason, not last..you know, when Mangini called the shots
You guys really lack reading skills...it's pretty clear in what context I put the Quinn trade and WHY/WHAT I criticize Mangini for
He signed/drafted over half the roster H/H is taking over...and the only player with above AVG starter ability is Mack and we passed on guys like Crabtree or Sanchez for him and bypassed Oher....if you sign 25+ new players and only 1 of them has some talent, that's a horrible offseason in my book
I'm not whining about the talent he let go (under market value and in BE's case wrong timing....but ok)....it's the "talent" he got us that will set us back and already did statistically last year (and by "eye" it was even worse)...and I thought there's no way it could have gotten worse
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,216 |
 Estrogen overload maybe?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I don't see what the problem is with Mangini. He is cleaning up a mess and is solely responsible for putting us in a good position to maximize in a deep draft this year. Yes Mangini had the foresight to bolster the back end and role players while keeping his eye on the future. He knew it wasn't going to happen in one year with one player. He also knew Quinn was garbage and our QB situation was a bad one. His drafts you say? Let's see..I can see Mack as a Pro-Bowler and definately an anchor for this line for years. Right there makes it a successful draft..wouldn't you say..all the while adding extra picks that could prove to be integral parts of this team last year and more importantly this year. MoMass had a fine year, and with a real QB we might finally get to see what Robiskie can do. Maiva contributed in his rookie year, Benard, Castanzo, Evan Moore did too. He picked up Roth off waivers who will be a starter and showed huge promise. I think he might have missed on Veikune but time will tell. He doesn't have a good record for taking the converted DL into a 3-4 LB. I would say he is the guy that pushed aside an old and slow Jamal Lewis and gave Harrisson his first true shot. He got rid of a headcase in Edwards and Other non team players such as Winslow. You can't do it all in one year, but he is headed in the right direction.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
Quote:
LaLaLaLa is a great tune isn't it?
Buh-buh, where's the crying baby
you need to be suspended.you are a troll
Last edited by Line Judge; 04/10/10 06:15 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 512 |
I like all the moves so far with the exception pf Delhomme, but I will reserve judgement until I see the overall plan. When the Browns start winning I sure hope Django doesn't pull a Diam on us and sticks around and eats his share of crow.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Loyal,, you just gotta quit making sense.. Geesh,, what are we going to do with you.... Oh,, I agree..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,678 |
Quote:
I was thinking while writing a response to the question of Hank Fraley and the hiring of the new center... why I was feeling uncertainty and distrust.
The answer I came up with was centered around the mistrust I felt towards the FO. I don't think this mistrust is unwarranted. Telling a player they are safe with the team, and then cutting them abruptly is a serious sign of dishonesty and disrespect within an organization.
I am curious if the rest of you have felt this way as well or have any thoughts about the way the FO handles its operations.
I think there is evidence to be examined for Mangini over the past year.
To a lesser extent I do not think Holmgren or Heckert can be appropriately examined.
I worry that the abrupt and dishonest release of Fraley is indicative of an FO that is not committed to honest and just treatment of its players. Which will serve to disenfranchise and poison the team as it moves forward.
Time will tell if this pattern continues with the new FO installations. I worry that Mangini will not be able to transition towards higher standards of personal conduct: given his history of front office power plays in 2009.
As an afterthought: I see obvious improvements by subtraction with the removal of Dawn "Ultimatum" Aponte. What a dishonorable spectacle that was.
Get over it.
fraley was a decent player, but a bit long in the tooth.
When building for the future, players like Hank get released all the time.
Now he goes on to the final phase of his career.....a veteran back-up....we are in the phase of finding young up and comers.
We had to find roster spots somewhere, and Fraley was a logical place to start.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Your thoughts on the FO?
|
|
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
![[Linked Image from netanimations.net]](http://netanimations.net/Moving-picture-dog-with-a-bone-animated-gif.gif)
