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Holmgren was brought in to have final say over everything.
If Holmgren sees something in our offensive gameplan, and wants some changes made, yes he should call Mangini and Daboll in and say "Hey, this isn't working, you need to do this"
Let the man do what he was brought here to do, and that's to basically have final say over EVERYTHING we do.
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We have a bit of difference of opinion on the situation/philosophy. My guess is they discussed it and all agreed. Holmgren doesn't strike me as one to say this is what were doing and I dont care if you dont like it. (botch davis/phil savage)
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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You're probably right. That's not how it is.
But, if there's a disagreement, who wins out? Heckert? Mangini? Nope... it's Holmgren.
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He even stated such when he was hired on, that he was the tie breaker.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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If Holmgren isn't going to occasionally go over the top of everyone and say "This is what I wanna do, so we're doing it"...
Then why is he here? 
Amazing...
Quit bellyaching, Top. It's not as if you were ever talking up McCoy or showed any interest. 
It's dicey equating what happens in the NFL to what happens in the business world, but I don't like Holmgren stepping in to get "his guy" if it means pulling rank. This has nothing to do with McCoy. My beef is with any head honcho that does something like this. It reeks of an owner who allows his people to run things, then jumps in at the last second to make a decision that seems odd. It reminds me of something Snyder might do.
Side note: When did Gruden become such a QB guru that Holmgren is going to take his word for it? He went through QB's like Tiger Woods went through............the rough.  To hear Gruden tell it, he liked every QB in this draft. 
I simply don't like Holmgren pulling rank. I applaud his honesty. It's not as though a 3rd round pick is going to make or break the team, but the long-term consequences of the selection go FAR beyond just the pick itself. If we saddle the QB position to McCoy for the long-term, this one, single pick will either be a huge steal and make the Browns a good team, or it's going to set us back several years just the way Savage set us back with Frye.
Huge gamble, pulling rank on this one. 
Just a side note here. Just because I argue with Pitt and others doesn't mean I'm against McCoy. There are a ton of things I really like about the kid, things I like MORE than I ever did with Frye and Quinn. The things I argue against really come down to me not agreeing with how certain intangibles are going to make him a success here. It's the measurables with Colt that dropped him to the 3rd round, and no amount of positive intangibles, the things I really like about him, are going to make his arm and size go away.
Big gamble, this lonely 3rd round selection is.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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He even stated such when he was hired on, that he was the tie breaker.
That isn't the same, dude. Not even close.
There wasn't a "tie" with McCoy. He flat-out said he pulled rank.
HUGE difference.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree with you. That was issue with the staement Peter King said. I am not in favor of him pulling rank throwing his weight around. You got Heckert for a reason. I hope they were on page with it, but it doesn't come across as such. Thats where the debate between me and TD16 started.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Ah, my mistake then. Sometimes hard to follow conversations via message board chatter. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm happy that he at least came forth and told it like it happened. If not, I imagine Heckert and/or Mangini would have taken a lot of flak for that selection, especially if he doesn't pan out. Mangini gets enough flak already.
In the end, I don't think this will stop us from taking a QB next year, or the year after that. After a year, I think the front office and coaching staff will have a pretty good idea of just how far Colt can take his talents. Wouldn't shock me at all if we draft a QB even higher next year if we think his ceiling won't take us to the promise land.
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In the end, I don't think this will stop us from taking a QB next year, or the year after that. After a year, I think the front office and coaching staff will have a pretty good idea of just how far Colt can take his talents.
That would be the ideal situation which I'd hope for.
I simply don't want the keys to the future handed to Colt the way Savage screwed the pooch in the same way with Frye. If he earns it, great. Make him earn it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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In the end, I don't think this will stop us from taking a QB next year, or the year after that. After a year, I think the front office and coaching staff will have a pretty good idea of just how far Colt can take his talents.
That would be the ideal situation which I'd hope for.
I simply don't want the keys to the future handed to Colt the way Savage screwed the pooch in the same way with Frye. If he earns it, great. Make him earn it.
Get off it already...You're insulting...
NOTHING is being handed to anyone...Holmgren already said he doesn't expect McCoy to even play this year...So what's that tell me???
Tells me they will bring him along slowly...No pressure...
It also tells me one HUGE thing...
They will monitor this kid all year long...And by the time the draft rolls around in 2011 they will KNOW if they should make a BOLD move for a Top First Round QB...
It's insulting that u would think these guys are that flippen DUMB to wait 2 and 3 years to see if a 3rd round QB (of which MANY of u guys thought we'd need to trade back into the FIRST ROUND to get) is gonna pan out before we decide to make a bigger move with a higher rated 1st rounder...
Yeah I know u didn't say that...But it's what you're implying...
Go Browns!!!
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It's insulting that I'm concerned they'll hand the keys to a 3rd round QB.
Bullpies 
Just so we're square, it was then also "insulting" that I feared the same thing from Savage.
And here we are................
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well Since you have watched him more than most and have listed his negatives why don't you list what positives you do see.
Go Browns!!![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/BrowniePoints/AndersonSnowPic.jpg)
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I'll be disappointed if McCoy keeps us from drafting a QB in next year's draft.
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I'll be disappointed if McCoy keeps us from drafting a QB in next year's draft.
Don't be insulting. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Well Since you have watched him more than most and have listed his negatives why don't you list what positives you do see.
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He has all the intangibles a team wants. He's going to be well-liked by players, fans, and media alike. He has excellent mobility and will be able to make plays with his feet better than Quinn and Frye did. Those same feet will allow him the ability to find passing lanes behind bigger linemen. He's smart and will continue to get better because he has a natural mind for the game of football. He's the kind of kid that every coach wants to work with. He does have an accurate arm, but with a limited range.
This from earlier in the thread.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Seriously, If McCoy would keep us from taking, say Jake Locker (assuming he continues to develop) I would be furious.
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Seriously, If McCoy would keep us from taking, say Jake Locker (assuming he continues to develop) I would be furious.
Locker is going to be a bum. You heard it here first
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And your opinion will now be disregarded so I don't have to hear it again.
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That's exactly what I'm afraid of.
Having aired my fears, I don't think Holmgren would treat the acquisition of Colt in the same way he was going to treat Bradford, which is to say he was going to hand the keys and the future over to Bradford, but probably not to Colt.
Time will tell.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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And your opinion will now be disregarded so I don't have to hear it again.
You won't have to hear it again, just remember it in 5 years when I come back to say "I told you so" 
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I think alot of that decision will come about where we won't see though.
if Colt is quickly dissecting gamefilm and becomes as good or better at it than the vets Jake and Seneca. and if Colt is killing our hopefully-much-improved defense leading the scout team.
then, I could see our FO taking a look and saying why bother drafting a 1st round QB, we got our guy right here.
however, that is a lot of if's and it's most likely not going to be that cut-n-dry. Holmgren seems to like drafting QBs, so I don't think he has the ego that would stop him from drafting a high QB next year if he felt we needed one just because he spent a 3rd rounder this year.
#gmstrong
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Good teams stick to their board...losers go with "gut feelings" and "fate"...don't like hearing that...scouts and Heckert work hard setting up a board and the Walrus pulls a "fate" pick...and is even proud talking about it....
Perhaps you missed the part where we had identified the OT and DT that we wanted according to our board.. but a couple picks before ours, the DT was taken... he was no longer there... the plan HAD to change at that point... should we have possibly reached for our next highest rated DT? I don't know.
For all of the griping and whining and complaining that I have endured on this board for all these years about how the Browns can't go get the right FO guy, we need somebody with experience, we need somebody with the jewelry, we need this, we need that... so we go get that guy and the first time he exercises a little authority people are all up in arms... absolutely amazing. 
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You remind me of Skip Bayless.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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You remind me of Skip Bayless.
Because I don't like Mike Brown or Jake Locker?
Care to tell me how that's Skip Bayless-like?
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I am not in favor of him pulling rank throwing his weight around. You got Heckert for a reason.
We got Holmgren for a reason too. Isn't he the guru of finding and/or developing QBs?
yebat' Putin
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I am not in favor of him pulling rank throwing his weight around. You got Heckert for a reason.
We got Holmgren for a reason too. Isn't he the guru of finding and/or developing QBs?
Nope, he's just here to be the poster boy and sell suites
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Hopefully we won't be in the position where we will have to draft Jake Locker.
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They had picks 85 and 92. They had their two guys lined up from about the 70th pick on -- Kentucky defensive tackle Corey Peters and Arizona State tackle Shawn Lauvao. In the draft room, president Mike Holmgren, GM Tom Heckert and coach Eric Mangini, along with a few of the scouts, monitored the draft. Colt McCoy kept sliding.
At number 83, two spots before the Browns were going to pick, Atlanta GM Dimitroff picked Peters, the defensive tackle the Browns had in their sights at 85.
How did they not stick to their board when the guy they wanted was gone and the next player on it, they got later???
They had McCoy on their board somewhere but wanted him to fall to them..
Exactly... they still got one the #1 guy on their board at the time and picked up a QB that the Prez wanted... I like the pick... though I have my reservations, I feel he has a huge upside... if he fails, I don't think it'll be a huge deal because he was a 3rd rounder... I agree with Toad that I would prefer to get starters in the 3rd round, but I think Colt will be able to be a contributor to this team, and I seriously think in a year or two he'll be starting.
<><
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Seriously, If McCoy would keep us from taking, say Jake Locker (assuming he continues to develop) I would be furious.
As I always say watch what happens during the season and the most important need will surface quickly..
To get Locker,the Browns will have to be in the top 5 again...U want that again??
But looking at it from MH eyes he was ready to go after Bradford..if the Browns were in a postion to go after JL an he felt the same way he did about Bradford it's possible he could try to get him..but I think whats more likely is them letting a QB fall to them.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 04/26/10 01:29 PM.
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I am not in favor of him pulling rank throwing his weight around. You got Heckert for a reason.
We got Holmgren for a reason too. Isn't he the guru of finding and/or developing QBs?
You really need to quit bringing common sense into a QB thread, it's just not appropriate...
#GMSTRONG
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You've hung your hat on Colt "being the winningest QB in the history of the NCAA" to somehow prove ............what? That he's a winner? All I did was show you another winner.
Yet now, you want to bring up comp percentage when I never argued for Dorsey in any way.
There's only one of us reaching..........and it ain't me, Pitt. 
I never hung my hat on any "single" ingrediant Toad. I hung my hat on the sum of all the ingrediants in the recipe as a whole. One of several of those ingrediants was that he's a "proven winner". So you keep reaching Toad.
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But if we want to use your template, then I'll say that McCoy is a bigger loser than Dorsey. Afterall, Dorsey is the winningest QB of all time with a winning percentage of .974.
Being the only ingrediant Dorsey brought to the table.
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The obvious point is that winning college games means very little to the scouts.
Little, but not simply "nothing". You have to look at "how they won", who was the biggest contributer as to why they won. You look at several ingrediants in a QB. If "he's the one" reponsible for the most part in those wins, let's say by throwing for over 70% accuracy, then being a winning QB holds a little more credance.
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I'm not. The REAL question is why are you comparing their accuracy numbers? I must have missed it where someone was arguing that Dorsey was more or less accurate than Colt.
You missed a lot more than that. You pulled a single issue out of the overall picture and compared him to a QB that isn't even remotely close to his skill set. And you know that.
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You still talking about accuracy? 
I'm saying that McCoy winning more games than any other QB is a bogus stat to hang your hat on.
You know who had the record before McCoy?
David Greene.
Alot of good that did him, and I rest my case.
If we're going to talk about "reaching," if I see one more person use "McCoy" and "Montana" in the same sentence...............
It's what's "possible" versus what's "likely." The odds are against McCoy, even if I'm rooting for him
Problem being, you haven't made any case to rest.
Colt has several ingrediants you simply avoid talking about or bring up because you didn't get "your boy".
Colt has the accuracy, the mobility, the leadership and the winning under his belt to make him a pretty good damned package. He has a quick release and after seeing him on Grudens QB school, it's pretty obvious he can go through his progressions and read D's pretty well.
The only case you seem to have at all is that he "doesn't throw a tight spiral consistantly". Seems to me if that's what you "rest your case on", you really don't have a case Toad.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Where did I say anything that would suggest I want to pick in the top 5. If we passed on Locker because of McCoy, I would be furious. Nothing else to it.
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Where did I say anything that would suggest I want to pick in the top 5. If we passed on Locker because of McCoy, I would be furious. Nothing else to it.
It all depends though. If McCoy has progressed to the point that we are comfortable with him starting, would we be better off with A.J. Green(just a suggestion) and McCoy, or Locker and McCoy?
I love Locker as a pro quarterback, but I feel you need to wait to see how Colt progresses before deciding if we want to draft a quarterback next year.
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I didn't say U said that..but the reality is Locker is going to be a top 5 QB unless he gets hurt or bombs out.. I don't want to even be sniffing his way if at all possible because it means we're sucking again.
Thats my angle..nothing more..
Now if they do suck again and the QB play is putrid..then thats that..but I doubt if McCoy stops the Browns from drafting a better QB..I just don't see that happening..not with JD being at the end of his career..
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Seriously, If McCoy would keep us from taking, say Jake Locker (assuming he continues to develop) I would be furious.
Our braintrust, led by our QB guru that we are paying $50 million now will have Colt in Berea for an entire year to watch and observe to determine whether QB is a need next year or not..
I think it's funny that people are already casting this shadow over Colt McCoy because him being here might lead us to pass on Jake Locker next year... personally I hope we can pass on Locker because McCoy just looks that good.... but that's just me.
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It's not "just you" DC. It would be great for the Browns if Colt develops into the kind of QB that when next year roles around, you don't even think of taking a QB in the first five rounds! That would be the ideal situation for everybody concerned IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Hopefully he's our starter in 2011 cuz I don't want him to sit more than one year. I know it didn't hurt Rodgers in Green Bay but I don't wanna sit a QB for two seasons.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong ----------------- 2023: The year we got a legit D.
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Hopefully he's our starter in 2011 cuz I don't want him to sit more than one year. I know it didn't hurt Rodgers in Green Bay but I don't wanna sit a QB for two seasons.
Rodgers sat because he was behind Favre.. Kolb sat behind McNabb.. McCoy will be behind either Wallace or Delhomme.. or both I suppose.
and if we're winning with either Delhomme or Wallace,, then I've got no problem at all with McCoy sitting..
#GMSTRONG
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Yes I know who they sat behind. But we're talking about Delhomme and Wallace here, not Favre and McNabb. Let me explain a bit further. I'm going by reasonable expectations; if we head into 2011 and neither Delghomme or Wallace are playing well (or McCoy doesn't appear to be progressing fast enough) then yeah, we let Wallace or Jake continue to play. But if they aren't and McCoy looks solid, that will be the time to turn over the reins to Colt... because (hopefully) in 2011 we'll be ready to make a serious push that season - and into 2012, 2013 - and he'll need the experience. I dunno... maybe he'll turn out to be garbage. Who knows?
Last edited by lampdogg; 04/26/10 07:54 PM.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Browns 3rd Round Pick I: Colt
McCoy (QB)
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