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Quote:
I agree that you firmly believe that but Quinn is a bust after 12 games. While you are ready to play make believe that a 35yo broke down nag who has tossed 24 ints in his last 12 games and only the same number of TDs will be fine. Quinn will outgun Jake hands downs. Mangini will be T O A S T.
You're assuming Quinn will even play.....
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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what many of us have been saying for years, despite quinn not seeing the field. if he was good enough, he would've made a case to play. he didn't even win the lame qb competition last year.
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It sucks to see it happening this way, particularly because it means that things didn't work out better for the Browns... but Quinn is fast approaching "Last Chance" territory and could well be out of the league altogether in a year or two.
He can't live off his hype any longer. His new team gave him a vote of no confidence by trading up for Tebow (of all people!) and he's already been rumored in trades to Jax which would be his 3rd team in 4 months if it happens.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
It sucks to see it happening this way, particularly because it means that things didn't work out better for the Browns... but Quinn is fast approaching "Last Chance" territory and could well be out of the league altogether in a year or two.
He can't live off his hype any longer. His new team gave him a vote of no confidence by trading up for Tebow (of all people!) and he's already been rumored in trades to Jax which would be his 3rd team in 4 months if it happens.
Chris Simms is still in the league (well, he is actually fighting Quinn right now for that distinction). Quinn should stick in the league as a backup for quite a few years if he's willing to bounce around 
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what many of us have been saying for years, despite quinn not seeing the field. if he was good enough, he would've made a case to play. he didn't even win the lame qb competition last year.
That is the distinction that some people fail to see. Quinn had 3 years to impress someone ... anyone .... with some aspect of his development. He failed to do so. He looked like a journeyman QB on the field. He was no better than Charlie Frye. In fact, Frye might have been a better QB than Quinn. (even right off the bat) That's really saying something too .... if anyone remembers how I felt about Frye as a QB.  Quinn had a year and a half to watch ... learn .. and prepare to become the starting QB for this team. Then he had another year and a half to take the job and make it his. He failed to do so. It happens. Players bust in this league all the time. God knows we've seen our share, plus some.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not defending him, because he is not longer a Brown, but this made me chuckle Quote:
Quinn had a year and a half to watch ... learn .. and prepare to become the starting QB for this team.
He sat and watched DA. Might as well put him on a deserted island in Antarctica for 1-1/2 years. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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How do QBs learn on th sidelines?
They learn by watching the good and bad ... and by diagnosing the bad, and knowing and understanding "what happened" on the field vs "what should have happened".
Quinn had a better path to success than some QBs get. He got to sit, watch, observe, analyse, and prepare. he wasn't thrown into the fire. He didn't get an ideal team around him ... but that rarely happens right off the bat with 1st round QBs anyway.
Cmpared to Tim Couch ... Charlie Frye ..... Akili Smith ... and so many other young QBs .... he received quite a lot of help before being thrown into the fire.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wasn't saying your wrong, or ridiculing your reply, but the image in my mind when I think of learning on the sidelines is seeing RIGHT and wrong, and learning, and it was amusing to think of watching DA, and wondering when you would see the RIGHT. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
How do QBs learn on th sidelines?
They learn by watching the good and bad ... and by diagnosing the bad, and knowing and understanding "what happened" on the field vs "what should have happened".
Quinn had a better path to success than some QBs get. He got to sit, watch, observe, analyse, and prepare. he wasn't thrown into the fire. He didn't get an ideal team around him ... but that rarely happens right off the bat with 1st round QBs anyway.
Cmpared to Tim Couch ... Charlie Frye ..... Akili Smith ... and so many other young QBs .... he received quite a lot of help before being thrown into the fire.
Adding to this, THE most important part of being in the NFL as it pertains to QB's learning is simple film study and..................get ready for it people....................COACHING!
Most fans err in their thinking that the moment when a QB throws the ball is where it's at. Sure, that's the "moment of truth" but a QB learns (or doesn't learn) what he needs to know by watching film in order to absorb all the things that lead up to the moment before the ball is snapped. No QB can call a play in the huddle, then walk mind-numb up to the center, take the snap, and throw. In spite of the fact that he had really strong coaching (there isn't a dumb coach in the NFL) he never absorbed the things taught to him. That's why he would check-down too early. That's why he'd throw passes into double-coverage. That's why he wasn't personally prepared.
In short, that's why he failed.
Some guys have it. Some don't. Maybe Quinn can figure it out in time. The odds say he can't. But teams know a QB should make major strides in his first couple of years REGARDLESS of whether or not he's taking snaps during real games.
Anyone with an ounce of sense should have realized by now that the old adage saying a QB can sit for a year and learn before playing exists for a reason. Sure, some QB's can come right in and play. Some can't. But they didn't just make up that ideal and apply it without reason.
/rant off.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I wasn't saying your wrong, or ridiculing your reply, but the image in my mind when I think of learning on the sidelines is seeing RIGHT and wrong, and learning, and it was amusing to think of watching DA, and wondering when you would see the RIGHT.
Flor...When Quinn was drafted in 2007, he had a golden opportunity to become the Browns starting QB as a rookie. His competition for the job was Charley Frye and Anderson, but Quinn held out for more money and missed 10 days of practice.
Still, Quinn's chances improved when Charley Frye was traded after one start. At that point, I figured Quinn should be able to win the job by mid-season...but he didn't.
You might want to claim that Quinn had nothing to learn by watching Anderson, but to do so is to ignore the facts. Quinn could not take the starting job from Anderson because Anderson's performance in 2007 was pretty damn good...completing 56% of his passes, 3787 yds, 29 TD passes, 19 Ints, QB rating of 82.5, QBing the Browns to a 10 wins season.
In 2008, Quinn had the advantage of an entire training camp but was unable to take the starting job away from Anderson. Now if you want to claim that for the first half of the 2008 season, Quinn was unable to learn from Anderson by watching him from the sidelines...that I would agree with...Anderson stunk.
Quinn got his chance to start half way through 2008 but his performance mirrored Anderson's, both completing 50% of their passes with a QB rating of 66% with equal number of TDs/Ints. But Quinn only lasted 3 games before going on IR, done for the season.
In 2009, Quinn won the starting job going 2-7 as the starter with similar performance numbers, comp 53%, QB rating of 67% and again ended the season on IR. Quinn had his opportunities but did not perform in a way that would make anyone believe he could be anything but a mediocre QB.
If Quinn is going to succeed as starting NFL QB, he needed a change to make him refocus, IMO. I have never seen a QB more gun shy about going downfield with on passing plays, preferring to checkdown. Was that due to a lack of confidence in himself or was it the coaching he was receiving?
A change of teams should either help to fix Quinn's problem, "appearing" to be afraid to go down field with his passes or it will expose him as being afraid to go downfield with his passes. A change in teams/coaching might be the only thing that saves Quinn's NFL career. JMO, but if I were Quinn, I would be trying to learn as much as possible while standing on the sidelines.
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I would also add that the odds of a 1st round guy failing with one team and then moving onto another team and being succesful are minimal.
If we look back at 1st round "busts" in the past 10-12 years .... how many left their original team and became successful elsewhere? Tommy Maddox? Maybe. Kerry Collins? Maybe. Anyone else?
From 1995 to 2007, the following 1st round QBs were cut by their drafting team.
Collins
Druckenmiller
Leaf
Couch
Smith
Culpepper
McNown
Vick
Carr
Harrington
Ramsey
Leftwich
Boller
Russel
Quinn
How many of these guys would anyone in their right mind rush out to sign?
The following were traded:
McNabb
Pennington
Campbell
Cutler
McNabb should still have a couple of years left. Pennington has been running on borrowed time for a couple of years. Cutler was an abject failure last year. Campbell remains to be seen.
So .... it seems that a 1st round QB must succeed with his drafting team .... because he rarely does so elsewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree with you overall point. But I would take the 2000-02 and 2008 Kerry Collins over any QB we've had since our return in 1999. It's not even an argument.
Also, don't forget, in his 2nd year in the league Collins took his team to the NFC Championship.
Another thing, Vick would still be the QB for the Falcons if it wasn't for the dog fighting. Just saying.
Just to be clear Pennington was not traded. He was cut after the Jets traded for Favre.
Like I said, I agree with your overall point, just a few things I see differently.
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Just stop mac. My first comment to Ytown was a quip on the idea of a QB sits and watches, and I even said the comment made me chuckle. Nothing I said was intended to be support for Quinn or any QB, just a humorous reply to something that if you sit back and envision the scenario, it made me chuckle. Like Lebron James sitting for 1-1/2 years watching and learning from Gary Coleman.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Wasn't sure where to stick this, but since Holmgren commented on McCoy I'll put it here. Holmgren was on Mike & Mike in the Morning this morning (5/7).
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One thing I believe helps a young QB, no matter who they may be, is a veteran and solid back-up that are familiar with a system and consistancy within that system.
We have that now. Which I believe helps the odds of success with a young QB immensely. Consistancy and experience surrounding a young guy is the optimum situation IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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LOL I guarantee you,, someone will listen to that Mike and Mike interview with Holmgren and come away thinking two things.. 1. Mangini will be the scape goat 2. Holmgren has a 15 year rebuilding plan 
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His rebuilding plan will be complete as soon as we draft Joe Thomas Jr. to anchor the left side of the OL. 
yebat' Putin
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I thought that was to be expected, not predicted. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I would have to agree that to have Mangini be a star and Quinn wash out would mean great things for the Browns and bad things for Denver and that would make me very happy yet I that I do not share your delusions about Jake and Mangini and your Quinn hate separates our opinions and we have total agreement there.
Also Holmgren and the new GM are saving Mangini from his stupidity regarding personnel decisions so there is still a glimmer for the king of Queens. As far as Quinn, I still wish we would have let him blossom as our QB so we agree to disagree. If Mangini lights it up I will be both astounded and happy, unfortunately I lack your blind faith.
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I guess I just don't understand why Holmgren, a person even you think is pretty good at what he does would keep Mangini if he thought Mangini was as destructive as you seem to think? It almost sounds as if you think Holmgren kept him around as a fall guy if needed...a insurance policy if you will to buy a little more time for him and possibly Heckert. If that is why Holmgren kept Eric, well, that doesn't make Holmgren look all that swift in my eyes. That means he is more interested in his paycheck v getting the team right. No, I will continue to think Holmgren talked football with the guy and realized the guy has a clue and has skills and didn't buy in to the stuff written in the NY Daily News. As for Quinn, he had his shot and didn't do anything with it. Now he is in Denver where he will eventually flounder in favor of Tebow, but that is another team and other teams player, so I don't have much desire to continue to talk about him. No blind faith here....just faith that Holmgren made the correct decision. If Mangini fails, that reflects on Holmgren. He had his chance at cutting ties but elected to keep Mangini as his head coach, so as far as I am concerned, it is Holmgrens hire. Any failure is Holmgrens failure, so maybe you need to focus on that just a bit if you want to talk about poor choices and blind faith. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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just clicking...
Maybe Holmgren actually believes what he told the media and fans when he said, “it’s not fair” to come in and fire a coach after one season.
If I had to guess, I believe Holmgren was telling the truth when he made that comment and after reviewing the situation in Cleveland, Holmgren felt he could work with Mangini for a year to see if he could mold Mangini according to his principles.
I'm not the first one to say this, but Mangini seems much more comfortable with Holmgren hear. Mangini is not a dumb coach..but is a bit stubborn about some of his methods and ways. Mangini made light of some of his screw ups last season, obviously understanding he needed to change some things.
The key to Mangini's success as the Browns head coach will be how the offense performs. The defense gelled toward the end of the season and the offense did just enough to win some games.
Mangini's area of expertise is defense...Holmgren's level of expertise is the offense. Holmgren brought his OC from Seattle (2000-2009) to Cleveland as a Senior Adviser to Holmgren, to help Brian Daboll, who was obviously in over his head, most of last season.
Holmgren and Daboll must have come to an agreement with Brian willing to accept the help Mike wanted to bring in. Holmgren has some experience with molding coaching staffs and must feel it was better to attempt to work with Mangini and his coaching staff rather than rip it all up and start anew.
I hope it works out, but if it does not, Holmgren will have time to put together a coaching staff to replace the parts he does not want, perhaps the entire staff, next season.
To those with hats of tin foil, it might look like Holmgren kept Mangini to be a fall guy or that Holmgren is only in Cleveland for a paycheck...
...maybe it all boils down to Holmgren, believing what he said...it would not be fair to fire Mangini after only one year...especially after the way the team finished the season.
...Holmgren and Mangini must of had a meeting of the minds about the changes that would be taking place with Holmgren and Heckert running the show.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I fully believe he feels it isn't fair....but life isn't always fair.
Bottom line is if MH didn't feel Mangini was a good coach and could get it done, I can't believe MH would have kept him.
Mangini more or less interviewed with Holmgren. While Holmgren didn't technically hire Mangini, for all intents and purposes he did by keeping him.
The only other explaination is Lerner somehow said Mangini had to stay....and I don't believe that either.
First, Lerner has no history of meddling, and I doubt Holmgren would have taken the position had Lerner told him who had to coach the team.
I do agree that Mangini seems more at ease in this set-up....maybe an indication the guy wasn't as power hungry as depicted in the press, or at minimum isn't this unyielding despot, unwilling to work with people.
At any rate, I think with a blending of the Holmgren tree and the Belicheck tree, we should probably expect to see the Browns make a turn around and start heading to the top.
No matter how much all of us might disagree on various subjects, I doubt many will disagree with that.
Go Browns....it's going to be a fun season on the lakefront.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Holmgren felt he could work with Mangini for a year
I hope to hell that isn't accurate. I hope he felt he could WIN with Mangini for the long haul.. if he was only speaking of a year.. then it's a wasted year IMO.
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I'm not the first one to say this, but Mangini seems much more comfortable with Holmgren hear
LOL,, he kinda sounded relieved in he first presser where He, Holmgren, Heckert and the guy we got from Miami all were on stage together..
Asked about the situation, Mangini said (paraphrasing) " I"m glad I'm not the only one up here anymore"
When I look back over the last 5 months, for me that was the turning point for his attitude change.. He seems way more relaxed.. Actually, he's a funny guy.. good one liners. and he actually has something to say. Doesn't seem nearly as guarded as he was before.
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...Holmgren and Mangini must of had a meeting of the minds about the changes that would be taking place with Holmgren and Heckert running the show.
No doubt about it..
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Damanshot
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I will make one correction to that which i neglected in my previous post.....it isn't just Holmgren and Heckert.....it's a trio....Mangini has to be included in the mix......it's a 3 headed monster.
I think we have already seen it where one guy yields to the wishes of the others...it's how a team works.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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i have to believe that Holmgren thought that Mangini was not only a coach he thought he could win with ... but that he thought that Mangini was "The" right coach fir the Cleveland Browns.
If Holmgren was going to bring in one of "his" guys ... it would make no sense to commit another year to Mangini's system ... to the 3-4 defense (which none of the members of his coaching tree run) or to allow Mangini to keep his coaching staff together.
If Holmgren was going to dump Mangini, he would have done so this year. After all ..... 5-11, with limited talent ..... who could blame him for another "tear down" at that point ..... and if it would have taken a 3-4 year plan? With his track record, who would have blinked at that? Most fans would have said "OK, 3-4 years and we'll have an annual playoff contender ..... I can wait for that".
In many ways, Hiolmgren took the harder route. He stuck with a guy who he didn't initially choose .... and commited to him. I doubt that we see any change at Head Coach for (at least) the next 3 years unless something really horrific and totally out of character for Mangini were to occur.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I do agree that Mangini seems more at ease in this set-up....maybe an indication the guy wasn't as power hungry as depicted in the press, or at minimum isn't this unyielding despot, unwilling to work with people.
I'm sure Holmgren had to find out for himself whether Mangini was the tyrant the press made him out to be, before he could decide on retaining him this season.
I believe Mangini method of coaching is a mirror of Belichick's style. What Holmgren needs to find out...can Mangini modify his style enough to cooperate and learn from Holmgren?
Holmgren must feel that he can work with Mangini and is willing to give it a try for a year. Face it, Mangini knows if he can't operate with Holmgren's advise, he's gone after the season...so there is great incentive for Mangini to accept some changes...whatever they might be.
Do not get the idea that the Browns are going straight to the top...they are not. Anything near an 8-8 record will be considered progress. Again, the big hurdle for the Browns is an offense that scores enough points and controls the ball long enough to keep the defense on the bench.
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I think you are over working it,..
it's simple,, they sat down, discussed what happened, discussed what Holmgren would like to see happen, shared ideas, tossed it around and came to a meeting of the minds..
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Quote:
Holmgren felt he could work with Mangini for a year
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope to hell that isn't accurate. I hope he felt he could WIN with Mangini for the long haul.. if he was only speaking of a year.. then it's a wasted year IMO.
daman...I wrote exactly what I wanted ... it is accurate in that as far as Holmgren is concerned, this is a one year try out for Mangini.
Holmgren meant what he said about firing a coach after just one year, so he is going to give Mangini another year to see if the team can improve to Holmgren's expectations.
If the Browns don't do well under Mangini this season, I doubt that Holmgren would stick with him another year. If Holmgren rips the coaching staff up after this season and hires the guys he wants to coach...so be it...no one can say Holmgren did not give Mangini a chance.
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daman...I wrote exactly what I wanted ... it is accurate in that as far as Holmgren is concerned, this is a one year try out for Mangini.
well Mac,, if that's true (and I don't believe it is) then Holmgren is an idiot and should be fired on the spot., it's a dumb idea if that's what he did..
#GMSTRONG
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I think you are over working it,..
it's simple,, they sat down, discussed what happened, discussed what Holmgren would like to see happen, shared ideas, tossed it around and came to a meeting of the minds..
I agree, nor do I have any illusion we are going straight to the top.....It's a process that is going to take a few seasons....but as Mac said.....8 wins isn't out of the question.....with some breaks....9 wins isn't out of the question.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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but as Mac said.....8 wins isn't out of the question.....with some breaks....9 wins isn't out of the question.
No question.. this could be a fun year..
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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daman...I wrote exactly what I wanted ... it is accurate in that as far as Holmgren is concerned, this is a one year try out for Mangini.
well Mac,, if that's true (and I don't believe it is) then Holmgren is an idiot and should be fired on the spot., it's a dumb idea if that's what he did..
Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini...one and done...rather than basing his decision on results?
If Mangini's team does not produce the wins you expect, then Holmgren is an "idiot"?
Daman...Holmgren is not God...Holmgren is not a psychic!...he cannot look into a crystal ball and know how Mangini is going to adjust to the changes that Holmgren is making.
There is no way for anyone to look into the future and know how Mangini will perform as a HC when paired with Holmgren, as his boss.
I'm a firm believer that the best way for Holmgren to evaluate Mangini is based on "results". Let him coach a year under Holmgren and see how Mangini and his coaching staff performs.
BTW...the results I'm talking about are not necessarily Wins and Losses...but how well Mangini and his staff coaches.
If Holmgren is not happy with what he sees from Mangini after one season and decides he needs to bring in his guys, to coach...so be it. But Holmgren can't know for sure how this is going to work out without giving Mangini a chance to coach for one season.
If Mangini makes it past this season, it should only get better...that is my hope.
By Holmgren giving Mangini a chance to prove himself and evaluating the coaching staff based on results
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,857 |
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Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini
OK,, You show me one time I've said he should have fired Mangini.., Show me ONE TIME..
You are ticking me off Mac.. I hate it when people put words in my mouth to prove a point. There is probably a word for that action but I'm way to ticked to think clearly at the moment..
If you would take your eyes out of your private parts you would see that what I'm actually saying is this.
IF MH KEPT MANGINI WITH THE THOUGHT OF THIS BEING A 1 YEAR ARRANGMENT (as you say) THEN MH IS AN IDIOT.
What that means (so you don't have to try and read between the lines) is this
Keeping Mangini as a scape goat should things go wrong is another idiotic concept floated by some. if that's what MH did, he won't succeed in the long run because he's not using the brains we all assume he has..
If he thought for one second that Mangini was a 1 year guy, he should have canned him and commenced the rebuilding process in earnest in January. Otherwise it's a wasted year..
From a fan stand point, that would have been easy to sell given the record last season.. dispite the comments MH has made about 1 year not being enough.
All he would have had to do is say that he and Mangini talked at length, didn't find the necessary common ground on which to move forward, so we parted ways...
You are thinking about this way to much.. it is what it is,,
Can Mangini still get fired after the season.. Sure..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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just clicking...
Maybe Holmgren actually believes what he told the media and fans when he said, “it’s not fair” to come in and fire a coach after one season.
If I had to guess, I believe Holmgren was telling the truth when he made that comment and after reviewing the situation in Cleveland, Holmgren felt he could work with Mangini for a year to see if he could mold Mangini according to his principles.
I'm not the first one to say this, but Mangini seems much more comfortable with Holmgren hear. Mangini is not a dumb coach..but is a bit stubborn about some of his methods and ways. Mangini made light of some of his screw ups last season, obviously understanding he needed to change some things.
The key to Mangini's success as the Browns head coach will be how the offense performs. The defense gelled toward the end of the season and the offense did just enough to win some games.
Mangini's area of expertise is defense...Holmgren's level of expertise is the offense. Holmgren brought his OC from Seattle (2000-2009) to Cleveland as a Senior Adviser to Holmgren, to help Brian Daboll, who was obviously in over his head, most of last season.
Holmgren and Daboll must have come to an agreement with Brian willing to accept the help Mike wanted to bring in. Holmgren has some experience with molding coaching staffs and must feel it was better to attempt to work with Mangini and his coaching staff rather than rip it all up and start anew.
I hope it works out, but if it does not, Holmgren will have time to put together a coaching staff to replace the parts he does not want, perhaps the entire staff, next season.
To those with hats of tin foil, it might look like Holmgren kept Mangini to be a fall guy or that Holmgren is only in Cleveland for a paycheck...
...maybe it all boils down to Holmgren, believing what he said...it would not be fair to fire Mangini after only one year...especially after the way the team finished the season.
...Holmgren and Mangini must of had a meeting of the minds about the changes that would be taking place with Holmgren and Heckert running the show.
This is an EXCELLENT post and I may add elaborates any any points i may have made. I think the defining point is that while mangini is no fall guy, he does have this year to prove himself or he is done.
As far as Quinn getting his chances and how fair they may or may Not have been the fact is Quinn has a chance to prove all that in Denver. Should he become nothing but a serviceable journeyman ala Charlie Frye, the Quinn detractors look correct in their assessment yet should he shine in Denver I would say the goat horns fit as nicely.
As far as mcCoy, he will have something Quinn NEVER had: a set of eyes judging, helping, assessing his development. Holmgren is firmly in this kids corner, something Quinn Never had in Cleveland. Yet should Quinn fail in Denver I will easily admit my forecast of the talents of our former QB were amiss yet until I am proven wrong, no amount of blather will sway my viewpoint.
But since the king of Queens{Mangini} wanted Quinn out and we Gave him away for Hillis who will be a trivia question years later( forgotten): like who did the Browns trade for Earnest Byner to Washington? Mangini better hope Jake is not as shot as I think he is and Quinn does well because he has burned a lot of fan goodwill.
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810 |
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Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini
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OK,, You show me one time I've said he should have fired Mangini.., Show me ONE TIME..
You are ticking me off Mac.. I hate it when people put words in my mouth to prove a point. There is probably a word for that action but I'm way to ticked to think clearly at the moment..
If you would take your eyes out of your private parts you would see that what I'm actually saying is this
Daman...show me where I put words in your mouth?
I don't know why you run around looking for an issue to get upset about then when you can't find anything, you create something, such as I'm a scoundrel for putting words in your mouth.
Just one problem...SELECTIVE EDITING BY DAMAN, AGAIN...
What I wrote was this..."Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini...one and done...rather than basing his decision on results?"
Daman...do you see the question mark you left out, to make it appear like I was making a statement instead of asking a question?...the sentence you tried to make an issue out of, was a question from me to you...not me attempting to put words in anyone's mouth.
I really don't understand what the problem is...Holmgren did not believe it was right to fire Mangini after just one season...you seem to agree with Holmgren's decision...true or no?
...but if MH does stick with Mangini for one year and it does not work out and MH fires him, you are on record as saying that Holmgren should be fired and he's an idiot.
I never took Holmgren's announcement that Mangini would coach the Browns in 2010 for anything but a promise of one year and never a long term commitment to Mangini.
Here is Holmgren's Jan 7, 2010 statement about keeping Mangini..."I'm happy to announce that Eric Mangini will return as head coach of the Cleveland Browns in 2010,"
...no commitment beyond 2010.
I tried to point out that Holmgren is not God nor a psychic and has no way of knowing if Mangini is going to work out unless he is allowed to coach for a year under Holmgren. I thought everyone understood that Holmgren was not making a commitment beyond 2010.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,857 |
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Daman...show me where I put words in your mouth?
Right here:
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Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini
I can't believe you asked me that question and the answer was in your own post.., What the hell are you smokin man... Geesh....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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Just to chime in, I can't believe that a guy with Holmgren's experience and connections, would keep Mangini for any reason other than he was convinced that he was the coach he wanted. IMO a guy like Holmgren probably had some choices that were never reported. Quality guys, experienced. I have to think that he would not just keep Mangini as a "trial".
That being said, I in no way think that it is far fetched that he would fire him for poor performance, as a coach, not necessarily based on wins and losses. I believe that it is the program that is important. There have been many coaches in the past that did not win immediately.
I just don't feel Holmgren is dumb enough to just stick with him for continuity sake. IMO he saw things he wanted to see.
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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As far as Quinn getting his chances and how fair they may or may Not have been the fact is Quinn has a chance to prove all that in Denver. Should he become nothing but a serviceable journeyman ala Charlie Frye, the Quinn detractors look correct in their assessment yet should he shine in Denver I would say the goat horns fit as nicely.
To call Frye a "serviceable journeyman" reaches a level of generosity that even Mother Theresa couldn't possibly attain.
Taking that a step further, if Quinn becomes the next Charlie Frye, he'll have been a bust on the level of Rick Mirer and Jamarcus Russell.
Whether or not people choose to accept Quinn's fall as fair, one of the best QB guru's in the history of the NFL was more than happy to dump him for a low pick and a backup fullback/3rd-string RB. And as if that isn't a great enough indictment, his new team went ahead and drafted a QB in the first round.
I may not like McCoy's chances, but I'll take his odds over Quinn's any day.............
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hall of Famer
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I didn't read everything in the thread, but here's my opinion.
McCoy had a completion percentage of 70.15 over his 4 year college career. I have heard many coaches say that the best determination of a QBs potential is his completion percentage. Most of the better QBs in the league had a completion percentage of 65 or better in college.
McCoy has 112 TDs over 1645 passes in his career. He's scoring a TD every 14-15 passes. That absolutely floors me. I don't know what our other stat and QB guys think, but that's an incredible stat. On the opposing side, he only has 45 INTs for his college career, which means he throws in INT every 36 passes. He needs to improve this stat, in my opinion. He also has 20 rushing TDs over 4 years.
I know there are a lot of "stats are for suckers" guys out there, but stats tell the story for those who didn't see the game. I'd like to see this kid go to Holmgren U for a year, and see what he can do. It looks like we are setting ourselves up for that process.
BTW, my favorite stat is 0 fumbles in 4 years.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810 |
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Daman...show me where I put words in your mouth?
Right here:
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Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini
I can't believe you asked me that question and the answer was in your own post.., What the hell are you smokin man... Geesh....
daman...you took part of a sentence...didn't even go to end where the question mark was...and then claim I made comment that put words in your mouth...that is pure BS.
You are just looking for something to bitch about, for some unknown reason??? 
Again, with your selective editing, taking part of what I wrote, you attempt to claim something that did not happen.
Daman...know what...I don't give a damn what you think!
Holmgren never committed to Mangini beyond this year...Mangini is on a one year try out and if he stays, it will likely be that Holmgren sees that the two can work together and the team is progressing.
If the two can't work together and the team is not progressing...look for Holmgren to give the axe to Mangini and bring in his own choices to fill coaching positions.
BTW, here is the sentence in full again...study it to the end...
..."Daman...so what your saying is, you believe Holmgren should have fired Mangini...one and done...rather than basing his decision on results?"
Now tell me again where I put words in your mouth...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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