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In the passage you will see that people are asking God to be vengeful, and are questioning why he isn't vengeful. - Which means that you cited something that works completely against your argument.
A psalm of Asaph.
1 O God, the nations have invaded your inheritance; they have defiled your holy temple, they have reduced Jerusalem to rubble. 2 They have given the dead bodies of your servants as food to the birds of the air, the flesh of your saints to the beasts of the earth. 3 They have poured out blood like water all around Jerusalem, and there is no one to bury the dead. 4 We are objects of reproach to our neighbors, of scorn and derision to those around us. 5 How long, O Lord? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire? 6 Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge you, on the kingdoms that do not call on your name; 7 for they have devoured Jacob and destroyed his homeland. 8 Do not hold against us the sins of the fathers; may your mercy come quickly to meet us, for we are in desperate need. 9 Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake. 10 Why should the nations say, "Where is their God?" Before our eyes, make known among the nations that you avenge the outpoured blood of your servants. 11 May the groans of the prisoners come before you; by the strength of your arm preserve those condemned to die. 12 Pay back into the laps of our neighbors seven times the reproach they have hurled at you, O Lord. 13 Then we your people, the sheep of your pasture, will praise you forever; from generation to generation we will recount your praise.
Hang on, let me look up another one of your passages that counter everything you write... 
Read it again. They are asking god how much longer he will be angry with his people. God is not defending his chosen people out of vengence for something they have done. He is allowing them to be destroyed. They are trying to tell god that they will worship him forever this time, if he takes his vengence out against their enemies instead of punishing his people by allowing their enemies to kill them.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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They are trying to tell god that they will worship him forever this time, if he takes his vengence out against their enemies instead of punishing his people by allowing their enemies to kill them.
Alright, so follow me...please. You feel that God is vengeful. But, according to you, God's people tell him that they will "worship him forever if he takes his vengence out against their enemies" God responds by doing nothing.
So you're saying that by doing nothing God is vengeful?
No Joke here - Have you ever considered that by not intervening at all, God was being, well, perfect?
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Once again, and finally, they are complaining because god is punishing them by not protecting them. Hence the lines, "5 How long, O Lord? Will you be angry forever? How long will your jealousy burn like fire? " God is being vengeful by punishing his people.
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God isn't punishing his people. Other people are punishing his people. God is letting it happen - which proves that God isn't vengeful.
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God isn't punishing his people. Other people are punishing his people. God is letting it happen - which proves that God isn't vengeful.
Which given that sentence would suggest that God is at best, apathetic. Not exactly what I was hoping for in a supreme being or deity.
#GMSTRONG
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So I just got done fighting the notion that God is vengeful and now you come along with another label for God. After I deal with your label, another one will come along, and then another one....
Did you ever consider that God is perfect? - Vengeful to some, Apathetic to others, perfect...
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That makes absolutely no sense.
#GMSTRONG
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That makes absolutely no sense.
Care to elaborate? Does it make too much sense?
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That makes absolutely no sense.
Care to elaborate? Does it make too much sense?
Don't think I can make it any more plain, but don't let that dissuade you, keep on truckin' brother! 
#GMSTRONG
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Don't think I can make it any more plain
Agreed.
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Lyuok...From the AOL news article link you posted...
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"If the world wants to think this is a wonderful discovery, that's fine," Randall Price, an archaeologist who in 2008 was working with the Chinese-led evangelical team, told The Christian Science Monitor. "My problem is that, in the end, proper analysis may show this to be a hoax and negatively reflect how gullible Christians can be."
.... OUCH...  ....
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Context please... Not just a couple words. Please list the entire passage or a couple sentences from the passage.
I guess Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, Egypt, and sinning Israelites aren't good enough for you.
Eric:
God is not vengeful. I know you posted various scriptures saying God is but of course you are taking them out of context. As most people do when citing the Bible.
God doesn't take veangence on people, God doesn't punish people. People punish themselves with their own sinful behaviors.
God laid out the rules a long time ago and said you better not do these things because if you do your going have a bad end at your very own hands.
'
Human beings brought sin into the world on their own by eating from the Tree if Knowledge they were forbidden to eat from......God didn't make us sin,we done that all on our own with no one to blame but ourselves.....
The Bible tells us:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord -Romans 6:23
The Isrealites begging to God to prevent their own demise was in fact their own fault. God warned them what the wages if sin is....they willingly choose that path...God had no veanence to take out....the Israelite done that all on their own accord.
again, however, the Bible tells us the Bible and the words of God make no sense to the ones who are perishing.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God - 1 Corinthians 1:18
yes most can't believe the stories in the Bible or understand the Bible because the words are foolishness to the unsaved.....the message of the cross(Jesus and his ressurection) is foolishness to the ones who are perishing (the unsaved)
you won't hear that Biblical truth talked about in your church, on tv, or anywhere else because its not politcally correct, but it is the truth nonetheless.
God does not listen to the prayers on the unsaved UNLESS it is to repent of their sins and accept Christ into their lives.
Proverbs 1:28-33
“Then they will call to me but I will not answer;they will look for me but will not find me.Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord,Since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke.They will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.For the waywardness of the simple will kill them,And the complacency of fools will destroy them;But whoever listens to me will live in safetyAnd be at ease, without fear of harm.”
Proverbs 28:9
If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.
Psalm 34:15-16 and I Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.
Ezekiel 8:17-18
He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the house of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually provoke me to anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.”
God hears the prayers of the unsaved, but he turns his face and will not listen to them, he is however very attenative to the prayers if his children that have accepted the Gospel. If a many truly believes in his heart, repents, and accepts Christ that person will be saved period because it has been written.
Those are the reasons what happenend happened people did it to themselves, God had no need for veangence....
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Lyuok...From the AOL news article link you posted...
Quote:
"If the world wants to think this is a wonderful discovery, that's fine," Randall Price, an archaeologist who in 2008 was working with the Chinese-led evangelical team, told The Christian Science Monitor. "My problem is that, in the end, proper analysis may show this to be a hoax and negatively reflect how gullible Christians can be."
.... OUCH... ....
Yea because the science and evolution community is far too enlightened and would NEVER fall for a hoax and prove themselves to be gullible people with an agenda....  
yebat' Putin
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To be fair, anything that is based solely on faith inevitably will be susceptible to greater gullibility than anything based on science.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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To be fair, anything that is based solely on faith inevitably will be susceptible to greater gullibility than anything based on science.
To those without faith..
yebat' Putin
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How did the biblical passages start??? Yowza..... its a good ol' bible thumpin debate! C'mon kids, the Bible, although an incredible story and faith inspiring, is so very based on your interpretation. It's also, I've been told not having read the whole thing myself, pretty contradictory to itself at various points. It's a never ending argument folks..... Call me when we move to gun laws or health care...those are my preferred unwinnable battles. 
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To be fair, anything that is based solely on faith inevitably will be susceptible to greater gullibility than anything based on science.
To those without faith..
I wonder how many cults would exist if actual scientific proof were available..........
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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We got here after I made a sarcastic remark about what proving found the actual ark from an Evangelical perspective would really mean (that fire and brimstone- with the usage of water- God being angry and punishing humanity with a flood thing). I don't know how that shouldn't disturb people who believe it. So I (similarly playing the role of Herostratus burning down the Temple of Artemis) proudly lay claim to this cafeteria food fight.  As for the concept of faith, unfortunately I've seen it mainly as a cop-out for not being able to adequately answer my questions about some of the philosophical, moral, alternative viewing, etc. observations about the bible or the concept of God, our origins and the like. This is coming from a guy who went to Catholic schools his entire life, appreciates and values some things growing in that environment provided but reject many of its views and claims. I don't get blind faith. Feel free to answer this, what other sacred texts from other religions have any of you so strongly defending the bible honestly read? To know just one religion is to know none. Everything, even whatever supposedly creates me, is subject to questioning and further analysis. To simply entrust everything to a potentially non-existent force which is all quite simply the interpretations of what other men living thousands of years ago thought does NOT jive with me is all I'm saying. I have a need to make sense the things around me and do not feel the need to fear anything just for what is my own nature or views. That is out of my control but I find most of it too self-serving and unverifiable to be plausible or necessary. Mainly what I'm getting at is that questioning is a good thing. Sometimes I feel just like Freud did about religion. Face it. The majority of organized religion goes largely unchallenged and is too easily, oft mindlessly accepted. Remember that thread about the confirmation bias? It applies here. It's all relative and based on what you're born into. People's minds are made up about the bible or other sacred texts before they've even read them. I don't get and totally reject the idea of blind faith. I think it would be healthier from a thought perspective to move away from that some day. Not the most popular view, but hey that's just my $0.10. Take it with a grain of salt I guess. 
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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yebat' Putin
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Claims.
Any kind of religion............no.............any kind of any belief about any topic based on pure faith makes it easier for the gullible to be manipulated. In that regard, the scientific community will always be less susceptible based solely on the nature of skepticism.
I dunno man. Maybe we're going down a different road with the conversation. These kinds are particularly difficult to conduct via the net. They are hard enough in person and totally sober.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Meh. Sobriety's overrated.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Meh. Sobriety's overrated.
AMEN to that!
(that's about the most religious thing I can say) 
------------------------------
*In Baker we trust*
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Yea because the science and evolution community is far too enlightened and would NEVER fall for a hoax and prove themselves to be gullible people with an agenda....
Like what? I'm not saying that people won't fall for a hoax, just that the scientific community would want to test, poke, and prod something until it's replicated over and over. Can you point to something recently where this occurred?
There are no sacred cows.
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Yea because the science and evolution community is far too enlightened and would NEVER fall for a hoax and prove themselves to be gullible people with an agenda....
Like what? I'm not saying that people won't fall for a hoax, just that the scientific community would want to test, poke, and prod something until it's replicated over and over. Can you point to something recently where this occurred?
The cause of global warming perhaps?
Think about it - it is an accepted fact that earth has warmed a few tenths in the last however long. (just as it is a fact wood was found high up in the mountains).
People stand to profit from saying global warming is man made (think Al Gore here, for one. I heard he just recently bought another house in California I believe).
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God doesn't take veangence on people, God doesn't punish people. People punish themselves with their own sinful behaviors.
I'm sorry that's akin to saying something like : "When daddy beat up mommy lastnight it wasn't daddy's fault. He strictly requires that dinner be served hot at 6pm when he gets home from a hard days work. So after working so hard to take care of the family all day fulfilling his end of the bargain, when mommy was not pulling her own weight. Therefore, mommy had it coming."
Or something.
There are no sacred cows.
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Quote:
Quote:
God doesn't take veangence on people, God doesn't punish people. People punish themselves with their own sinful behaviors.
I'm sorry that's akin to saying something like : "When daddy beat up mommy lastnight it wasn't daddy's fault. He strictly requires that dinner be served hot at 6pm when he gets home from a hard days work. So after working so hard to take care of the family all day fulfilling his end of the bargain, when mommy was not pulling her own weight. Therefore, mommy had it coming."
Or something.
Nah - it's really nothing like that.
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The cause of global warming perhaps?
As of right now there's no evidence to suggest it's a hoax of any variety. At this point, it's based off of a large set of data that points to a warming climate. Is the exact cause known? Is it CO2 driven only? Questions like these need answered, true, but because they aren't answered yet doesn't make this a hoax.
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Think about it - it is an accepted fact that earth has warmed a few tenths in the last however long. (just as it is a fact wood was found high up in the mountains).
The movie actually shows rooms, not just wood. This isn't a good comparison though. The wood can be tested, and should be allowed to be independently tested by a half-dozen different labs to find out just how old this wood is. This is a much easier task that unraveling the complexity of a chaotic system like our climate.
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People stand to profit from saying global warming is man made (think Al Gore here, for one. I heard he just recently bought another house in California I believe).
Just as people will profit from denying it. As unfortunate as it is for a select few to profit off of something like this, its going to happen.
There are no sacred cows.
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People stand to profit from saying global warming is man made
and here's the problem with science going back generations. scientists have always been "employed" by the wealthy class.
some of the great discoveries have been found as a results (think Bell Laboratories and the finding of the transistor. you can thank them for every small electronic device we have today). and, some of histories great misconceptions have also resulted from it (the earth being flat, et cetera).
basically, science is just another religion that many believe in, but has some serious flaws in the infrastructure. just like other religions, there are many positive outcomes that can result, but it's not like we can just accept it and leave it unchecked.
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basically, science is just another religion that many believe in, but has some serious flaws in the infrastructure. just like other religions, there are many positive outcomes that can result, but it's not like we can just accept it and leave it unchecked.
haha....i fail to see how: your GPS working, your computer working, man evolving from apes, or the sun coming up every day - has anything to do with religion....
science is based in repeatable observation and evidence - religion is not. This does not make one better or worse than the other necessarily, but they are completely separate entities
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 05/03/10 03:35 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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just like with statistics, if you look hard enough, you can find a statistic to tell you what you want.
with experiments, if you look hard enough, you can find one that will tell you what you want. and if someone is paying you major $$$ to do it, you will look pretty darn hard.
#gmstrong
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just like with statistics, if you look hard enough, you can find a statistic to tell you what you want.
with experiments, if you look hard enough, you can find one that will tell you what you want. and if someone is paying you major $$$ to do it, you will look pretty darn hard.
no....not how it works
let me ask you this - if Darwin was wrong, what do you think the probability would be that man's DNA would look as similar to ape DNA as it does? I'll let you in on a hint - it's 1 / (a very very large number)
Or do you think that the entire concept of DNA was made up to cover for Darwin?
~Lyuokdea
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haha....i fail to see how: your GPS working, your computer working, man evolving from apes, or the sun coming up every day - has anything to do with religion....
science is based in repeatable observation and evidence - religion is not. This does not make one better or worse than the other necessarily, but they are completely separate entities
Ultimately science is based on that.. initially it is not. Go out in a field and find a bone fragment and get somebody with initials behind their name to drive out to the field and take a quick look-see at it and proclaim it the missing bone fossil required to prove how legs turned into wings and hundreds of millions of people will believe it... articles will be written, the scientist will get to author a best selling book and go on all of the cool shows... ultimately science should determine the validity of his statement but to say there is not a religious-like following of this kind of announcement is just false on your part.
Similarly scientists, some religious and some not, will examine this find. I'm not sure if they will ever be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it IS Noahs ark, while they could prove that it is not. Short of finding 1000 different animal feces fossils nearby from animals which now live all over the world.. or the alter that was built to God after the boat landed or the etching "Noah was here" in the wood.. my guess is there will always be some doubt if this is really Noahs ark, even if they determine it to be 4-5000 years old, shaped like a boat, etc... that would increase the liklihood but it won't prove it... and if the do prove that there is a very good chance this is Noah's ark, does that prove the existence of God? Some people are going to believe in God no matter what kind of "evidence" you give them.. the part you need to understand is that some people are NOT going to believe in God no matter what kind of "evidence" you give them... and I'm ok with that... that's why they call it faith.
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Big difference. Even if you find the statistics that you want, you would have to discount the statistics that don't to rule a certain way, and others could come along look at ALL the statistics and come to the truth.
So quit trying to compare science and religion as the same thing. Religion is faith based, it is something you believe or don't believe, there is no physical proof to provide to others to help them believe. This is why the Jesus says in the bible to just be a witness and spread your testimony. Let the people decide for themselves if they choose to believe.
Science, takes physical data and tests it to come to an answer. Sometimes that answer can be challenged by new data, but in either case, there is a physical entity to science.
We can replicate a science experiment to come to our own conclusion. Last I checked I couldn't find any participants to make the blind see, the lame walk, or raise someone from the dead to verify what we read in the bible. You just have to have faith that the words are true. People come to that faith in different ways, at different times, and some never come to that faith at all.
But If I told you the stove burner is hot, you could have faith that I speak the truth, or you could touch it for yourself and do your own scientific experiment.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Similarly scientists, some religious and some not, will examine this find. I'm not sure if they will ever be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it IS Noahs ark, while they could prove that it is not. Short of finding 1000 different animal feces fossils nearby from animals which now live all over the world.. or the alter that was built to God after the boat landed or the etching "Noah was here" in the wood.. my guess is there will always be some doubt if this is really Noahs ark, even if they determine it to be 4-5000 years old, shaped like a boat, etc... that would increase the liklihood but it won't prove it... and if the do prove that there is a very good chance this is Noah's ark, does that prove the existence of God? Some people are going to believe in God no matter what kind of "evidence" you give them.. the part you need to understand is that some people are NOT going to believe in God no matter what kind of "evidence" you give them... and I'm ok with that... that's why they call it faith.
I agree that it won't prove god --- but it won't get that far. Already there is serious doubt that this claim is made up. And since it's pretty impossible to make a 6000 foot flood (especially one that is not seen in any fossil record or archaeological sample anywhere on earth - you'd also need 10x as much water as exists on the planet earth) - there are major hurdles for any Noah's ark claim to surmount
~Lyuokdea
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some of histories great misconceptions have also resulted from it (the earth being flat, et cetera).
You can thank the catholic church for that one, as well as the earth revolving around the sun. These weren't scientifically based at all (no testing, no proof), and just based off observation. Scientific endeavors later took these views, put them to the test, and found them lacking. Can a scientific interpretation be wrong? Of course. But when mountains of evidence pile up, like those supporting ideas like evolution through natural selection, one should recognize it and adjust their views accordingly.
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basically, science is just another religion that many believe in, but has some serious flaws in the infrastructure.
You obviously have some misconceptions about science then. In a nutshell, it's about taking an observation, testing it, being skeptical of the results, then retest it to see if it holds up to further scrutiny and even more testing. Good science removes man-made bias so that only the thing being tested is reported on. It's about applying logic and reasoning to a task to ascertain the undiluted truth. That's it. There's no belief, no faith, just the facts.
Admittedly, man is fallible and will seek to satiate his own desires and may abuse science. But that is usually discovered, and the truth is discovered from it. Look no farther than the MMR vaccine hoax that has been perpetrated by Andrew Wakefield. A decade ago he published a paper in the Lancet stating that the MMR vaccine could be correlated to the rise in autism spectrum disorders and bowel troubles that usually accompany it. It's now know that A.) He was employed by a group of lawyers that were suing a company that produced the MMR B.) He was developing and patenting his own version of it C.) He made up data. On top of that, there is no evidence for the correlation of MMR and autism based on many tests over the years. This past year the paper was pulled from the journal, he was sanctioned by the medical board of Britain for questionable research techniques, and is in danger of losing his license I believe. The point being, following a scientific mindset the truth was found. Science denial is dangerous because it opens up the field to many different pseudoscientific beliefs that have no basis in reality.
I'd be interested in your explanation of the parallels between science and religion.
There are no sacred cows.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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You can thank the catholic church for that one, as well as the earth revolving around the sun. These weren't scientifically based at all (no testing, no proof), and just based off observation. Scientific endeavors later took these views, put them to the test, and found them lacking. Can a scientific interpretation be wrong? Of course. But when mountains of evidence pile up, like those supporting ideas like evolution through natural selection, one should recognize it and adjust their views accordingly.
That reminds me of the Family Guy episode where Brian and Stewie were traveling to alternate universes. One of them was a place where religion hadn't existed and therefore couldn't throttle scientific progression. It was kind of thought-provoking...along with being hysterical...as always.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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I didn't mean to convey the idea that we'd be better off without the catholic church, just that early hypotheses on observations of our surroundings were A.) Religiously based and B.) without the proper tools. Until geometry was invented we'd had no way of figuring these things out so the people did the best they could.
There are no sacred cows.
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Rookie
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That's not being narrow, it's a sound observation. These 'explorers' have something to gain by claiming they've found Noah's ark without any scientific or seemingly relevant evidence..
So it's sort of like "global warming" then?
Global warming is a theory. Nobody can say for sure that it is or is not occurring. In the 70's people believed in global colding. Go figure...
However, some of the contributors that activists claim are causing global may not be true. But the beliefs in it are changing society in a positive way. But it also makes us all a little paranoid & makes folks like Gore a little richer with a cause to champion.
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Scientists who are researching evolution look for and find evidence of evolution.. do you trust them? Scientists who are researching global warming look for and find evidence of man made global warming.. do you trust them? My guess is you do... but scientists who seek to find truth in the Bible, when they look for a find possible evidence of it then it must be crap...
Depending on who or what academic institution is backing the research, yes evolutionary research does provide part of the story of how we all got here. I have more confidence in scientific research because if proven wrong the consequences outweigh the benefits very significantly. Anecdotal research can be spun when necessary.
Scientists didn't find Noah's Ark, "explorers" did. Religious institutions are the only organizations where it is socially acceptable to dispute science regardless of how much confidence there is in a given set of findings. This is why it is difficult to accept information pushed by religious organizations selling stories & information that people wouldn't believe if it was provided by any other non-religious person, group or organization. Being agnostic, I find it hard to believe one man could cram that many animals on one boat, lol, and not have mayhem. Come on! lol..
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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Being agnostic, I find it hard to believe one man could cram that many animals on one boat, lol, and not have mayhem. Come on!
If they weren't hard to believe then that sort of takes all of the "miracle" "mystery" and "faith" part out of it doesn't it? I mean if Noah was a fisherman by the sea and it rained so he put his wife, 2 kids, and a dog on a boat and they floated around for a week until the water went down.. well that really doesn't display God's power at all now does it?
yebat' Putin
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Noah's Ark Found
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