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Methinks they meant the old testament stuff.
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And I believe different translations of the Bible (such as the Islamic Quran) are basically trying to tell a similar story of history, but the translation is different due to a different perspective on it....
The Q'ran is just a different translation of the Bible? 
Some of the characters are the same (Jesus is actually mentioned in the Q'ran), but the story is quite different.
Different places, different perspectives, some things get lost in translation. Think the game of "telephone."
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I don't want to be open about my disbelief. It seems too much of my life right now is wrapped around what I am supposed to believe. My whole family believes. Every one of my friends believe except for one and I don't really like him that much (we went to school together and play poker together).
Growing up I know that I got a lot of comfort from the idea of God. If somebody close to my family dies, I know it will provide a lot of comfort to my kids telling them that God will take care of them. If they ever need to find courage or strength then I hope that they can pray to God and find that within themselves. Like I said before, even if I don't believe in God, I believe that people get something from the idea of God. I don't want to deprive my kids what I had. I certainly don't want to ruin the fun of Santa Claus for them either. They will figure it out like the rest of us did and when they do they won't hate me for lying to them about it. I think they will do it for their own kids. I also don't want my kids going around school telling other kids there isn't a God and becoming outcasts. There might be a day when one of them comes to me and questions the whole idea and I will be honest then, but until then...
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He was raised by two very VERY religious parents. They are great people but simple. I don't mean that in a way to suggest they are stupid or dumb. They just reject critical thinking.
One of my biggest problems with the debate, especially on this board and I've seen the comment made numerous times... that all Christians are like this. That we reject (or are incapable of) critical thinking... which is total BS.
In my experience I have seen many people struggle with their faith and most of them, after careful scrutiny, end up on the christian side. I will say this and this is not to insult anybody personally but most of the people that I know that had strict Christian upbringings and have since left it are more rebelling against the rules and the parents who forced it on them than they are the faith itself. When forced to do something against their will for a long period of time, kids tend to rebel.. that's human nature.
I live my faith, I invite my kids to live it with me. They have never once been FORCED to go to church or to pray or any of that... and so far, they both embrace it.. we'll see what happens from here on out.
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His dad runs everything, which means his mom kept the house and raised the kids while dad earned the keep and made the decisions. Nothing wrong with that. However, that meant critical thinking was never going to be allowed.
How does that mean critical thinking was never going to be allowed? I don't see how having a more traditional home precludes critical thinking... 
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We've got into the debates about science versus faith many times, and he's become exceedingly prickly about it recently. So, we agreed that we simply wouldn't talk about it anymore. He says he'll pray for me in church,
He sounds painfully insecure in his faith. Really sounds like he should step back and take a good long critical look at what he believes and why he believes it.... I'm not sure why anybody would debate science verses faith as if only one can exist at a time... I'm sure your buddy is a good guy with good intentions but he really needs to open up and challenge his own faith to figure out exactly what it is he believes.
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I think it'd do a great many of us good to taste a little fear of God once in a while, just to keep us in check...............
I'm getting on my soapbox for a second now... this is one of my biggest problems with our federal government and the 70 year power grab they have been on with respect to our rights and our liberties. The Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Our forefathers recognized that our rights as Americans, as people, come from God, not from man, not from government, not from the President or the Congress. As God has been systematically removed from our government over the course of time and as our government has methodically taken over providing and overseeing our rights for us, one thing is clear. If our rights are provided by God, nobody can take them away... if our rights are provided by the government, then they most certainly can, and will, be taken away. Climbing back off my soap box...
yebat' Putin
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To some .... "god" today means
Government
On
Demand.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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One of my biggest problems with the debate, especially on this board and I've seen the comment made numerous times... that all Christians are like this. That we reject (or are incapable of) critical thinking... which is total BS.
It's just a guess, but such a belief probably stems from the heads of religion, who clearly are not stupid people, when they reject scientific proclamation's in spite of the existence of various levels of proof.
Not saying it's right or wrong, just saying that's where I believe the viewpoint originates.
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His dad runs everything, which means his mom kept the house and raised the kids while dad earned the keep and made the decisions. Nothing wrong with that. However, that meant critical thinking was never going to be allowed.
How does that mean critical thinking was never going to be allowed? I don't see how having a more traditional home precludes critical thinking...
I included my quote so that the conversation would flow with proper context......
So how does that mean critical thinking was never going to be allowed?
To clarify this, my statement doesn't mean that a traditional, heavily religious upbringing precludes critical thinking. All it means is that Bill (that's his name) ruled his house that way. It was his own personal choice.
So, because Bill was very firm in his beliefs, he totally rejected critical thinking and didn't allow it to happen under his roof.
In many ways I believe that my buddy struggles to see the entire picture to this day because of his fathers stance.
And you're absolutely right that the one's who are forced to live under strict religious guidelines often rebel. My buddy sure did!  Skipping high school classes to go smoke a little pot and go bowling.............yeah, we did it a few times, hehe. Now it can be debated whether or not that was because of his stern religious upbringings, or if it was just a case of "kids being kids."
I was most certainly not brought up under any religious guidelines. I was raised to learn how to form my own opinions and beliefs by examining all sides of things. Yet I wasn't dragged out of class by my buddy. I was a willing participant. 
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He sounds painfully insecure in his faith. Really sounds like he should step back and take a good long critical look at what he believes and why he believes it.... I'm not sure why anybody would debate science verses faith as if only one can exist at a time... I'm sure your buddy is a good guy with good intentions but he really needs to open up and challenge his own faith to figure out exactly what it is he believes.
Well, as noted pure smarts were never his strong suit. Common sense and mechanical acuity are his gifts. Critical thinking to him is like trying to read Chinese stereo instructions. It's also worth noting that the odds are more men than not will develop and carry on with the traits of their father, which means my buddy will have his dad's tendency to quickly and firmly squash any argument that goes against his faith. As it specifically pertains to me, some of that is likely my fault. I've always found a home in critical thinking, and because of that it helps me with discussions, arguments, and debates. It hasn't helped me with my buddy, because he's often rejected ideas of science only to have me throw facts and empirical data on the table which proves him wrong. It's caused him to fall back to his "circle the wagons" position where he says "in the end, you just have to have faith. You don't need proof." It's likely I should have been treading a little lighter over the years, but we've been best buds for more than two decades now. That means we didn't pull punches in the past.
And not to continue to drag this topic out, but you're right, my questions and proclamations backed him into the proverbial corner and did make him question his own faith. That causes a defensive mechanism to trigger. He's steadfast in his faith, for the most part. I have always feared that his actions are born not out of a love for God, but from fear of him, and I have a problem with that, but that's for another discussion.
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Our forefathers recognized that our rights as Americans, as people, come from God, not from man, not from government, not from the President or the Congress. As God has been systematically removed from our government over the course of time and as our government has methodically taken over providing and overseeing our rights for us, one thing is clear. If our rights are provided by God, nobody can take them away... if our rights are provided by the government, then they most certainly can, and will, be taken away. Climbing back off my soap box...
Man, DC.............That's a complex discussion. In the brief ten-seconds it took me to read that, my mind went flying off in so many different directions I had to stop, look up at my pets, take a deep breath, and come to the conclusion that such a discussion, though very worthwhile, isn't for me to take up right here, right now. I can take that down the road of how the government IS taking away certain freedoms, yet at the same time they MUST do it in certain situations and with certain people. That becomes a discussion of necessary evils and what role religion played in the formation of this country, and how religion conducted themselves in the past and now.
Way too complex for me to go down. I'm probably not educated or smart enough to speak on that topic to the extent I've talked regarding this one.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Our forefathers recognized that our rights as Americans, as people, come from God, not from man, not from government, not from the President or the Congress.
Can you quote a biblical verse(s) that says as much?
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As God has been systematically removed from our government over the course of time and as our government has methodically taken over providing and overseeing our rights for us, one thing is clear.
How much the foundation of this country was based on religion is very much up to debate and very much opinion based on interpretation (as you indicated with the soapbox idea). In the line of the DoI it says Creator, not God. But, Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut and not in the DoI first used the term of separation of church and state. It's plausible that God never had a place in the DoI, but was later injected based on people's ideology at the time. It's a difficult topic to judge.
There are no sacred cows.
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Can you quote a biblical verse(s) that says as much?
The founding fathers said that our rights come from our "creator". It further refers to Nature's God.
Inalienable, for those who wonder, means something that is incapable of being repudiated or transferred to another. So man is endowed, by his creator, with rights that cannot be repudiated, nor taken away.
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. ....
One other thing ..... the US Constitution has limited references to God ..... but most state Constitutions reference God, Almighty God, or another variation. I believe that 30 of them use the exact phrasing "Almighty God".
The founding fathers were not godless atheists. They simply did not want a "Church of America" similar to the Church of England. They wanted people to be free to worship God as they desired .... whether they were Pilgrims, Anglican, Baptist, Puritan, Lutheran, Quakers, Roman Catholics, (although, Catholics were not popular in some areas due to the conflicts between the Roman Catholic Church and England) Protestants, etc. Many people coming to America did so for God, and the ablity to Worship Him as their consciences dictated. Most settlements had a particular religion as the basis of their lives, and this freedom was the reason for much of the immigration to America from Britain and elsewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
That's where we are and should be doing right now.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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You and me both.
I believe the Bible is "a translation of history for people in a time where it was too difficult to comprehend."
I do believe there was a Christ, a Great Flood and important people in Biblical history, but I don't think it's all meant to be taken literally.
And I believe different translations of the Bible (such as the Islamic Quran) are basically trying to tell a similar story of history, but the translation is different due to a different perspective on it. (Think the difference in history books based on country, but harder to keep track of due to people simply not having the knowledge of forensics, carbon dating and such that we have now)
great post Ammo. i share much of the same sentiments.
#gmstrong
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Toad, let me narrow the focus just a bit because you have said something, or I have interpreted something, the same way several times. People make comments like this all the time... Quote:
I was most certainly not brought up under any religious guidelines. I was raised to learn how to form my own opinions and beliefs by examining all sides of things.
It bugs me to no end because the implication is, whether overtly intended or not, that if I was brought up under religious guidelines then I must not have been raised to form my own opinions by looking at all sides. It is a very subtle, yet fairly severe, backhand to the face to anybody raised in a Christian home to imply that they were never taught to "think" for themselves because they were raised with a religous foundation..
yebat' Putin
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It bugs me to no end because the implication is, whether overtly intended or not, that if I was brought up under religious guidelines then I must not have been raised to form my own opinions by looking at all sides. It is a very subtle, yet fairly severe, backhand to the face to anybody raised in a Christian home to imply that they were never taught to "think" for themselves because they were raised with a religous foundation..
It is certainly not true of all (or necessarily most) religious people - but there is a not-insignificant group out there that rejects science out of religious convictions rather than out of actual evidence - watch Jesus Camp for an extreme example ..... or just post an article on this board about evolution, and some examples will invariably pop up.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 05/07/10 11:55 AM.
~Lyuokdea
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Toad, let me narrow the focus just a bit because you have said something, or I have interpreted something, the same way several times.
People make comments like this all the time...
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I was most certainly not brought up under any religious guidelines. I was raised to learn how to form my own opinions and beliefs by examining all sides of things.
It bugs me to no end because the implication is, whether overtly intended or not, that if I was brought up under religious guidelines then I must not have been raised to form my own opinions by looking at all sides. It is a very subtle, yet fairly severe, backhand to the face to anybody raised in a Christian home to imply that they were never taught to "think" for themselves because they were raised with a religous foundation..
I can see how it'd bug you. Offense is not intended.
The perception comes from how the church denounces science and tries awfully hard to suppress anything that could possibly eat at the fabric of their teachings.
Let me give you an example.......
Over the years I've gone to various churches. Some I went with friends when I was a teenager. The most recent time was about ten years ago as a fully grown man. When the Pastor came to meet me after the service, I asked him several questions, many about his churches viewpoint regarding science versus religion. He was quite clear with his feelings, which was that he tries to make his patrons understand that they should ignore the proclamations of science and keep their faith in religion.
In Ohio, I met the Pastor of my deceased Uncle and his still-living Aunts Pentecostal church. He also stated, but in an angrier way, that he is vehemently opposed to anything science because it has the effect of breaking down the faith of his flock (yeah, he used that word). He encourages his people to be steadfast in their faith, and to fight the inclusion of such things as the theory of evolution in schools.
So, while I COMPLETELY understand why it would upset you, the sad truth is that such a perception is created not out of ignorance, but out of experience via the churches themselves. I've experienced it numerous times, and I've probably only been to church some ten times in my entire life.
Basically, I feel that over the course of centuries, religion ruled the people. In more recent decades, that hold over the people has been reduced. Whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing isn't an opinion I'm making here, just stating what I view to be a fact. The church is losing ground and instead of embracing change, they lose even more ground by denouncing critical thinking.
Now obviously this isn't something that is happening in every church and with every person. But it is happening. If I hadn't experienced it myself, I may sing a different tune. When teachings are ingrained over generations of family members, it's harder for some to learn to be critical thinkers. My buddy is the perfect example of that. He's admitted as such.
Religion is fighting a losing battle in this regard. Science has made such huge leaps and bounds in such a minuscule amount of time that the beliefs and teachings of the church have come severely under fire. The natural defense is to try and hold onto what they've taught for the past thousand years. That's the conservative nature of religion itself.
It's unfortunate that such a perception exists because it lumps people like you into the wrong category, but it's also a perception with some factual foundation, at least from my experience.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You would be better off quoting the second aspect of my post, rather than the first. What you addressed was not biblical in nature and doesn't show that the new testament mentions the rights of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as God-given rights. I was under the impression that these were political theory up until the point of their invocation in the DoI. Quote:
The founding fathers said that our rights come from our "creator". It further refers to Nature's God.
But couldn't it could be Allah, or Buddah, or a great sea turtle? They make no reference to Christianities God. The fact that they even said Nature's God when they could've said otherwise hints at this separation.
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the US Constitution has limited references to God
You're right, in fact, any reference is purely exclusionary in origin, with no specific take on Christianity. Like: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust" or "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." As for the idea that state constitutions include God references, I hate to say it, but it doesn't matter in this context. America's guiding principles formed in the constitution do not reference Christianity or God in the slightest. And the 14th amendment holds the US constitution over any other constitution in the land. Call me old fashioned, but I'm more likely to believe the original founding fathers of the country than of the states when it comes to the interpretation of this country.
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The founding fathers were not godless atheists.
Who said they were? It seems to me (opinion) that they were open to the idea of people being free worship in a way that they felt was appropriate, it wasn't just a Christian-only thing. They knew what it was like to be told what to do and how to worship, why would they just turn around and do it to their own people? In fact, the congressionally ratified Treaty of Tripoli states that "the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." They were trying to allay fears so that the treatied countries were bound as sovereign nations, not religions.
There are no sacred cows.
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That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
That's where we are and should be doing right now.
Then by all means, begin it. If you truly believe this government has become an abomination start the process.
There are no sacred cows.
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That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
That's where we are and should be doing right now.
Then by all means, begin it. If you truly believe this government has become an abomination start the process.
I did. I registered independent, and don't vote down a party line for the sake of a party. It may not be much, but at least I'm not being a sheep and just doing as I'm told.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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And I believe different translations of the Bible (such as the Islamic Quran) are basically trying to tell a similar story of history, but the translation is different due to a different perspective on it....
The Q'ran is just a different translation of the Bible?
Some of the characters are the same (Jesus is actually mentioned in the Q'ran), but the story is quite different.
I will say the Muslims hold the Blessed Virgin Mary in high esteem like the Catholics, but there are obvious fundamental differences between the q'uran and the Bible as you pointed out.
Ammo's take is interesting, as always 
Go Browns!
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