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ytown...how many jobs would have been lost had this country gone into a "depression"?
I know if Republicans had their way, GM and Chrysler would not have been bailed out. If the US auto industry had been allowed to fail as GOP leaders in Congress wanted, Obama would have inherited a depression, not a recession.
Note: I do not include Ohio Senator Voinovich in this group of GOP leaders.
To Bush's credit, he circumvented the wishes of the GOP party and extended bridge loans from the tarp fund to get GM and Chrysler by until Obama took over in Jan. 2009.
Neither Paulson or Bush wanted the demise of the US auto industry on their record. Had Obama inherited a "depression" instead of a "recession", Bush and Paulson would have been blamed, and rightly so. Instead of handing Obama a depression, Bush only handed him the worst recession this country has seen in a long, long time.
Instead of the economy showing signs of recover, just 16 months after Obama took office, lord knows how bad the American economy would be today.
How many jobs did Obama save...without the help of the GOP congress?...
BTW, I give Bush credit for what he did, not allowing GM and Chrysler to go belly up while he was in office...keeping them afloat until Obama took office. I know Bush peeved off a lot of GOPers when he used tarp to help the auto industry.
I found this little gem, to remind you what was at stake, if the GOP leadership had their way and the US auto industry been allowed to fend for themselves. The ripple effect...try to imagine...
web page
Hank Paulson, who served as President Bush's Treasury Secretary and who orchestrated the first round of bailouts, has said in recent interviews that, absent the bailouts, he believes the unemployment rate in the country would have hit 25 percent.
Twenty-five percent!
We know that the stimulus bill created or saved two million jobs. But Paulson is making a much grander argument. With a workforce of more than 150 million people, Paulson is suggesting that the administration's continuation of the TARP program saved almost 23 million jobs.
That's what the Second Great Depression would have looked like. Not 15 million people unemployed. Closer to 40 million.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Your assuming that had GM not taken a bailout, they would have just chained the doors shut. I doubt they would have, they would have entered bankruptcy, dropped their UAW contracts, gone into restructuring, and emerged the other side ready to continue with business as usual. It just would have taken years instead of months to accomplish.
Sure some jobs would have been lost, but it would have not just been a sudden dumping of 10% (1 out of 10) of the population.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Nice job of not answering my question.
The question was: How many US jobs would have been lost at GM if the government hadn't bought the company, and filed bankruptcy anyway?
I'll do a little of the work for you.
IN 32008, GM employed 61,000 US hourly workers.
In 2009, after the government "bailout", and bankruptcy, the number of US hourly employees at GM fell to aprox 40,000.
In other words, US employment dropped by 33%.
This cost the country the bulk of the $61 billion that went into "saving" GM and Chrysler.
It also helped save jobs outside of the US. Lots of jobs. In fact, GM employs far more hourly workers outside of the US than within the US. So ... we spent tons and tons of US taxpayer money to save jobs in dozens of other countries. God bless America!
Now, mac, I want to know how many MORE jobs you think would have been lost if GM had filed for bankruptcy without government ownership. I want you to explain your methodology for arriving at your number. I want to know your reasons. I don't want talking points, or avoidance of the question, or some BS article that is not even remotely related to the question .....
I want an actual, real, backed up and supported answer.
I won't hold my breath though. Your next answer to ee that criteria will be your first.
Oh ... and Obama has never had a "GOP Congress". He has had overwhelming Democrat margins. I really do wonder how you come up with some of this stuff sometimes.
Now ... as far as a "2nd great depression", I would like to know how you see GM ... with 40,000 hourly US employees, as impacting 10% of the economy? The ecomony has lost 4 MILLION jobs snce the start of 2009. Using your math, should we have spent trillions and trilions of imaginary taxpayer dollars to prop up other businesses and industries as well?
The bottom line is this .... The Obama administration wanted to save as many union jobs as possible. If GM was left to fail, someone else would have come along, bought tup the good parts ... as happened in their reorganization ..... voided the union contracts (as would have been their right), dumped the retirees pension, and hired up workers at a reduced rate and begun new production of automobiles. Guess what? Most of that happened anyway .... except that the administration protected the uniuon workers, and paid off the unuon to tale over retiree benefits. Other than that, there really is no difference between what "would have happened", and "what did happen" ..... except that the government now owns a huge stake in GM.
Oh .. and another fine Huffington Rag post. How nice. I stopped reading right here .....
"We know that the stimulus bill created or saved two million jobs.".
What a load of crap.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Mac ......
Oh ... and are you saying that we are in a "Great Depression" now?
GM's employment is 40,000 US workers.
Multiply that by 10 (your number) and we get 4,000,000 people put out of work.
Wait ... that's what happened anyway.
So are we in a "Great Depression" now? I mean ... using your number, it sure seems we would have to be ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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actually if you multiply 40,000 by 10 we get 400,000.....just saying....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Why, you're right.
We must be in the deepest and darkest, Mother of all Depressions then.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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blink blink....who is that set of eyes I see in the blackness over there....LOL
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Quote:
I doubt they would have, they would have entered bankruptcy, dropped their UAW contracts, gone into restructuring, and emerged the other side ready to continue with business as usual. It just would have taken years instead of months to accomplish.
He's assuming one thing, but isn't that what your doing also..
My assumption is even different from both of yours.. I'd think that Nissan, (partially owned by Renault of France) who wanted to merge with GM a number of years back, would have come in and bailed them out to some degree.. but it would have had to have meant HUGE job losses and More Dealer Closings... which means even more job losses..
So, either way, it would have been ugly..... Lots of job losses,,
The only point I'm trying to make is this, no matter what decision the Adminstration (who ever was in office, McCain or Obama or Bush) would have made would have been bad for someone..
Given the alternatives, I think I'd rather see it the way it is because they (GM) seems to be on the mend.. I do believe that in time, we'll see the bail out money back (all of it) just like we did when we bailed out Chrysler when Iacocca was there..
This entire economic tornado didn't start quickly, it's not going to be resolved quickly either.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
but it would have had to have meant HUGE job losses and More Dealer Closings... which means even more job losses..
There were huge job losses. 1/3 of the hourly work force at GM lost their jobs between 2008 and 2009.
GM closed more than 1000 dealerships.
There was pain. There were huge job losses. It was ugly.
And it cost us (The US Taxpayers) $61 billon.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
He's assuming one thing, but isn't that what your doing also..
Everybody is assuming stuff. mac is assuming that the way it played out was the best possible scenario, which is unknown since its the only one we tried.. everybody else has to assume what would have happened if we had tried something else..
yebat' Putin
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So we've dropped to the point of pitting assumptions against assumptions? 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Yeah, that's correct and I'm of the belief that it would have been even worse had a Nissan or Toyota or Honda would have merged with GM.. Just my belief.. I've got no way to prove it.. none..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
So we've dropped to the point of pitting assumptions against assumptions?
Don't you pretty much have to? When you only get one chance to do something, the debate on whether or not that was the best choice is always going to involve assumptions.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Yeah, that's correct and I'm of the belief that it would have been even worse had a Nissan or Toyota or Honda would have merged with GM.. Just my belief.. I've got no way to prove it.. none..
OK, that's all well and good ... but what are your reasons?
GM cut its work force from 61,000 to 40,000 as a result of their bankruptcy. What cuts do you see as realistic if they had been bought out by Toyoya or Honda? GM closed 14 plants. How many more do you think would have been idled if Toyota or Honda had bought them out? (I don't see Nissan as a realistic purchaser as their interest in a merger with GM wasn't to acquire GM, but rather to infuse cash into its own operations as it finally did in being partially bought out by Renault)
So what numbers do you see as realistic if GM and Chrysler had done as damn near every other failed company in the country does and went through a reorganization under the bankruptcy laws? If GM had their work force cut to 20,000 (1/3 of its previous level) that would have been painful, but would it have sent the country spiralling towards a great depression? I doubt it. Hell, we've lost 4 million jobs in the past year and we aren't in a depression. If that's the number ... then we can assume far less at Chrysler given their smaller size ..... but let's just double the amount and make it 40,000 jobs "saved". Is that worth the government spending $61 billion on? Was it worth the government taking over the conpany entirely?
I don't think so. No one has given me a compelling reason to believe otherwise. I believe that this was an attempt by the Democrat controlled government to save as many union jobs as possible ..... and to protect the union's influence in the auto industry .. plain and simple.
And it cost us was $61 billion. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
OK, that's all well and good ... but what are your reasons?
Manufacturing capacity would be way more than needed with a merger with either of the big three Japenese companies...
Dealerships networks in place would be cut even more IMO. I can see a melding of the dealers.. example.. if there is a nissan dealer across the road from a chevy dealer,, I believe one would be gone.. Not sure which, but it doesn't matter. No need for both.
Marketing staffs would eventually be rolled up, Design and engineering would be rolled up, accounting, finance, HR, Purchasing... etc... between the two firms, it could be 1000's of jobs,,,
And then there is the Vendor Netwok... Jobs at suppliers would be elimanated beyond what they already were.
I can't give you exact numbers.. nobody could without a great deal of reseach and since this is all hypothitical, I'm not going to even try...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
OK, that's all well and good ... but what are your reasons?
Manufacturing capacity would be way more than needed with a merger with either of the big three Japenese companies...
Dealerships networks in place would be cut even more IMO. I can see a melding of the dealers.. example.. if there is a nissan dealer across the road from a chevy dealer,, I believe one would be gone.. Not sure which, but it doesn't matter. No need for both.
Marketing staffs would eventually be rolled up, Design and engineering would be rolled up, accounting, finance, HR, Purchasing... etc... between the two firms, it could be 1000's of jobs,,,
And then there is the Vendor Netwok... Jobs at suppliers would be elimanated beyond what they already were.
I can't give you exact numbers.. nobody could without a great deal of reseach and since this is all hypothitical, I'm not going to even try...
However, that hasb't happened since the very earliest of days in the suto industry.
Ford Bought Mazda. You don't see Ford/Mazda dealerships. Chrysler owned a piece of Mitsubishi. You didn;t see joint dealerships. Daimler bought Chrysler. No Mercedes/Chrysler dealerships popped up. GM owned Saab. No Chevy/Saab dealers showed up on the map.
I have seen mergers close up. Typuically, the combined efforts are in areas such as supply chain and by sharing technologies. I worked for a Dodge dealer during the Daimler takeover of Chrysler. No dealerships closed ...... no plants closed ...... they shared parts and technologies .... along with Mitsubishi (who Daimler also ha a stake in) and reduced costs that way.
There really is no basis for your opinion that 1 autp maker taking over another would result in more drastic job losses than occured during the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies. Hell ... I can't remember the last time that GM or Chrysler closed so many of the dealers in one fell swoop. I can't remember GM ever closing 14 plants at once. There really in no reason to believe that the losses would have been even more dramatic if another automaker had taken over rather than the US government picking the bones and buying the best parts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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And in every case you describe, there was never the desparate beginning that this would have involved.. Ytown, you don't agree with me,, that's fine.. I'm ok with that, but I'm not going keep beating a dead horse especially since everything each of us is saying is unsubstanciatable.. it's all assumptions and guess work.. I'm out on this,, talk among yourselves 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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ytown wins. 
yebat' Putin
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Ytown... Defining the Second Great Depression
February 3, 2010
web page
From the moment he was sworn into office, President Obama had a pretty overwhelming task ahead of him. In that month, the economy lost 700,000 jobs. It lost nearly as many the month before. The credit markets had frozen; the financial institutions and auto industry would need undeserved bailouts. Saving the economy from a Second Great Depression would require an enormous effort, huge chunks of political capital, all with no guarantee that any of it would work.
A year later, it has worked. The Second Great Depression was averted. But no one seems to have noticed.
That's certainly understandable. Unemployment is still hovering at 10 percent. The president's budget forecast now predicts that unemployment won't drop below 10 percent until the end of 2010, and won't drop below 8 percent until the year 2012.
This straddles the administration with an especially difficult political problem. The economy is in a dramatically better place than it would have been without the administration's intervention. But because it is still in such a crummy spot, no one is giving the administration any credit.
That, by the way, seems to be as much the administration's fault as anyone else's. Anytime positive economic numbers are reported, administration officials are weary of taking a curtain call. When it was announced last week, for example, that the economy grew 5.7 percent in the fourth quarter of 2009 -- an extraordinary achievement -- Larry Summers described it as a "a statistical recovery and a human recession." The administration's talking points about the budget includes this point: "A year later, the economy is back from the brink -- and is growing again. But this economic growth is cold comfort for the millions of Americans who have lost their job."
All of this is understandable. From a political standpoint, the last thing the administration needs is to sound tone deaf on the economy, to give the Americans the impression that they believe the current state of affairs deserves a mission accomplished banner.
But there is also a substantial risk in having only one possible response to economic news, whether it's good or bad. That kind of dynamic makes it difficult, if not impossible, for voters to have any faith in the economic policies that have worked so effectively thus far.
The other problem is this: Having avoided a Second Great Depression is obviously a big deal. But it's totally abstract. It could have been worse, sure, but how much worse is unclear to almost everyone, even those who are dialed into the daily debate.
The Democrats cannot afford to spend the next two years with the same basic posture about economic progress, without having clearly defined for the American people exactly what it was that we avoided with the Obama economic program.
It won't be easy, but there are already some clear markers that can be used as jumping off points. For example, Hank Paulson, who served as President Bush's Treasury Secretary and who orchestrated the first round of bailouts, has said in recent interviews that, absent the bailouts, he believes the unemployment rate in the country would have hit 25 percent.
Twenty-five percent!
We know that the stimulus bill created or saved two million jobs. But Paulson is making a much grander argument. With a workforce of more than 150 million people, Paulson is suggesting that the administration's continuation of the TARP program saved almost 23 million jobs.
That's what the Second Great Depression would have looked like. Not 15 million people unemployed. Closer to 40 million.
We know that climbing out of the economic hole we find ourselves in is going to take years. We also know that during that time, Republicans will be able to capitalize on economic populist anger to maintain their still relatively weak grip on power.
But if Democrats can't stand up and clearly articulate the nightmare scenario we were saved from, while championing the progress we're making everyday, then the economic disaster that Republicans caused may well be the same disaster that helps them surge back into power.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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mac, how about providing an article of substance and not more biased left wing talking points? About Dylan Loewe
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Mac,
So you are unwilling to answer my questions directly.
A poster in the other forum had a ham sandwich one day. He also helped avert the 2nd Great Depression. Yea!
The writer contends that "Great Depression" was right around the corner. I contend that it was not, and that the measures taken to bail out the UAW were not of broad enough scope to have "saved" anything except some UAW jobs.When the bankruptcy of GM cost 1/3 of the US hourly jobs ..... forgive me if I don't see that as worth a $61 billion investment. The bailout wasn't about saving jobs .... there simoly are not enough US auto manufacturing jobs left at GM to make that a significant portion of the US economy ... it was about protecting union wages and union benefits .... and that cost the taxpayers of this country $61 bilion. Forgive me if I don't see that as a wise investment. We paid out $61 billion to save .... at most .... 80,000 jobs. (If Chrysler has the same number of US manufacturing jobs ... which they do not) The US government spent an average of over $700,000 per job at those 2 companies. How the hell is that a wise investment? Please. I really, really want to know.
I broke down my reasons against this waste of money earlier in thsi thread, and asked you some specific questions that I knew you would never answer, because they cast enormous doubt of some "Great Depression" theory.
You proved me right. You are afraid to, or unable to answer my questions. Which is it mac? Why won't you directly answer my questions, in the same detail I have provided?
Why mac?
Why?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Oh ... and Mac ... just to put that $61 billion that was spent "saving" GM and Chrysler into perspective .....
50,000 people making $50,000 each per year for 25 years = $62,500,000,000. We spent $61,000,000,000 on the auto bailout.
Explain to me please how the $61 billion "investment" to "save" maybe 80,000 US jobs was worthwhile.
Please. I really want to hear this.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm a Software Developer/Engineer who has been in the IT field for 20+ years. My skills are current, and I'm in one of the so-called good fields to be in.
Let me tell you what has happened at our company the last few years. All of the DBAs (database administrators) now work for a consulting firm in Bangalore. Same with most of the System Administrators. Also, customer support is handled 24/7 by the same folks in Bangalore. You know, the people who you call with a problem, and they can barely speak English???
This has been a problem for the last 15 year in the industry, the fault of many administrations. They can pay someone in Bangalore only 1/2 of what they would pay for a similar person in the U.S. And it's not as if most IT/customer support people are overpaid here either.
I think there has to be some severe penalty imposed on companies that do this. I'm not generally for a lot of government regulation, but that's the only way a lot of these companies will stop these practices.
This job drain might not be as dramatic as G.M. etc..., but it certainly affects a lot of people
Last edited by sk8termom; 05/14/10 09:39 PM.
#gmstrong
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As a hearing impaired sort of person, whenever I call these help lines that connect me to some widget in India or Pakistan that can barely speak the language, it's difficult for me to understand these people let alone solve my problem..
I start telling them to connect me to an American and I demand they go to Level Two support with a english speaking American and I get downright nasty until they do.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Quote:
As a hearing impaired sort of person, whenever I call these help lines that connect me to some widget in India or Pakistan that can barely speak the language, it's difficult for me to understand these people let alone solve my problem..
I start telling them to connect me to an American and I demand they go to Level Two support with a english speaking American and I get downright nasty until they do.
Totally agree with you 
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I'm a Software Developer/Engineer who has been in the IT field for 20+ years. My skills are current, and I'm in one of the so-called good fields to be in.
Let me tell you what has happened at our company the last few years. All of the DBAs (database administrators) now work for a consulting firm in Bangalore. Same with most of the System Administrators. Also, customer support is handled 24/7 by the same folks in Bangalore. You know, the people who you call with a problem, and they can barely speak English???
This has been a problem for the last 15 year in the industry, the fault of many administrations. They can pay someone in Bangalore only 1/2 of what they would pay for a similar person in the U.S. And it's not as if most IT/customer support people are overpaid here either.
I think there has to be some severe penalty imposed on companies that do this. I'm not generally for a lot of government regulation, but that's the only way a lot of these companies will stop these practices.
This job drain might not be as dramatic as G.M. etc..., but it certainly affects a lot of people
I'd be in favor of companies paying a significant tax on the wage that is being offshored.... aside from that, however, there isn't much that can or should be done. It is a global economy and we're a free market society. It is a company's right to hire whomever they want for whatever they can get them for. If that is cheaper than you or I, then perhaps we're overpaid for the market value of that job. If nothing else, this sort of thing is holding IT salaries in check when back in the 90's salaries were doubling damn near ever two years. It wasn't uncommon at all for people to constantly hop from one company to the next to the next to the next after only being at each one for 6 months.... salaries were well beyond the point of being untenable and offshoring has slowed that sort thing down dramatically.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I must say, though, it worries me how the economy will survive when jobs get undercut by foreign offers. Also, when it comes down to it, some of the countries where jobs are outsourced don't exactly match our standards of human rights either.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Legend
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Legend
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The Second Great Depression was averted.
Was it averted ..... or was it postponed until such time as it hits us even harder because we are now a trillion dollars deeper in the hole than we were the last time we "averted" it?
Maybe next time we will have to print 3 trillion or 5 trillion or 10 trillion to "avert" it...
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
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My biggest concern is how little american companies seem to care about america.. I mean, I certainly get that they have to produce profits and that means controlling costs.. I get that.. Cheap or Cheaper labor is a key component.. But by moving so many jobs off shore, they are actually, in a small way, weakening the number of americans can actually buy thier products. The other side of that is imported workers.. (legal ones) National City Bank right here in NE Ohio had/has a technology center over by Hopkins airport. That facility had most of the high level systems people located there. They used a company named TaTa which supplied Programmers, DBA etc from India. NCB owned 4 condos on the west side that they used to house those guys. 4 to a condo. They even provided rental vehicles for those guys. I've never been able to confirm the exact $ these guys were paid, but whatever it was, it included a Per Diem, housing, transportation around town as well as travel back and forth to India. The one person that I knew from NCB that was close to the situation said that NCB paid TaTa about 35 to 40 dollars per hour for each guy. Given the markup that I know is needed, that would mean that the employees are getting 12 to 16 per hour. I'm in this business and I'll tell you right now, I'm not going to find a local Programmer or DBA worth a plug nickle for that kinda money.. not someone with REAL skills. Now it's easy to say that 16 guys from India don't really have an effect on the economy, and I'd agree.. except that it isn't just 16.. we are talking thousands of folks from India working in the US... http://www.tata.com/Couple that with those jobs that were shipped over to india and it creates a real problem... Just some outside the box thinking...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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its not that the all companies don't care imo....they are for making a profit....once one company outsources the rest have to follow.... the real failure here is our government not protecting America....all these other countries protect their companies...Japan, China....you name it.... this "world economy" isn't good for workers....its great for the bottom line of a company though... I have no respect for what is being done to us...between them printing money left and right, and companies being free to do what they will for profit, America is screwed....add in millions that feel they are entitled, and its just a matter of time before the whole thing comes crashing down... I'm old school...i think the federal gov't should be small, and the states should be doing most of the lawmaking....we should follow that Constitution thing  we've got 50 little countries right here....free trade only works if its totally free, and that will never happen....we should go back to tariffs like we used to have...then there would be jobs aplenty.... everyone cries unions, or greed...fact is everyone wants more...companies and workers alike.... its a damn shame whats happening to this country...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Legend
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Legend
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once one company outsources the rest have to follow....
I have a client, used to employ upwards of 2000 people in NE Ohio at thier manufacturing facility.
In order to stay price competitive, they had to close manufacturing here and move it out of the country. My clients competitors are all US companies as well.. not one of thier products is made in the US anymore..
They are now about 250 people total.. that's it. sales, marketing engineering and service/repair.
The people at that company hated doing it, but it was that or die.....
I should point out, I've asked many times, hows the quality of your product made outside the US... Senior level guys simply say it's getting better.. but if you talk to the line management guys,, they will tell you they are experiencing huge problems..
Yet, even with the problems, it's still cheaper to make the stuff off shore...
You say this:
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the real failure here is our government not protecting America....all these other countries protect their companies...Japan, China....you name it....
But then you say this:
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I'm old school...i think the federal gov't should be small, and the states should be doing most of the lawmaking....we should follow that Constitution thing
I honestly don't see how this applies.. I don't see how one state or the other is going to stem the tide of jobs and business being outsourced...
It will take an effort by the Federal Government to make that happen and even then, I'm not sure it will work....
I can see states taking a stand against outsourcing.. but I can also then see companies saying,,, we're moving to another state.. one that isn't taking that stand against outsourcing.
I feel the frustration I'm hearing in your writing.. no question, the quest for profits by corporations and the quest for higher wages and the government intervention with mandates have come together to cause the problems we see today.
I don't have a solution.. I wish I did...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Hall of Famer
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everyone cries unions, or greed...fact is everyone wants more...companies and workers alike....
First thing Brownielf,your whole post was spot on, I could not have said it any better.
As far as the unions and companies, it takes a balance. Unions and companies have had to to(for the most part) come to the realization that they want the same things and to achieve that they need to work together,and together they are stronger. It is when one side gets to greedy, sometimes both sides, that things go to hell.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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There's a company close to here - like 4 miles away. They've been outsourcing more and more. Laying off more and more. From about 350 total down to about 175 now - and the plan is to have nothing but a skeletal staff within a few years.......1 person to answer the phone, 10-15 in "help"/sales positions - and all manufacturing done over seas.
That follows a company that employed well over 200 that just recently closed - Costa Rica I believe, was the beneficiary of that.
And for mac - that company was in the automotive parts manufacturing industry - and they took the money and closed anyway - only to re-open in Costa Rica. (I think it was Costa Rica - it's not in the u.s., I guarantee that.)
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Hall of Famer
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There's a company close to here - like 4 miles away. They've been outsourcing more and more. Laying off more and more. From about 350 total down to about 175 now - and the plan is to have nothing but a skeletal staff within a few years.......1 person to answer the phone, 10-15 in "help"/sales positions - and all manufacturing done over seas.
That follows a company that employed well over 200 that just recently closed - Costa Rica I believe, was the beneficiary of that.
And for mac - that company was in the automotive parts manufacturing industry - and they took the money and closed anyway - only to re-open in Costa Rica. (I think it was Costa Rica - it's not in the u.s., I guarantee that.)
That is FTAA working well for us After NAFTA was passed a lot of manufacturing moved to Mexico and the working conditions down there were deporable. As more and more of the Mexicans wised up and began to unionize and demand fair wages and safe working conditions they passed FTAA which extends NAFTA to include all of Latin AMerican and the Carribean nations. Many people in Latin America who have attempted to unionize have shown up dead.
Greed is a mighty powerful thing. 
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
There's a company close to here - like 4 miles away. They've been outsourcing more and more. Laying off more and more. From about 350 total down to about 175 now - and the plan is to have nothing but a skeletal staff within a few years.......1 person to answer the phone, 10-15 in "help"/sales positions - and all manufacturing done over seas.
That follows a company that employed well over 200 that just recently closed - Costa Rica I believe, was the beneficiary of that.
And for mac - that company was in the automotive parts manufacturing industry - and they took the money and closed anyway - only to re-open in Costa Rica. (I think it was Costa Rica - it's not in the u.s., I guarantee that.)
That's what so scary about the outsourced jobs. There's just going to be more and more of them, and they are permanently lost to U.S. workers, whether or not there is an economic "recovery". These are good manufacturing, IT, customer service positions.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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After NAFTA was passed a lot of manufacturing moved to Mexico and the working conditions down there were deporable.
I've never been to Mexico to see any manufacturing areas.. But a friend of mine visits often because his company moved manufacturing to Mexico.
he was there when the movement to Mex started and says things like the standard of living down there hasn't really improved overall.
Like I said, I've not seen it personally..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Quote:
After NAFTA was passed a lot of manufacturing moved to Mexico and the working conditions down there were deporable.
I've never been to Mexico to see any manufacturing areas.. But a friend of mine visits often because his company moved manufacturing to Mexico.
he was there when the movement to Mex started and says things like the standard of living down there hasn't really improved overall.
Like I said, I've not seen it personally..
When I traveled to Guatemala for our son's adoption, I noticed all kinds of huge manufacturing facilities for clothing companies, drug (legal!) companies etc.. And Guatemala is still the 2nd poorest country (Haiti is the poorest) in the Western Hemisphere. So I don't see these jobs doing a lot for Guatemala's standard of living.
#gmstrong
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
After NAFTA was passed a lot of manufacturing moved to Mexico and the working conditions down there were deporable.
I've never been to Mexico to see any manufacturing areas.. But a friend of mine visits often because his company moved manufacturing to Mexico.
he was there when the movement to Mex started and says things like the standard of living down there hasn't really improved overall.
Like I said, I've not seen it personally..
I went down there on a trip with the AFL-CIO as a delegate from the Steelworkers. We went down to visit a plant where the workers were attempting to unionize. I just cant describe how horrible the working conditions were. I believe the workers were making about $7 a day,no benefits,no workers compensation,no medical care if they were hurt on the job,which many of them were due to how unsafe this place was. Many of the people lived in shantys built from cardboard boxes from the plant and the plant used to charge the people for the cardboard boxes that they were throwing away anyways.
At that point they had already lost five people who were murdered due to trying to organize the workers. Just completely and totally sad and depressing.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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Interestingly enough - where my wife works.....they went from somewhere around 3400 to 3600 employees down to, well, know it's around 2000 or just under.
And, they had a lot of manufacturing move to china.
The interesting part is, the buyers (wal mart, office depot, lowe's, staples, etc) said "hey, the workmanship/quality isn't there anymore - what are you going to do about it? Plus, when we want something, we want it now - not 6 weeks down the road.
And the company said - well, we can't do that when the products are mostly made in china - we can't supply them in less than 6 weeks. We can make them here, but it will cost more. And the retailers unanimously said "okay".
Now, the quality could've gone up - but the delivery time could not be expedited - and the retailers were fine with that, as long as they got product when they needed it - not weeks later.
I do think people and companies are waking up.
I also think it doesn't matter. This country is screwed due to the debt - and what does our gov't. do? Add new programs, which equals new, bigger debt.
The only people in this country that have seen what we are facing is the old generation - the one's that were kids during the great depression. The rest of us? We'll find out what poor means - within at tops 10 years - but I feel more like 5 years. It is crashing down upon us, and the flimsy umbrella isn't going to cut it.
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Good post Arch.
I think companies and individual consumers are getting wise to the crap that is coming out of China.
Hopefully it is not too late for us all.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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