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See mac, this is why nobody takes you seriously...
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Nice try, but you damn well know the economy tanked on Bush's watch as he exited and the cause was bush's 8 yrs trickle down economic GOP policy that did not work...yet again.
You say stuff like this with a straight face but you refuse to acknowledge the fact that as Bush was taking office the economy was also tanking, the NASDAQ was in deep trouble, we had lost almost half a million manufacturing jobs in Clintons last year, the tech boom was over... a lot of the foundation for the housing boom/bust was put in place by Clinton... then shortly after he took office, 9/11. A few years after that, Katrina..
See you want to offer up all kinds of Bush blaming excuses for your boy Obama but Bush gets no such latitude with you.. and that's why nobody takes you seriously...
I know that when a guy demands answer to his questions, and people give them, yet that same person runs away and hides at the first hint of a question - well, I have no respect for them. None.
People like that are a joke.
He has never answered a question of mine. In fact, I bet he hasn't answered 2% of the questions asked of him.
Hold on now - we'll get another article from him soon.
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See mac, this is why nobody takes you seriously...
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Nice try, but you damn well know the economy tanked on Bush's watch as he exited and the cause was bush's 8 yrs trickle down economic GOP policy that did not work...yet again.
You say stuff like this with a straight face but you refuse to acknowledge the fact that as Bush was taking office the economy was also tanking, the NASDAQ was in deep trouble, we had lost almost half a million manufacturing jobs in Clintons last year, the tech boom was over... a lot of the foundation for the housing boom/bust was put in place by Clinton... then shortly after he took office, 9/11. A few years after that, Katrina..
See you want to offer up all kinds of Bush blaming excuses for your boy Obama but Bush gets no such latitude with you.. and that's why nobody takes you seriously...
I know that when a guy demands answers to his questions, and people give them, yet that same person runs away and hides at the first hint of a question directed at him - well, I have no respect for them. None.
People like that are a joke.
He has never answered a question of mine. In fact, I bet he hasn't answered 2% of the questions asked of him.
Hold on now - we'll get another article from him soon.
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You know, I can't help but wonder if mac is really Obama making these posts. The two of them are identical: -neither of them will answer any questions -they both blame Bush for every problem in the world -neither of them have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to the economy.  
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See mac, this is why nobody takes you seriously...
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Nice try, but you damn well know the economy tanked on Bush's watch as he exited and the cause was bush's 8 yrs trickle down economic GOP policy that did not work...yet again.
You say stuff like this with a straight face but you refuse to acknowledge the fact that as Bush was taking office the economy was also tanking, the NASDAQ was in deep trouble, we had lost almost half a million manufacturing jobs in Clintons last year, the tech boom was over... a lot of the foundation for the housing boom/bust was put in place by Clinton... then shortly after he took office, 9/11. A few years after that, Katrina..
See you want to offer up all kinds of Bush blaming excuses for your boy Obama but Bush gets no such latitude with you.. and that's why nobody takes you seriously...
DC...but I did not say, jobs were not lost under Clinton...did I?
Matter of fact, I have criticized Clinton for NAFTA, which has cost the manufacturing base of this country, thousands of jobs. Guess you missed my criticizing of Clinton...
That said, didn't Republicans support NAFTA?
For any administration, when the Presidency changes, there is a carry over effect for a year of so, until the new administration begins to formulate their own economic agenda.
What Clinton did in his last year affected the Bush administration's economic numbers for a year, until Bush had his economic program in place. It all takes time...a President does not take office and suddenly the economy stops the direction it is headed and reverses coarse...it just does not work that way.
Just as Bush's first year economic numbers were affected by Clinton's economic policies and the direction of the economy, so was Obama's economic numbers affected by what Bush did in his last year, concerning the economy and the direction of the economy.
I admit and never have claimed that Clinton policies did not have an affect on the economy Bush took over.
Therefore, same is true for Obama...what Bush did in the last year of his administration definitely had an affect on the Obama administration's economy for a year after he took office in Jan. 2008.
Here are the labor depts. figures for manufacturing jobs over the last 10 yrs.
web page
2000...... 17,263,000
2001...... 16,441,000
2002...... 15,259,000
2003...... 14,510,000
2004...... 14,315,000
2005...... 14,226,000
2006...... 14,155,000
2007...... 13,879,000
2008...... 13,406,000
2009...... 11,883,000
Bush inherited a decline when he took office and some say officially, the recession started two months after Bush took office. As I have said, that is not how the economy works and Bush should not get the blame for the decline in the economy that started while Clinton was in office.
Obama inherited an economy on the heals of the stock market crash from Oct 1 to Oct 10, 2008 and jobs began to disappear from that moment and the carry over affects on jobs accelerated during 2009.
Just the facts...
Last edited by mac; 05/17/10 07:48 PM.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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My ppint, which I think got lost, is that major US manufacturing companies, like auto manufacturers, etc., cannot survive in today's world on US sales alone. GM now sell as many cars in China as it does in th US. They are still struggling to survive. Emerging markets have to be part of their sales strategy, because increasing their sales in the US market alone is all but impossible. My point about TVs and the like is that people own 4-5 of them because they are so cheap. If TV cost $800 for a low end model, and $10,000 for the most expensive model, people would have 1, or maybe 2 in their homes at most. Same for computers, and other electronics. People own more, and the market expanded past "saturation" because of extraordinarily low prices. "I don't really need another TV ..... but since this one is only $300, I can put one in the basement for when I'm working down there ...". 99% of the homes in the US have at least 1 TV. That's maket saturation .... so the next option was to come up with the "next big thing" as far as TV technology .... and to cut prices to the bone to move more units. I think we can agree that this has happened so that the television industry has been able to sell merchandise despite market saturation. That's harder to do with higher end merchandise .... like cars .... It just doesn't work. Speaing of cars .... in 2007, with a total population of 300 million (give or take a thousand here or there) the US had a total of 254 passenger vehicles registered. Source Given that not every citizen is of driving age .... and that not every citizen lives in an area where owning a car makes sense (like in New York, etc) the market is saturated with vehicles. People are holding on to their cars longer. The average age of our vehicles has steadily increased since the 60s. (same link) There is not tons of room to expand the US market. Opportunities for growth are limited. US manufacturers must sell worldwide as well if they are to survive. I hope I've explained my points a little better.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Bottom line is we lost the jobs because those people we grossly overpaid.
No other reason.
Then we became a buy on the cheap society....looking for the cheapest clothes, goods, everything....and it became what it is today.
I'll bet dollars to donuts the "American Worker" was the first group to quit buying "American Produced Goods" in favor of cheap imports.
Pay the very average American Auto worker $30-40/hr in compensation package and no wonder the American Auto Worker priced themselves out of jobs.
American Auto Workers of the past 40 years are the reason we don't have much of a auto industry anymore.
The should be ashamed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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China has said it overtook the United States to become the world's biggest car and van market in 2009. The China Association of Automobile Manufacturers said 13.6 million vehicles were sold within the country last year. That compares with just over 10 million vehicles in the US, which was previously the world's largest market. Unlike the US, China's figures include heavy trucks, but they added just 650,000 to the total. That meant China was still comfortably ahead in terms of private car sales, which were 53% higher than in 2008. The top three companies in terms of sales are all joint ventures with the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation. SAIC-GM-Wuling sold just short of one million vehicles, Shanghai Volkswagen sold 728,200 while another SAIC-GM tie-up, Shanghai GM, accounted for 708,000 sales. Part of the rise was due to moves by the government to stimulate demand. These included cuts in sales tax for small cars. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8451887.stmAnd China is about to experience a real estate bubble burst like we did a couple years ago. So I don't look for these number to continue to increase.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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 ...nuff said
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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And if we're playing "gotcha", we could sure use the 4 million jobs lost since Obama took office.
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yt...lol..who lost those jobs...the jobs you want Obama to take credit for?
Nice try, but you damn well know the economy tanked on Bush's watch as he exited and the cause was bush's 8 yrs trickle down economic GOP policy that did not work...yet again.
Wall St. needed bailed out and the American people wondered if we had another stock market crash on our hands and closed their wallets, businesses of all kinds slowed...that GOP "trickle down" effect lead to the US laying off workers by the thousands long after the cause, which happened on Bush's watch in the fall of 2008.
One of the reasons Obama's stimulus plan had to be so large was, at that time, no one knew just how bad the economy was going to get since we were in the early stages of the recession/possible depression. Some experts actually thought Obama's stim plan was not large enough.
Think about this...according to your GOP sources...Bush's right hand man on economic issues...had Obama not bailed out GM and Chrysler, 25 million Americans would have lost their jobs...again, your GOP source that you want to ignore.
So, while ditto heads like to credit Obama for all the job layoffs, those who know truth from friction know those jobs were lost the day Bush announced that Wall St. had to be bailed out...the layoff had not occurred yet but they were on the way.
BTW...how do you like Bush's record for upholding our trade laws...0 for 7 on action taken to help American workers who prevailed in their ITC cases.
Had Obama not supported the Americans who make tires, when they prevailed in their ITC complaint against China for dumping cheap tires in the USA, how many more thousands of Ohio workers would be out of jobs today?
Youngstown...they make tires in your area of Ohio...do you have any friends or relatives who could have lost their jobs, had Obama not stopped China from devastating yet another Ohio manufacturing industry?
Why did Bush side with companies and against workers, 7 times, when the workers won their cases before ITC?
Tell everyone what a good job the GOP does for working class people here in Ohio.
Why does the GOP hate working class folks in Ohio?
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Then we became a buy on the cheap society....looking for the cheapest clothes, goods, everything....and it became what it is today.
I remember when buying a VCR was more like an investment, you did research, you read consumer reports, you talked to the professionals, it was going to cost you hundreds of dollars and you wanted one that would last... Now if I need a DVD player I run out to Target and pick one up for $50 and if it breaks 6 months from now, I'll toss it and go get a new one.
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I'll bet dollars to donuts the "American Worker" was the first group to quit buying "American Produced Goods" in favor of cheap imports.
One only needs to stand outside of Walmart for a few minutes to see that it's not the CEOs and corporate execs shopping there. It's the plumbers and the factory workers and the janitors and the truckers and the housewives.. the middle and lower middle class is the reason Walmart grew into what it is.
yebat' Putin
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I remember when buying a VCR was more like an investment, you did research, you read consumer reports, you talked to the professionals, it was going to cost you hundreds of dollars and you wanted one that would last... Now if I need a DVD player I run out to Target and pick one up for $50 and if it breaks 6 months from now, I'll toss it and go get a new one.
Then I must be crazy because that's how I do it
I still look up cnet and places like that for my $50 DVD player. I am not rich, but I do pretty well for myself. So it is not a "I can't afford it" issue...I still look at PC User and others to find out which $30 DVD Writer is perfoming the best whether the Plextor or the Sony, etc...to put into my PC's. I will gladly pay that $5-$10 more for that Plextor over that Sansui or whatever non named brand piece of hardware even if we are talking about a piece that cost $25. Not for everything but for many things, I figure out exactly what I want and then I shop like crazy for the absolute best price for it.
I don't think I could just buy something with the thought of "Oh well, if it breaks in 6 months I will just buy another one"....It damn well better not break in 6 months. Heck I am not even sure I take that attitude with Pens and pencils...LOL
But maybe I am in the minority....lol
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Let's see .... Denman Tires just filed for bankruptcy. Did they make tires effected by this ....? No. They made tires for the construction, agriculture and mining industries. Cardinal Tire.. which is a tire recycling operation, was just purchased by a larger operation. They make rubber "mulch" like you find in most stores these days. Mitsubishi has some heavy tire plant in Leetonia.I believe I heard something about them adding workers recently. That's about it out this way. The only tire manufacturer effected by this was ...... no one. Mac, what was the 8 year cycle that ended when Clinton left office?  Oh ... and why do you continue to try to associate me with the GOP? I dislike BOTH parties, and have said so on so many occasions that a monkey could understand my position by now. The traditionally stated policies and standards of the Reublican Party are closer to my own than those of the Democrats. However ... and let me say this one more time ...... And really ..... Really ...... Really ...... Really slowly ...... BOTH PARTIES ARE SCREWING THIS COUNTRY ON A DAILY, WEEKLY, MONTHLY, AND ANNUAL BASIS BECAUSE THERE IS DAMN NEAR NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE RESULT THEY PRODUCE!!!. Was that clear enough for you? Did you undertand that? Do I need to repeat myself once more? Do I need to use smaller words? Should I find a blog somewhere for you to read? Maybe if I write to the Huffington Rag you'll finally underastand.  Quote:
Tell everyone what a good job the GOP does for working class people here in Ohio.
Why does the GOP hate working class folks in Ohio?
What the hell have the Democrats ... with 25+ years of uninterrupted rule .... done for Youngstown? Let me answer that for you.
Despite many Presidential candidates showing up and giving lip service ....... Not a damn thing. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Nunca. Not so much as the sweat off their .. armpits.
So, you'll forgive me if I somehow see the Democrats as some great savior riding to the rescue of my hometown. The Democrats are invested in keeping the area down ... because that keeps their base alive. Let this area suddenly become an area where most residents actually pay taxes and have jobs .... and the Democrats, with their 2.75% city income tax, and massive spending .. and constant poor mouthing ..... and "running out of money so we're laying off police and firemen" ..... would be run out of town on a rail. (or floating down the river)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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I must say, though, it worries me how the economy will survive when jobs get undercut by foreign offers. Also, when it comes down to it, some of the countries where jobs are outsourced don't exactly match our standards of human rights either.
what if American standards of living are too high? Should we be conditioned to live at a lower standard of living?...I think the Americans could do it. They did it in '29...Humans are animals in some ways and can be conditioned in some ways. The Indians and Chinese live at what we'd consider "third-world" standards but to them it's middle-class.
What if America's floor/ceiling are too high?...if Americans were trained to live on very little, they could be conditioned to work on less wages and want less stuff.
Go Browns!
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It's possible, but it would be a huge change for many many people, and not just in living conditions, but in way of life.
We as a society have spread out, away from the city's, where most countries remain in closer proximity to their work centers, allowing for a better public transit.
We also have higher costs period. Electricity, water, food. It would take living in a cardboard box under a bridge and eating 1 meal a week to live on what some of the people in India and China make.
What needs to change is the mindset that the cheapest item is the most economical. While it may be true at the moment of purchase, it has a trickling effect. And the "buy American" needs to take new life. And that is not to mean only American owned companies, but products that are produced and manufactured in America using American workers, regardless of who owns the company.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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It absolutely is an answer, and potentially the only one that would have any lasting, far reaching impact.... but I think that it would take a full blown revolution for it to happen. It'd also take a government not hellbent on propping up every damned industry that farts in the wind when it loses a dollar. It'd also take a wholesale drop in national cost of living across the board.... which is why it'd take a revolution - the economy as we know it would have to implode. So... we may not be all that far off 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think the decline of our economy is a few things:
1) loss of manufacturing and a market correction of wages...auto workers at $30/hr should not make more than journalists with university degrees at $15/hr...maybe about the same.
2) american media has said we "need" the latest gadget and we go out and buy it...we should live simply--not necessarily like monks or priests, but at a much lower level. But we're conditioned to have disposable items/income...if it sucks, get rid of it in 6mos. VCR example was great.
3) the decay of family life and the single-parent household...we need to work with 2 incomes instead of 1 to survive.
4) there's more but I have to run...will get back later. I was born in Manila, Phillipines and they're not quite Third World, but "Second World..." they have internet and running water but there are places (Cebu) that rival Haiti for living conditions.
Go Browns!
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2) american media has said we "need" the latest gadget and we go out and buy it...we should live simply--not necessarily like monks or priests, but at a much lower level. But we're conditioned to have disposable items/income...if it sucks, get rid of it in 6mos. VCR example was great.
liked your post but need to add to this part.. the biggest problem is that not only do we do all of that, but we do a lot of it on credit....
Sure a lot of blame was heaped around the mortgage crisis, a lot on the banks, a lot on the regulators, a lot on the borrowers.. but the fact is that when people wanted bigger and newer homes, the lenders came up with zero down, interest only loans and some such crap.. As car prices went up and wages remained stagnant, did we demand cheaper cars? No, banks started making 6 and 7 year auto loans so they could get the monthly payment down where we could have cars that we really couldn't afford... vacations, furniture, jewelry, college, groceries, utility bills.. on credit.
I don't begrudge anybody living a great lifestyle, but do it with your own money. Heck if people just went back to living within their existing means, lifestyles would automatically go down... and it would be a good thing.
yebat' Putin
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But then not everyone would be equal. No way the McDonalds drive-thru girl could afford that Escalade, 60" LCD TV, 4000sqft home. We can't have people not being equal.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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But she shouldn't have to charge those things, the government should just GIVE them to her.
yebat' Putin
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#gmstrong
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But that's part of the problem. We are saturated with goods, and people buy what they want on credit as much as, or more than, they pay cash. People have 4-6 TVs. Multiple cars in their families. Multiple computers. Hell, I'm single and have 3 TVs. 2 computers .. I had 2 cars before I sold one of them .... People take about getting people to buy more American made goods .... but then they complain that people are using crerit to buy things ..... It really is coming down to 1 or the other. GM wants to get back into the sub-prime lending game in the US. They cannot sell enough cars to only people with good credit to support their US operations to the extent that they want. Many responsible people with good credit are holding off on big purchases if they can. Many people with poor credit will buy whenever they can find someone to loan them money. I look at it like this: How many credit worthy people, who have deep roots in a community, and plan on raising their kids prefer to rent a home? I would guess that it's a very small munber, unless the people in question live in a big city with obscene housig prices. I would think that a majority of people with deep roots, established jobs, and good credit own their own homes. (and this is just a guess on my part) Now, some of those people might want to upgrade .... if their family grows ...... their income increases dramatically .... or other such fortuitous situations arise ..... but most aren't moving right away unless they have to. Or unless they can be convinced to. If responsible people, with good credit and money in the bank (20% for a home purchase)aren't buying .... then who does that leave to sell houses to? This is partly where the recent lending mess came into play. Too few qualified buyers were buying homes .... so they had to epand the market. This meant lending to less and less credit worthy people ..... and lending more to all people. It meant relaxing (to be kind) lending guidelines. I would guess that there are some people with really good credit who got caught up in the recent lending debacle .... but I would further guess that the vast majority were people with average to poor credit. Lenders expanded their base. In order to expand the market and sell more homes, they had to do something. Besides .... no one really got hurt, right? I am worried because we have this massive consumer economy ..... but it's largely tapped out. Unless thereis easy credit for those who are less than credit worthy, there will likely be a lot of product marked way down, or rotting on the shelves. Small products will move. Bigger products are harder to move. I would close with a question: Is anyone reading this ... who has excellent credit ..... in a rush to go out and spend thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars on credit purchases?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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