DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Questions about the o-line, qb and rb...

I want some opinions on this question, I have my own thoughts on it but will weigh in on it as to not to distort my question.

We are on of the most sacked teams in the league this year, and can't seem to run the ball: Is Frye really that good at avoiding the sacks and our o-line just lets Frye get sacked every 8 times we go back to pass? Or is Frye to be blamed for holding the ball to long and that in turn makes the line look worse than it really is?

Same basis of questions regarding the RB and o-line: Is Droughns to slow to hit the hole when it is open or does the line not hold the point of attack long enough for any RB to get through the hole?

Matter of opinion, to everyone. Personally I think that if you get a good enough O-line, you can make average qb's look good and rb's look great. Just ask Denver. They have prolly the worst starting QB in the NFL, yet he doesn't look all that bad behind that Oline. And I don't really think I need to say anything about their running game.

and look at Romo.. OMG!! this guy is smiling more than Hines Ward!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

teams are already treating him like a vet by not blitzing all the time.. i dont understand.. yet when teams play the cleveland browns.. their game plan is BLITZ!! lol...

Romo sucks at the deep ball. All his passes are quick. He has Glenn, Owens and Witten - all incredible vets who can get open quickly. 4 of his 5 TDs on Sunday were under 10 yds, 3 under 5.

Frye is always 3rd and 9 or 10 instead of 3rd and 2 or 3. He is a much better QB at 3rd and 2. In fact all QBs are much better at 3rd and 2. I blame the O-line for most of our problems this year.

[color:"white"]The answers to these questions can be best solved by rewatching the games. Use bittorrent and watch'em, that way you can decide for yourself, as you're going to get conflicting opinions which won't clear the picture up much. You'll just have to decide who you believe.

I've rewatched several of the games this year. While Frye HAS held onto the ball too long causing some sacks, he's avoided FAR more than he's caused.

In the games that I've rewatched, he's avoided at least 6 more sacks than he's caused. The number is most likely higher. If you rewatch the games, you'll see that the interior of the line has been very sad this year. If you want help figuring out how do to that, just ask.

As far as Droughns goes, you're going to get mostly bad opinions of his lack of speed, but that isn't the problem. Again, rewatch the games. You'll see that the talk that he's too slow to hit a hole is nothing more than looking for a reason as to why we can't run the ball. It's not hating on Droughns, it's searching for a reason.

Droughns' numbers went WAY south the very moment Frye was inserted as the starter last year. The difference between the pre-Frye era and the post-Frye era (so to speak) is shocking. Now that isn't to say Frye is the reason he can't run now (some idiot would take it that way and run with it), but during his rookie year, teams stacked the line daring the rookie 3rd rounder to beat them. That's nothing more than smart football. However, during that time, our offensive line got banged up and didn't play nearly as well as they did in the first 12 games.

This year, the line has been putrid. They aren't strong enough to open holes, and aren't atheletic enough to get to the 2nd level to take on linebackers. About the only one who can do that is Fraley, and he lacks power. Tucker is our only quality lineman who has power, and he's been hurt (sick). Rewatch the games. Look for these things. Droughns didn't suddenly stop being the guy he was for the first 12 games of last year. Frye didn't suddenly just lay down causing all these sack numbers. Our two primary backs, Wright and Droughns, both are averaging 3.1 yards per carry. That doesn't have anything to do with burst, but everything to do with the lack of blocking prowess by our sorry line.

Rewatch the games. The answers are there. See them with your own eyes.[/color]

the funny part with Rube will be next year ... if hes still around and we dont get Turner or someone else (please lord let us get Turner) ... all of a sudden with the schedule we play against not so many good run D's .... Rube will magically re-gain his ability to get to a hole and get his vision back ... *LOL* ..

Personally I think that if you get a good enough O-line, you can make average qb's look good and rb's look great.

I think that most people who really know about football would share this opinion. Even Steve Smith would not look good here.

[color:"white"]If the price is right, I'd love to get Turner.

Rube needs to split carries to get 100% out of him. The one game this year where he did get 30+ carries he was worn out by the 30th one. I saw him break a run to the outside, and stumbled a bit as he made the cut. I think he's a good guy to use at the end of the games when the D-line is tired.

As far as perception, I couldn't agree more <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[/color]

[color:"orange"]A lot of it is split right down the middle.

Running:
Can't be totally on the OL : RD has looked quite lethargic in his running style compared not to great RBs but to RD from last season. That is a fact my eyes just don't lie to me.

Can't be totally on the OL as we were able to run against Pitt...I can't remember us ever running against Pitt and the 3-4 D. But it was refreshing also to see the young backs hitting the hole a little faster...in the NFL a nano second makes a big difference.

Now I'm saying totally on the OL which means yes, the OL has to take some blame on our lack of running game without a doubt. We haven't been able to stretch the run horizontal at all cause our OL just aren't athletic enough to get outside...again nano seconds...it works both ways. You stretch it outside and you get cut back lanes.

Passing. Yes CF does account for a lot of the sacks...I'd say about 50% of them are coverage type sacks meaning he could have gotten the ball away. Sometimes its a curse of a mobile QB they will hang onto the ball a lot longer than the immobile ones. One thing I have seen as an improvement from the interior is the base of the pocket seems well formed and doesn't breakdown as often as experienced in the past. Still the interior has made some major mistakes which we pay for...CF's fumble last week-Andruzzi getting badly beaten one on one. So they aren't all on CF. But he needs to get confident in his reads and get rid of the ball quickly and correctly...that would help the OL a long way. But it would be nice to someday have an OL who doesn't need help <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

JMHO - Oh and I want Turner too...Marion Barber III...Lynch or any young stud from the draft.

We could have a better RB. We could have a better QB. But our record wouldn't be a whole lot better. We've needed to upgrade the OL since '99.

What a damn shame we've kept the same line since 1999. No wonder we can't buy a win....errrr...wait a second....Phil has been continually upgrading the line since he's been here. It's a hell of a lot better than it was in 1999. The fact that we've had a lot of injuries (usually from trying to protect QBs who can't decide what to do with the damn ball) is not the same thing as neglecting the OL. In fact, some of the first signings Phil made were OL during both free agency periods.

If we had a QB that could make decisions at the speed of the NFL, we wouldn't need to assemble the best OL in the history of the NFL, just so Charlie can "develop" into a mediocre quarterback.

The OL needed to be upgraded after the '99 season...and it needs to be upgraded after the '06 season.
Either that or the D's we play have to count to 3 Mississippi.

[color:"white"]The OL needed to be upgraded after the '99 season...and it needs to be upgraded after the '06 season.
Either that or the D's we play have to count to 3 Mississippi. [/color]

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> .... frickin hysterical ..... and if its 3 Mississippi ... no blitzing .... if they wanna blitz were gonna have to go 5 Mississippi ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

It's a fast count <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
After reading Phils comments he knows the questions..does he know how to answer them?
He should..he has to focus on those weak areas..get them right..

[color:"white"]NRTU,

In case everyone hasn't gotten it yet, and yes, there's a bunch of folks that still don't, today should drive the point home that this line SUCKS. EVERYTHING that's going wrong on offense is because the line is absolutely pathetic.

Rack up 4 more sacks and NUMEROUS tough hits and blown assignments by the line today. We're now on pace to blow well past the 60 sack mark for the year while averaging LESS than 3.1 yards per carry by all our backs. But no.........It's not all the line's fault <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Wright and Harrison with their "burst" and "speed" did exactly what today against a Bengals defense that's been a sieve against the run? Remember this: Droughns averaged 4.5 yards per carry right up until the point where Frye was inserted as the starter, and the line fell apart due to injury and ineffective play. Since then, he's averaged 3.1 yards per carry.

I walked out of the sports bar with 12 minutes left. Harrison had just been given a huge running lane on a draw because the Bengals were in "first to the quarterback next gets a box of donuts" mode. That accounted for 15 meaningless yards.

Prior to that, Harrison had 3 carries for 3 yards, Droughns 1 carry for 2 yards, and Wright about 12 yards on 5 carries. Any rocket scientists care to do the math on what that averages out to? <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Don't tell me that we did it against the Steelers either. They are gettin' shutout 27-0, and the sad rushing offense of the Ravens isn't looking so pathetic today.

Droughns isn't the problem while the badly over-valued burst of Harrison and Wright aren't the answer. Want the answer?

[color:"orange"]FIX THE FREAKIN' PATHETIC ASS LINE.[/color][/i][/b]

Time to wake up people. Andruzzi has been done for a year, Coleman is sad, and I'm sorry to LJ Shelton that I've said Shaffer is better than he is, because he's right now THE worst starting left tackle in the entire NFL.

Boy, I can't wait to get the replay of this game. The O-line is gonna take a well-deserved beating.[/color]

Sorry ...... but IMHO, that's just not true. The line isn't made up of 5 All Pros .... but they aren't nearly as bad as made out to be. They are in an unwinnable situation in that they have a poor QB who doesn't get an ounce of respect from te opposing defense. The opposing defense doesn't think that Frye can hurt them .... so they sell out and are correct to do so most of the time.

Put a QB like a Brees, Palmer, or any other QB who can read a defense and make fast decisions and this line would suddenly become average. We saw it last year when Dilfer was the QB. Hey! Our bums aren't as bad as we thought! Dilfer passed 333 times and was sacked 23 times. By comparison, Carson Palmer had passed 322 times prior ro today's game, and was sacked 27 times. Frye starts the last 5 games, and is sacked 22 times in 164 pass attempts. Yep .. it's all the line. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

The QB has to help himself in certain circumstances. He has to see, diagnose, and throw .... knowing that he has a second or 2 to do so. Other teams have QBs who can do this. We don't.

Of course .... it's easier to just blast the line, saying it's all their fault.

[color:"white"]Rewatch the games in slomo Ytown. You won't like what you see from the line.

Shaffer was beaten time after time after time today, 'Druzzi has nothing left, Coleman doesn't move well at all, and then there's Fraley, who's not doing as poorly as they are, but can't make up the difference for just how bad the other three are doing.

Teams don't respect Frye because they don't HAVE to respect him. Why give cushion to receivers when they know the rush will force Frye to get rid of the ball way too quickly? He made a couple of FANTASTIC throws to Cribbs (who is never going to be a receiver, by the way, so people need to stop pimping him as such) and to Dropcutt when he had time. As the game went on and the Bengals figured out we couldn't handle their rush, they simply let the dogs loose and pummelled him.

Frye is never going to be a QB who can make the throws that Palmer does. He's going to make solid mid-route passes and buy time with his legs. But if someone like Palmer were the QB, he'd have been sacked 50 times allready.

Blaming Frye for the line's blocking just doesn't wash. They don't respect our passing game because they know they don't have to drop very deep in order to go after the ball.

Chuck looked good at the start of the game when he had a shred of time. After that he looked horrid. Blame him for the two pathetic throws in the 2nd half. He deserves it. However, give him credit for making good decisions and throws when he did have time.

The line is the problem. Remember, they are on pace to give up something like 65 sacks right now. That's WITH Frye being able to move around and avoid them. Until that's fixed, we won't really know if Frye is the answer or not. And keep in mind that I don't personally believe he's the answer right now.

The second bit of evidence is the lack of a running game. Sure, Wright and Harrison have the burst that Droughns doesn't (not that such a thing was a problem before this line wen't south last year <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" /> ) but to have all three of our backs averaging less than 3.1 yards per carry? Please. It's the line. It's been the line since the end of last year, and if these stiffs are retained as starters, it'll be the line from here on out.[/color]

Toad, I challenge you to rewatch the game today. Forget about everything else and focus on Frye. Watch him stare down exactly one route. (I was shocked when he actually had one play where he looked off) Watch him wait for eactly one route to develop. Look at how he moves in the pocket almost by accident, and without any real awareness of what's actually happening. Look at the replay of the 4th down play where we have the (IIRC) slot receiver running open by the goalline without a defender anywhere near him .. and Frye throws short of the 1st down marker instead. I realize it's not easy to see this with pressure ... but that's why not everyone can be an NFL QB.

The line isn't perfect ... but they're being made look even worse by the QB. No one respects him, so teams just stack the line, blitz, and attack because they know Frye isn't capable of burning them. They're right. He doesn't have the arm or quick decision making process to hurt an attacking team.

Watch Frye when you rewatch the game. See if you see the same things I see.

I'd like to add that I knew where Frye was going with the ball on damn near every pass just from watching his head. If I can see it, so can opposing defenses.

[color:"white"]YTown, what a challenge! (Like you didn't know I was going to do a "upon further review" of this game anyway <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

We're both bent, so I'm going to just say that I'll wait until I watch the game in replay. What I saw at full speed may not be what I see in replay (though I'm confident that I've been doing this long enough to know what I'm lookin' at).

You have my word that I'll be objective. I would hope you'd believe I'd do that anyway. [/color]

I think most of our problems are stemming from ineffective quarterback play, unless the receivers are all running the wrong routes every play, Frye seems confused out there. Look at all of the other teams in the NFL, they have second options incase the starter stinks it up. Teams don?t even have to worry about our receivers because we can?t get the ball to them. All they have to do is load the box and get after the QB and dare Frye to throw the ball. He will make mistakes.

The o-line sucks to so it makes Frye look worse than he really is and the running game is so pathetic that we are asking a ?rookie? to win every game for us. Droughns has to still be dinged up (shoulder, foot) because he doesn?t look like a starting running back. Sure he can block and catch a little but he isn?t finishing off runs this year like he was last year. He is never going to be a homerun threat (neither will Wright) so teams don?t really care if he happens to break an 8-yard run because they know that is all he is getting.

We need upgrades at QB, OL and RB but it is becoming clearer and clearer that we truly need better coaching on the offense. Get Robiskie and Rip Scherer out of there, if Davidson would like to come back as o-line coach I would not be opposed to that but we need a real coordinator. Try every way shape and for to get Cam Cameron on this coaching staff. Hell, I would hire him with the promise that we will promote him to Head Coach if he comes here. There have been 2 constants since 99 bad o-line and bad offensive coaching. We need to get a great mind in here and tell Romeo that he has NO say on what goes on when it deals with the offense.