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This "slumping opponent" argument I just don't buy.
Its just when ppl try to discredit JH for coming so close to the single game rushing record against KC. Everyone always has to try to minimize it just b/c it was against KC. Well, the Chiefs played against 15 other running backs last year and none of them duplicated JH's performance.
Ppl here in Cleveland will try their damndest to discredit their own players and their performances---makes no sense. 
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I don't buy the argument that we didn't beat nobody down the stretch as a way of discrediting what the Browns accomplished down the stretch. First and foremost weren't the Browns supposed to be one of the worst 5 teams in the league? Pitt and Jax were both fighting for playoff spots while KC and Oak were more on the Browns level. So they weren't all weak teams. All opponents had to play in the same weather conditions, that's football. All this was done with alot of players off the scrap heap.
When the Browns lose why isn't it okay to make all kinds of excuses and say they are better than 5 wins yet when they win they get discredited? They won 5 games which isn't good but at least they were right in a row to hopefully build momentum going into this year. I don't believe in making excuses but I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. It seems the Browns fan base in general thinks that being overly harsh means being realistic or an intelligent fan, which might be a by product of getting burned so many times. I also don't think being overly optimistic is good either.
In my opinion they were a bad team last year that finished strong due to the coaching and the players buying into the coachs. This year I don't know what to think, I'm guessing cautiously optimistic is the best approach. There's always that sleeper team, just not sure they have the talent quite yet to be that team.
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It seems the Browns fan base in general thinks that being overly harsh means being realistic or an intelligent fan, which might be a by product of getting burned so many times.
well, being fair....the past 11 years, being overly harsh would have made you correct more times than not.
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You do have a point there. It just gets tiresome hearing people sound defeated and it's not even July yet.
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I want to approach this question from the angle: Are we a better team? Front Office: Holmgren has brought in a team of experienced talented winners. He has handled every situation correctly from the RFAs to Cribbs and everything in between.Heckert had a decent draft finding players in positions of need without reaching. Some UFAs have been brought in for positions of need without breaking the bank. Conclusion: significant improvement Coaching Staff: Mangini and Co. have had a year to learn from their mistakes and become familiar with the players.No more rookie bus trips,no more whining about penalty laps. Mangini seems more relaxed .Haskell was brought in to help Daboll.One year of experience has got to help. Conclusion: improvement (Django will have a conniption over this)  Special teams: what's to say. Same personnel and very good. Conclusion: wash, same as last year Def.Line: Smith is getting older,but Shaeffering and Rubin are young.Not outstanding, but a competent group nonetheless. Conclusion:wash Linebackers: The discontented RFAs return. Fujita and Gocong replace Kam.Benard looks to be a beast. This corps is shaping up. Conclusion:improvement Defensive backs: This was a horrible weakness last year.Enter Sheldon Brown( that's his name beat writers) and 3 draft picks. Can't help but get better. Conclusion: improvement Tight ends: Watson comes and Moore gets more reps in this system. Hopefully we will be less dependent on Crown Royal this year. Conclusion: slight improvement Backs: Running back by committee. We have more depth now than I can ever remember. Conclusion: improvement Off.Line: Pashos moves St. Clair to the bench. One future stud drafted and 3 vets as back-up.Decent depth. Conclusion: slight improvement ( slight only b/c there is no true back-up center) Wide receivers: One year of learning can't hurt,right? Our biggest paradox right now.Can they "get it". Conclusion: wash. I'll believe it when I see it. Quarterback: Bernie said that the receivers were getiing open,but the QBs did not get them the ball. From God's lips to our ears.  Seneca came 1st as an insurance policy. Jake is too young to be washed-up. We have depth here. Conclusion: improvement I see improvement in most areas and no degeneration. How this translates into wins and losses is anyone's guess. Seven games look winnable. I'll stick with that.
Last edited by Line Judge; 06/23/10 07:59 AM.
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We lost to freakin' Detroit
Since our return we have managed to lose 2 games where we were ahead at the end of regulation. That's sad.
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Realistic.
Intelligent.
Correct.
Browns Fan.
Pick one of the above.
Is it more fun to wallow in doom and gloom just so you can be correct? How much more fun to expect greatness and be proven right?
I do want to thank the remoh's for bringing me down after 07, otherwise I would have been totally unprepared for the crash that followed. They are just so relentless and depressing, makes me wonder why they continue to be fans.
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I do want to thank the remoh's for bringing me down after 07,
remoh's? what is that
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Too subtle, eh?
Reverse the spelling. The apostrophe was a typo. Sorry.
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Is it more fun to wallow in doom and gloom just so you can be correct? How much more fun to expect greatness and be proven right?
wait around for Django, he'll be back around next month 
I would have to say that I try to find the positive side on most things. I'm not just playing percentages here, I was just pointing it out.
#gmstrong
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We lost to freakin' Detroit
Since our return we have managed to lose 2 games where we were ahead at the end of regulation. That's sad.
??? How did we lose if we were ahead at the end of the game? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Too subtle, eh?
Reverse the spelling. The apostrophe was a typo. Sorry.
Ha ha,,, OK,, you got me.. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
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We lost to freakin' Detroit
Since our return we have managed to lose 2 games where we were ahead at the end of regulation. That's sad.
??? How did we lose if we were ahead at the end of the game?
We are Cleveland.
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We lost to freakin' Detroit
Since our return we have managed to lose 2 games where we were ahead at the end of regulation. That's sad.
??? How did we lose if we were ahead at the end of the game?
The Dwayne Rudd Helmet game, and the Detroit phantom pass interference game last season ....... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Backs:
Running back by committee. We have more depth now than I can ever remember.
I hope your right, but most were pretty high on a very young Green, Suggs & Jackson as 3rd. or sub out Jackson and replace the following year with White.
Really we haven't seen much more than flashes from Harrison & Davis (pre season), much like Green N Suggs showed at first. Hardesty looks great, but is still an unknown commodity.
like I said, I truly hope your right but we really still have no proven back.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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I have to disagree with the Harrison/Suggs comparison there.
Suggs was the definition of only showing flashes, while being injury prone.
While I doubted the living hell out of Harrison's durability and his ability to consistently perform, he showed more in those last four games than Suggs did his entire career.
Hardesty is an absolute unknown, but when reports are that all of the coaches are praising him this early on because he's just getting it..... it's a good sign.
Davis & Jennings - Davis is a mega-unknown, and Jennings is doubtful to make the final 53.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I have to disagree with the Harrison/Suggs comparison there.
Suggs was the definition of only showing flashes, while being injury prone.
While I doubted the living hell out of Harrison's durability and his ability to consistently perform, he showed more in those last four games than Suggs did his entire career.
.
let's compare the 2 "flashes" of success they had:
Suggs 2004 last 3 games
105yds 5.00ypc 0 TD
143yds 3.80ypc 0 TD
131yds 5.04ypc 0 TD
Harrison 2009 last 3 games
268yds 8.41ypc 3 TD
148yds 3.80ypc 1 TD
127yds 3.85ypc 1 TD
Suggs didn't find the endzone, despite a more consistent YPC through the games. Harrison had more yards largely due to more carries, but defenses also were able to key in much more onto him due to a non-existant passing game.
So, can Harrison stay healthy should still be a valid question because of our past scares from Suggs (and other RBs around the league), but Harrison was able to take a ton of carries (over 100 in 3 games) and continued to churn out yards, so there should be good reason for optimism.
#gmstrong
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Are we a better team? we FINALLY have a front office Moses after being adrift in the NFL desert. He fired everybody and good riddance: HUGE IMPROVEMENT.
. Same Coach who now has someone looking over his lame personnel decisions( funny how we improved after many "starters" went down with injury.
. Improvement at LBer with additions of Fujita, Gocong, development of Bernard, Roth.
.improvement at Dline with Rubin at Nose, Rogers out to DE to add to the rotation. sleepers like Geathers and Danso may be lightning in a bottle..we will see.
.Huge improvement at CB addings starters in Brown, Haden to Wright and Bmac
more experience for Adams and two rookie safeties to push Elam for the other spot.
Improvement at OL: Pashos putting St./Clair on the pines is already a HUGE upgrade. and Laovauo at Guard/center backup adds better starters. A huge lift would be a guy like Reindeers at OT coming through as a backup.
WR: my prayers for the WORST starting unit in the NFL, the idea to useEvan Moore in the slot has been mentioned. Should Cribbs become a force it sure would be welcome: NOT IMPROVED. or maybe slight improved because of experience.
RB: Harrison joined by Hardesty, Davis, Vickers and ham sandwich( Hillis) and there is more depth here. Improvement.
TE: making the Horrid Royal sit will be Watson and Moore: huge improvement.
QB: the MOST important position and the verdict = UNKNOWN. Is Jake the Mistake dumped by Carolina for his QB freefall since the 08 playoffs or can he turn iot around. I thought Quinn had some solid efforts but was sent packing with the horrid DA(whom Mangini should have been shot for ever starting him). Getting Delhomme reminds me of the commercial "I could have had a v8"( McNabb) and I would be crowing about our chances, but holmgren rashly chased after the psyche torn Delhomme and i cross my fingers.
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LOL you are still blaming Mangini for trading Quinn aren't you.. and as for having McNabb,, that's bunk.. when we signed Delhomme and Wallace, the Eagles were looking for a 1st round pick in exchange for McNabb.. that changed later on when it was clear nobody would put up that kinda trade..., Are you suggesting we should have given up a 1st rounder for McNabb?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think he is suggesting that Holmgren should be a psychic 
Last edited by Line Judge; 06/24/10 07:37 AM.
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Prpl, I wasn't drawing a direct comparrison to Harrison & Suggs. I was simply showing that we have in the fairly recent past had a young semi unknown group of unproven running backs that many were very hign and optimistic about on these boards.
If your going to compare, I would put Suggs injury history out of college with Hardesty, and Harrison's body type and running with Jamal White. but that i not the they type of thing I was talking about really.
"He who buys what he does not need steals from himself."
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I think he is suggesting that Holmgren should be a psychic
Oh,, yeah,, maybe that's what he means?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Backs:
Running back by committee. We have more depth now than I can ever remember.
I hope your right, but most were pretty high on a very young Green, Suggs & Jackson as 3rd. or sub out Jackson and replace the following year with White.
Really we haven't seen much more than flashes from Harrison & Davis (pre season), much like Green N Suggs showed at first. Hardesty looks great, but is still an unknown commodity.
like I said, I truly hope your right but we really still have no proven back.
Roc,
I'm basing this on what they have done so far in their careers. Their YPC is a stat I like to use to judge talent.
Hillis:I can't get any link to work,but he has a 4.9 YPC on 81 attempts.
Harrison: http://www.nfl.com/players/jeromeharrison/profile?id=HAR601702
These are high YPCs 
Harrison has a large enough body of work to make an informed judgement. Hillis,no.
Hardesty looked good at Tennessee, and I know that does not translate to the pro game,but I'm optimistic after seeing the highlight reels,his combine stats and what the coaches are saying.
Jennings: http://www.nfl.com/players/chrisjennings/profile?id=JEN463940
Not an impressive YPC, but not horrible.
Davis did well at Clemson and in pre-season
Vickers: blocking back.Does this well.
IMO, it will be Davis and Jennings will need to fight it out for that 5th spot
I just appears tome that any one of these backs are good enough or better.
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I think this RB core is without a doubt superior to the Suggs/White/Green years. Harrison just had a breakout, four games or not you cannot discount what he accomplished. Hardesty has everyone excited and personally (can't speak for everyone) I still have very high hopes for James Davis.
I was happy with Jennings' play for us last year, especially in the Steelers game where he became the first Browns RB to take it to the house in over a year. He's not great but in a pinch he proved to get the job done.
RB Is without a doubt I'd consider an area of improvement. Getting rid of the way over-the-hill Jamal Lewis was the first step and giving our RB a serious youth-injection helped as well. We will look good running the ball in 2010. Harrison or Hardesty, or maybe even Davis.
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We will look good running the ball in 2010. Harrison or Hardesty, or maybe even Davis.
I would put Hillis in there before Davis. Hillis actually has NFL experience and has shown some actuall game time flashes.
Just sayin, is all........
Last edited by ncdawg; 06/24/10 04:02 PM.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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LOL you are still blaming Mangini for trading Quinn aren't you..
and as for having McNabb,, that's bunk.. when we signed Delhomme and Wallace, the Eagles were looking for a 1st round pick in exchange for McNabb.. that changed later on when it was clear nobody would put up that kinda trade...,
Are you suggesting we should have given up a 1st rounder for McNabb?
Now now Daman before you emotionally vent take a breathe and listen. No One in the solar system thought the Eagles could get a #1 for an aging McNabb so i was never suggesting that insanity and we agree and the entire NFL agree that the Eagles were either Insane or bluffing....I say #2 hoping someone would bite. We bit on a washed up QB on a downhill slolum since 2008 playoffs instead of say waiting. Why, we had dumped DA( who should have never seen the field in 09) and Quinn and were in a PR black hole and over reached: it was the only offseason move I disagreed with Holmgren. We payed dearly for a guy who will make (adding his Carolina and Cleveland salaries, more than Peyton Manning while playing somewhat below that level).
Imagine the excitement had we paused and signed McNabb to this young squad. Imagine the excitement his leadership and skillset brings. Imagine how that geeks the entire city. Now, back to reality, we have the fading Jake and never really gave Quinn a real chance, but he is gone and Jake , I fear, was a Big Mistake the fans will want to toss in the Lake.
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Dude,, you can say that's not what you meant, but it sure sounded like it to me..
Go back and reread your comment, you made it clear that you would have preferred McNabb at THAT POINT IN TIME over Delhomme..
Well NO KIDDING.. most all of us would have.. But at that POINT in time, the Eagles,, reasonably or not, wanted a 1st for him.. (I think more than a first to be honest)..
Now, had they waited, there was NO GUARANTEE we'd have been able to get him
Had that happened, you are clearly the type that would have ripped them for not going after someone else... (no doubt you would have a comment or two about Quinn thrown in for good measure,, in case you hadn't noticed, you put something about Quinn and how dumb Mangini is in virtually every post you make)
They did what they did becase they felt it was the best move at that time.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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let's not forget that if anyone knew the Eagles were completely bluffing, you think it should be Heckert (since he was in their war-room up until about 2 months prior and all).
so, it's quite possible that Reid really thought he could get that and Heckert knew Reid really thought that. causing him to move on. or it could have been not wanting to wait, lose out on McNabb anyway, and get stuck trading for Jason Campbell (as the Raiders were forced to do when they whiffed).
#gmstrong
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hey Joe, Let's review. You knew that the Iggles would ship McNabb for less than a 1st and go with Kolb. You know McNabb still has pro-bowl caliber talent for several more years. You know for certain that Delhomme is washed-up. Joe, what mega-millions numbers should I play? 
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Line, The odds the eagles were going to get a #1 for a 35yo QB were slim and none. It turned out to be NONE. I did not KNOW that yet that was my and the entire NFL that came to that conclusion, it was no huge acumen on my part but it amazed you so i am glad.
McNabb, while having pro Bowl talent and leadership has been oft injured the last 4 seasons and last year being his healthiest of that span yet with his age it was fairly certain a #1 was not in the cards.
Again Line you love to put your words in my mouth and chew them and spit and say something whitty, I guess that is the "judge" part of Linejudge?
Now I do not KNOW Jake is going to be washed up, yet his steep decline and implosion are more than troubling. facing some of the NFLs elite Defenses in the AFC North will not help this aging less than mobile QB. I pray he does not fail Line, yet my hunch is it is at least a longshot as the eagles getting that #1 pick. I hope I am only one for 2 but thanks for the whitty comments.
Last edited by akronjoe; 06/24/10 05:46 PM.
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Good thoughts Joe....except for the Jake Mistake Lake rhyme game..... That's worse than your ham sandwich.
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Line, The odds the eagles were going to get a #1 for a 35yo QB were slim and none.
Odds are you won't go another day without a Quinn post....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I disagree. That's waaay better than "ham sandwich".
I'd rather have him mix it up every once in a while than hammer on one joke for weeks on end.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Now now Daman before you emotionally vent take a breathe and listen. No One in the solar system thought the Eagles could get a #1 for an aging McNabb so i was never suggesting that insanity and we agree and the entire NFL agree that the Eagles were either Insane or bluffing....I say #2 hoping someone would bite. We bit on a washed up QB on a downhill slolum since 2008 playoffs instead of say waiting. Why, we had dumped DA( who should have never seen the field in 09) and Quinn and were in a PR black hole and over reached: it was the only offseason move I disagreed with Holmgren. We payed dearly for a guy who will make (adding his Carolina and Cleveland salaries, more than Peyton Manning while playing somewhat below that level).
Imagine the excitement had we paused and signed McNabb to this young squad. Imagine the excitement his leadership and skillset brings. Imagine how that geeks the entire city. Now, back to reality, we have the fading Jake and never really gave Quinn a real chance, but he is gone and Jake , I fear, was a Big Mistake the fans will want to toss in the Lake.
Joe,
I'm not putting words in your mouth.You used the term "washed-up" .See above.
And the reason the Browns "bit " on Delhomme is b/c he was the best available at the time. McNabb and Campbell were not then available IIRC. The Iggles were saying they were keeping McNabb and the Redskins keeping Campbell
Show us a post where you said that we should wait and get McNabb at a bargain price at the time of the Delhomme signing and I'll call you Karnak the Magnificent. BTW, even if McNabb was available at the time for a bargain price there would have competition to land him.No sure thing.Why do you continue to portray assumptions as facts?
You certanly have excellent 20/20 hindsight.
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also, let's not forget one key thing.
we do not know that McNabb is any better than Delhomme.
yes, I do like McNabb's chances better and believe he is a better QB both at his peak and now.
however, we have never seen him outside of Reid's system and Eagles QBs who have shown success in the system have struggled mightily outside of it other than Jeff Garcia continuing his play in TB (but he had success before Philly too).
so, it's possible that McNabb is just a product of Reid's system and the weapons that Heckert put around him. we'll certainly find out soon enough, which is what makes all of this fun.
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Haha. No I am pretty excited to see what Hillis can bring to our offense in 2010. James Davis is just someone I'm rooting for. I hope might show us something, kind of like Johnathan Haggerty. A player who might not even make the team but could give our team depth we didn't exactly have last season.
Hillis is much more likely to play a impact role in our offense. I hope he is the steal of the Quinn trade.
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I know, the rain in Spain falls Mainly on the Plain. Sometimes i crack myself up. You should have seen when I went to Amsterdam and visited the "coffee shops", add some hashish to my humor and I REALLY think I am funny.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,988
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,988 |
Quote:
well, being fair....the past 11 years, being overly harsh would have made you correct more times than not.
Sad but true
Joe Thomas #73
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814 |
Ahh Karnak here again, I laughed when i thought the Iggles thought they could get a #1 for mcnabb, yet 32 other Gms laughed harder than this wee little fan and the Iggles made the monumental boo Boo of trading him within the division.
As for the washed up Delhomme, I am just going with the same odds yet I have in my memory a QB who had an injury plagued career and put up some fine seasons in Cleveland. Bill Nelson, a physical wreck with horrid knees took the browns to back to back Championship games in 1968,69 and playoff in 1971. Now if Jake can give a Nelson like performance I will retract any negatives. I mean it is a clean slate. I am a Browns fan. I am rooting for the guy. I do not want him to be washed up and hope he is not. Ryan a former championship QB just "lost it" and after the Browns replaced him with nelson he was traded the next year.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,502
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,502 |
See, that's the problem.
He wasn't brought here to be "Nelson-esque" or whatever. He's getting paid to hand that ball off to one of the many (hopefully) capable runningbacks.
If we're behind late in a game, sure, he'll have to air it out. He's a stand-in quarterback, nothing more. With our backfield vs. our receiver corps, how can we not take this approach?
Wait until next year or the year after (depending on this coming draft) for your stud quarterback.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are The Browns A .500 Team?
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