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mac I will get back on here and respond to your post in a little bit but I would like to say, and I'm not being sarcastic.. that is THE best post of yours I think I've ever read. It's not just because I agree with most of it that i think its a good post.. it's insightful, it includes your own words in addition to the video, it's not filled with name calling, it finally acknowledges some blame for Clinton and leaves open the door for blame for Obama....
Thanks and I look forward to responding soon.
yebat' Putin
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I would think that this would be appealing to an employer who has a couple of openings, but is unsure of the long term effect of the Heathcare Law, as well as the economy once it takes effect.
If the employer cannot afford to add employees once the mess takes effect .... he can just not do so and figure out how to run his business without that extra employee or 2, or 3 ......
If he can .... he can add from outside the company, continue using the temp service, or hire the temp workers into permanent positions.
I think that I'd be looking very strongly at temp fill ins if I had openings in a professional setting right now.
Very interesting addition to the conversation. Thank you for adding your comments ... they were extremely informative.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I would think that this would be appealing to an employer who has a couple of openings, but is unsure of the long term effect of the Heathcare Law, as well as the economy once it takes effect.
It always was appealing to employers,, I suspect it will continue to be even with all the healthcare law changes. Perhaps more so.. dunno 
My offerings allow them to do a couple of things,, Try before you buy meaning they can see how an employee works before they make a long term commitment to him and it allows them flexibility to get the job done, shift the burden to me because it's still cheaper than doing it themselves and they don't have any long term effects if they have to lay off.
Has nothing to do with healthcare.. it's the way it's been for 30+ years that I've been in the business.
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If the employer cannot afford to add employees once the mess takes effect .... he can just not do so and figure out how to run his business without that extra employee or 2, or 3 ......
For smaller businesses, it may have that effect..I'll tell you if I see that. I'm not jumping the gun like everyone else is. I can and will wait and see and I'll adapt.
I say it MAY have that effect because the way things stand today, a small business owner can't afford to offer healthcare, if the law does what we're told it will do, Healthcare will be less costly, more inclusive. If that's the case, it may actually work out better.
But I'm not holding my breath on that. I'll wait and see before I comment further.
But large employers,, it won't even begin to effect them. GE doesn't care about the Healthcare Law.. they provide benefits to even thier parttime employees. Thier costs won't rise..
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If he can .... he can add from outside the company, continue using the temp service, or hire the temp workers into permanent positions.
Again, it's always been that way.. nothing new there.
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I think that I'd be looking very strongly at temp fill ins if I had openings in a professional setting right now.
Well, I'm a little bias of course being in the business, but yes, you should have probably been doing that all along whenever it's possible.
Some potential employees/candidates for jobs don't want contract work unless there is nothing else to choose from. So I have to temper my response a little because they may not want to go to a Temp to Perm relationship.
another thing I do is background checks.. those can be rather expensive and I also do drug screens as part of my entire package. Those are costs normally paid by the employer/Client., I pay for it and I get it done.
I also provide Vacation and Holiday Pay.. Something that many Temp Services don't even think about.
And I PAY every week via direct deposit. And I match all the necessary taxes, deduct tax from employees paychecks, provide a W-2 at the end of the year, Pay Workers comp etc etc..
With all of that, I can still do things cheaper than clients can.. The reason,, simple,,, But dude, I ain't telling....LOL It's a secret and if I told you I"d have to shoot you 
Am I a little more expensive then the fly by night firms,,, A little, not much
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Very interesting addition to the conversation. Thank you for adding your comments ... they were extremely informative.
Once every year I do something right,, this is it.., don't get used to it
Speaking of Temp Services,,did you guy hear about this one..
http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2007/09/_a_giant_in_the.html
Supposedly, he had 8000 workers in the Cleveland area., I know for a fact they wasn't even close to true, . we are talking at best 1000 employees...And that's a stretch... This place is 40% higher than me and doesn't offer...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Ross Perot were 100% right about NAFTA and American trade agreements.
.......
Those who care to respond...do not respond by laying blame...there is enough blame to go around...GOP and DEM...but Ross Perot was a man ahead of his time...and someone honest enough to speak the truth.
And Ross Perot was right about our deficits as well.. Look where we are now with the deficit... It's astounding and is only getting worse. Clinton was the only one to get close to reign it in, but welll that still wasn't counting the deficit on the medicare side of things.. Bush was a big spender while he was in office and left a lot of spending on the table for Obama, but then Obama just increased it as well.. Perhaps we should dig Ross Perot up..
The major problem is that we are not dealing with our priorities.. We had a huge fight about healthcare while millions of people were having trouble with jobs.. We keep on fighting on about unemployment benefits while they are still looking for jobs... We need to fix the problem, not the benefits of not having the problem.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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The major problem is that we are not dealing with our priorities.. We had a huge fight about healthcare while millions of people were having trouble with jobs.. We keep on fighting on about unemployment benefits while they are still looking for jobs... We need to fix the problem, not the benefits of not having the problem.
In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, "Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem."
yebat' Putin
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In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, "Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem."
Just try living without it.... that would be interesting... and more than a little scary...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, "Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem."
Just try living without it.... that would be interesting... and more than a little scary...
Can I try living without half of our government?
That wouldn't be scary ..... it would be sublime. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
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In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, "Government is not the solution to our problem, Government is the problem."
Just try living without it.... that would be interesting... and more than a little scary...
Can I try living without half of our government?
That wouldn't be scary ..... it would be sublime.
which half would keep?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The most essential services that benefit the country as a whole.
Defense, Trade, Commerce ..... those types of areas.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Actually, no it isn't scary at all.
However, you are also going all extreme and missing the point entirely.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Actually, no it isn't scary at all.
However, you are also going all extreme and missing the point entirely.
and cutting half the government isn't extreme? talk to Ytown about that...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Half might be a bit extreme - but not too much. Heck, for the last 3 days they've been tarring and chipping S.R. 66 here next to me. 2 flaggers - okay. 1 guy driving the truck that has the tar and stone chips, okay. 2 guys driving pickups to move the signs?
And then 2 guys standing behind the guy doing the work, just walking along? Plus, I'm sure there were 2 or 3 guys sitting in an office getting updates.
Hell yes cutting gov't. is a good thing. Don't cut the ones doing work (and I'm not talking just road construction stuff), cut the middle manager, and the undersecretary of overseeing, and the guy that person reports to, and then get rid of the 3 managers that over see the undersecretary overseer.
The job still gets done, and it gets done if half the time.
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually, no it isn't scary at all.
However, you are also going all extreme and missing the point entirely.
and cutting half the government isn't extreme? talk to Ytown about that...LOL
psssst! In case you missed it, nobody was going all extreme on anything until you came out with "Just try living without it"
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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for the last 3 days they've been tarring and chipping S.R. 66 here next to me. 2 flaggers - okay. 1 guy driving the truck that has the tar and stone chips, okay. 2 guys driving pickups to move the signs?
And then 2 guys standing behind the guy doing the work, just walking along? Plus, I'm sure there were 2 or 3 guys sitting in an office getting updates.
None of those guys work for the government, with the possible exception of 1 of the guys sitting in an office getting updates, he works for ODOT.
yebat' Putin
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Right. And ODOT is a state gov't. agency, is it not?
And states are usually run more effectively than the fed. gov't. not?
But, since you bring it up, there was a street project in town - the signs said basically "brought to you by TARP", or, was it "american reinvestment".....something or other. Took them forever, AND, where they quit there is now a huge bump going from the new asphalt to the old.
There's also a similar project going on on a county road - henry co. W, Fulton road A - has been going on for about 2 months. Replacing a bridge. Over a ditch. That no trucks ever go over because they aren't allowed on that road. There is more equipment sitting there than I can count. They've had cranes......bulldozers, land movers, backhoes....you name it.
2 months and they aren't close to being done. And again - it's not like they have to deal with traffic - the road is closed from both directions. It's a freaking county road. But boy, the ditch looks awesome from what I can see. For the 400 yds or so they are redoing. Of course, the ditch on each side of what they are doing is the same.
I bet it will be one hell of a nice bridge though.....even though the road leading up to it and away from it will be the same, narrow, 1 1/2 lane road.
Did I tell you they aren't done yet? They don't work there much more than 2 days a week.
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Right. And ODOT is a state gov't. agency, is it not?
Go re read DC's comment, he's saying that none of them work for the Goverment except that guy at the desk and that he probably is from ODOT..
You took it wrong...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But you are talking about paying someone HALF of what they were making. And probably without benefits I bet.
These jobs are fulltime with benefits including a 401K. We are lucky enough to be in a business that is not just thriving it is growing. We are servicing the marcellus shale boom across PA. Yes, you have to pay part of the health insurance, but it is a quality program and we only pay a small amount into it.
The pay is not $20+ an hour, but is decent, starting at about 13.50 with at least 10 hours overtime per week. That's starting pay. Plus we receive a full two week pay for a Xmas bonus. Not quite a steelworkers salary, but definately more than Ohio unemployment pays.
Many of these guys just don't want to work, they were babied in the steel mills and think that is the way it is everywhere. I can't feel sorry for them, since many have multiple vehicles and Harleys, not to mention nice fishing boats. Some are close friends of mine, and we argue about this all the time. They feel the government killed their jobs and they are going to get as much as they can for free now.
Times are tough, but some people still don't get it. $30 dollars an hour to sleep a couple hours a day is a thing of the past. Wheeling Pitt, and Weirton Steel were full of these type guys. They were scheduled for 8 hours, they punch in and change cloths for a half hour, work two go on break. But had to leave for break 10 minutes early to make it to the break room for a 15 minute break. Same thing for lunch break. Then being scheduled until 3, they would leave for the showers at 1:45 and shower and wait almost a half hour to punch out, standing in the locker room. These guys bragged about this for years.
I hate to rant about it, but these are the same guys that haven't worked for two years, but are collecting more fishing and golfing then most do working. Maybe this is something that just happens here, but it has been going on for years and it is no secret. Now they want me to feel bad because they are shutting down the mills.
If the extended benefits were not coming from my tax money, I wouldn't care, but Ohio"s unemployment fund is empty, and that's the only place it could be coming from.
#gmstrong
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Road construction is a different animal than building construction, the philosophy behind it is just different.. the design philosophy is different the bidding is different, the scheduling and building is different...
There are inherent inefficiencies built into all construction but the ones in road construction are much more visible.. Walk through any construction site of any size at any time and you will find some people standing around doing nothing... doesn't mean they are lazy (usually)... but on a road job its more visible because they are standing by the side of the road..
As for your bridge example and the slow progress.. not sure why they would be going so slow unless they are encountering things they hadn't expect like excess rock or poor soil or some other thing...
I do understand the massive amount of equipment.. contractors have few projects going on so in an effort to keep people busy and keep from laying them off they are sending more equipment (and usually more manpower) to jobs than necessary...
yebat' Putin
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for the last 3 days they've been tarring and chipping S.R. 66 here next to me. 2 flaggers - okay. 1 guy driving the truck that has the tar and stone chips, okay. 2 guys driving pickups to move the signs?
And then 2 guys standing behind the guy doing the work, just walking along? Plus, I'm sure there were 2 or 3 guys sitting in an office getting updates.
None of those guys work for the government, with the possible exception of 1 of the guys sitting in an office getting updates, he works for ODOT.
No,not completely true, he works for the company that ODOT gave the contract to,to do that job.
People dont usually know the whole story on what is going into a job anyways. Maybe for the thirty seconds someone was going by they saw the two guys not doing something but that doesnt tell the whole story.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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and if I had read all the posts before commenting I would see that you basically said what I was trying to say in the post above mine  KINGB
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I'm not sure what you're saying, but I know I can see them from my house. And those guys aren't doing anything. And yes, I drove by them today - on the way up town, on the way back 15 minutes later. Then again 1 hour later, and about 20 minutes after that.
Trust me, there's too many doing nothing.
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I'm not sure what you're saying, but I know I can see them from my house. And those guys aren't doing anything. And yes, I drove by them today - on the way up town, on the way back 15 minutes later. Then again 1 hour later, and about 20 minutes after that.
Trust me, there's too many doing nothing.
Well maybe in this case they truely are just dicking off.
I am just saying in general many times you will hear people say " oh I drove by the job site and there were 2 guys standing with shovels,they must not do anything all day"
I am also just saying that maybe those guys DO have some role, I have no idea either,but who knows? Maybe they are supervisors,or something. I dont know,and either does anyone else but people who have knowledge of how that job works.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Then there is a market for you arch.. those road jobs are given to the low bidder... if this contractor has guys standing around doing nothing then it stands to reason that he is either losing money or somebody could do that job cheaper and could have won that contract... If you can staff the job with guys that don't stand around, you should get every job.
yebat' Putin
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the only reason I mentioned half is because you said they were making 20 an hour and that they turned down 400 a week,, that's half..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Then there is a market for you arch.. those road jobs are given to the low bidder... if this contractor has guys standing around doing nothing then it stands to reason that he is either losing money or somebody could do that job cheaper and could have won that contract... If you can staff the job with guys that don't stand around, you should get every job.
I guess I'm not following along correctly. Every truck there had ODOT on it.
How are they independent contractors? Am I missing something?
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Quote:
Quote:
Then there is a market for you arch.. those road jobs are given to the low bidder... if this contractor has guys standing around doing nothing then it stands to reason that he is either losing money or somebody could do that job cheaper and could have won that contract... If you can staff the job with guys that don't stand around, you should get every job.
I guess I'm not following along correctly. Every truck there had ODOT on it.
How are they independent contractors? Am I missing something?
Ok then it is a smaller job so it is ODOT guys doing the work, bigger jobs are contracted out to..well.. contractors.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Ross Perot were 100% right about NAFTA and American trade agreements.
.......
Those who care to respond...do not respond by laying blame...there is enough blame to go around...GOP and DEM...but Ross Perot was a man ahead of his time...and someone honest enough to speak the truth.
And Ross Perot was right about our deficits as well.. Look where we are now with the deficit... It's astounding and is only getting worse. Clinton was the only one to get close to reign it in, but welll that still wasn't counting the deficit on the medicare side of things.. Bush was a big spender while he was in office and left a lot of spending on the table for Obama, but then Obama just increased it as well.. Perhaps we should dig Ross Perot up..
The major problem is that we are not dealing with our priorities.. We had a huge fight about healthcare while millions of people were having trouble with jobs.. We keep on fighting on about unemployment benefits while they are still looking for jobs... We need to fix the problem, not the benefits of not having the problem.
Yesterday was mowing day, 3 acres..of all days, hot as hell...cut into my puter time, thus a lag in my responses..
Pretty good discussion...
What do we do about the loss of jobs in the USA?
I believe most agree that the loss of manufacturing jobs has hurt the middle class of America.
It is not just the loss of jobs, but the pressure on America's remaining workers to cut their wages and benefits to save their jobs. Management has successfully used the threat to keep American workers wages and purchasing power, stagnant at best and in some cases, falling wages.
It is time to admit, middle class workers in the USA cannot compete with the wages and benefits being paid to workers in China, India, Mexico, etc.
What we must focus on is how do we tip the scales back toward adding more middle class type jobs in America...how do we replace the manufacturing jobs that have been lost over the past decades, going back to Clinton, Bush Sr and Reagan.
I'm not a tax expert but IMO, the way our government is using the tax code, must be examined.
What tax advantages does our government give to business and corporations, that allows them to make the move to cheap labor markets?
Can the tax code be changed to tip the scales back toward keeping jobs in the USA?
When it comes to loss of manufacturing jobs...
...If we want a middle class that continues to shrink..
...If we want a middle class that makes less and less for the same work..
Then we must accept the consequences of a shrinking middle class with less and less purchasing power which leads to pain for small business as their profits begin to shrink, forcing many small businesses to close their doors.
...a shrinking middle class is not good for small businesses or large businesses.
If you envision an America where your kids do better than you did...something has to change...
Your idea's..
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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On this board and other places, we spend a lot of time and energy looking at the effects of tax changes, healthcare reform etc on both the very rich and the very poor. yet, the one group that keeps america humming along is mostly ignored. The working middle class. Quote:
I believe most agree that the loss of manufacturing jobs has hurt the middle class of America.
True but it hurts the entire country. As the Middle Class goes, so goes the nation.. they get hurt, the country goes into a slump like we see now.
I'm proud to say I'm about as middle class as can be. I make a decent living even in these down times, I pay my bills, I consume goods and services. I pay my taxes.
If me and the rest like me are killed in this process, the country will fail.
However, I firmly believe the opposite is true. If we build up the middle class, we will improve our lot in life on a national level.
But it helps the Poor and Wealthy alike.
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I'm not a tax expert but IMO, the way our government is using the tax code, must be examined.
What tax advantages does our government give to business and corporations, that allows them to make the move to cheap labor markets?
I don't think you need to be an expert on tax law to know that there were incentives under certain circumstances for moving jobs off shore. (please do not ask me to explain, I just can't, it's way over my head)
One of the biggest failures of the Obama adminstration so far in my mind is that he has thus far not stemmed the tide of jobs going out off shore.
He made a big deal out of stopping the incentives for moving work off shore and thus far, he's not even moved in that direction that I can tell.
I'll admit that he's kinda had his hands full, but he's got a ton of underlings,, why not delegate the leg work and come up with a plan?
It doesn't have to be something that removes the incentives as much as it gives NEW incentives to keep work here. That way at least companies have a choice.. Armed with that, you appeal to their patriotism and maybe they keep things here. Dunno if it would work, but it's not like a gun to the head.
As a business owner I really like choices.. Gimme the choice between off shoring and keeping work at home and I'm gonna keep work at home 9 out of 10 times. Just find a way to make it an even playing field. I bet you most companies would say that same thing.
Some will still off shore work for reasons of marketing.. can't really help that much I guess.
I feel for the poor,, I'm happy for the wealthy.. But until we get the middle class back to spending (within thier means) then this country is doomed..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Actually, no it isn't scary at all.
However, you are also going all extreme and missing the point entirely.
and cutting half the government isn't extreme? talk to Ytown about that...LOL
psssst! In case you missed it, nobody was going all extreme on anything until you came out with "Just try living without it"
Psssst! this is what Ytown said that made me think of Extremes
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Can I try living without half of our government?
That wouldn't be scary ..... it would be sublime.
and you said
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Actually, no it isn't scary at all.
However, you are also going all extreme and missing the point entirely.
To which I responded:
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and cutting half the government isn't extreme? talk to Ytown about that...LOL
I hope it clears up that i didn't start the 1/2 comment which lead to the Extreme mind set....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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mac, serious questions here, and I really hope you'll answer.
How do companies balance the need to compete globally, as an essential part of their own ability to survive, with the need for the US to have jobs?
How do US companies compete in China, or Europe, or other parts of the world if they were to rely 100% on factories located in the US, paying wages that are the standard in the US, while competing in these foreign markets that do not? How do US companies compete in such a case when they have to factor in shipping a completed product to its final market?
Since the US market is not smaller than the China market, and srowing smaller everyday when compared to the worldwide market, how does a company justify having factories in the US when their largest markets may be, say, China and India? (just as an example)
How do we balance jobs vs. technology when comparing net costs in competing in a global market? Using the auto industry as an example .... I remember back in the 80s when GM was using far more manual labor as compared to today. Today they use far more automation. It lowers payroll wages and taxes, lowers potential accident costs,and improves quality. How should companies walk this balance beam?
Right now we seem to have a political will to financially punish companies who "move" US jobs overseas. (even though, in some cases, it would be a choice between moving those jobs and saving some, or keeping them all here until the company folds) How many jobs are "moved", and how many are simply responding to 2 different markets, closing some factories that cannot produce as needed for a far away end user market, and opening up a new factory that can? If a company cannot compete with having all of its factories in the US, does it make sense to try and force the company to keep all of their factories here and risk them going out of business, or trying to work with the to keep some of them here, while accepting that some jobs have to follow the end market? How do we balance this equation?
Manufacturing will always move in the direction of most demand. The US market is not the market of most demand. We have tons of "stuff". We buy a lot of stuff, but no longer more than anyone else in the world.
The US sold about 10 million new vehicles in 2009.
China sold about 13 million new vehicles in 2009.
Europe sold about 13 million new vehicles in 2009.
Mexico buys more than a million cars per year. Brazil? More than 3 million cars per year.
Other manufactured goods probably follow the same trend(s).
How does a US manufacturer compete, and stay in business, if they cannot compete in these other markets?
IMHO, it's a difficult question, and one that cannot be answered by simply saying "we shouldn't let anyone move US jobs to ......" How would you handle these challenges?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Daman, let me ask you something.
What would happen if we closed the govenrment for 1 day per week? Everything. Say .... Wednesday, all government offices are closed?
Do you think that people would die? Would businesses close? Would children starve?
We already close government offices for holidays and weekends. No one cares. No one notices.
So, what if we closed government offices on Wednesdays? That would save almost 20% of associated expenses right there. M,T open ..... W closed ..... TH, F open ......
Think how much electricity we would save. Think of the associated costs, like cleaning we would save.
That's just one example of where we could immediately slash money from the budget. In fairness, it probably wouldn;t be 20%, because wages would not adjust by 20% .... but there would be a savings.
Cut defense spending. Require a better return on investment. Bring home 25% of those stationed around the world on "peacetime" bases. Eliminate expense accounts for public officials. Cut social spending by 20%. Freeze Social Security increases for 6 months. Require each and every governmet office to fully eliminate one layer of beauracracy.
You want to laugh at my contention that we cut government spending by half ...... but there are so many things that can be done to control and cut government spending immediately. Unfortunately, we lack the political will to do them. Cut spending, cut the deficit, lower taxes, and watch more money enter the economy, and the economy start to take off again .... only this time on a solid footing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I also wanted to add .... for those who will, no doubt, accuse me of costing us huge numbers of jobs with cost cuts .......
The US Government, employs less than 2 million people. This is about 0.75% of the polulation. (that's three quarters of one percent) They spend about 1/5 of our GDP each year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How do US companies compete in China, or Europe, or other parts of the world if they were to rely 100% on factories located in the US, paying wages that are the standard in the US, while competing in these foreign markets that do not? How do US companies compete in such a case when they have to factor in shipping a completed product to its final market?
I don't know if Mac will answer, But I have to say, those are all fair questions..
But let me ask you one if I may,, America is the largest consumer nation (per capita) in the world, I think you would agree right?
So what happens when the American consumers buying power is decimated to the point that all we can barely afford to do is shop at WalMart?
What happens to Nordstrom, Dillards, FAO Schwartz, Chrysler, GM, Ford, AIG, Realtors, real estate, banking, Carpet cleaners, Mechanics, Rental Property? What happens to Broadway, the movie industry.. what happens to all of them and millions of other large and small businesses when the american consumer can't afford to buy thier goods and services because the Middle class has been reduced to the poverty level.
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How do we balance jobs vs. technology when comparing net costs in competing in a global market? Using the auto industry as an example .... I remember back in the 80s when GM was using far more manual labor as compared to today. Today they use far more automation. It lowers payroll wages and taxes, lowers potential accident costs,and improves quality. How should companies walk this balance beam?
It's been like that forever.. we've always evolved and adapted in the past.
When the Auto factories began to Automate more and more, the workers found other factory jobs in other industries.. Pay and Benes may not have been as good but they managed because the divide wasn't nearly as wide.
The problem is, even those "other" factories are going away., Graco (sp) is moving out of Macedonia (150 jobs gone).. Thier products will be made off shore. I know of another company that moved thier manufacturing to Mexico.. 600 jobs went with them. (Yeah, they are in NE Ohio also)
These are the kinda places that would have absorbed some or even most of the displaced Auto Workers in the past.. Now, not only do we have displaced autoworkers, but we have 750 more displaced workers from Graco and the other company I won't mention the name of. (I will if you pm me, but not on an open forum)
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Right now we seem to have a political will to financially punish companies who "move" US jobs overseas. (even though, in some cases, it would be a choice between moving those jobs and saving some, or keeping them all here until the company folds)
That doesn't have to be the ONLY choice. The choice could be between taking advantage of incentives to move your production off shore, or take an incentive to keep it here.
I mean, if we are going to incentify moving production, why isn't it reasonable to incentify keeping it here?
It really doesn't have to be one or the other.. there should be alternatives.
Talk to any American company CEO and I bet you they will all say they'd rather keep production right here in the good ole USA. But competition doesn't allow it and besides, they can get incentives if they move. Plus they open up new markets.
It's almost impossible for them to fight that off. So, let's find a way to make it smarter to stay..
There are plenty of smarter people than me that should be looking into it.
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Manufacturing will always move in the direction of most demand. The US market is not the market of most demand. We have tons of "stuff". We buy a lot of stuff, but no longer more than anyone else in the world.
Why do you suppose that is? One reason is sheer population. the other is that we have assaulted and continue to assault the Middle Class.. traditionally the biggest spending group in the Country.
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China sold about 13 million new vehicles in 2009.
How many folks do you suppose live in China? Lots of new jobs in China making things we used to make here didn't hurt thier buying power either.
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Europe sold about 13 million new vehicles in 2009.
How many folks do you suppose live in Europe? Might be easier if you add up the population of all the nations that make up what they define as Europe.
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Mexico buys more than a million cars per year. Brazil? More than 3 million cars per year.
Well, that's 4 million cars in Mexico and Brazil,, I have no idea what the population is in those two countries,,, we sell 10 million in the US? Not sure why you would even put that here but ok.
Point is, how many cars are sold per capita? per household? Throwing out those comparisons without adaquate detail doesn't actually prove much.
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IMHO, it's a difficult question, and one that cannot be answered by simply saying "we shouldn't let anyone move US jobs to ......" How would you handle these challenges?
It's a damn difficult question, one that I'm afraid I don't have all the answers too. Wish I did.
But a good start isn't to force companies to stay,, but like I said, if it's ok to incentify them to off shore production, then why the hell isn't it ok to incentify them to stay?
Speaking of which, isn't the pure profit motive and competitive motive enough to cause them to move production off shore. Why is the Government giving them one red cent to incentify moving jobs out of country?
Folks are always clamoring for more tax breaks,, Well, how about a tax break for job creation. something with more teeth to it than anything that is out there today?
Just a thought., Like I said, I don't have the answers, but I'm not willing to sit here and accept the status quo and throw my hands up in dispair and say woe is me either.
We've always been a people that relished a challenge.. well, here's one for the ages. Figure this out and you should be the Nobel Prize...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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That's just one example of where we could immediately slash money from the budget. In fairness, it probably wouldn;t be 20%, because wages would not adjust by 20% .... but there would be a savings.
Like you said, most goverment workers I think are salary, so it's not going to be a huge savings.
By cutting hours, you don't automatically cut the workload.. What do you think would be a good way to handle the work that doesn't get completed in a timely manner?
I get where you are going with this,, it just doesn't add up..
Last edited by Damanshot; 07/24/10 03:45 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And you started the whole thing by taking a simple quote and taking it to an extreme with your "trying living without it" statement.... to which YTown responded tongue-in-cheek, etc.., etc.., etc.. Quote:
I hope it clears up that i didn't start the 1/2 comment which lead to the Extreme mind set....
No, it clears up that you conveniently forgot to mention the part where you did trigger the whole thing.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And you started the whole thing by taking a simple quote and taking it to an extreme with your "trying living without it" statement.... to which YTown responded tongue-in-cheek, etc.., etc.., etc..
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I hope it clears up that i didn't start the 1/2 comment which lead to the Extreme mind set....
No, it clears up that you conveniently forgot to mention the part where you did trigger the whole thing.
OK, You got me, I'm an extremist,, I shouild be strung up by my fingernails,, or worse yet, I should be forced to listen to Rush Limbaugh and join the Tea Party 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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, I shouild be strung up by my fingernails
Ok.
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should be forced to listen to Rush Limbaugh and join the Tea Party
No human should have to suffer either of those two things.... or whatever equivalent the left has to offer.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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But let me ask you one if I may,, America is the largest consumer nation (per capita) in the world, I think you would agree right?
Maybe, but I cannot find figures one way or the other. Actually, I doubt we are, on a per capita basis. I bet somewhere like Switzerland has higher per capita spending. There are probably some European countries that beat us on a per capita basis as well.
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So what happens when the American consumers buying power is decimated to the point that all we can barely afford to do is shop at WalMart?
That is a tremendously difficult question to answer. The only harder question is how do you shore up the middle class without forcing companies that must compete globally to survive out of business?
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The problem is, even those "other" factories are going away., Graco (sp) is moving out of Macedonia (150 jobs gone).. Thier products will be made off shore. I know of another company that moved thier manufacturing to Mexico.. 600 jobs went with them. (Yeah, they are in NE Ohio also)
Newell Rubbermaid (Graco plant) is a worldwide company. Their largest market is still in the US. It's next largest market is Europe/Middle East/Africa. (which it lumps together)
Overall, they have sold or closed 96 facilities since 2005. They have cut 8-10% of its salaried workforce. Their sales are down 14% vs 2008. Source for all
They also opened a new plant in Tennessee in December 2009. Did that lead to closure of an older plant? Was it because certain products were made their that needed to be made elsewhere because of demand? I don't know. Do you?
How do we balance factories and jobs vs the need to stay in business?
As far as incentives for moving jobs overseas ..... I'm sure that it's not as straighforward as that. It rarely is. I do agree that there are certain tax provisions that should be abolished or amended. I'm just not sure that the bozos in Washington are at all qualitfied to do the job.
Now President Obama does want to raise taxes on US companies' foreign profits. Companies like Microsoft are talking about moving US workers offshore to actually cut their foreign profits to ensure that the higher corporate tax rate doesn't impact them as badly. Other companies coulf move their main offices to a foreign country to put those costs on the "foreign P&L".
Again ... there are no easy answers here.
What I would like to see is some form of tax incentive for investment in the US as opposed to penalties. Companies always find ways around penalties. In the end, will penalties create US jobs? Will taking money out of the company's coffers help anyone's long term jobs outlook?
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Well, that's 4 million cars in Mexico and Brazil,, I have no idea what the population is in those two countries,,, we sell 10 million in the US? Not sure why you would even put that here but ok.
Point is, how many cars are sold per capita? per household? Throwing out those comparisons without adaquate detail doesn't actually prove much.
Mexico and Brazil combined are almost the same population as the US. There is a lot of room for growth in those countries. My point. though, is that car companies cannot just look at the US market as end all/be all. If they compete only in the US at the expense of other, potentially more profitable markets, then they will lose in the long run.
The US market is probably around 30% of a car makers total market. (That's a best guess) Auto makeres cannot ignore the rest of the world if they want to survive.
In the end, how do we create incentives that truly create and save US jobs? I think that this could be done through a VERY targetted tax incentive program that I outlined elsewhere in the forum, which would take the average number of jobs an employer has, and then figure in the jobs gained or lose over the course of the year. (By taking an average of payroll hours paid and creating and average employment profile, and comparing with the previous year, not by manipulating hiring/firing to generate tax incentives)
In the end, "punishing" companies rarely works. They simply pass the cost of the punishment along to the customer. Rewards work much, much better. So .... how do we reward companies that grow their US employment?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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But let me ask you one if I may,, America is the largest consumer nation (per capita) in the world, I think you would agree right?
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Maybe, but I cannot find figures one way or the other. Actually, I doubt we are, on a per capita basis. I bet somewhere like Switzerland has higher per capita spending. There are probably some European countries that beat us on a per capita basis as well.
Hmm, I am pretty sure we are still the largest consumer per capita,, Let me see if that's changed,, I'll do some digging either later tonight or tomorrow,, I'll let you know for sure.. Hey,, my info I know is at least a year or two old so you could be right..
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So what happens when the American consumers buying power is decimated to the point that all we can barely afford to do is shop at WalMart?
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That is a tremendously difficult question to answer. The only harder question is how do you shore up the middle class without forcing companies that must compete globally to survive out of business?
It is a tough question, amazingly difficult to answer and I'm afraid I don't have an answer either.
As for how to compete globally,, You have a point, not sure if it's possible under the business model we worked under in years gone by. But if we don't find a solution that keeps the middle class working, then I know this for a fact, we aren't ever going to return to prosperity in the USA.
Remember something else, This is coming from a guy who's pretty much an optimist...
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They also opened a new plant in Tennessee in December 2009. Did that lead to closure of an older plant? Was it because certain products were made their that needed to be made elsewhere because of demand? I don't know. Do you?
yeah, I do. The Graco plant here made baby products,, like car seats etc. It was in the paper locally that those jobs are being shipped overseas.. I can only go by what's reported on TV and in the Paper. because I really don't know anyone that works there..
Here is thier website so you can see the product line:
http://www.gracobaby.com/Pages/Home.aspx
Here is the article about them shipping the jobs to asia
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/06/newell_rubbermaid_to_close_gra.html
that was entirely to easy to verify man...
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How do we balance factories and jobs vs the need to stay in business?
I don't know,, but if it involves the destruction of Americas Middle Class, it's not a good plan,, another needs found.. again, if everyone is counting on me to find the solution,, we're in trouble on so many levels...,so it's kinda silly to keep asking me.. Not sure how many times I can tell you I don't know.
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As far as incentives for moving jobs overseas ..... I'm sure that it's not as straighforward as that. It rarely is. I do agree that there are certain tax provisions that should be abolished or amended. I'm just not sure that the bozos in Washington are at all qualitfied to do the job.
Well, here's some sources of information on the subject.,
this one is from the AFL CIO so it's certainly biased.... But still a decent read
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/exportingamerica/outsourcing_solutions.cfm
this is from some site called Sodahead... Hey, Don't ask me,, but they do take Obama and Congress to task so I figured you'd like it
This is from "ontheissues.org.., man you are gonna love this if you hate Obama...LOL
But it does lay out some of the complexities of the issue.. not the easiest of reads, but can be fun..
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Jobs.htm
There is a ton more.., just type this into google: Federal Incentives to move jobs overseas
that will keep you busy till the first preseason game..
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What I would like to see is some form of tax incentive for investment in the US as opposed to penalties.
Oh man, I couldn't agree more.. American Business isn't the villian some make them out to be. without them, we are toast.. guaranteed
We need to forge an environment that makes it more profitable to be patriotic and keep jobs here. What that is, got me,, But now your talkin....
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My point. though, is that car companies cannot just look at the US market as end all/be all.
No question,, I want them selling cars overseas.. I'd prefer those cars be made here and shipped to other countries, but that's just not practical. And it doesn't foster good relations.
it's like Nissan, Toyota and Honda building cars in the US using American Citizens as employees. it's good for America, it's good for the car companies, and it's good for the economy.. Same could be said for when GM puts a plant up in Mexico.. it's just the way of the world.
But when a graco does it, we aren't talking about an amazing overseas market they are trying to penetrate, they are doing it so they don't have to pay an American worker 12 bucks an hour.. They can get it done for 12 bucks a week in Asia. (not sure of those numbers, but you get the drift)
When the company I won't name publically did it, it wasn't to foster a new market,, not even close.. they did it to save on Manufacturing costs., the incentives not excluded.
Not all corporations or situations fall neatly into a "one size fits all' kinda deal.
And they shouldn't be addressed in a cookie cutter fashion,, at least I don't believe so.
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In the end, how do we create incentives that truly create and save US jobs?
Just off the top of my head, I have one really crazy idea... And I mean this is just nuts.., Might be suicide to even think about doing it. I'm almost afraid to say it. But here goes
As a percentage of jobs retained and NEW jobs created increase, the Employers portion of the Federal Income Tax decreases.
I think there has to be a delta where with X new jobs created/retained, the loss of tax revenue per person starts to become an overall increase in actual dollars generated. I think? I'm no math whiz.. 
I don't know if that would work,, but it's one nutbags (me) thought.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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IMHO, it's a difficult question, and one that cannot be answered by simply saying "we shouldn't let anyone move US jobs to ......" How would you handle these challenges?
I would agree 100%. This question is very difficult. The cost of labor is so much cheaper in China and India that any punitive taxes would not prevent offshoring. Even if we did make taxes so that offshoring was more difficult, you then run the risk of not only losing manufacturing divisions, but pushing the entire company overseas.
The manufacturing jobs that are gone are gone for good. In the 1950's, 60's and 70's, overseas markets like China and India didn't have as much educated, skilled labor necessary to make the high tech products we were making here. Now, by sheer numbers and a focus on education, both of these countries have sufficiently skilled labor forces to do the jobs that used to be done in America, for pennies on the dollar.
IMO, there are two areas that are tough to sell politically b/c the results aren't seen immediately, but that are essential for the US economy to remain a power in the long term. We need to have a strong focus on education and research initiatives.
We need to be making products that no one else in the world has the expertise to. I'm no policy expert, but there are several areas I could think of. One is to boost research spending in areas like NASA, NIH, and other more private research centers like the former Bell Labs and STI. These are the types of places that a lot of ideas come from, that the private sector can then run with and perfect. Second is to make it easier for these ideas to flow out of the purely research environment into the private sector. Kind of like how the Third Frontier has worked in Ohio. Something akin to this could be tried on a national level. The education part comes in when we need to train workers to do jobs that no one has ever done before.
As far as the short term, I don't think there are a lot of policies that we can tweak that can change the current cautious climate. After all, we just had the biggest economic contraction around the world since the time of the great depression. We just have to ride it out and let companies/people see that things aren't getting worse, and they will start hiring/spending again. If this requires unemployment benefits, so be it. I prefer this to lowering rock bottom interest rates even further, or lowering capital gains taxes even further to artificially boost the market.
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