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So I'm curious. In your government managed utopia.. do the president and the political leaders also have to live in 6 room houses, use the public medical system, eat food only when it is available, etc? Or do they get to continue to live high on the hog?
In the ideal Socialist/Communist/Marxist world they live in the same type of house, have the same medical system, and eat when they need to eat.
Historically, they generally haven't. With the exception of Lenin. Lenin lived on a small estate with his wife and family. Beginning with Stalin (hence the term Stalinism) they have not lived Spartan lives.
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My second question is, what is your success model to prove that your system will work?
Throughout history there are examples. They are not "Socialist" in name. But their systems are Socialist. There is the Incan Empire who used Socialist ideals to expand their Empire. There are the simple tribes that existed throughout the world in various times. The Clan system of Scotland, the tribal system of early hunter-gatherer societies. Etc...
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Has it worked before? Does it continue to work?
Yes and again yes. In small societies it has worked and in large throughout history. The only time it has failed is when there is insidious groups that undermine the system or when those that should be equal instead choose to continue the previous system but under the facade of Socialism (Stalin, etc...)
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"It just hasn't been tried by the right people yet." So I'm curious how you feel about that.
Yes, that is true. When it has been tried by the right people, they were either old or ill and their systems went to the wrong individuals. In the example of the USSR, had Trotsky become premier instead of Stalin the system likely would have worked and continued. However, Stalin, being the power-hungry individual that he was, declared Trotsky an enemy of the state and the rest is history.
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At least you are against abortion.
I strongly dislike abortion. But, there are instances where abortion is necessary. Incest, etc...
In the ideal world if society truly is conetent and social class is gone.
Then if a parent does not want a child, the government will put them up for adoption. But, this is not the ideal world, is it?
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The Northern Iowa Tea Party has put up a billboard in Mason City comparing President Obama to Hitler and Lenin (see the AP story, which includes a photo, here). "RADICAL LEADERS PREY ON THE FEARFUL & NAIVE," the billboard reads, below photos of the three alleged radicals.
Without getting into the merits of such comparisons (the group's co-founder to the AP that the billboard supports an argument for Obama's socialism), here's a knee-jerk reaction: the meme of Obama/Hitler comparison is more fully embraced by Tea Party activists than some in the movement would like to believe, or would like everyone else to believe, or would like to be the honest truth. Tea Party organizers will tell you that the most offensive and/or aggressive signs seen at their rallies were, to their own suspicions, planted by liberals. The Obama-as-Nazi signs don't express the true sentiments of the (albeit totally disparate) movement, they say, and not only should they be ferreted out by self-policing Tea Partiers and fail to survive the movement's vicious Darwinism, but some of them are probably held up by liberal posers seeking to discredit the movement. Multiple leaders at high levels of Tea Party organizing groups have said this.
But in Northern Iowa, evidently, there is institutional support for comparing Obama to Hitler, whether or not other leaders agree with it.
LINK
It's pretty tasteless, but no less tasteless, and certainly no more, than all of the left-wing propagandizing that made the exact same comparison between Hitler and Bush.
Same thing, sides reversed.
You're welcome?
Browns is the Browns
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I'm still curious in how you can be so confidant that the government, or perhaps more accurately, the CORRECT government people can be found and put in place to take all of this power that you wish to give them and not abuse it terribly.
yebat' Putin
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I'm still curious in how you can be so confidant that the government, or perhaps more accurately, the CORRECT government people can be found and put in place to take all of this power that you wish to give them and not abuse it terribly.
I lean towards agreeing with you here ... I believe there's certain basic traits that get in the way of this ideal system.
However ... it's worth noting that our system of government actively perpetuates and seeks out power-hungry, corrupt people for the position. You don't get to be a Senator or a President without displaying those traits.
So, could it happen? I don't know. Unlikely? But we're not doing ourselves any favors.
I think voting for people who didn't/don't want the job would do a world of difference in many cases.
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I'm still curious in how you can be so confidant that the government, or perhaps more accurately, the CORRECT government people can be found and put in place to take all of this power that you wish to give them and not abuse it terribly.
If those in charge do not abuse it, the system will work. You are judging it based on the idea that those in charge MUST be corrupt.
There are times when those in charge were not corrupt, even in systems of feudalism (where everything is supposed to be corrupt) there are instances of kings that actually lived up to their promise. The idea of a benevolent king or dictator is found throughout history, and yes, a benevolent dictator - as Cincinnatus shows.
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I think voting for people who didn't/don't want the job would do a world of difference in many cases.
I agree those that don't want the responsibility generally are the right people for the job. Though, that does not hold true all the time.
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At least you are against abortion.
I strongly dislike abortion. But, there are instances where abortion is necessary. Incest, etc...
But if there were no incest, there would be no Pittsburgh.
Now that I think of it, you might be on to something great. 
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I'm still curious in how you can be so confidant that the government, or perhaps more accurately, the CORRECT government people can be found and put in place to take all of this power that you wish to give them and not abuse it terribly.
If those in charge do not abuse it, the system will work. You are judging it based on the idea that those in charge MUST be corrupt.
There are times when those in charge were not corrupt, even in systems of feudalism (where everything is supposed to be corrupt) there are instances of kings that actually lived up to their promise. The idea of a benevolent king or dictator is found throughout history, and yes, a benevolent dictator - as Cincinnatus shows.
In a perfect world.. noone will be corrupt.... but the fact remains power corrupts and absolute power corrupts even more.. Yes of course, you may find some rulers that are not corrupt only to see them be replaced with rulers that have less scruples...
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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In a perfect world.. noone will be corrupt.... but the fact remains power corrupts and absolute power corrupts even more.. Yes of course, you may find some rulers that are not corrupt only to see them be replaced with rulers that have less scruples...
Obsolute Power does not corrput absolutely.
Cincinnatus, believe it or not, was a real person. Throughout history there are benevolent kings. I'm not going to look them up, because they are well documented and you can look them up yourself.
There are good people out there. But yes, power CAN corrupt people. But power does not necessarily corrupt everyone.
In Socialism/Communism/Marxism the government is intended to be temperory. That is why, in the long term, Socialism is more along the lines of Anarchism. Because eventually, once the system is in place, once the people themselves can govern themselves the government fades away and ceases to exist. Because it has served its purpose. Much like Cincinnatus, the power is there when it is needed. Once the situation has died down, a return to the simple life, so to speak.
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haha I am glad you finally admitted what you are, I have known all along. I consider myself a libertarian by today standards, in reality I am more of a Jeffersonian Republican...My ideals are much like Jefferson and Madison's. I am also glad you posted about your against private property. Socialist/communists/liberals(liberal new sexy word for commies) have no respect for people owning land charlie...you do realize the socialist ideas and the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin,etc have resulted in nothing but: 1. people persecuted 2.people butchered and slaughtered like sheep the socialist system is responsible for butchering more people then any other form of government in the history of the human race Look how many people Stalin butchered How bout the Chinese...of course you don't remember the Chinese Blood Bath in the Tiananmen Square of Beijing...I was buddy you may have been wearing diapers then... you have no idea what your talking about....rule by an oligarchy...that just sounds grand...NOT I am not saying I agree with the sign Obama is nothing more then a corporatist just like Bush Jr. was thats all, nothing more, nothing less... the problems however are just now becoming apparent...the house of cards is collapsing...people are mad, they are finally figuring out the scam socialism and capitalism can NEVER coexist because socialists/communist can and will never respect private property rights.... the majority of Americans want to co back to our Constitutional roots and get rid of these socialist welfare programs and we will 30 years from now, American Politics will look like it did in the 1950's minus the Joe McCarthy witch hunt...a conservative fiscally responsible government...about time too i'll tell you what charlie go pack your bags and move to China and come back in 3 years and tell us how much you just love your Socialism/Communism guess what in socialist/communist regimes...you speak out against the govt..you end up disappearing buddy...you have been spoiled here in American and quite frankly you don't even deserve to be here, and the thought of you living here saying these things makes me sick you sir are a piece of work.. there is no such thing as an educated socialist, only a stupid one that needs the government to make all his decisions and ration all his supplies for him because he is too stupid and incompentent to do it on his ownSorry I don't fit that mold, neither do most americans, but I am sure you do... 
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In a perfect world.. noone will be corrupt.... but the fact remains power corrupts and absolute power corrupts even more.. Yes of course, you may find some rulers that are not corrupt only to see them be replaced with rulers that have less scruples...
Obsolute Power does not corrput absolutely.
Cincinnatus, believe it or not, was a real person. Throughout history there are benevolent kings. I'm not going to look them up, because they are well documented and you can look them up yourself.
There are good people out there. But yes, power CAN corrupt people. But power does not necessarily corrupt everyone.
In Socialism/Communism/Marxism the government is intended to be temperory. That is why, in the long term, Socialism is more along the lines of Anarchism. Because eventually, once the system is in place, once the people themselves can govern themselves the government fades away and ceases to exist. Because it has served its purpose. Much like Cincinnatus, the power is there when it is needed. Once the situation has died down, a return to the simple life, so to speak.
In a perfect utopia, things will all be perfect.. but in real life, it'll only take time for someone to rise up and screw things up, even if the people have control. Things just cannot sustain themselves within a perfect utopia in real life. There are too many factors that just mess things up.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I am just curious, but what would my motivation be to work at all in this type of system? I certainly would not work as hard as I do today; I would do the least possible to get by if I did anything at all. Would this not stunt innovation? Or make our society into one that is a bunch of mindless zombies?
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for every one benevolent king there are many mass murdering idiots..see Nero Caesar, etc... They tell you that they are temporary, in reality those systems have the goal of enslaving people for the benefit of the few (Oligarchy) you don't know much about the Soviet Union do you? The Politburo, the Oligarchy, lived quite well as did the dictator look how the citizens lived...like garbage, treated like complete trash and slaughtered like cattle... The dictator needed the support of the Politburo to ensure support of the military...but thats another matter Communism/Socialism/Marx was never intended to be temporary...it was meant to enslave people indefinitely, its nothing like Cinncinatus because the power will never fade...only enslavement under such a system a person can't: 1. own land 2. choose waht career they want to pursue 3. buy as much of any item they can afford 4. must stand in breadlines and have everything distributed (the oligarchy lives well, you live like garbage) I could go on and on... you sir are insane if you would willingly accept enslavement perhaps you are just born to be a slave I sir am not cut from that kind of cloth and i want absolutely no part of it.. Jefferson said it best Quote:
A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Those systems have done nothing but produce tyrants and tyranny I want no part of them...
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Obsolute Power does not corrput absolutely.
Cincinnatus, believe it or not, was a real person. Throughout history there are benevolent kings. I'm not going to look them up, because they are well documented and you can look them up yourself.
There are good people out there. But yes, power CAN corrupt people. But power does not necessarily corrupt everyone.
In Socialism/Communism/Marxism the government is intended to be temperory. That is why, in the long term, Socialism is more along the lines of Anarchism. Because eventually, once the system is in place, once the people themselves can govern themselves the government fades away and ceases to exist. Because it has served its purpose. Much like Cincinnatus, the power is there when it is needed. Once the situation has died down, a return to the simple life, so to speak.
The problem with the theory is that:
Whether or not it corrupts is strictly contingent upon the personality of the man with the power... and those around and under him. It takes far more than one person adhering to the principles for it to work.
Far more often than not, the good ones are undermined and ousted by those who seek power.... count the number of coups that have occurred in your lifetime vs. the number of utopias created.
You cite what those governments are intended to be.... well, the Road to Hell is paved with the best of intentions. It is actions that matter. History shows that temporary influence of gov't is a mythical beast.
No gov't will allow itself to "fade away", lest it risk the perception of irrelevence, lest it risk the loss of power. Noble thoughts; however a completely fictitious reality... like any utopia, it exists only in fairy tales.
Browns is the Browns
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If those in charge do not abuse it, the system will work.
The same could be said for capitalism. If CEO's didn't stress profit as their only motive, if they didn't gouge the market, if they made decisions based on society... if.. if... if.
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You are judging it based on the idea that those in charge MUST be corrupt.
No, I'm judging it based on human nature and the idea that human beings are prone to wanting a better life and many people will get it even at the expense of other people... so if you give all power and control to a select few people, it is only a matter of time before some of them realize they have all of the power and control and take advantage of it to better themselves.... Because you have already given up your property rights, you have given up your wealth, you have given up your guns.. you are helpless.
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The idea of a benevolent king or dictator is found throughout history, and yes, a benevolent dictator - as Cincinnatus shows.
The idea of socialism/marxism have been tried repeatedly down through the ages.. the fact that you have to go back 2500 years to find ONE dictator that exemplifies the point you are trying to make is sort of self explanatory as to why I don't have much faith in it working.
yebat' Putin
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I am also glad you posted about your against private property.
I have no reason to hide it. As I said, form follows function.
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Socialist/communists/liberals(liberal new sexy word for commies) have no respect for people owning land
Not "commie". Communists/Marxists are the revolutionaries. They are the ones who force Revolution. Revolution occurs naturally. When the people themselves have enough, they know when the time comes. It is not anyones place to force something when it is not time. That is where the revolutionaries like Guevara, Lenin, Castro are wrong. When the time comes, it comes. There is no reason to actively force change.
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charlie...you do realize the socialist ideas and the ideas of Marx, Engels, Lenin,etc have resulted in nothing but:
1. people persecuted
2.people butchered and slaughtered like sheep
They were not implemented correctly. Instead they perverted Marx's teachings to fit their own needs. Lenin did many things right. But many things wrong as well. He lived the Spartan life, which is good. But, like the others, he too craved power. He forced change, Russia was the wrong place to have the Revolution. Russia was still in the Fuedal society and capitalism had not taken root. The natural order of things was not there in Russia. So, Lenin forced change and then tried to create a Capitalist/Communist mix. Taking what he percieved as the best of both.
In Russia, the businessmen (capitalists) never had power. Serfdom, or feudalism, was not abolished in Russia untill the 1860's.
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the socialist system is responsible for butchering more people then any other form of government in the history of the human race
Look how many people Stalin butchered
No, the people that perverted Marxist-Socialist theory are responsible. Also, it is highly unlikely that those that perverted Socialism caused as many deaths as theocrats.
Perverted Socialism hybrids have been in existence since 1918.
Theocracies have been in existence from Mesopotamia to the modern day.
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How bout the Chinese...of course you don't remember the Chinese Blood Bath in the Tiananmen Square of Beijing...I was buddy you may have been wearing diapers then...
China is not a socialist country. China is a mixed system. They are Communist/Capitalist mixed together. Just as the USSR was.
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you have no idea what your talking about....rule by an oligarchy...that just sounds grand...NOT
Ask the Romans under Cincinnatus how terrible it was. The Roman Republic was at its height.
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Obama is nothing more then a corporatist just like Bush Jr. was thats all, nothing more, nothing less...
Exactly, you are correct. Obama is a corporatist.
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the problems however are just now becoming apparent...the house of cards is collapsing...people are mad, they are finally figuring out the scam
Not quite. But seemingly close. But, then again, when aren't people angry at a corrupt government?
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socialism and capitalism can NEVER coexist because socialists/communist can and will never respect private property rights....
Yes it can. Just look at China and the USSR (when it existed). The USSR thrived off of capital. The problem is, the rest of the world was not under their system. So, the capital was limited. In order to fix the situation, they went forth and created satellite states whose income went to the USSR. The so called "Iron Curtain". China, they continue to thrive on their mixed system. You want proof that they are mixed? Where are American corporations moving to maximize their profit? Is it America? Or is it China?
In a Socialist world, corporations are not for-profit. They are there to fit the needs of the people. Monetary systems, in Socialist theory, eventually fade away as does the government. To be replaced with a barter system.
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the majority of Americans want to co back to our Constitutional roots and get rid of these socialist welfare programs and we will
Tell that to the Police Department, Fire Department, and Construction Workers. Once those socialist systems are gone, things won't be so great.
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i'll tell you what charlie go pack your bags and move to China and come back in 3 years and tell us how much you just love your Socialism/Communism
As I said earlier, China is not a Socialist country. In fact, there are few Socialist countries in the world. Because those that claim to be are based on the perversion that Stalin and Mao created.
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guess what in socialist/communist regimes...you speak out against the govt...you end up disappearing buddy...
In a true Socailist system, there is no need to speak out because you are content. The "Socialist" governments that exist today are perverse hybrids in which an individual is in charge rather than an assembly. This individual is given dictator power. So, not quite right.
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thought of you living here saying these things makes me sick
you sir are a piece of work..
I am a piece of work by talking about an ideal world. A world that is, at the moment, a dream. I am not advocating revolution. I am not sitting here saying overthrow the government. I am sitting here saying essentially:
"I have a dream".
Yet, white supremacists are "Patriots"?
No, sir, you are a piece of work.
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there is no such thing as an educated socialist, only a stupid one that needs the government to make all his decisions and ration all his supplies for him because he is too stupid and incompentent to do it on his own
I think that you just have a problem with somebody being "educated". Do I think I'm better than anyone else? No. I am content with living a Spartan life. But, since you are not content with living a simple life, and want to instead live in a mansion and you defend those who have everything while so many have so few. Yet, I am the "bad guy"?
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Yet, white supremacists are "Patriots"?
No, sir, you are a piece of work.
Now where does this enter into this discussion? Who even brought up white supremacists and even the word Patriots?
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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This thread will become one of those epic ones.... Communist on the Browns board...priceless.....
If Charlie didn't seem so passionate and knowledgeable about communism/socialism, I'd almost guess it was a troll attempt.
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Now where does this enter into this discussion? Who even brought up white supremacists and even the word Patriots?
I am implying.
I am not sitting here advocating mass murder or anything like it.
I am not a revolutionary Marxist.
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If Charlie didn't seem so passionate and knowledgeable about communism/socialism, I'd almost guess it was a troll attempt.
Thank you. Now, can't we all just be friends and love the Browns and hate Pittsburgh?!
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Now where does this enter into this discussion? Who even brought up white supremacists and even the word Patriots?
I am implying.
I am not sitting here advocating mass murder or anything like it.
I am not a revolutionary Marxist.
Implying what? I really don't see how you get from socialism to the KKK in this discussion... What exactly are you implying?
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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If Charlie didn't seem so passionate and knowledgeable about communism/socialism, I'd almost guess it was a troll attempt.
Thank you. Now, can't we all just be friends and love the Browns and hate Pittsburgh?!
I tried that in this thread. It went un-noticed : (
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Implying what? I really don't see how you get from socialism to the KKK in this discussion... What exactly are you implying?
The Confederate States of America was "home-grown".
Socialism became popular with the writings of Karl Marx, a German philosopher. So, not created in America.
I am deemed to be "Un-American" because I believe in something that originated in another country and so I should move to China because it considers itself to be "Socialist" (which is a laugh).
So, I ask, what should happen to the KKK and other White-Supremacists?
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They should move out as well.
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So, I ask, what should happen to the KKK and other White-Supremacists?
I have no idea how the hell you get to them when discussing politics (and no, I really don't want any insight into that part of your mind), but for all I care, shoot em & bury em.... and do the same with the Black Supremacists/Extremists and the Mexican Supremacists/Extremists, etc.... and please leave me with a bunch of people with common sense that can live amongst each other without being dumbasses.
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They should move out as well.
So, everyone that does not agree with you, should move out?
Don't you think that will create an extremely lonely place?
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If Charlie didn't seem so passionate and knowledgeable about communism/socialism, I'd almost guess it was a troll attempt.
Thank you. Now, can't we all just be friends and love the Browns and hate Pittsburgh?!
Not likely bud...you're in the thick of it. But props for sticking up for your views, even if they are bound to be unpopular here.
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I like these kinds of stories because it shows that as much as both sides want to say about how our Constitution is being trampled on it shows both extremes of diehards can go and do these kinds of things and not get immediately silenced or killed for it. There is still a freedom of speech and it allows for the discussion to continue.
While people agree and disagree over these types of thing I don't believe that is the main purpose of it all. I believe it allows for sane discussion that says that Obama isn't Hitler, General Mao, or any other crazy polarizations that Beck, Rush and the countless others say he is. It allows for people to really think how and why these people believe these ideas. It ultimately opens up discussion among the common american populace which shows them what they really want instead of listening to politicians make lies.
Whether you agree or not with these crazy messages I ultimately believe these far out ideas will finally encourage politicians and the common day american to sit down and look at themselves to see what they can do better for the people and family members they actually represent.
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They should move out as well.
So, everyone that does not agree with you, should move out?
Don't you think that will create an extremely lonely place?
Yeah, that's exactly what I said. 
No ... people who believe the country should change into something that is completely opposite of what the founding fathers designed it to be should leave. This country was made on a capitalistic ideal, where all men should start on equal footing, but those who work and achieve success should not be punished for it or made to support those who wish not to achieve any success. If you want a socialistic country, then move to a country who's founding principles are based on socialism. Same thing with white/black/etc supremists ... this country was based on the ideal that all men were created equal, so if you think one race should be superior to another ... then move somewhere where that's a founding belief.
Charlie, I suggest you read the book "Animal Farm" ... it's a satire that basically explains the problems with socialism.
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Dawg Talker
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so I should move to China because it considers itself to be "Socialist" (which is a laugh).
No...you should move to China or some other socialist leaning country because it more represents your beliefs. Ergo(to use your words) you will be happier.
Instead you choose to support policies that destroy and eat away at the very principles and foundations this country was built upon.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Implying what? I really don't see how you get from socialism to the KKK in this discussion... What exactly are you implying?
The Confederate States of America was "home-grown".
Socialism became popular with the writings of Karl Marx, a German philosopher. So, not created in America.
I am deemed to be "Un-American" because I believe in something that originated in another country and so I should move to China because it considers itself to be "Socialist" (which is a laugh).
So, I ask, what should happen to the KKK and other White-Supremacists?
Right, because there wasn't racism until the American south invented it.
Can I equate Karl Marx philosophies to the Nazis then? since they are both from Germany and all..
You were told to move to China by one poster.. extrapolating out that everybody who disagrees with you must feel that way is a pretty dangerous road to be on. Are you unAmerican? Yes, I would say you are.
What should happen to the KKK? I suppose as long as they keep their ACTIONS within the law, they are free to THINK whatever they want.
yebat' Putin
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Charlie, I suggest you read the book "Animal Farm" ... it's a satire that basically explains the problems with socialism.
I have read it.
But, to be blatantly honest, Orwell was writing about the corruption that Stalin brought. Orwell was, like myself, a Socialist. Using Animal Farm as an example, Napoleon (the pig) tried to supplant the Farmer and take over in the farmer's stead. So, Napoleon wanted to be the one in charge. The true Socialists in the story are represented by the character of Snowball.
Snowball overthrew Farmer Jones and worked towards the collective good of everyone on the farm. Forming committees that oversaw the needs of the animals. However, Napoleon wanted to be in charge and give himself ultimate power. So, Napoleon undermined Snowball's authority and eventually Napoleon the Pig kicks Snowball out of the farm.
Napolen then assumes control and eliminates the programs that Snowball implemented. So, to make Animal Farm allusion of Socialism in general. Snowball was a Socialist who was overthrow by a Communist (Napoleon). Snowball was not a bad leader. Snowball did what was right by the farm. Things were working out well. But, the dream was ruined by Napoleon.
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What should happen to the KKK? I suppose as long as they keep their ACTIONS within the law, they are free to THINK whatever they want.
Good, then we have an agreement. I am keeping my actions within the law. I am not storing weapons in the hopes of overthrowing the government. I am simply sitting here living my life. I have a dream on what would be a better world. But, that is it, it is a dream. It is no more real than whatever you dreamed last night.
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What should happen to the KKK? I suppose as long as they keep their ACTIONS within the law, they are free to THINK whatever they want.
Good, then we have an agreement. I am keeping my actions within the law. I am not storing weapons in the hopes of overthrowing the government. I am simply sitting here living my life. I have a dream on what would be a better world. But, that is it, it is a dream. It is no more real than whatever you dreamed last night.
I, and most others here, have no problem with you other than serious political differences of opinion which most of us are glad to debate... and I actually enjoy debating with somebody who actually will profess to BE a socialist. Usually I debate with people who are 90% socialists but haven't come out of the proverbial political closet yet.
yebat' Putin
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I have read it.
But, to be blatantly honest, Orwell was writing about the corruption that Stalin brought. Orwell was, like myself, a Socialist. Using Animal Farm as an example, Napoleon (the pig) tried to supplant the Farmer and take over in the farmer's stead. So, Napoleon wanted to be the one in charge. The true Socialists in the story are represented by the character of Snowball.
Snowball overthrew Farmer Jones and worked towards the collective good of everyone on the farm. Forming committees that oversaw the needs of the animals. However, Napoleon wanted to be in charge and give himself ultimate power. So, Napoleon undermined Snowball's authority and eventually Napoleon the Pig kicks Snowball out of the farm.
Napolen then assumes control and eliminates the programs that Snowball implemented. So, to make Animal Farm allusion of Socialism in general. Snowball was a Socialist who was overthrow by a Communist (Napoleon). Snowball was not a bad leader. Snowball did what was right by the farm. Things were working out well. But, the dream was ruined by Napoleon.
You read but yet fail to comprehend....The point is there are ALWAYS going to be "Napoleons" out there. It is not a story of what MIGHT happen...it is a story about what WILL happen. It is a complete indictment of socialism and the folly or (you might even say) it's illusion of it's utopia.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Napolen then assumes control and eliminates the programs that Snowball implemented. So, to make Animal Farm allusion of Socialism in general. Snowball was a Socialist who was overthrow by a Communist (Napoleon). Snowball was not a bad leader. Snowball did what was right by the farm. Things were working out well. But, the dream was ruined by Napoleon.
That's the point ... there will ALWAYS be a "Napoleon" that's going to come in and try and assume power. Even if you get a guy like Cincinnatus who had the perfect ideals and won't be corrupted, there will still be a guy waiting in the wings to take power ... either by force or after natural death.
The only way socialism works is if everyone has the same moral understanding and beliefs ... like an Amish or Mennonite society. Those are good examples of well-working socialistic societies. The problem with that though, is that everyone has to buy in to the same moral belief, and those who don't are placed out of the social network. Works great for a small community, but not an entire country.
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Snowball was a Socialist who was overthrow by a Communist (Napoleon). Snowball was not a bad leader. Snowball did what was right by the farm. Things were working out well. But, the dream was ruined by Napoleon.
Ok, I have stayed out, but can stay out no further if we are going to literary references
Snowball was a terrible leader. He implemented a system that was completely reliant on everyone falling in line with no consequences for those who didn't. As a result, his power was usurped.
It was usurped by those who were unruly and the farm was in worse shape than it ever was under the farmer. That is on snowball almost as much as it was on napoleon.
There must be consequences. Best example is anyone who has had children. The most important thing to teach them is that there are consequences for bad behavior. If you don't, bad behavior will persist. This doesn't mean clubbing them or anything extreme either.
on the same line of thought, you never did answer how you believe it is possible to keep people motivated in a completely socialist state. (and no, I'm not accusing you of ducking the question, you only have 1000 of them being flung at you. but, this is one of the huge problems with socialism)
#gmstrong
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Pete, this has been my argument all along.. power hungry people ARE OUT THERE... they always have been and they always will be and they will eventually take control of a situation for their own benefit. To deny that in human nature is the first major flaw of any theory... sort of like having physics laws that start with the premise that there is no gravity on earth.
So the choice is, do you have a largely capitalist society with some tenets of socialism in it where they power is somewhat disbursed between several branches of government, state governments, the voting population, and yes, corporate interests... or you have a society with is largely socialist where all power rests with a select few within the government... Seems to me that the larger and more diverse the group in power, the slower or less likely they are to assume the kind of power they are not supposed to have.
Now I know that in Charlies utopia, you work your way out of the need for a government.. but this is fallacy. We live in an interconnected world, somebody has to have responsibility of dealing with other nations, other leaders, providing for our defense, etc... THERE HAS TO BE A GOVERNMENT.. and as such, that government always has the potential for tyrrany if left unchecked.. and in his utopia, they are unchecked.
yebat' Putin
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Charlie,
First, I think I'm among many that gained a ton of respect for you in this thread. Lots of people were lumping you in with mac, but you actually seem interested in debating, starting with a brief summary of your beliefs. I respect you for that when lots of people are lining up to shoot holes through your arguments.
I didn't read everything you said, but I have a high degree of certainty that I disagree with just about every view you have. Oh well. Go Browns?
The one thing I do have to say about your beliefs and arguments is that they seem to be contrary to all/most of the ideas that made this country great (not perfect, but great). Those beliefs also seem to be in line with several governments that were failures (colossal, epic failures by about every measurable aspect).
That being said, I enjoy reading your responses.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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