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Is this project on the site or close to the site ???
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I think that most people, including Muslims, would be apprehensive at the very least.
Once upon a time, in this very country, and a mere 60 - 70 years ago, anyone resembling a person of Japanese descent would have created a similar response.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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now THAT would be a worthy memorial.
No, it wouldn't.
"My signature line goes here."
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Do you really feel that it's not a back hand that they want to put a Mosque there?
I already said I thought it was.
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Also tell me this, do you feel morally elite because you try to show how understanding and protective you are of muslims practicing religion?
I'm not understanding and protective of the Muslim faith. I think it's very archaic and stupid.
Again, something I've already addressed ... do you read my posts?
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I bet you wouldn't dare take a open shot at muslims and stereo type them because they are a minority and you are worried you might look bad, yet you so easily stereo type the Catholic church because it's cool to bag on your own kind (as in alot of Americans are Catholic) right?
Again ... I think all religion, especially the Muslim faith is completely idiotic. I crack on their faith all of the time, because it's archaic, and stupid.
I think you need to read my posts a little closer.
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Just clicking....
concerning YTowns scenario....That is a wonderful way to look at it. There is just one problem. Not everyone will interpret the scenario in that same manner. Even if every single person in the US understood it in the manner you propose(which is impossible). That is not good enough. While we are celebrating our diversity....Extremists are celebrating their victory of establishing a foothold in what could be considered the most un touchable places on earth. Non radical muslims will probably laugh at us for willingly and graciously allowing what would seem absolutely unfathomable in their land (you think this action would open them up to allow a Christian, Jewish, or Bhuddist church in their area???? Not likely...)
So sure allowing this mosque to be built "could" send a message of peace. We send messages all of the time. But what message is being received? We see all of the time here on the message board where posts are misinterpreted. Things get heated rather quickly. and the message board is rather benign.
YTowns scenario is good in intention and in theory...but we don't live in those places. We live in the real world and in the real world. the message of peace and understanding will be lost quite quickly if this mosque is built.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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j/c
Just wanted to point out that this mosque would be built NEAR ground zero, not ON ground zero.
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I read your posts, of course I had to sound out the words, but by point wasn't weather or not you supported the religions it was the way you support and talk about the people who are involved with the religion. If you sounded out my posts like I do you yours you would see that.
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You could be right, you could be wrong. Who knows? that's the problem with groundbreaking first steps..... there's alot of risk.
Unfortunately, although I think the idea would be great, you're probably right and it realistically won;t work. There's far too much anti-muslim sentiment in North America right now for that to be successful. Until the States and Canada pull out of the middle east, I think the atmosphere would remain too toxic.
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Again ... I think all religion, especially the Muslim faith is completely idiotic. I crack on their faith all of the time, because it's archaic, and stupid.
If they would to build a religion mall, they better account for the atheists. Maybe plop a Cristie's Cabaret next to a Baptist church. What will they do for the Scientologists? Erect a statue of Tom Cruise?
For someone to even consider putting a Mosque here is for no other reason than to incite.
"My signature line goes here."
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Legend
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The most extremist might very well see it that way. They might see it as weakness.
Who cares what they think?
We will never reach them, and they will spin and twist anything that happens to their own ends anyway.
Peace will not be reached with the extremists. It will only be reached when the extremists are marginalized to the point of irrelevance by those practicing the same faith. How does that happen? I don't think it happens by shutting them out and making them the enemy?
Look back at our own military history. Imagine if we had said that we were going to ostracize Germany and Japan ...... and that those people would be unwelcome, regardless of whether or not they had taken part in the war. Imagine if we had remained on a path of discrimination against those Japanese Americans living in this country? Would our country be where it is today? Would it be better, or worse?
I suspect that it would be a lot worse.
It is easy to villify an entire group of people because of race, or religion. It is harder, more dangerous, and ultimately far more rewarding to welcome those who would live in peace. In this situation, I happen to believe that it really is the only path to victory.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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j/c
History is full of leaders who maimed and killed in the name of religion. You can not hold a few extremists against a whole religion.
That being said, I can see where people could be offended by the idea of a mosque on the property, but it is ill guided feelings based on media propaganda.
But we also must remember ground zero is like a 7 block area, in lower Manhattan, some of the most expensive real estate in the country. We don't need the entire area to be a memorial, and I'm sure the owners of the land would like to sell or lease some pieces of the land.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I would say it's all off limits just to make sure not certain religions try to erect a building to prove their point. The more I think about it I think even attempting to put a Mosque in that area was a totally ignorant idea. Why would they want to put it there other than to prove some kind of point??
Good point......this is Sacred grown leave religion out of the equation.
I have no problem with any religion building their churches in this country.
Just another case of a group of citizens trying to promote their religion on the rest of the country.
C'mon there is no other place to build their church.
Folks need to see this for what it truly is.
Good O'l fashion adulterated attention seeking.
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Well I think before we can attempt anything like this......we have to make sure the message is going to be correctly interpreted. Especially by all those involved...and all those indirectly involved. Make no mistake...the radical Muslims and Islamic Nations definitely fall within those categories.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Again, I think your intentions and theory is correct. BUT what good does it serve if the message received is not the message you are sending out???
You want to send out a message of Peace and Understanding....
But if the message received is weakness???
Who will it hurt???? Oh I don't know...why don't you ask the 1500 people that died on Septermber 11, 2001......or perhaps the several thousand more that have been killed or wounded in the susequent Wars that grew from this event...........Perhaps they can tell you what showing weakness throughout the 90's brought them????
So if the message is Peace and Understanding.......we have to make sure that Peace and Understanding is the message that is received. Right now...that is NOT what is going to happen. Not even in the slightest.
Believe me, I would love for youe scenario to come true. It is a goal worth aiming for. But we need to set the foundation for that scenario to happen. We need to make sure our true message is received.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Your multiple religious buildings is a noble idea, but do you think it would/could happen? Would they really believe in what they were doing when shaking hands or would it just be a nice PC photo-op?
It would come down to who in each religion you had.. I know of all the pastors I've ever had that none of them had a problem with peaceful Muslims, Jews, Buddists, whatever.. I'm sure some Christian pastors aren't quite as tolerant.. and I'd bet its that way across most religions.. so it's not about the religions making it work, it's about the individuals making it work.
yebat' Putin
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A message of peace and understanding can always be perceived as weakness.
Always.
Then again, a message of strength can be perceived as arrogance. A message of power can be perceived as hatred. Any message can be twisted into something else.
The message of Jesus was often twisted into something else by His enemies during His time on Earth. If it could happen to Him, how could we not think that it "could" happen to us as well. However, if the message is good, it will sink in with 1 .... or 2 .... or a few more .... then maybe a few more ......
And it's a lot harder to proclaim someone the "Great Satan", when they are promoting a message of peace, and love, and acceptance of those who would return the same.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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but by point wasn't weather or not you supported the religions it was the way you support and talk about the people who are involved with the religion.
I support peoples' right to express their religious views and to worship without persecution.
Now, my thoughts on their faith(s) certainly differs and takes on a negative tone. But that's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it, just as they are entitled to spread the word of their god and worship it.
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I also just wanted to add ......
Could you imagine bin Laden's face .... if, on the scene of his biggest "victory", the media could show a Mosque, a Church, and a Synagogue, all opened side by side by side ..... with the leaders of each shaking hands and promising good fellowship with one another.
i agree completely with your initial post and I also agree with this.
As to the ad. I wouldn't air it either.I found it distasteful. They are trying to lump all Muslims together as hating America.
#gmstrong
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I find symbols to be for the symbol-minded.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Your multiple religious buildings is a noble idea, but do you think it would/could happen? Would they really believe in what they were doing when shaking hands or would it just be a nice PC photo-op?
It would come down to who in each religion you had.. I know of all the pastors I've ever had that none of them had a problem with peaceful Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, whatever.. I'm sure some Christian pastors aren't quite as tolerant.. and I'd bet its that way across most religions.. so it's not about the religions making it work, it's about the individuals making it work.
Man I truly understand your motivation, but the world doesn't work like that. We don't need to make that area another religious battle ground like in Jerusalem.
JMHO.
Is there a buddhist shrine @ Pearl Harbor?
Poor judgement on their behalf
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Good post YT. I totally agree. Peace and understanding isn't always a weakness, and doesn't necessarily mean that those employing it let others walk over them or allow themselves to be treated as doormats.
There are no sacred cows.
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I have a question.
Lets say you just boarded a flight to the west coast to visit family as I did just this past Tuesday and while you were buckling in your seat 5 muslim men in their 20's boarded the plane and all sat in various locations thoughout the plane.
How comfortable would you be?
I'd feel very comfortable. I've taken the time to take a course over the past few months discussing all the major religions in the world. In the course I learned the exact truth on all major world religions from Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Here I learned a relatively no slant based take (my professor stated he was a Christain) on Islam where I found that the extremists are just fringe groups who do not speak for a whole on Islam and that they are a relatively small group.
I believe this is the approach that America really needs to take against the terrible preconceptions of the Islamic faith. Whether you agree or disagree with what rules and traditions muslims or any other religious groups hold you shouldn't go out and assume they're out to commit jihad or go blow up an abortion clinic.
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I learned the exact truth on all major world religions
I'm sorry that part made me chuckle.. I understand what you are saying and I respect you for trying to learn more on the topic but there are so many facets, so many different things going on that there really is no "exact truth" regarding any of the worlds religions.
yebat' Putin
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I believe this is the approach that America really needs to take against the terrible preconceptions of the Islamic faith. Whether you agree or disagree with what rules and traditions muslims or any other religious groups hold you shouldn't go out and assume they're out to commit jihad or go blow up an abortion clinic.
Sure you shouldn't assume anything about passengers on a plane
But the fact is that many people notice who is around them now on a plane. If someone looks suspicious (or Muslim, I will admit it), I take notice of them. I will not be impolite, but like plenty of other guys on this board, if something isn't right, I want to be prepared so that business can be done with no hesitation when it needs to be done.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Man I truly understand your motivation, but the world doesn't work like that. We don't need to make that area another religious battle ground like in Jerusalem.
JMHO.
The world doesn't work like what? Like religions are run by different people and some people could make it work while others could not? I'm sorry, I'm not wrong.
Building a mosque or a church is hardly going to make a place into a sacred holy place like Jerusalem.. there are churches and mosques all over the world, none of which equate to mecca.
And if not here, then where? If not now, then when? I mean I'm not calling for the unified one world church but there is no reason religions shouldn't be able to get along.. all I read about is how the vast majority of folks in all religions are peace loving people.. fine, it's time to put up or shut up. At some point somebody has to be the grown up in this whole thing and I would rather it be us... if that ruffles some feathers or creates some strife then fine....
yebat' Putin
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PDR,
In principle, I agree with you. Islam is a religion based around love and is one of the most peaceful religions out there.
Unfortunately, there are bad eggs (that's an understatement) in every religion, and that shouldn't be held against the religion as a whole. A religion shouldn't be characterized by the bad eggs (Muslims blowing themselves up in crowded areas, priests molesting kids, etc.).
That said, putting a mosque at or near ground zero is bad form. It seems like a slap in the face to the people affected by 9/11.
It's not wrong (morally or legally), as far as I can tell, but it's not right, either.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I don't see a problem with this, America is supposed to embrace diversity. Now if this is the only religous institution planned for the area, that will raise some eyebrows. Islam didn't commit 9/11, extremists did. Maybe America, at least those who follow Christianity, should practice what they preach. 
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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PDR,
In principle, I agree with you. Islam is a religion based around love and is one of the most peaceful religions out there.
Unfortunately, there are bad eggs (that's an understatement) in every religion, and that shouldn't be held against the religion as a whole. A religion shouldn't be characterized by the bad eggs (Muslims blowing themselves up in crowded areas, priests molesting kids, etc.).
That said, putting a mosque at or near ground zero is bad form. It seems like a slap in the face to the people affected by 9/11.
It's not wrong (morally or legally), as far as I can tell, but it's not right, either.
And I ask again, if it was a worship house for any other faith, would people consider it not right or bad form?
To say that it's in bad form or not right is to say Islam = 9/11. And that's simply not true. These people didn't do this because they were Muslim. Their Muslim tendencies were used against them.
Take a look at bi Laden -- how many kids does he have? How much money? Do you believe for a second that this guy is serious about his faith, that he's driven by his faith? Dude is a shuckster, no different than a healing televangelist, but with deadlier tendencies. Those buildings didn't go down because of religion, they went down because a very wealthy sociopath convinced confused people to stick it to the government he hated.
I think that this location was meant to prod and incite. I think it's a stupid idea, and I don't have much respect for the beliefs of Islam.
However ... watch it, folks. You're persecuting religion. Plain and simple.
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j/c
Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:
Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.
Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
Man I truly understand your motivation, but the world doesn't work like that. We don't need to make that area another religious battle ground like in Jerusalem.
JMHO.
The world doesn't work like what? Like religions are run by different people and some people could make it work while others could not? I'm sorry, I'm not wrong.
Building a mosque or a church is hardly going to make a place into a sacred holy place like Jerusalem.. there are churches and mosques all over the world, none of which equate to mecca.
And if not here, then where? If not now, then when? I mean I'm not calling for the unified one world church but there is no reason religions shouldn't be able to get along.. all I read about is how the vast majority of folks in all religions are peace loving people.. fine, it's time to put up or shut up. At some point somebody has to be the grown up in this whole thing and I would rather it be us... if that ruffles some feathers or creates some strife then fine....
I am personally not offended by the church.....I do however question their motivation to build there.
Were as I do agree that we as a species need to find a common ground. I don't believe that religion is the bridge to cross for us to get there.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif)
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2nd String
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Lets say you just boarded a flight to the west coast to visit family as I did just this past Tuesday and while you were buckling in your seat 5 muslim men in their 20's boarded the plane and all sat in various locations thoughout the plane.
How comfortable would you be?
Well how would we know what religion they are? I mean not all Muslims look alike.
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Legend
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I'm pretty sure you know he was talking about those with the more stereotypical appearance...
yebat' Putin
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I assumed that's what he meant, but I just wanted clarification of whether or not the men on the plane are supposed to look like stereotypical Arabs or for some reason we have the ability to figure out someone's religion by looking at them
But to answer his question...I wouldn't feel all too great about the situation. Is it prejudiced? Of course. But no one said it was a rational fear.
Just my two cents
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It's a simple case of racial profiling, the kind we all do in the back of our minds everyday...
yebat' Putin
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for some reason we have the ability to figure out someone's religion by looking at them
Well, in the new world, we will soon have our SS#, Economic class, religion, party affiliation, and Health care ID # tattooed on our foreheads. So it will be easy to pick out the Muslims 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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So what right would you have stopping a building " Near " , but not on the site ??? I'm am in no way in favor of the idea .. But
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So what right would you have stopping a building " Near " , but not on the site ??? I'm am in no way in favor of the idea .. But
As I said previously, you have the same rights as those who fight prisons, landfills, stadiums, schools, new housing developments, etc from being built near their homes.. it's a zoning issue... and those things can (and are) contested.
In this case, the building is already there. Just so people understand that, the building is existing and they just want to do major renovations then occupy it as a mosque and a community center (not sure if that is specifically for Muslims or if anybody can use the community center).
The main argument for stopping them is that it is a historic landmark because it was so close, it was damaged on 9/11 but survived, etc... if you can designate something as a historic landmark that makes it much easier to restrict its use..
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,478
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,478 |
Like I said, I agree with you in principle. What you said is correct (racial profiling/religious prejudice is bad), no arguing that. That's why if they decide to push building this mosque, nobody should be able to challenge them building there without some zoning loophole or something.
I guess what I'm saying is that I would expect the people behind the building of that mosque to sit back and say something like, "Hey, this might strike a sore spot with a lot of people, maybe we should reconsider this."
And let's be real for a minute. There's a reason Muslims have that stereotype. It's because there have been numerous incidents, involving a small percentage of the Muslim people, where Muslims have been involved in deadly terrorist activities. Stereotypes are bad, but the sad part is they aren't just born out of thin air. There is some degree of truth to them.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,767
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf
Just Google this nit nort! He's the guy driving this thing.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,960
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,960 |
Quote:
However ... watch it, folks. You're persecuting religion. Plain and simple
yes, that did happen 
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Kill the Ground Zero Mosque Ad
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