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Phil no disrespect but I don't base what I'm going to say on my post count. Sorry man. Some will like me and some will not, that's what happens in life.
Nothing to do with post count, everything to do with content.
I do not wish to imply any harshness or disdain towards new members. I was just trying to say that debate ranges beyond insult around here ....
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I agree with you 100%, but this is not what this bill is doing.
The sentiment that you and I share is what the lobbyists and legislators preyed on. It's why people are defending this bill.
If they wanted to do this thing right, they should've just banned 'pre-existing conditions'. Nothing more, nothing less, and worked on a solution from there. P.E.C. is the biggest problem we have in health care today. Folks having no health care is a shame, but folks who actually pay get dumped from their coverage because someone in a cubicle found a loophole.
And look who gets all the benefits from this fascist handout ... the people who brought you the pre-existing condition'.
The problem I see is that health insurance companies only have profit margins on the order of 2-3% (overall in the US). This is very small compared to more high end industries like beverage distributors (25%).
The reason they maintain this margin is through dropping sick people and use of the pre existing condition among other things (deplorable to say the least). Solely eliminating these tactics without some kind of compromise with insurance companies would've led to an even bigger disaster; substantial rate increases on all existing customers (80% of the nation) to make up for all the extremely sick people they would have to cover (around 75% of the costs of all health care in this country are for long-term, chronic illnesses like diabetes).
If this were simply a fascist handout, then the bill would've only made the mandate, thus providing insurance companies with profit. Instead, there are a lot of beneficial things in there for everyone, at large cost to the insurance companies. Pre-existing conditions go away, insurance companies can't drop people when they are sick, there are no lifetime limits, regional exchanges will make it so there aren't local insurance monopolies, etc. A handout is giving the companies money with no sacrifice from them. As I see it, this is a compromise.
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There's your good cause, Mr. suck off your sociology professor's teet!! Come on Charlie lets hear you be an apologist for him!! Don't give me no garbage about him being the exception either, there are millions just like him.
Extrapolating from one story to "there are millions just like him" is not accurate at all. There are jerks in all walks of life, but it is a huge mistake to see a few jerks and assume everyone is like them. Unless you are a social worker who has worked for years and years in many different regions of the country who is also willing to observe the instances where good people get back on their feet through assistance, I don't think you have enough experience to make this claim.
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Some will like me and some will not, that's what happens in life.
Well that's what happens in real life, but for some of these younger generations it's not supposed to be like that, we need to hold their hands and tell them they are perfect and all is fair, even and balanced.
Man they are lucky we are a more advanced civilization. Cause if we were still hunters or gatherers, many of them would have died off in the first winter, waiting for everyone else to do the work and bring the food and build the shelters for them. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Extrapolating from one story to "there are millions just like him" is not accurate at all. There are jerks in all walks of life, but it is a huge mistake to see a few jerks and assume everyone is like them. Unless you are a social worker who has worked for years and years in many different regions of the country who is also willing to observe the instances where good people get back on their feet through assistance, I don't think you have enough experience to make this claim.
TJS, I'm not even going out on a limb when I say that your assumption is wrong. Argue all you want. I know that there are people that need help and use the assistance in a positive manner but there is also an equivelent manner who abuse the system like a red headed step child. I know what my experience in life and work allows me to make a judgement on and it doesn't need your approval. Which is what I felt you were insinuating.
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Well that's what happens in real life, but for some of these younger generations it's not supposed to be like that, we need to hold their hands and tell them they are perfect and all is fair, even and balanced.
Man they are lucky we are a more advanced civilization. Cause if we were still hunters or gatherers, many of them would have died off in the first winter, waiting for everyone else to do the work and bring the food and build the shelters for them.
Florida, You said a mouthful. I like you already. The younger generation believes everything is going to be even steven and if you disagree your just a big ol' jerk. I realized in alot of elementary schools they don't even get letter grades, it might hurt their fragile little egos. Little league baseball they don't keep score, yeah wait until later in life when they do realize that everyone isn't a winner and can't handle it when they are told that they have to work to be at the top. It's a harsh reality but all people aren't created equal. We are all just given the opportunity to thrive to the best of our abilities but that isn't realized when kids are led to believe they are all winners.
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I guess it's just me. I mean I'm 52 yrs. old, so I know I'm not young & dumb.
But, I find nothing wrong at all with your post. Your just saying things in black & white. Some people just like to hear things when they don't sound so bad. Which I could never understand, all it amounts to is being
politically correct.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Which I could never understand, all it amounts to is being
politically correct.
It has nothing to do with political correctness and everything with not dumbing down arguments to the lowest common denominator.
His responses to Charlie would be no different than me responding to his opinions with something like 'Did Rush Limbaugh convince you of that?' or 'you're just a blind sheep who's clueless'. That's a cop out, and a sign of weak debate.
Say what you will about Charlie's opinions, he knows his history, knows his convictions, and isn't merely parroting talking points. To degrade his argument down to 'you're parroting a college professor' is the same as 'you're parroting Sean Hannity' ... it's inane, it proves nothing, and it stagnates debate.
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TJS, I'm not even going out on a limb when I say that your assumption is wrong. Argue all you want. I know that there are people that need help and use the assistance in a positive manner but there is also an equivelent manner who abuse the system like a red headed step child. I know what my experience in life and work allows me to make a judgement on and it doesn't need your approval. Which is what I felt you were insinuating.
It's not about anyone's approval. You can make any judgments or opinions you want, and express them any time you want. That is everyone's right on here. But if you're going to trash someone else's viewpoint, and the whole basis of your argument is a very large statement with little evidence to back it up, followed by a number of insults, then you are not engaging in constructive debate. You are just making noise.
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But, I find nothing wrong at all with your post. Your just saying things in black & white. Some people just like to hear things when they don't sound so bad. Which I could never understand, all it amounts to is being
politically correct.
Without a doubt, political correctness rules the world now days. If you don't bite your tongue then your a bad man. Look I might have been a little rough on Charlie, but I was just calling it how I saw it. I feel like he is very book smart and is excellent at regurgitating what he is told. Phil calls it knowing history and good debating, I call it not seeing how things are in the real world. Phil knows there was much more to my post that stating my opinion of where he gets his ideas but it's just easier to redirect the attention when the point is not in their favor. I guess it's just the way of a Libby.
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It's not about anyone's approval. You can make any judgments or opinions you want, and express them any time you want. That is everyone's right on here. But if you're going to trash someone else's viewpoint, and the whole basis of your argument is a very large statement with little evidence to back it up, followed by a number of insults, then you are not engaging in constructive debate. You are just making noise.
Again you and Phil just love focusing on what you call trashing someones view point. I gave a real life example, first hand experience. Sorry that I didn't quote Karl Marx or something like that, apparently that's more legit. I have plenty of real life evidence to debate. But here, lets continue to focus on a select fews dissatisfaction of me pointing out that just because it's in a text book or out of a professors mouth doesn't make it legit. As someone else said, I will just start tossing out Hannity, Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck quotes. I'll definately the the master of debates then.
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I guess it's just the way of a Libby.
Perfect illustration of my point.
What does that even mean?
Nothing. It's the equivalent of sticking out your tongue and making a face.
It's not constructive, it adds nothing and it's a great example of divisive ignorance.
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Oh Lord help us! (me saying Lord doesn't offend you does it)? Listen dude, I'm sorry for anything I may have said that offended you. You're probably the best poster I ever read on here. You are right in every way as is Charlie (to Charlie's credit he hasn't come on here and complained and he was the one I originally responded to). I must have been drunk to argue and in the process be a bit politically incorrect. I'm most sorry for offending you. I guess I should be more sensitive. Obama is the best president ever and may we all get free stuff in the future and be free of working for it. You're view is right on target as is Charlies, I was just an idiot, thanks for bringing me back to reality. Are you happy?? Can you let it go now?? Hope I covered all the bases. Yay the world is now made of gum drops and marshmallows!!
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Again you and Phil just love focusing on what you call trashing someones view point. I gave a real life example, first hand experience. Sorry that I didn't quote Karl Marx or something like that, apparently that's more legit. I have plenty of real life evidence to debate. But here, lets continue to focus on a select fews dissatisfaction of me pointing out that just because it's in a text book or out of a professors mouth doesn't make it legit. As someone else said, I will just start tossing out Hannity, Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck quotes. I'll definately the the master of debates then.
No one on here has ever said that it had to be from a text or from Karl Marx. You gave one real life example, and then proceeded to state the "millions more are like him." If you have plenty more examples, that's fine. But unless you have hundreds of thousands more from across the nation, this is not enough to accurately judge millions who receive assistance around the nation. If you do have extensive experience like this, why don't you just share it with us?
My earlier point was that you remember the loud mouth from the other day; you probably don't remember the people who stand there quietly, accept their check, and leave quietly. Nor the people who use it properly, b/c they don't make the news.
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No one on here has ever said that it had to be from a text or from Karl Marx. You gave one real life example, and then proceeded to state the "millions more are like him." If you have plenty more examples, that's fine. But unless you have hundreds of thousands more from across the nation, this is not enough to accurately judge millions who receive assistance around the nation. If you do have extensive experience like this, why don't you just share it with us?
I don't have time to type up every example I see of the system being abused. I shouldn't have to because I will bet money that you know plenty of people yourself that do it and if you don't, well God bless you. I did say that there are plenty of people who use the system for its intended purpose but also mentioned the millions who don't. Do you really think that the case I mentioned was an isolated one that only happened in Erie County?? You really disagree that there are millions wasting tax payer money?? If your answer is yes to both of those questions then it's not even worth arguing with you about. It's obvious all you want to argue is my writing style. 
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I think you're the one who isn't getting it ...
Read my posts ... I hate Obama ... he's a complete disaster ...
My problem isn't with your political views, it's with your mind-numbing method of argument. It's not liberal, it's not P.C., it's about fostering good, solid debate, which at the moment, you, in my opinion, are severely lacking.
Read the site ... many, many folks who I chat with regularly I disagree with entirely. But we have enlightening debate.
I've made all the points I need to make here.
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I can understand your anger. A member of my family has taken advantage of state assistance, non-profit assistance, and assistance from other family members. And then has the nerve to show up with new automobiles, new tech gadgets, etc when the week before they were complaining that they couldn't afford their bills. This made me absolutely furious, b/c I busted my butt for little more than minimum wage, and I can't afford those things.
I'm not denying that assistance programs get taken advantage of. Likely at higher rates than anyone would like. But I would not be bold enough to predict that half are committing abuse, based solely on limited personal experience relative to the number of cases in the country and news stories. As long as it is 50-50 or better, IMO the program is worth it. Mostly why I feel this way is that welfare has become much tougher to get, has time limits, and penalties for fraud much stiffer since changes were made in the late 90's. The system was really being abused before that. Accordingly, less and less people were on welfare every year up to the start of the recession.
There is only so much the government can do to limit fraud and waste, and they did most of it in the late 90's. The cost of investigating and prosecuting is vastly more than just accepting the inefficiencies that come along with helping a substantial number of people.
Last edited by tjs7; 07/27/10 01:24 AM.
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Cool, we agree to disagree. You think I lack debating skills. Oh well, I disagree, and my life will go on. I think you have selective reading comprehension and only see what you want to see. You probably disagree, again, oh well. See how that works, you try to take a jab by telling me by saying I'm lacking in something and I'm going to let it go. Much like Charlie did. Let the grown man argue his own battles if he feels I offended him.
**Charlie didn't mean to offend you dude, I just say what comes to mind sometimes. I'm sure your an alright guy even if I disagree with your views with every inch of my soul.
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I can be on board with alot of what you wrote there. This is where my line of thinking is though to correct the problem. The government seems to want to help those in need and that is fine for people like seniors and those with diabilities, I get that. The others that need help is because of a mixture of lack of jobs or lack of self motivation. In my ideal government they would decrease taxes on big business and keep them in America in turn they open up good paying jobs. This allows those able to work to do so and those who are able and not willing, well they should be out of luck and get no assistance. Since there is more working Americans they no longer need as much money for social programs the government wont miss the tax revenue lost by cutting tax. Sure some might not have the education for the better paying jobs but they have every opportunity to go back to school. Now days anyone with a pen and motivation can go to college.
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In my ideal government they would decrease taxes on big business and keep them in America in turn they open up good paying jobs.
I understand the sentiment, but logistically how would that work?
Even if we were to waive taxes entirely, companies would still have more incentive to move elsewhere, from a bottom line perspective.
I find that in a lot of thinking in this regard, people forget that companies and corporations have zero loyalty to America. None.
These places aren't desperately searching for a reason to stay ... they're looking for the bottom line pay off ... and their country doesn't equate into the scenario.
You could cut taxes to zero -- hell, you could offer a government subsidy refund (we do ... often) -- and it's not a solution so long as under-a-dollar-an-hour labor exists in the world.
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Of course it's a good cause when my money is going to you and your family. Boy your college professors must really love how you believe everything you read and are told by them.
I don't accept other people's charity towards me. I am happy with what I have. So, no, I don't collect food stamps. But, I do have a stamp collection from when I was a kid, if that counts. I don't like attention drawn towards me, so, why would I talk politics with professors? I am friendly towards many professors I've had over the years. But, I live by the motto:
"Don't bring up politics or religion unless the other person brings it up.
If people want to know my political feelings and ask me, I tell them. If they don't ask me, I don't tell them. If somebody tries to push religion on me, then I tell them how I feel about religion.
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As another poster said about your loans and other infor being our busines. Well he's absolutely correct and if you don't agree quit applying for programs where you use tax payer money.
Millions of students take out loans in order to attend college. So, if you have an issue with me taking out loans in order to attend college - I suggest you inform the millions of others that are using loans to get through college.
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I know you think that they are helping out all these people that just have it so rough
Helping others without wanting nor accepting a reward (including recognition) is a good thing. When people are struggling through life, you help them. You don't ignore them because you believe things will get better when they "die" if they were "good" enough. This life is all we have, so it is best to make the most of it for yourself and others.
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I had to go to the local county assistance office to assist a client for my job and what I saw and heard pushed me over the edge. A guy in his mid 20's in good health standing in line for cash assistance (free gosh dang money) complaining out loud that he could not believe that he had to stand in line for 20 minutes and wait for his money while he could be sleeping!! It's about 11:00 AM mind you!! To top it off he has on a pair of Tommy Hilfiger jeans a Timberland sweat shirt, and a pair of Nike Air Jordan shoes, all in like new condition. Yep sure glad my tax money was able to help this guy get nice clothes and probably a dime bag!! You go Charlie!!
You are judging somebody based off of appearance. At first glance at me, people would say that I am physically healthy. However, I have many health related issues. Who is to say that that man's clothing was bought for by welfare? Who is to say that those weren't gifts given to him by a loving family member (for a birthday or what not). How can you say that he is a drug user? Did the Nike's give that away? One can make obnoxious assumptions about anything and everything from a single glance.
If you see a guy walking the block over and over screaming some name at the top of his lungs, one may think he's crazy. But, at a closer look, he may be looking for a lost dog.
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Mr. suck off your sociology professor's teet!!
I've already stated before, that I have felt the way I do, politically, for a far longer period than College. People who knew me in Middle School knew I was very political.
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Come on Charlie lets hear you be an apologist for him!! Don't give me no garbage about him being the exception either, there are millions just like him.
"In the Eye of the Beholder"
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but many other things are as well. Nobody can escape their own personal biases. Many people who are conservative, when they see somebody homeless, they think to themselves:
"What a bum, soaking off the system, why doesn't he go get a job. Why doesn't he pull himself up using his own bootstraps"
But, you don't spend one second to hear their story. One thing that can really open your eyes is to actually listen to them. Hear whey they are homeless. Sure, it may be just another sob story to you. But, it is a person's life we are talking about - not a character in a book or movie.
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#gmstrong
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I'm not denying that assistance programs get taken advantage of. Likely at higher rates than anyone would like. But I would not be bold enough to predict that half are committing abuse, based solely on limited personal experience relative to the number of cases in the country and news stories.
This is coming second hand so take it for what it is worth.....Based upon my what my wife has told me.....I would. And she see both sides of the issue on a daily basis. Now before you make any assumptions...let me tell you she is FAR more left leaning than I am....Where people do need help....she also sees the abuses. She claims that most are just trying to work the system rather than find a way off of it. And when I say most...I am not meaning 51 percent. She says women are the biggest abusers. She sees transportation as one of the largest of abuses. They can't afford the bus or a taxi so they call for an ambulance which costs the taxpayers about $1000 to come out and bring them to the hospital....then they leave the ER and go and do what they have to....
I honestly wish she could come on here and tell the offenses she sees on a daily basis...And she has a very intimate view of it as a property manager for low income housing in Cleveland. But she has no interest in coming onto a football message board or any message board...I will do what I can to change her mind...She actually has some different ideas about how to run some things....some from her thesis in college 15 some years ago and others from her 15 years of experience in the field...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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[quoteThey can't afford the bus or a taxi so they call for an ambulance which costs the taxpayers about $1000 to come out and bring them to the hospital....then they leave the ER and go and do what they have to....
Hey now, that's an idea. I can get in a quick nap on my way to the destination and everything. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Your wife obviously has far more experience than me. And abusing ambulances is not only expensive, but dangerous for others in the community. I'm not going to say she is wrong at all, maybe in Cleveland fraud is much, much higher than other places. It wouldn't be the first time our city was a leader in some kind of corruption. No offense to you or your wife, but I am looking for a scientific treatment of this question with the more broad perspective of around the world. I googled "welfare fraud statistics" and looked at the first 4 pages of hits for studies. http://grandjury.co.la.ca.us/gjury99/REPORtgj-15.htmFrom 1998, a study conducted for a grand jury in Los Angeles county found 50% no fraud, 30% inaccurate reporting that ultimately didn't lead to changes in assistance (something like being off by a $1,000 in reporting income, but still being below the cutoff for assistance). So approx 20% fraud. http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/about_us/fraud_stats.htmEntitlement reviews study done in Australia (2008-2009), estimates about 16% fraud. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usab5206.pdfPage 5, internal auditors of Social Security (2004) estimate 10% fraud. http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/members/pressrelease.asp?pressid=3039&party=2&memid=10757The only dissenting opinion, not scientific at all though. A press release from a Minnesota politician. He doesn't quote any study or offer a source for his numbers, but opines "it’s possible three out of every four welfare applications has errors or purposefully bad information listed in hopes that a perpetrator can scam the system." Now I didn't go through the hundreds of pages on google, but estimates from different countries, different states, and different systems put fraud at around 10-20%. JMO, but if assistance programs are 80-90% on the up and up, then I'm fine with that.
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Maybe I read it wrong, but your first link for LA County is only referring to reported cases of fraud. Not that it changes much, percentage wise it is probably a somewhat accurate profile. But even 20% is a lot. "Achieving the statewide Early Fraud denial rate of 22.8 percent in Los Angeles County would eliminate estimated ineligible benefits payments of approximately $46.6 million per year." $46 million is a good chunk of change, even in California, and identifying and eliminating fraud in the system means there could be more resources for those that truly need them. Then you have just poor accounting and overpayments Code:
It should be noted that State regulations permit "write-offs" of overpayment accounts on closed cases with
no repayment activity within the last three years. The Department estimates that all but $100 million of the
outstanding $325 million overpayment balance meet this criteria, further reinforcing the observation that the
potential for recovery decreases over time.
Table 5
Collections on Overpayments, Calendar Year 1998
Active Cases Closed Cases All Cases
Starting Overpayment Balance $63,637,929 $251,658,110 $315,496,039
New Overpayments Identified $16,639,534 $9,813,333 $26,452,867
Grant Reduction Amounts $11,431,392 - $11,431,392
Cash Collections $255,618 $4,569,926 $4,825,544
Total Reductions & Collections $11,687,010 $4,569,926 $16,256,936
C as % Overpayments Identified 70.2% 46.6% 61.5%
C as % Starting Balance 18.3% 1.8% 5.2%
Gross Ending Overpayment Balance $68,590,453 $256,901,517 $325,491,970
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Just to add...your studies are looking for specific uses of fraud. While the ambulance cases are definitely a form of fraud....many of these people do have medical conditions that essentially hide the "intent" if you will. Or they have a child with a cold that they call the ambulance for...etc.
Also...many of these people are not doing anything illegal in the sense that they file the paperwork etc......which is also what alot of these studies are looking for....they are just playing the system with no intent whatsoever of trying to get off the system...So ok... if they are not looking for those things then obviously they are not going to find it.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I agree. 20% is quite a bit. But it is not the 50%+ that was intimated at earlier in the thread. That's my only point. I'm not making excuses for the fraud that does occur, just that it's not necessarily as extensive as thought.
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