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But what happens if you don't have your papers with you.
Then you make a phone call and get your ID ... If that doesn't work, you call the consulate. This isn't rocket science Charlie. It's pretty much the same thing I would have to do if I went to Europe and got pulled over for something.
I'd respond to your earlier post, but it was so riddled with rhetoric, unfounded paranoia and xenophobia, I don't know where to start. 
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Wrong.
I'm talking about illegal aliens. An illegal alien is someone who has illegally entered and is living in this country. YOU are talking about Mexicans in order to try to pull some sort of race card.
Since we are also talking about Arizona, most of the examples will be of Mexicans.
Charlie, at the very least, make up a new name for them (other than immigrants). An immigrant is someone that enters the country legally (they have immigrated into the US). That involved documentation, paying taxes, yada-yada. My buddy Jorge, is an immigrant. My grandfather and father was an immigrant.
People stopped by cops in AZ and who can't produce papers because they never had them... they are illegal aliens.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
-Ballpeen
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Also, if you want to talk about illegal "immigrants". You really should change the name of immigrant to what you really mean. You aren't talking about illegal Russian immigrants. You aren't talking about illegal Canadian immigrants. You are not talking about illegal Chinese immigrants. You are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants.
Well when 99.9% of your illegal immigrants are from one country ... why should we be talking in-depth about the others? They are subject to the exact same law, but they aren't "targeted" because you'll be hard pressed to find one in the first place.
It would be like saying you're no longer allowed to posts political comments ... but you think it unfairly targets your left-wing comments because we aren't going after your conservative posts. 
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I'm talking about illegal aliens. An illegal alien is someone who has illegally entered and is living in this country. YOU are talking about Mexicans in order to try to pull some sort of race card.
I think that pretty much sums it up.
Maybe if I can get enough Irish-Americans to start robbing banks, then when they start cracking down on bank robberies, we can all just scream "racism". 
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Next time I get pulled over while driving (knock on wood) I should throw a hissy-fit when I get asked to produce proof of insurance and a drivers license.
No, that is different. You are being asked to identify yourself as proof that you are the owner of the vehicle and that you have insurance.
Also, if you want to talk about illegal "immigrants". You really should change the name of immigrant to what you really mean. You aren't talking about illegal Russian immigrants. You aren't talking about illegal Canadian immigrants. You are not talking about illegal Chinese immigrants. You are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants.
Dude, get a clue. An illegal immigrant is an illegal immigrant no matter where they come from. It just happens the biggest source of illegal immigrants in this country are mexicans. But the law applies to any illegal immigrant.
It makes me wonder charlie why you are so eager to defend criminals. I guess we should stop arresting people for murder or robbing banks to... 
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Well when 99.9% of your illegal immigrants are from one country ..
I think that number might be a bit high considering all of the other illegals coming from Central America. I say insted of shipping them all south we drop them off at the Canadian border. They are some nice folks. I'm sure they wouldn't mind helping them out.
#gmstrong
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It was a generalisation, I'm sure. They all cross the border from that singular country.. it's close enough.
Once they cross over, nobody particularly cares whether they are Mexican, Guatemalan or Venezuelan or whatever... they just don't want them here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I realize that. I just pointed it out for Charlie's sake since he wants them all called Mexicans.
#gmstrong
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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This law is targetting Mexicans - period.
They call it a strawman because he lacked a brain, little known fact.
The law isn't 'targeting' Mexicans. It is targeting illegal aliens. In Arizona that can be Mexican, or any other Hispanic national or...wait for it...Asians are pretty popular border jumpers as well. It is only 'racist' because the weak minded can't come up with a better defense. My wife is Canadian and subject to the same laws as your "Mexicans". She has to carry her green card with her and has actually been asked for it since it is her ID. It isn't racist because she is a caucasian, but if she was Hispanic it would be racist?
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It's pretty much the same thing I would have to do if I went to Europe and got pulled over for something.
But if you are in Europe you are a foreigner,many who are targeted by this law are not foreigners. They are American citizens.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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It's pretty much the same thing I would have to do if I went to Europe and got pulled over for something.
But if you are in Europe you are a foreigner,many who are targeted by this law are not foreigners. They are American citizens.
KING
In Europe, as here, you'd be treated just the same as everyone else until the cop realized that you couldn't speak the local language.
NOBODY that is a citizen is targeted by this law... that's b.s. propaganda.
Browns is the Browns
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It's pretty much the same thing I would have to do if I went to Europe and got pulled over for something.
But if you are in Europe you are a foreigner,many who are targeted by this law are not foreigners. They are American citizens.
KING
In Europe, as here, you'd be treated just the same as everyone else until the cop realized that you couldn't speak the local language.
NOBODY that is a citizen is targeted by this law... that's b.s. propaganda.
Really? So there is a law saying that you must carry ID on you at all time? Let me answer my own rhetorical question,no there isnt. BUT, if you are a American Citizen of latino descent in Arizona you had better have a ID on you when you walk down the street because if you dont you can be detained and made to prove you are here legally.
If you as a American citizen of european descent want to walk down the street in Arizona without a ID are you in danger of being detained?
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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And, if you are in Europe and don't have your ID on you, you have the potential to be detained. Quote:
If you as a American citizen of european descent want to walk down the street in Arizona without a ID are you in danger of being detained?
Probably not... unless I do something stupid to draw the attention of the police to where they stop me and ask me for ID... at which point, I may well be detained.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I'm an American citizen (look the part and all), and I DON'T walk down the street without an ID. I say everyone should have an ID easily accessible at all times as a matter of common sense. Might be going off on a tangent here, but do people really walk out their front door without anything in their pocket? Even when I go running (no pockets on my shorts), I have one key and a photo ID. When driving, having my wallet with ID is even more of a no-brainer. Maybe that's why I'm having such difficulty understanding this. I can't comprehend going out into the world without at least 1 official document proving who I am on my person.
"I'll take your word at face value. I have never met you but I assume you have a face..lol"
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Really? So there is a law saying that you must carry ID on you at all time? Let me answer my own rhetorical question,no there isnt.
Let me correctly answer your rhetorical question. Astoundingly YES, you may be required to carry your identification on you.
In Europe I was informed to keep my passport on me at all times. (Compared to India, Asia and the Philippines where I was informed to keep it locked in the hotel safe.)
India is currently instituting national ID cards that all must carry. Bulgarians over the age of 14 are are fined for not having their ID. In Belgium everyone over the age of 15 MUST carry their identification cards at all times. French law requires some sort of identification be presented if requested by a law enforcement. Germans have a national identification card that must be presented upon request, but they do not have to carry it with them at all times. It is sufficient to present it later, however it is commonly carried anyways. The conversation never came up with the Swiss, neutrality maybe! I didn't go to Argentina but believe they must carry their ID on them as well.
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Also, if you want to talk about illegal "immigrants". You really should change the name of immigrant to what you really mean. You aren't talking about illegal Russian immigrants. You aren't talking about illegal Canadian immigrants. You are not talking about illegal Chinese immigrants. You are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants.
No, they are talking about illegal immigrants. It's not Arizona's fault they don't border Canada, or China, or Russia, is it? Or do you want to pin that on them also?
Arizona borders Mexico. Arizona wants to enforce the laws of the United States of America - the laws the federal gov't. established, but won't enforce.
I see no harm in it. I get pulled over for something, I show my drivers license. They check it. It matches - address, name, ssn, etc. I'm fine. If I had a fake license, I go to jail. Why shouldn't they, charlie?
What the hell part of "illegal" do you not understand?????????????
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Also, if you want to talk about illegal "immigrants". You really should change the name of immigrant to what you really mean. You aren't talking about illegal Russian immigrants. You aren't talking about illegal Canadian immigrants. You are not talking about illegal Chinese immigrants. You are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants.
No, they are talking about illegal immigrants. It's not Arizona's fault they don't border Canada, or China, or Russia, is it? Or do you want to pin that on them also?
Arizona borders Mexico. Arizona wants to enforce the laws of the United States of America - the laws the federal gov't. established, but won't enforce.
I see no harm in it. I get pulled over for something, I show my drivers license. They check it. It matches - address, name, ssn, etc. I'm fine. If I had a fake license, I go to jail. Why shouldn't they, charlie?
What the hell part of "illegal" do you not understand?????????????
People just can't grasp that idea.. They want to make it look like the law is against only hispanics, but it's not. It's against illegal aliens. Of course, it will affect mostly hispanics just on the basis that there is a strong majority of them there. If it was mostly Canadians, then it would affect mostly Canadians but because of the border's proximity to South America, the majority of illegals in Arizona will be from there. You just cannot say.. "well this law will mostly affect Hispanics so we cannot have it.."
And of course, you then will only say we have to let them in for humanitarian reason, but at what point do you say no? At the point where we are just handing our country to Mexico?
What's the point of having borders if you are just letting everyone cross? What's the point of having a sovereign nation when you don't have any borders?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Maybe that's why I'm having such difficulty understanding this. I can't comprehend going out into the world without at least 1 official document proving who I am on my person.
Ok,I agree,but my point is that if an ID is a requirement then it is a requirement for everybody. It is not right for any American citizen to be treated differently just because of their race or heritage and I mean everyone.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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[Let me correctly answer your rhetorical question. Astoundingly YES, you may be required to carry your identification on you.
In Europe I was informed to keep my passport on me at all times. (Compared to India, Asia and the Philippines where I was informed to keep it locked in the hotel safe.)
OK but we are not talking about any of those places,we are talking about America,land of the free  .
So is there a law in Arizona that requires citizens to carry ID?
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Also, if you want to talk about illegal "immigrants". You really should change the name of immigrant to what you really mean. You aren't talking about illegal Russian immigrants. You aren't talking about illegal Canadian immigrants. You are not talking about illegal Chinese immigrants. You are talking about illegal Mexican immigrants.
Actually it's not Mexicans, it's latinos in general.. and as soon as we get to 20 million illegal Chinese or Russian immigrants, then they will be the topic but right now, the law is written for all but yes, it will be applied primarily to latinos.
There are many many laws regarding hunting in Colorado, do you know why nobody ever says the laws should be enforced on Penguin poachers? Because Penguins aren't a problem in Colorado... you make laws that are generally neutral and apply to everybody, even if you know the intent is to target a specific group of criminals..
yebat' Putin
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And, if you are in Europe and don't have your ID on you, you have the potential to be detained.
I find it rather interesting that you continuasly compare yourself walking around a country(well a continent) as a foreigner to American citizens of hispanic heritage walking around in the US. So are you trying to say that you think of them as foreigners?
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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We don't need congress, or votes, or that silly legislative process, we have Obama.  The rumors are apparently true…Obama considering amnesty by executive order July 29, 10:16 Obama planning to bypass Congress Getty ImagesNational Review has obtained an internal U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service memo which discusses ways the federal agency could bring about “meaningful immigration reform absent legislative action,” in other words, without ever taking a vote in Congress. The document reads: “This memorandum offers administrative relief options to . . . reduce the threat of removal for certain individuals present in the United States without authorization.” “In the absence of Comprehensive Immigration Reform, USCIS can extend benefits and/or protections to many individuals and groups by issuing new guidance and regulations, exercising discretion with regard to parole-in-place, deferred action and the issuance of Notices to Appear (NTA), and adopting significant process improvements.” The memo goes on to discuss using so-called “deferred action” to allow illegal aliens to stay in the country, legally, as well as extending the “grace period” for those whose visas have expired. Over a month ago, when the rumors began, several members of Congress wrote a letter to the White House, asking if the rumors of a de facto amnesty were true. They are yet to receive a response. A spokesman for Sen. Chuck Grassley recently told National Review: “Since the senators first wrote to the president more than a month ago, we have not been reassured that the plans are just rumors, and we have every reason to believe that the memo is legitimate.” Since the memo was discovered, DHS released a statement which frankly, is too long and too meaningless to repeat in its entirety here. It basically said that it was an internal exchange of ideas and nothing has been decided. However, there was one telling line at the end of the statement, which read: “To be clear, DHS will not grant deferred action or humanitarian parole to the nation’s entire illegal immigrant population.” So, what?...Obama will only grant amnesty to 7 million? 9 million? 10 million illegal aliens? As I have said before…We will be told that granting citizenship to such a large group of people at once will be a tremendous boost to our tax base, and end our exploding budget deficits. Of course, the vast majority of illegal aliens do not now, nor will they ever make enough money to even qualify for income taxes, they will simply join the 48 percent of Americans who currently pay nothing and our National Debt will continue to soar. The real reason Obama wants to grant amnesty to the mostly Hispanic population, is to secure the vote that they would then have as American citizens. Obama believes that doing so would assure Democratic control of the White House and Congress for the next several generations. web page
yebat' Putin
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OK but we are not talking about any of those places,we are talking about America,land of the free .
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But if you are in Europe you are a foreigner,many who are targeted by this law are not foreigners. They are American citizens.
KING
I think you are just trying to blindly make a point. Now it's been awhile since the police have had any interaction with me outside of driving but I seem to remember them asking me for my identification all the time.
Now because I am white that isn't racist(even if the cop wasn't white) but if they do it to Hispanics it apparently is racist. Doesn't that sound racist to you? Or is it simply attaching a 'bad' title to something someone doesn't like in an attempt to make it bad...what parts of the actual law are racist?
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Let's see...the people don't want it (again)...Congress won't approve it...but BO schemes to do it anyway. And some people wonder why I call him the "King". 
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Now because I am white that isn't racist(even if the cop wasn't white) but if they do it to Hispanics it apparently is racist. Doesn't that sound racist to you? Or is it simply attaching a 'bad' title to something someone doesn't like in an attempt to make it bad...what parts of the actual law are racist?
No, I am not rrying to say a cop asking for a ID is racist,or requiring everyone to have a ID is racist. I am saying only requiring people of a certain race or heritage to have a ID is discriminatory and racist.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I am saying only requiring people of a certain race or heritage to have a ID is discriminatory and racist.
And that's NOT the law.
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I am saying only requiring people of a certain race or heritage to have a ID is discriminatory and racist.
And that's NOT the law.
Ok if that is not how it works then I have no problem with it.
King
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I am saying only requiring people of a certain race or heritage to have a ID is discriminatory and racist.
And that's NOT the law.
Ok if that is not how it works then I have no problem with it.
King
I do think that has been made clear from day one. Some people apparently have chosen to not read what the law is/was, but rather flow to the "...it MIGHT....." side of it.
Every single American citizen needs to be able to prove they are a citizen, one way or another. My "papers" are my ss number and my drivers license. See, those match up, along with my address.
Any cop, anywhere in the u.s. can find that out.
It is NOT a bad thing. Anytime I'm pulled over, or at a party the cops bust, or if I'm causing a problem.......I have to show my i.d..........but I don't cry racism over that.
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Kingodawg, your comment actually touches on the solution that would completely eliminate the racial profiling aspect of checking ID's and speculating on citizenship. A national ID card that is only issued to legal citizens of the US and includes state of residency and legal driving status, etc. All citizens would be required to show this card for any contact with authorities, IRREGARDLESS, of skin color, thus when people are asked for their National ID card they cannot scream racial profiling. An extremely simple solution! Ironically, it is something the previous governor of Arizona supported. Oh yeah, she is now Secretary of Homeland Security, and has completely dropped the topic! Go figure... But the scary part of all of this to me is, why won't the governement issue a national ID card? Why won't they shutdown the border? Why won't they use the drug trafficing and human smuggling problem along the Mexico border as the excuse for sending the military to police the border? WHY? Why is the governement of the USA, THE USA , even listening to the whining of these corrupt politicians in Mexico? WHY? It is more than to get latino votes as a high percentage of latinos who are citizens of the USA agree that the US should shutdown the border and do something about illegal immigration. So WHY? WHAT is really going on?  Also, Charlie = Mac IMHO ...think about it
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I think you are kind of getting the point I am blindly trying to make KING
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Now because I am white that isn't racist(even if the cop wasn't white) but if they do it to Hispanics it apparently is racist. Doesn't that sound racist to you? Or is it simply attaching a 'bad' title to something someone doesn't like in an attempt to make it bad...what parts of the actual law are racist?
No, I am not rrying to say a cop asking for a ID is racist,or requiring everyone to have a ID is racist. I am saying only requiring people of a certain race or heritage to have a ID is discriminatory and racist.
KING
But the law doesn't do that it does the same thing every other law does...this isn't new. EVERYONE is subject to this law. If I was stopped for speeding in Arizona I may have to prove my citizenship...even being Caucasian as the law doesn't exempt me.
Last night my son was watching an episode of cops where two officers were at the airport. They said they were going to observe every single person disembarking from an inbound flight from Jamaica, pull people aside if they needed to for additional questioning and based by that pull their luggage if needed. One of the guys had odd answers to their questions and he was taken to a room with his luggage and they found cocaine hidden in a laptop bag. He was black.
Now that fits your "racist" defense perfectly. The law applies to everyone, citizens and non-citizens but the guy who was caught was a minority and non-citizen. If you ignore the fact that it applied to everyone, that the police investigated based on fact (drug smuggling from Jamaica vs illegal immigration in Arizona) and the only thing that condemned the 'racist victim' was that he was guilty and happened to be black. Now if the immigration law allows for the police to 'let go' all non-Hispanics caught the law would be 'racist'. But the fact that the most common perpetrators in the area happen to be X doesn't MAKE the law target them.
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actually touches on the solution that would completely eliminate the racial profiling aspect of checking ID's and speculating on citizenship. A national ID card that is only issued to legal citizens of the US and includes state of residency and legal driving status, etc. All citizens would be required to show this card for any contact with authorities, IRREGARDLESS, of skin color, thus when people are asked for their National ID card they cannot scream racial profiling. An extremely simple solution!
Thats not a simple solution, thats just adding more government bureaucracy which will lead to more wasteful spending and more paperwork pain in the rear for pretty much nothing.
We already have that in place anyways, its called a Drivers License and a SS card..the problem is we need to have regulations that make it much harder to get a driver license and to make it easier to verify it.
how bout having to take your birth certificate in when you get your license or get it renewed? That has to have the proper seal, signature, and verification on it...now illegals wouldn't have a valid birth certificate...problem solved.
this way when the cop sees your drivers license, he knows your here legally because you had to show a birth certificate to even get it in the first place.
there are very simple solutions to relatively very simple problems that the people on the hill make mountains out of mole hills.
As for Border security, the only way to secure the border is to build a 30-ft high electric fence with wanrings and signs in every language warning them of high voltage, with a few divisions of military behind it.....and only having a few gates in each state where people are checked to cross...
i don't understand why people think walls and fences are so taboo...the Great Wall of china served its purpose for years in keeping out invaders...they built walls in the middle ages to defend their borders...how about the romans and Hadrian's Walls anyone?
thats the only way to keep them out...sadly...that won't happen in my lifetime...
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Kingodawg, your comment actually touches on the solution that would completely eliminate the racial profiling aspect of checking ID's and speculating on citizenship. A national ID card that is only issued to legal citizens of the US and includes state of residency and legal driving status, etc. All citizens would be required to show this card for any contact with authorities, IRREGARDLESS, of skin color, thus when people are asked for their National ID card they cannot scream racial profiling. An extremely simple solution!
Ironically, it is something the previous governor of Arizona supported. Oh yeah, she is now Secretary of Homeland Security, and has completely dropped the topic! Go figure...
But the scary part of all of this to me is, why won't the governement issue a national ID card? Why won't they shutdown the border? Why won't they use the drug trafficing and human smuggling problem along the Mexico border as the excuse for sending the military to police the border? WHY? Why is the governement of the USA, THE USA , even listening to the whining of these corrupt politicians in Mexico? WHY?
It is more than to get latino votes as a high percentage of latinos who are citizens of the USA agree that the US should shutdown the border and do something about illegal immigration. So WHY? WHAT is really going on?
Also, Charlie = Mac IMHO ...think about it
It wouldn't surpise me at all if the Gov't lack of desire to address the issue is because they want to use the situation to push for a National ID card.... something I am still against, completely.
There is no need for it. This is the digital age, each state should be able to seamlessly interface with every other state to share information on identifications... there is absolutely zero need for the Feds to act as intermediary.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Kingodawg, your comment actually touches on the solution that would completely eliminate the racial profiling aspect of checking ID's and speculating on citizenship. A national ID card that is only issued to legal citizens of the US and includes state of residency and legal driving status, etc. All citizens would be required to show this card for any contact with authorities, IRREGARDLESS, of skin color, thus when people are asked for their National ID card they cannot scream racial profiling. An extremely simple solution!
Ironically, it is something the previous governor of Arizona supported. Oh yeah, she is now Secretary of Homeland Security, and has completely dropped the topic! Go figure...
But the scary part of all of this to me is, why won't the governement issue a national ID card? Why won't they shutdown the border? Why won't they use the drug trafficing and human smuggling problem along the Mexico border as the excuse for sending the military to police the border? WHY? Why is the governement of the USA, THE USA , even listening to the whining of these corrupt politicians in Mexico? WHY?
It is more than to get latino votes as a high percentage of latinos who are citizens of the USA agree that the US should shutdown the border and do something about illegal immigration. So WHY? WHAT is really going on?
Also, Charlie = Mac IMHO ...think about it
It wouldn't surpise me at all if the Gov't lack of desire to address the issue is because they want to use the situation to push for a National ID card.... something I am still against, completely.
There is no need for it. This is the digital age, each state should be able to seamlessly interface with every other state to share information on identifications... there is absolutely zero need for the Feds to act as intermediary.
There is a lot of states that already link to each other in regards to DL's... If you get a suspended licenses in one state, other states will uphold that suspension.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Legend
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Umm ...... yeah .... OK ...... I hate that they disrespected the flag ..... but they have that right. That is protected speech under the Constitution. I also noticed that they had about what .... 10 total protesters there ... and had to rely on a 6-8 year old to help carry a banner. I cannot think of a single group or movement that has gained massive support by desecrating the flag. These people seem to try to get into shout downs .. and stuff like this in order to try and spread their message ..... but it ultimately just makes them look foolish. There is very little support for this stuff among the population of this country. If you could ask these people what they would risk for their "cause", I bet it would be very little.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Umm ...... yeah .... OK ......
I hate that they disrespected the flag ..... but they have that right. That is protected speech under the Constitution.
I also noticed that they had about what .... 10 total protesters there ... and had to rely on a 6-8 year old to help carry a banner.
I cannot think of a single group or movement that has gained massive support by desecrating the flag. These people seem to try to get into shout downs .. and stuff like this in order to try and spread their message ..... but it ultimately just makes them look foolish.
There is very little support for this stuff among the population of this country. If you could ask these people what they would risk for their "cause", I bet it would be very little.
They do have the right to say what they want.. Just as I have the right to express my displeasure..  But then again, it looks like some of them are in the "No Borders" "One World Gov't" Movement.. notice the nice flag with the World on it? These are not your typical Anti-illegal-immigrant protesters.. otherwise you would typical be seeing more Mexican flags..
I really don't think a lot of the anti-illegal-immigrant crowd even care about the USA.. it's just what the USA can provide for them and they are kicking and screaming to keep illegal immigrants here and even wanting to grant them citizenship so they can get more things from the USA rather than being part of the USA... Their allegiance will never be with the USA, but it will always be 100% towards their home country. Not that having allegiance to their home country is bad, but having 100% allegiance to your home country but wanting to be an US citizen will never add up.. But then again, the way they protest may just be sending out that message even if they are not actually like that.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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