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ok, after much procrastination, I've decided it was time to gut/remodel my kitchen. This house is 110 years old and kitchen was last room i had to do. I ordered cabinets etc, just tore out everything down to studs, i found odd things behind the walls, a toilet brush circa 1965, a speaker not connected to anything, a bird subdivision. pretty nasty stuff...so anyways, the old cabinets were built into the house/floor. so now i have a 1/2" drop from the old floor where the cabinets were, easy enough, i can just fill in with plywood and fix the seams with wood filler. I was leaning towards some type of floating floor like laminate, but now I'm leaning towards just putting cement board over and going ahead and tile. So those of you who know or have done, would tile make more sense than laminate or hardwood? and would i do the whole room then put cabinets on over top or put cabinets down and the floor around. I know with laminate that you wouldn't want to put cabinets over it because of the need for it to move/expand. But for like tile/hardwood? thanks
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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My folks put laminate in their kitchen over 10 years ago and it's taken a huge beating and looks good. Problem is you have to be careful about dropping hard things on it, and make sure you don't leave standing water on it.
If it was me, i'd do tile since you have everything gutted anyway. Just make sure you level the floor or your tile floor will be falling apart in a year.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Legend
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I prefer tile in the kitchen.
That's just me though.
Yes, you should tile first and install the cabinets afterwards. It gives you a more even surface to work with, and also eliminates many, many cuts. (tile)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yeah thats why i'm leaning towards tile, because the subfloor is pretty even, and the kitchen dimensions are pretty square, it wouldn't take much to throw down some cement board, how thin can i get that? what would the cabinets anchor to with tile?
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Legend
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Your cabinets anchor to the studs in the wall.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yeah i was thinking that, but my old ones anchored into the subfloor.lol, man the way they used to build houses..lol i still can't believe i found a toilet brush behind the wall...ugh
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Cement board can be 3/8 or 1/2" IIRC.
If you have an older house, as it appears you do, take the time to find the floor joists and screw the floor boards down tightly to the joists. It will eliminate future squeekiness, and will give an even more stable base for the cement board and tile. (I ran some gorrila glue between the floor boards as well, and my formerly extremely squeeky bathroom floor is now as quiet as a mouse.) The fewer things that move at all, the better your final project will come out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yeah i was reading up on cement board and they say exactly what you mentioned. also using long stainless screws help as well
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Legend
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Quote:
yeah i was thinking that, but my old ones anchored into the subfloor.lol, man the way they used to build houses..lol i still can't believe i found a toilet brush behind the wall...ugh
Is your bathroom above the kitchen? (Likely in an older house)
It probably fell down during previous work in the bathroom.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Tile would look the best IMO. It takes an interesting setup to pull off wood flooring in a kitchen. Putting it on an angle usually looks nice too and helps break up the lines of the kitchen.
There are no sacred cows.
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Sounds like a baloon framed home, if the toilet brush fell from the bath above. You might want to put a few 2x4 firebreaks between the wall studs a cceiling level.
I also suggest runing a 2x8 band board around the wall to anchor your cabinets to, sometimes they don't line up just right to hit the studs.
As for the floor, I'd go with tile. I think it's easier to keep looking good and handles the wet and greasy conditions in a kitchen better. Hardwood would be my second choice, I personally don't like the laminate floors.
My parents have them all through their house. They won't let anyone go barefoot because it leaves footprints and they're hard to clean LOL!
Good luck with it.
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appreciate all the help guys, i think i'm gonna go with tile, its something i can count on being easy to care for and looks good with jsut about anything. what's this band board you speak of? just a 2x8 that goes along the bottom horizontal to the studs?
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Quote:
so now i have a 1/2" drop from the old floor where the cabinets were, easy enough, i can just fill in with plywood and fix the seams with wood filler.
Hmmmm. My thoughts: Wood filler does not go between seams in a floor. Wood filler is designed to cover nail/screw holes in either casing or moulding. - No reason to start talking about wood filler here man - it has no place on a floor.
Now, suppose you put plywood down to get one big, even floor, and you miscut the plywood, and have a large seam, then you can start looking at floor-leveling compounds that are designed to fill in gaps between wood - lots of good cement-based products out there that are designed for your project and will adhere forever.
Taking this a step further: It sounds like you are concerned with getting a sturdy subfloor, hence you're concern about seams. What you can do: Take a measurement of the area that the old cabinets used to cover. - Measure it a few times, then make a template of the shape (use paper or whater you prefer to outline the exact shape of the area that the old cabinets used to cover) then measure the depth. - In this case probably about a half-inch or so.
Get a peice of plywood, or OSB that matches or comes close to the thickness that you need. (OSB is rated for this purpose and will pass any building codes you have, don't listen to anybody that tells you otherwise)
-Secure the plywood or OSB to your floor using deck screws.
- Now, if you plan on tiling, what you should do is secure 1/2" hardibacker panels to your floor. For the hardibacker, you should thinset over the plywood, then lay the hardibacker, then screw the hardibacker into the plywood. - All of this minimizes movement of the hardibacker, which decreases the chance of your tile cracking. Then, thinset and mesh-tape the seams of the hardibacker, and lay your tile. - Make sure that your lines are square befor you lay your tile, otherwise you end up with the last couple rows of tiles looking like complete garbage.
You wrote: Quote:
I was leaning towards some type of floating floor like laminate
Although it looks great, I don't recommend any sort of floating floor in a room where water is an issue. - Essentially, you should not put a floating floor in a kitchen or a bathroom. - It's far too easy for water to get in between the seams, which will result in mold and buckling. However, there are several vinyl-plank floors available that can be laid in your kitchen. Check out the "allure" line. - Back to your original question. If you decide to go with vinyl plank flooring and want to get a level subfloor. Again, fasten a peice of plywood or OSB to get an even surface, then instead of using hardibacker, get a product called sturdifloor. - It's a 1/4 plywood like sheathing that is designed to serve as a subfloor. - It comes in 4 x 8 sheets, just like plywood. Many people use "Luan" or "utility plywood" but for warranty's sake, use sturdifloor. After you screw down your sturdifloor, all you have to do is lay the vinyl plank on top of it. - Much easier than tile bro.
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actually i know exactly what you are talking about, wood filler was a bad choice of words, it is a floor leveling compound, i bought some when i did something similar for my breakfast nook. I tore out the booth seats and was left with a similar drop, i cut 1/2 plywood as close to fit as i could, then used the leveling compound to fill in. and i agree with the laminate the more i hear, def. going with tile now
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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I've had both hardwood, Laminate and Tile.. I'll take tile in the kitchen everytime. Just a preference... I didn't have any issues with any of the three, but tile was easier to clean and took a beating better.
I was watching Holmes on Holmes the other day. They put down a cement board, then some kinda leveling compound then some kinda membrane, I think it was made of rubber. (orange in color with like a honeycomb pattern)
On top of that, thinset and then tile.
The idea, according to Holmes, for putting the underlayment down was to keep the floor from cracking.
I'm not sure that all has to be done, but it's something to ask Lowes or Home Depot about.
toilet brush in the wall,, WOW..
Good luck and congrats on the new kitchen..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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If you are going to put down tile, use perma base as your underlayment
This can be found at Home Depot.
Cover the seems with a product called Red Guard, this is a crack suppresent/waterproofing that can also be found at home depot.
Make sure you cove all the screws with the Red Guard also , this will help keep them from pulling out. 1 gal will be more than enough and you brush it on with a cheap brush. Use a higher end thinset and, I always use a 1/2 in notch trowell to provide max bonding.
Hardibacker has too much paper product in it for my liking, and perma base is cement board,
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tile or laminate is purely a personal preferance choice. I read some responses that are good. You need to put the base cabinets in before the flooring then run the flooring up to them. Just make sure you consider the height. You might need to shim up the cabinets if you are going with a floating laminate flooring (which can be thick) otherwise that space under the cabinets is going to be too small and look stupid. I agree with ytown, while you have this apart, screw the heck out of your subfloor, put blocking in to make hanging your upper cabinets easier or us a "z" clip, which I always liked.. that's all I can think of for now. good luck. 
yebat' Putin
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I'd love to offer an opinion, but the only "flooring" work I have done is laying vinyl in a laundry room, and pulling up a ruined carpet in a rental I had and finding a wood floor that only needed sanding and staining and a finish coat. In other words, I'm reading and learning.
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I forgot to mention, the product Damon is talking about sounds like a product called Detra. It's made by schlutter and can be bought at Depot. It's pricey though but a good product. It can be put on top of plywood and then the tile would go on top of that.
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Quote:
ok, after much procrastination, I've decided it was time to gut/remodel my kitchen. This house is 110 years old and kitchen was last room i had(to do. I ordered cabinets etc, just tore out everything down to studs, i found odd things behind the walls, a toilet brush circa 1965, a speaker not connected to anything, a bird subdivision. pretty nasty stuff...so anyways, the old cabinets were built into the house/floor. so now i have a 1/2" drop from the old floor where the cabinets were, easy enough, i can just fill in with plywood and fix the seams with wood filler. I was leaning towards some type of floating floor like laminate, but now I'm leaning towards just putting cement board over and going ahead and tile. So those of you who know or have done, would tile make more sense than laminate or hardwood? and would i do the whole room then put cabinets on over top or put cabinets down and the floor around. I know with laminate that you wouldn't want to put cabinets over it because of the need for it to move/expand. But for like tile/hardwood? thanks
Lead...There is only ONE answer to this...
NEVER...And I mean NEVER...Never install ANY type of flooring around kitchen cabinets or fixtures in a bathroom...NEVER...
Why???
10 years from now when new cabinets or fixtures are needed...If there are different sizes installed u will have GAPS and NEVER be able to match the existing flooring...
ALWAYS tile or floor the entire area UNDER all cabinets or fixtures...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Why???
10 years from now when new cabinets or fixtures are needed...If there are different sizes installed u will have GAPS and NEVER be able to match the existing flooring...
ALWAYS tile or floor the entire area UNDER all cabinets or fixtures...
As someone that has had to deal with the exact problem described and had to destroy a perfectly hardwood floor when installing new kitchen cabinets in order to make it all match up and look right, I agree,..
Whatever material you end up using,, do the WHOLE floor before installing base cabinets..
Not for nothing, but there is even another benefit,, you same on cutting tiles or hardwood flooring around things and hoping you get a good fit..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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that's a really good tip, I never thought of that.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Quote:
appreciate all the help guys, i think i'm gonna go with tile, its something i can count on being easy to care for and looks good with jsut about anything. what's this band board you speak of? just a 2x8 that goes along the bottom horizontal to the studs?
No. The band board can either be blocks run horizontal between the studs or notch the styuds and screw in a solid 2x8 horizontally behind the cabinets at he top of the base units. Then when installing you anchor with screws into the band board.
Some use plywood for this. Just makes it easier.
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But if you change flooring before you change cabinets now its under the cabinets and can sometimes be nearly impossible to get out. There is no right and wrong on this issue. Just a lot of factors to weight in.
1. Floating engineered flooring cant go under cabinets.
2. Tile looks much cleaner when it goes under, but if you ever have to change it you will spend as much time getting that last tile row out from under the cabinets as it takes to rip the whoe rest of the floor. Same goes for hardwood.
3. Vinyl goes around only, no reason at all except for ease of install to go under
4. Goin under with hardwood saves having finish nails in the surface for the last few rows if the wood was being installed towards cabinetry, but if its running away from them during the install there is no real reason to go under.
Your floor will probably be changed 3 times b4 you would ever think about changin cabinets again. And new cabinets arent likely to get smaller, it really only becomes an issue if you rearrange where things are at.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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I may be a bit late to the conversation but here are my thoughts.
Tile will last longer and will not be harmed by the water that happens in the kitchen.
If your floor is above the basement that is a good thing, the one bad thing about tile is that it will be cooler if placed on a concrete slab.
When looking at tile, make sure that it has some surface texture. If it is glossy or smooth, it will be very slick when wet. I prefer a porcelin tile. Do not use a travertine or other porous or natural tile, as it will get stained and show traffic patterns. Forget marble or granite for a kitchen floor. Aside from the cost, it would be like a skating rink. Slate is ok for a kitchen. Granite makes a neat offset tile if you want to add some color to the floor. Bigger tiles 16 or 18 inch are ok in a larger area, 12 or 13 inch should be fine for a smaller area. Resist the temptation to use 2 or 4 inch meshed squares, it has become dated.
I prefer a darker grout, and thinner lines. 1/4, 5/16" or 3/8" maximum. Grout shows dirt more readily if cleaned and sealed on a regular basis. Rent a good tile cutter with a sharp blade, or if there are only a few cuts, get them done at the store you bought the tile from.
We have a neat 6 x 18 inch wood grained tile in our kitchen. It looks fabulous and resolved the matching issue between an ajoining area. It looks like a wood floor from a distance.
Think about a diamond or offset pattern if it makes sense to help break the lines. Consider the edge transitions to other ares.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
the one bad thing about tile is that it will be cooler if placed on a concrete slab.
Two strategies to use here:
Use a single layer of cork underlayment on top of the slap, under your thinset. Use some spray adhesive to hold it in place while you work.
SunTouch under-floor warming mats. They'll hit your electric bill a bit, but oh man, are they ever nice to walk on. I put one in my kitchen floor, and I'm on a slab, and it is a dream to walk on warm tile  I'll gladly pay the extra $15/month that it costs me in winter to keep my floor at 70 degrees.
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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I wouldnt recomend cork .
It leaves the tile unstable with too much deflection.
After you complete a cork laid job, tap on the tile, they sound hollow.
Also if one were to break, it's a lot harder to change that tile.
I would use the Detra underlayment before I would use cork.
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Deflection issues even on a slab?
Browns is the Browns
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came back to this thread and alot more good info I appreciate it all, and yes purp, I already had it in my mind that if i go tile, the warmers are a must!. So I have decided on tile, its a small 10x10 kitchen with a 6x6 breakfast nook off it also that I will obviously tile as well. So the next question 6, 12 or 18in tiles. Also, if anyone near Bellevue and want to make some $$ installing, I'm going to pay someone probably anyways..lol.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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To some extent, yes.Also changes in tempeture cause expansion and contraction.
cork is a soft material that was used more as a sound barrier years ago.
There have been strides made in R&D over the years.
I just got done fixing 30 condos that had cork, and the tiles were cracked from vibration that occured from other work that was done.
Last edited by hurricaned; 08/01/10 07:33 PM.
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The 18s are what I use most of the time, they look good and make cleaning easier, less grout joint. Also running on a diagonal really takes some of the squareness out of the vision field.
When cleaning use white vinegar and water, the cleaners they advertise tend to eat the grout and after a while you joints will look low and dingy
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Just an fyi,, Cork will also deteriorate over time.. It can get punky...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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well, I merely recommended it because the floor warmer company recommended it as a thermal barrier between the slab and your thinset when installing the warmer. That way, the energy is going more toward warming the tile and not so much toward warming the slab as well. It's like 3/32 underlayment. For tile, I did 12's & 6's in a pinwheel pattern... it turned out pretty nice: pic (pre-grout picture)
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That looks great man. - Looks like a pro did it. That couldn't have been easy considering that you were working with a pattern that included different sized tile. - What did you do along the edges to ensure that you stayed square?
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Nothing. I eyeballed it all.
I tiled the entire field of un-cut tiles first, then I came back the 2nd day and did all 170+ cut pieces.
Thank you for the compliment, too... I'm certainly not a professional, but I do think that it is one of the nicest floors I've done.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Okay - so, a few weeks ago my wife was looking at carpet for the dining room and vinyl for the kitchen - re doing both rooms. My daughter and I were gone last week - got back late friday night. My wife informed me today that "they" were coming tomorrow morning to tear up the kitchen vinyl and dining room carpet and putting new in. I guess I can't give any opinions on how to do it since we'll be paying "them" to do it for us.
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gotta love that..luckily i do all the tearing out while my wife is at work and has a chance to object, like last weekend she left with an intact kitchen, she returned from work to a kitchen stripped to the studs..lol man 1 woman 0
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Quote:
yeah i was thinking that, but my old ones anchored into the subfloor.lol, man the way they used to build houses..lol i still can't believe i found a toilet brush behind the wall...ugh
I hid a lot of stuff inside walls when I hung drywall for a living. Nothing nasty or irrgeular; mostly newspapers for someone to find 100 years from now and of course I wrote a lot of derogatory things about the Squeelers.... 
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Quote:
Quote:
NEVER...And I mean NEVER...Never install ANY type of flooring around kitchen cabinets or fixtures in a bathroom...NEVER...
Why???
10 years from now when new cabinets or fixtures are needed...If there are different sizes installed u will have GAPS and NEVER be able to match the existing flooring...
ALWAYS tile or floor the entire area UNDER all cabinets or fixtures...
Absolutely, Not sure why DC said to tile or laminate up to the cabinits but my Buddy did this a few years ago and last year when his dishwasher quit we had to just about tear down his house to get it out. I'mjust sayin.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Dammit dawgtalkers, you have me freaked out.
I'm going to be installing engineered hardwood throughout a condo me and the gf bought. I was all set to do the whole thing and then I read this and now I'm paranoid.
At the end of the day, I'm still going to lay the floor first but all cabinetry will be on legs to allow the floor to expand and contract easier.
I think....
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Flooring help
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