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Dawg Talker
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Do you see any of the irony in your post here? Once again - it makes you appear ignorant.
That's all this is - a pissing contest.
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Legend
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In reading your comment, I find it ironic that enforcing one 5 block radius is unfair ...... while another is perfectly OK.
I wonder ... does fairness have make up rules?
This has been a long debated aspect of rulings like affirmative action ..... and it has been debated on both sides. People excuse the behavior of one side because it's fair/unfair ..... while the other side does the same.
This is not a new tactic.
Muslims get a break in Detroit .... so we should make up for that in New York. We have to "even the score".
Why can't we all work to get along instead of working to pull our union apart?
Because it's "not fair"?
Many aspects of life are unfair. Just because 1 person or small group receives preferential treatment in one area of the country doesn't mean that we should "pay them back" in another.
A Black woman who earns her way to the top of a company should not be forced to give up her position because someone else unfairly received a promotion because he or she was black or female.
What is fair? Is it fair to treat one group with distain because someone like them reveived some benefit elsewhere?
As far as the group outside of the Muslim festival ..... if we are being honest .... they were not there trying to do some good work for God .... they were there in a political undertaking trying to incite trouble.
I honestly cannot remember the last time a Mosque protested outside of a Catholic festival trying to get people to convert ......
I can only imagine the reaction should such a thing take place.
I doubt that it would be as tame as police moving people back ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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I missed that part. Can you show it to me? Quote the post that said that? Thanks in advance. I just missed it.
No, I already have addressed it. You can't find it? Put on some glasses. Dearborn Festival, the Pastor mentioned above that was arrested for "Preaching" to Muslims. More like Christians provoking Muslims.
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I believe a better quote would be you can't stand Christianity. But, you still attend church - according to what you said in a different thread.
Ah. And muslims don't do that, do they? And further more, this isn't about christians antagonizing muslims. Not at all.
What I said is I haven't been to a church since I was a kid. Aside form the ocassional funeral, I haven't been to church. I have no interest in attending Church. I will not attend church. How is this for size, if the Christian god existed he would strike me down with a bolt of lightning as soon as I entered a church because I am such a "sinner" and "heathen".
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Wow. I must have missed alot. Who said muslims can't have a mosque? I missed that. Thanks for showing me the quote about that.
You haven't paid any attention obviously. New York, Tennessee, Florida, California, Wisconsin, and Michigan have all had Mosques or Community Center protests. Most of the constructions have been put on hold due to the protests.
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You just showed your true colors. As you have in other threads where you recommend socialism.
Radical Christianity is the only christianity there is??????????
Yep, that is the only kind that exists here. It is funny, the only non-radical Christians that actually are defending Muslims is - the Papacy! That is a RIOT. Who thought they would see the day that the Pope actually would support Muslims. But, here in America, we won't have none of that. Because we like to make em' squeel like a pig (Deliverance reference).
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Yet only a "few" muslims are radical.
Yes, a few Muslims are.
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Muslims should be allowed to incite Christians, but christians can't incite muslims. Got it.
No, what we have have here are Christians inciting Muslims, which according to Christians is ok because they are inciting Muslims.
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Muslims can swear to kill Americans and that's fine, but christians can't say anything about muslims.
When somebody provokes another religion. When one purposely incites them to hatred. Violence is something to be expected. If I went into a church and crapped on the Altar there. I would expect to get my ass kicked. Heck, I'd expect a few broken ribs at least. Yet, Christians claim they are being persecuted because they are met with violence when they do the equivalent to another religion.
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Exactly, glad you finally see the truth. Christians going off and provoking Muslims is not a good idea and as you said, "how they handle it makes all the difference in the world."
Yep, I finally see the truth. Haven't changed at all, but apparently I finally do. Thanks buddy.
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Al-Qaeda doesn't need propaganda. You are doing it for them.
I'm not familiar with these Al-Qaeda guys Charlie, did they burn some books or hand out leaflets somewhere? Can I find out about them on the Internet??
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It is really clear to everyone, aside from Christians who think too highly of themselves and their "peaceful ways". "Peaceful" ways like denying Muslims the right to worship, peaceful ways like declaring that Muslims need to be mass-murdered (in the other thread), peaceful ways like protesting Mosques in Tennessee, Wisconsin, California, Florida, and Michigan.
Well if we are going to discuss such "Peaceful extremists" should we discuss whipping women for having their ankles uncovered in public? Do we hold that against all Muslims like you seem to imply by your actions with Christians? Do we discuss the public stoning of women ACCUSED of sex outside of marriage? Should we infer that all Muslims support this...as you do with Christians?
Or Charlie do you finally realize that Charlie has a problem...that Charlie likes to ignore facts and make things up. Charlie probably doesn't know what he is talking about sometimes?
Would you like to hear about REAL Muslims Charlie?? Let me tell you my own personal experiences so you understand where I am coming from...
In India ALL the Muslims I met are fantastic hosts and very friendly. When shopping in the Muslim sections they invite you in for a seat to rest from the heat and offer you cold drinks...even if they know you are simply 'window shopping'. Being a "host" is very important to them and they will bend over backwards to make you comfortable. Oh, they will do whatever they can to find what you want as well. 
http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s113/Chastaen/Textiles/?action=view¤t=P5250047.jpg
Mahmud runs a small drapery store in the area where all the Muslim shops are. Those were the ones he made for my living room, but they are packed away now since we repainted  He also invited me to the Military Masjid (a mosque) to see the inside however I didn't have the free time to go. But shopping in the Muslim quarter was great, although a little eerie as an American when the call to prayer went out.
In Morocco I was tightly controlled and did not have the freedoms as in India. My "driver" did not feel it wise to take me out to many places, but I did not have a lot of free time either.
In the Philippines I did not go to Mindanao, mainly because it wasn't safe. Even on Bohol and Cebu you were at risk from kidnapping or bombings from people from the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. But that is something the Pinoy face in the Philippines, sadly.
No matter where you go in the world, you should hold people responsible for their actions Charlie. Not what "they all" do...but what he and she does. I think 'mainstream' Muslims are botching this badly, as they had seemed to be very quiet about their 'extremist' element but very vocal at anything that was directed at them. Much like it would be for me to hush hush about the radicals in Florida but then get loud and indignant at someone talking bad about Americans. The problem is both sides have extremists that everyone has to cope with, but it is how the non-extremists mainstream act that should be a more lasting impression.
Now I know I don't want to be associated with radical Americans, so I would assume mainstream Muslims wouldn't want to be associated with radicals either. Which makes Dearborn and Kansas more troubling for me. These aren't the actions of radicals...and they aren't the actions of the Muslims that I know and are friends with. So what is it we face?
To finish up my epic novel Charlie, I want to leave you with my words earlier that you willingly overlooked in your rush to paint everyone that disagreed with you as a radical Christian.
Do Muslims have a right to build where they want in our country? Sure, even if it enrages people.
Do Americans have a right to burn the Quran...or any book for that matter? Sure, even if it enrages people.
I do not have to like or agree with either of them...even though they both are Constitutionally protected.
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Legend
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Is this Trump looking for press? Absolutely. But the offer was made. And the mosque people refused. Why would they refuse?
My guess is that it's because the property's already purchased. As I understand it, all Trump is offering is a buyout at 25% profit, so long as they move 5 more blocks away. He's not guaranteeing that they'll be able to find a suitable place, or that he'll help them relocate. All he's offering them is a chance to make some money, with no assurance that they'll even HAVE a new home.
1. What if real estate developers get gun-shy about selling them property because of all the press THATwould generate for them... ("selling to those ragheads...? the nerve! Let's run their 'anti-Amercan' asses out of business!")
2. Suppose they do take the offer... and some real estate developer DOES sell them some property 7 blocks away. What's to keep Bill Gates or Rupert Murdoch or some other well-heeled megabillionaire from deciding that 7 blocks is too close?
7 miles?
7 area codes?
seven state lines?
What's to stop an endless succession of rich people, companies, and consortiums to continually buy them away from NYC?
You see arch... there will NEVER be consensus about this, because there will always be someone who simply doesn't want them ANYWHERE. I just finished responding to a poster in another thread... someone whom I've always respected, who said to kill them all. Annd he meant it. Do you think that even 700 MILES will be good enough for someone who feels this way?
As DC put it in the locked thread: "how far away is far enough?"
I may not have said it in the other thread, but my stance on this issue is as follows: as long as there isn't a movement to place it ON the site of Ground Zero, it's just another piece of real estate. The minute we start getting pissy about proximity, we begin down a slippery slope of relativism... and that won't do anyone any good. Besides, all distance is relative. NYC and LA are a flyspeck apart, if you're viewing the Earth from the Moon.
How close is too close? How far away is far enough?
This one strikes a little close to me, arch. For too many years, members of my family were victims of red-lining practices... and it's just plain wrong. For whatever reason, folks shouldn't be forced to bow to pressure about where they set down roots. If they can pay, they should be able to own. "Liberty and justice for some" just doesn't sound like the America I was raised to love. Sometimes, more money really isn't the point.
just another p.o.v.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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In reading your comment, I find it ironic that enforcing one 5 block radius is unfair ...... while another is perfectly OK.
I wonder ... does fairness have make up rules?
This has been a long debated aspect of rulings like affirmative action ..... and it has been debated on both sides. People excuse the behavior of one side because it's fair/unfair ..... while the other side does the same.
This is not a new tactic.
Muslims get a break in Detroit .... so we should make up for that in New York. We have to "even the score".
Not really sure what you are aiming for, sorry. Our laws are blind to color,race and religion. What happened in Dearborn is against the law and should not happen to anyone else anywhere. That includes Muslims.
As I said earlier both the Muslims in New York(and elsewhere) and the church in Florida have something in common. They both have the 'right' to do what they are doing in America. However I believe both should realize the implications and acknowledge that though they have a right they also have a choice and they are sympathetic to reasonable people's thoughts.
While the mosque can be built where it is wanted, maybe it should relocate out of respect for those that feel it would be bad so close to the 9/11 site. It is a compromise...While I support the Cultural Center that has been described I think the Imam's unwillingness to bend so far has seemed problematic. He certainly has the right, however will enforcing that right ruin the purpose of the building?
And the Florida group...they can burn the books. It is offensive, like I said earlier I liken it to the people that try and offend Americans by desecrating our flag. They have that right I guess...but they should also realize that they are doing more harm than good. They should realize that their best course of action is to bend as well. ANd not in a stupid 'Move the mosque and Ill stop" but in a "I will respect you as I want to be respected".
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Legend
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While the mosque can be built where it is wanted, maybe it should relocate out of respect for those that feel it would be bad so close to the 9/11 site.
Why?
This is such a sacred area that there are strip joints galore.
Cannot you see the irony that strip joints are OK ..... but Muslims ..... nope ... can't have them here on this sacred land across from the strip joint and next to the massage parlor ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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Would you like to hear about REAL Muslims Charlie?? Let me tell you my own personal experiences so you understand where I am coming from...
I don't need to hear about your "real" Muslims. Because I know "real" Muslims. One of my friends, a girl, is from a Muslim family. She, herself, is not Muslim. Her family immigrated here from Iran prior to the Revolution.
Her family isn't strapping bombs to their chests. At the local college a well known Muslim family (very wealthy) was honored by having a building named after them. They are major contributors to the community. They aren't strapping bombs to their chests.
Yet, here you and many others label them as "terrorists" and "outsiders" because they are Muslim or come from Persian or Arab backgrounds.
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The problem is both sides have extremists that everyone has to cope with
Some sides have more extremists. Especially with the Tea Party running around. Making proclamations such as:
"This is a Christian nation"
"No Mosques"
"Rag-head"
"Un-American"
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Do Muslims have a right to build where they want in our country?
Muslims should have the right to build their religous temples in this country. The problem is, people are enraged because they are building them too close to New York city. Florida is too close to New York city. Tennessee is too close to New York City. California is too close to New York City. Michigan is too close to New York City. WIsconsin is too close to New York City. New York City is New York City, so you can't have any there. So, let me ask. If they can't build Mosques in New York, California, Florida, Tennessee, Wisconsin, or even Michigan. Where the hell can they build?
This country has shifted too far to the right. The only thing that the ultra-right will tolerate is radical Christianity. These extremists need to be stopped and put in their place. This country is supposed to have all these freedoms. Yet, these radicals want to stamp them all out.
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Do Americans have a right to burn the Quran...or any book for that matter?
No, there are laws against it. Fire has a tendency to spread. There are fire ordinances in every city in this country, You have to have a permit. This "Pastor" does not have a permit.
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just another p.o.v.
Clem I think Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf is a very reasonable man and in a great position for Muslims and Americans alike. What I would hope to see is a COMPROMISE that acknowledges that both sides have to give and take in order to make things work. One problem is having an American with enough *something* to bring the American people in line, while the Imam works with the Muslims. It can't be a "We built it" or a "You moved it" though because that will further agitate one side or the other.
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While the mosque can be built where it is wanted, maybe it should relocate out of respect for those that feel it would be bad so close to the 9/11 site.
Why?
This is such a sacred area that there are strip joints galore.
Cannot you see the irony that strip joints are OK ..... but Muslims ..... nope ... can't have them here on this sacred land across from the strip joint and next to the massage parlor ......
Sacred infers religious. There is nothing 'religious' about the site to my knowledge. For many the site is where thousands died in the name of Islam, so an Islamic mosque seems a bit much to some people. It would be similar to wanting to move a building to slaughter cows next to a Hindi temple. Not really wrong, but a bit insensitive.
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I don't need to hear about your "real" Muslims. Because I know "real" Muslims. One of my friends, a girl, is from a Muslim family. She, herself, is not Muslim. Her family immigrated here from Iran prior to the Revolution.
Is a real Muslim a person who isn't Muslim but her family is? Or do you mean you know her family too.
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Yet, here you and many others label them as "terrorists" and "outsiders" because they are Muslim or come from Persian or Arab backgrounds.
You know Charlie I keep watching you make up things that people say...you do realize that it makes it look like you have no valid point so just decide to lie, right? Can you back up your words that I said this? Now...would you like people to make up things and say you said it? You are just as bad as the extremists on both sides...you will fight an imaginary enemy if the real one isnt around.
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This country is supposed to have all these freedoms. Yet, these radicals want to stamp them all out.
Again are you discussing the Christians for passing out leaflets on public property or just wanting to ignore that because it doesn't make your preconceived ideas look good?
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No, there are laws against it. Fire has a tendency to spread. There are fire ordinances in every city in this country, You have to have a permit. This "Pastor" does not have a permit.
Ah what is the ordinance in his area that he is violation of Charlie? Is it the one labeled "Fire Ordinance"? Believe it or not Charlie the guy has a Constitutional right to do it...unknown "Fire Ordinance" or not. Come on buddy, I give you word for word the First Amendment that guarantees these people (Christian and Muslim!) can hand out leaflets and the best you can do is pray to your Non-God that their is a fire ordinance that won't let the guy burn books?
Edit: Charlie is right, the Fire Department refuses to grant him a permit. Although the funny thing about that article Charlie is the list of people against him burning the book... No permit for joo!!
Last edited by LexDawg; 09/09/10 11:43 PM.
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Dawg Talker
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Sacred infers religious. There is nothing 'religious' about the site to my knowledge. For many the site is where thousands died in the name of Islam, so an Islamic mosque seems a bit much to some people. It would be similar to wanting to move a building to slaughter cows next to a Hindi temple. Not really wrong, but a bit insensitive.
That is not a good equivalent.
Islam did not attack the World Trade Center Towers. Al-Qaeda attacked the World Trade Center. Being against a Mosque in New York because Al-Qaeda attacked the US would be the same as not allowing a Jewish Synagogue in Jerusalem because that is where Jesus was crucified. Jerusalem is full of Synagogues. You see some Christians hating Jews and blaming them for Jesus' death. Mel Gibson is in the news a lot because he blames them for the death of Jesus.
Yet, do you see mass anti-semitism in the United States because of that? No. You see Anti-Semitism but that is not tolerated by mainstream society.
Now, if you want to have something that is similar to the analogy you have. Something that would REALLY defile New York. Put a Giant picture of Osama Bin Laden up and write "He was right". That is defaming 9/11 and all the people that died there. That is wrong. But, that is not what is happening. What is happening is people are angry because ... Muslims are in New York City and Al-Qaeda happens to be made up of Muslim extremists.
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Legend
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Want to know what really offends me about the WTC site?
That here it is almost 9 years later and NOTHING has been done there. Nothing.
This should have been a huge priority .... it should have been rebuilt using whatever manpower was necessary.
The Towers should have been rebuilt by now ..... bigger, stronger, taller, and prouder than ever.
For it to be almost a decade later and to have nothing accomplished is disgusting.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sacred infers religious. There is nothing 'religious' about the site to my knowledge. For many the site is where thousands died in the name of Islam, so an Islamic mosque seems a bit much to some people. It would be similar to wanting to move a building to slaughter cows next to a Hindi temple. Not really wrong, but a bit insensitive.
That is not a good equivalent.
Islam did not attack the World Trade Center Towers. Al-Qaeda attacked the World Trade Center.
I left my original quote in this time Charlie, it is for a reason. What did I say Charlie? Did I say those innocent people were killed by Islam? Or did I say they were killed in the name of Islam? Do you know the difference Charlie?
Notice how you differentiate in this instance Charlie, but cannot with the burning of the Quran? You know who is against the book burning Charlie? The Pope is the head of the Catholic church, his word is Church law. He says it is bad to burn the Quran. Several political and church leaders have said it is a bad idea Charlie.
And I found out that John Boehner echoed what I said..."Well, listen, I just think it's not wise to do this in the face of what our country represents. ... Just because you have the right to do something in America, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."
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Dawg Talker
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Want to know what really offends me about the WTC site?
That here it is almost 9 years later and NOTHING has been done there. Nothing.
This should have been a huge priority .... it should have been rebuilt using whatever manpower was necessary.
The Towers should have been rebuilt by now ..... bigger, stronger, taller, and prouder than ever.
For it to be almost a decade later and to have nothing accomplished is disgusting.
Remember people fighting over what should happen there? That is why nothing is there. Because for years they debated what they should and should not build there. There was even a panel of judges determining what "memorial" would be right.
The planning process is what caused it to take this long.
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Want to know what really offends me about the WTC site?
That here it is almost 9 years later and NOTHING has been done there. Nothing.
This should have been a huge priority .... it should have been rebuilt using whatever manpower was necessary.
The Towers should have been rebuilt by now ..... bigger, stronger, taller, and prouder than ever.
For it to be almost a decade later and to have nothing accomplished is disgusting.
I would've liked a park personally. Somewhere everyone could go without any outside forces telling them what they should or should not feel while there.
Hell, I would be all for the Cultural Center to be built on the exact same spot...if it could be done by both groups together that sent a message to everyone. But the way it is happening now is unfair to everyone I think...
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Legend
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They should have built it in the same footprint ...... the same style ..... stronger and 10 floors taller.
Changing the style and making it a pair of smaller buildings defeats the purpose of rebuilding it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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Notice how you differentiate in this instance Charlie, but cannot with the burning of the Quran? You know who is against the book burning Charlie? The Pope is the head of the Catholic church, his word is Church law. He says it is bad to burn the Quran. Several political and church leaders have said it is a bad idea Charlie.
I know, I said that. Remember how I said that the only Christians defending the muslims are - the Papacy. The Papacy is Vatican City and the Pope. Basically the Papal States from the Medieval Period in city form.
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And I found out that John Boehner echoed what I said..."Well, listen, I just think it's not wise to do this in the face of what our country represents. ... Just because you have the right to do something in America, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."
You should include what else Boehner said:
"To Pastor Jones and those who want to build the mosque: Just because you have a right to do something in America doesn't mean it is the right thing to do,"
After being asked if that means the Pastor should not burn the Quran (by George Stephanopolous) his response was:
"Well, listen, I just think it's not wise to do this in the face of what our country really represents."
So, simply "it is not wise" for him to burn the Quran. But, he won't stop him. But, he firmly wants to stop the Community Center.
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I know, I said that. Remember how I said that the only Christians defending the muslims are - the Papacy. The Papacy is Vatican City and the Pope. Basically the Papal States from the Medieval Period in city form.
Not too up on my Christian sub-guilds...but doesn't the Pope's word supposedly carry to a hell of a lot of people? Apparently it has the third highest amount of parishes in the US..but with at least 4 times the people of the biggest 2. A bit more than Vatican City and the Pope...
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You should include what else Boehner said:
I don't brush up on Boehner, just saw the quote
here.
But as the last funny bomb of the night...both sides seem to have their extremists. They ignore everything wrong about "their" side and scream and kick about anything the other side does. Which re-reading this thread seems to be "Charlie" in a nutshell. You've ignored anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions and railed on about anything you don't like. It is sorta like watching the Pot scream "Black!!" at the kettle. I know if I was in that position I would hope to realize I couldnt "fix" the Christian extremists, and I couldn't "fix" the Muslim extremists...but I would try my damnedest not to imitate them.
Good Luck CHarlie.
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But as the last funny bomb of the night...both sides seem to have their extremists. They ignore everything wrong about "their" side and scream and kick about anything the other side does. Which re-reading this thread seems to be "Charlie" in a nutshell. You've ignored anything that doesn't fit your preconceived notions and railed on about anything you don't like. It is sorta like watching the Pot scream "Black!!" at the kettle. I know if I was in that position I would hope to realize I couldnt "fix" the Christian extremists, and I couldn't "fix" the Muslim extremists...but I would try my damnedest not to imitate them.
Good Luck CHarlie.
Christians are more extremist than you believe. Yes, most Catholics consider the Pope's word to be very important. But, protestants by and large consider him a figurehead. Nothing divine or anything. So, they quickly dismiss his statements.
Christians do not follow their own beliefs. The Bible is extremely violent, yet you have Christians up in arms saying that Islam should eliminate the violence in the Quran. You love to preach to others but do not live up to the rules you want to impose on others. Christians are supposed to "turn the other cheek". Yet, you have Christians provoking Muslims. So much for "turning the other cheek". Radical Christians simply want another "Holy War" against Islam and they won't be happy unless they eliminate life on this planet because they want the "Rapture" to happen. Problem is, they want to take the entire world with them on their doomsday trip.
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I have no doubt... zero doubt... that whoever reads this will automatically assume it is talking about the other side... The effective use of propoganda... "Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood."[5]
As to the methods to be employed, he explains:
"Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side. (...) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (...) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula."
Masterfully written and patently true across the board, especially in the enlightened United States in the year 2010.. without a doubt the best description of propoganda, the best illustration of how to use it effectively, it's not sugar coated, it's raw and its honest and if you follow it... it works...... whoever wrote this is obviously a person with a deep understanding of human nature and has the gift of the ability to influence people...  Now everybody can get back to your talking points and your name calling and your insulting... 
yebat' Putin
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Well ..... evidently Strip clubs are fine on "hallowed ground" .....but a Muslim Center and/or Mosque cannot be allowed on such a "sacred site".
This entire incident has been an embarassment from the very beginning. Frankly, I am ashamed that so many Americans could treat other Americans with such distain and even flat out hatred because of their religion.
As far as the nutjob down in Florida ..... he was probably paid off. He got what he wanted .... lots of attention, and probably lots of money.
I am also surprised that so many in the Muslim world are unable or unwilling to see that burning the American flag is seen as being just as offensive as burning a Koran would be to them. They do not consider that we hold our collective temper over such an offensive act.
Frankly, I am disgusted by a really large portion of humanity right now.
I just wanted to quote this because I think its something everyone on this board should read. This is what happens when people put their brains to use and do some critical thinking. We need a lot more of that in this country right now, this rhetoric and bickering we've been bombarded with is the driving force behind our country going into the crapper and that won't change until people stop talking with their heads up their asses. Thanks for getting the ball rolling.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Charlie,
There is so much wrong with the things you write that I'm not even going to quote any one thing. I take issue with your whole out look. Having freedom of religion in this country doesn't mean accepting a big ol middle finger from a group that wants to build a mosque. Quit kidding yourself son, that's exactly what it is. You're all about freedom right? Well what's your problem with the pastor that wants to burn the quaran? It's a form of expression which is a form of speech,right? Why doesn't he have the right to practice his freedom of speech with out having violence threatened against Americans? Tell me buddy, who is that pastor harming by burning the quaran?
I'll come right out and say it, America was built with Christianity at the foundation and if you don't like it then that's your problem. "In God We Trust", "One Nation Under God", yes the sayings are on our currency and in our pledge. If someone wants to build a Christian church by ground zero, should it be allowed? The answer is a big fat, YES, Christians didn't kill American citizens. Muslims did, is the picture becoming clearer to you yet.
Let me know if a drunk driver ever hits your car (no I wish no harm to you though, just your car) I would like to open a bar or beer distributor right across the street. I'll call it "haha, here's a reminder of what my product did to your fancy new car, it's my right so deal with it"
You just keep thumping your chest and selling out your own country in the name of being "just".
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Again, Well I never saw saw a stripper fly her B51 Jumbo cooter into a building and blow it up!!! Really, do you not get it, Matt and Charlie??!!
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And I have rarely seen a Muslin blow up an abortion clinic.
No religion can claim to be free of violence by all people who supposedly belong to them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Well what's your problem with the pastor that wants to burn the quaran? It's a form of expression which is a form of speech,right?
No, that is not freedom of expression. That is a person intentionally provoking Muslims.
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I'll come right out and say it, America was built with Christianity at the foundation and if you don't like it then that's your problem. "In God We Trust", "One Nation Under God", yes the sayings are on our currency and in our pledge.
America was also built off of slave labor. Does that make slave labor acceptable? America was built off of the destruction of an entire culture and way of life. The Native American population has been decimated due to war and disease brought by European settlers. So, does that mean that Slavery and Mass Murder are acceptable since they built this country? But, oh yea, that was doing your "Christian" duty. Spreading the faith to the "faithless" right?
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If someone wants to build a Christian church by ground zero, should it be allowed? The answer is a big fat, YES, Christians didn't kill American citizens. Muslims did, is the picture becoming clearer to you yet.
Right, Christians don't kill American citizens. So, then, how do you explain there are roughly 15,000 murders in this country every year. Christians are not responsible for them, as you state. Then, how do you explain all the individuals committing murder because "God told them to do it"?
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Let me know if a drunk driver ever hits your car (no I wish no harm to you though, just your car) I would like to open a bar or beer distributor right across the street.
Alcohol is not responsible for that. The person is responsible for that. I do not hold alcohol responsible for the deaths of people in drunk-driving incidents. I hold the driver responsible for it and their poor judgement.
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I'll call it "haha, here's a reminder of what my product did to your fancy new car, it's my right so deal with it"
No, Alcohol is not responsible for that. A stupid driver who made the conscientous choice to drive drunk is responsible for that. That driver could have called a friend to come pick them up because they didn't feel safe to drive. That person, had the known they would have gotten drunk, could have had a designated driver. But, they chose not to. They made the choice to get into that motor vehicle knowing full well that they were drunk and their own stupidity is responsible for any accident that will occur.
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You just keep thumping your chest and selling out your own country in the name of being "just".
So, defending Muslims makes somebody a traitor and a "sell-out" of their country. Don't worry, at one point defending runaway slaves was considered traitorous and "un-american". Heck, letting an African American date a White Woman was a crime at one point and considered "Un-American". Why? Because the idea of America was in the WASP image (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). I'm no WASP. Heck, at one point (and in some parts of this country) I am considered "Un-American" because of the religion that my family is and because my family is of Slavic and Italian descent.
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Legend
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No, that is not freedom of expression. That is a person intentionally provoking Muslims.
They are just books, paper and ink... they aren't Allah, they aren't a mosque that doesn't belong to him (Muslims blow those up all the time by the way), they aren't the innocent children of Muslims.. books, paper and ink... that's it. .... I think he should burn 100 copies of The Audacity of Hope and just SAY they were Korans... Then the extremists would be trying to kill people for no good reason and those who did it would be denied their virgins and would go to hell..
yebat' Putin
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No, that is not freedom of expression. That is a person intentionally provoking Muslims.
Then what do you call Muslims building a mosque by ground zero? Can't have it both ways, sorry dude.
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America was also built off of slave labor. Does that make slave labor acceptable? America was built off of the destruction of an entire culture and way of life. The Native American population has been decimated due to war and disease brought by European settlers. So, does that mean that Slavery and Mass Murder are acceptable since they built this country? But, oh yea, that was doing your "Christian" duty. Spreading the faith to the "faithless" right?
Weakest argument yet. Nice spin though, too bad I can do that with everything you say.
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Right, Christians don't kill American citizens. So, then, how do you explain there are roughly 15,000 murders in this country every year. Christians are not responsible for them, as you state. Then, how do you explain all the individuals committing murder because "God told them to do it"?
Are those murders mass murders based off terrorism or are you just talking everyday crimes. Stay on topic. Thanks, appreciate it.
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Alcohol is not responsible for that. The person is responsible for that. I do not hold alcohol responsible for the deaths of people in drunk-driving incidents. I hold the driver responsible for it and their poor judgement.
I believe you got the point
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So, defending Muslims makes somebody a traitor and a "sell-out" of their country. Don't worry, at one point defending runaway slaves was considered traitorous and "un-american". Heck, letting an African American date a White Woman was a crime at one point and considered "Un-American". Why? Because the idea of America was in the WASP image (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant). I'm no WASP. Heck, at one point (and in some parts of this country) I am considered "Un-American" because of the religion that my family is and because my family is of Slavic and Italian descent.
If you would stick to the topic at hand, that being the mosque and what it represents to alot of Americans you would have no argument. You already proved it by your junior high attempts at rebuttling my points. Say what you want, but you get my point and Arch's points for that matter. Arch at least shows that all isn't lost, some people get it.
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DC, just nailed it on the head and that is also a heck of an idea to shaft them out of some virgins.
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Legend
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Heck, letting an African American date a White Woman was a crime at one point and considered "Un-American". Why? Because the idea of America was in the WASP image (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant).
I know a lot of black people who are FAR more adamently opposed to interracial marriage than most of the white people I know...
But you have this deep seated hatred for WASPS that is really hard to explain and in your mind all fault must ultimately revert back to them somehow... so continue.
yebat' Putin
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Charlie suffers from white guilt that was either brought on by college professors or by his up bringing. In his world white people would work and have not rights and be taxed at 100%. The money would be spread to the muslims so they can build mosques and terrorists camps all over American soil. God would be banned from every school, court house, and home while every other higher power, especially Allah, could be openly worshipped.
Last edited by CenterField7; 09/10/10 01:41 AM.
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Then what do you call Muslims building a mosque by ground zero? Can't have it both ways, sorry dude.
It is not a mosque and it is not on ground zero. I call it Freedom of Religion. Muslims live in New York (big shock, for you, I'm sure). Muslims actually are a part of this society and are a rather large group in this society. You can't play the "Islam is evil" card. There are over 1.6 BILLION Muslims in the world. To believe that "Islam" is nothing but a religion of terrorism is extremely idiotic.
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Weakest argument yet. Nice spin though, too bad I can do that with everything you say.
Slave labor is responsible for the infrastructure of this country. Without slave labor the US would not be a self-sustaining nation. Such a "weak" argument despite the fact that slavery has been in this country the moment Europeans came to this continent. Not a weak argument at all, but in fact, a strong one.
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Are those murders mass murders based off terrorism or are you just talking everyday crimes. Stay on topic. Thanks, appreciate it.
Every day crimes. You stated that Christians do not kill Americans. Yet, every single day you see Christians killing Americans. But, ok, I'll play along with your "Christians are not terrorists" card. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. He was a firm supporter of the Branch Davidians and blamed the US government for their deaths. That is why he committed his terorrist act in Oklahoma City. Need more Christian terrorists? The Unibomber. Sure, he was a hermit living in the woods. But one thing is for certain, he certainly was religious. Abortion clinic bombings also ring a bell? David Koresh as well, speaking of Branch Davidians. Jim Jones? Jonestown?
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IIf you would stick to the topic at hand, that being the mosque and what it represents to alot of Americans you would have no argument. You already proved it by your junior high attempts at rebuttling my points. Say what you want, but you get my point and Arch's points for that matter. Arch at least shows that all isn't lost, some people get it.
You called me Un-American and a person that "sold out his country". I have every right to defend myself against that charge. Aiding and abetting escaped slaves was considered Un-American. Being Jewish was considered Un-American. Being Chinese was considered Un-American. Being Japanese was considered Un-American. Being Italian, Slavic, or Irish was considered Un-American.
Now, you are claiming that being "Muslim" and standing up for Muslims is "Un-American". Your arguments would be really good in 1860. Hell, it would even be acceptable in 1910 and 1950. But, this is 2010. That talk is no longer acceptable. No one race or religion can claim to be more "American" than the next.
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I got to go to bed. I'll argue with your double talk at another point. I know you know what I mean, I'm giving your looooooooooots of credit saying that too. I sure hope you can differentiate between what McVeigh did and what happened on 9/11. If you can't see the difference then it looks like you just have a selective thought process.
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Charlie suffers from white guilt that was either brought on by college professors or by his up bringing. In his world white people would work and have not rights and be taxed at 100%. The money would be spread to the muslims so they can build mosques and terrorists camps all over American soil. God would be banned from every school, court house, and home while every other higher power, especially Allah, could be openly worshipped.
White Guilt? College Professors? White people should have no rights? Whites should be taxed at 100%?
Two can play that game.
Why don't you take the sheet off your head and stop burning those crosses at your meetings? I know they must really like you in Kentucky. But, really? The KKK is so old-school. Plus, dressing in white sheets makes you look more like Casper. I know, you like taking those Appalachian trips where you make tourists squeel like a pig. You need to stop taking your ideas from Birth of a Nation.
Doesn't feel so good now, does it?
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I'll come right out and say it, America was built with Christianity at the foundation and if you don't like it then that's your problem. "In God We Trust", "One Nation Under God", yes the sayings are on our currency and in our pledge. If someone wants to build a Christian church by ground zero, should it be allowed? The answer is a big fat, YES, Christians didn't kill American citizens. Muslims did, is the picture becoming clearer to you yet.
If you can take a second to remove yourself from Sarah Palin's teet I have some interesting tidbits of information for you. In 1956, as a response to the cold war and the McCarthy witch hunts, congress passed a resolution to replace our motto with "In God We Trust" because of the desire to differentiate ourselves from communism, which largely promoted atheism. The next year the motto appeared on the dollar bill and by 1966 it was on all of our currency. That was just a few years after America came into existence. What was originally on our currency was our countries original motto, E Pluribus Unum. Which translated means "One From Many" in reference to a single federal state (the federal government) formed from individual political units (individual states). This first appeared in 1785 on our first official seal and added to our currency in 1795, again just a few years before we put "In God We Trust" on our money.
Another piece of information you might enjoy is that "under God" was also added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950's (1954 I believe) to combat those evil commies. The feeling around these parts was that if we linked patriotism with religion we could distinguish ourselves from those soviet heathens. The reason its such a staple in our lives now is because everyone who was elementary school aged in the 50's or later has had the pledge pounded into their head every morning for 12 years straight.
The majority of the "founding fathers" were deists or unitarians and rejected the divinity of Jesus and both the old and new testaments. Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that:
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I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
During John Adams (the 2nd president of the U.S.) administration the treaty of peace and friendship was ratified, which states specifically:
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the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
Quoting a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to John Adams on July 5th, 1814 that can be found in the library of congress and also quoted in Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History (Fawn M. Brodie, 1975):
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The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained.
James Madison, widely known as the father of the constitution, taken from his biography in his own words in a letter he wrote to William Bradford, April 1st, 1774:
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"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Ben Franklin, also from his biography in his own words:
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As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble.
This country was founded for the freedom to not be bound to any religion and the beliefs of the founding fathers echo that sentiment.
Just because that hot blonde on Fox News says something is true doesn't mean it is, but who cares about those pesky facts right? Next time you want to spout off at the mouth about history maybe you should take a class first.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Let me ask you a serious question .....
If you put yourself in their shoes ..... and are called miserable excuses for human beings who do not deserve to be on "hallowed ground" among the strip clubs in the neighborhood where they purchased land to build .... how would you react?
Be completely honest.
I think I answered that question when I said I'd defend thier right to put the mosque anywhere they wanted to put it.. and I stand by that statement.
I do however question the wisdom of putting it so near the 9/11 site.
And I do think they are doing so to stir up contraversy.. I really believe it's an attempt to inflame the American people.. kinda like rubbing our noses in it.
Be that as it may, I stand by my belief that they have a right to put that mosque anywhere they want as long as they obtain the land legally and follow building laws and regulations..
I just think that if they are trying to make this peaceful, if they are trying to get along and prove they are not a threat, then I question the wisdom of putting the mosque where they propose...
Is that an honest enough answer for you Ytown?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Actually .... no.
You did not answer the question.
If I said to you, Daman ......
"Sorry. I understand that you just bought property here in our neighborhood that is filled with strip clubs and massage parlors ..... (and God know what else) but we just don't want you here. This is hallowed ground, so get out and go build somewhere else."
How woud YOU feel?
How would YOU feel if you were essentially told that strippers, massage parlors, drug dealers and God knows what else are fine in our neighborhood ..... but YOU are where we just have to draw the line?
Because that is what is being said here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Actually .... no.
You did not answer the question.
If I said to you, Daman ......
"Sorry. I understand that you just bought property here in our neighborhood that is filled with strip clubs and massage parlors ..... (and God know what else) but we just don't want you here. This is hallowed ground, so get out and go build somewhere else."
How woud YOU feel?
How would YOU feel if you were essentially told that strippers, massage parlors, drug dealers and God knows what else are fine in our neighborhood ..... but YOU are where we just have to draw the line?
Because that is what is being said here.
To be honest, unless I had a different agenda in mind other than the apparent, I wouldn't put myself in that position..
But that aside, I'd be pretty ticked off..
If I bought the land legally, if I was willing to follow all the building and zoning rules.. then I'd be pretty ticked off.
Also, I believe the strip clubs (or whatever) have little to no relevance to the subject.. to me it's a diversion brought out by those that just want to win an argument.. meaningless to me.
IT's simple,, they have the right.. the only way to really stop it is to appeal to thier better angels.. barring that, there isn't anything that can be done legally as far as I know.. But I'm not a lawyer so take that for what it's worth.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The only reason that I bring up strip clubs, etc., is because of this claim that this is now "sacred and hallowed ground" made by those opposed to the Mosque. Quote:
To be honest, unless I had a different agenda in mind other than the apparent, I wouldn't put myself in that position..
Fair enough.
There are other Mosques in the area. How would you know prior to purchasing the property that this firestorm would ensue?
How did the owners of the Mosque "put themselves in that position"?
A person who buys drugs and winds up getting shot "puts themself in that poisition".
A person who goes to a hooker and winds up with a STD "puts themself in that position".
A person who invites a known criminal to housesit for them and winds up with all of their stuff stolen "puts themself in that position".
A person who buys a piece of property and then faces protests because they want to build a religious establishment in an area not known for its high moral standards does not "put themself in a position".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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