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I'm DONE believing in the philosophy of "Build the team around the QB first, THEN draft the QB." There is a major difference between putting a rookie in an unwinnable scenario (ex: behind a swiss cheese line) and letting one take their lumps.
Everyone wants Mangini and Daboll's head but here's a very clear fact, especially after yesterday's game specifically: If Wallace connects on even half of those deep balls or the receivers draw a pass interference, we're not calling for their heads today.
I'm honestly at the point where we make the irrational decision to draft a QB in the first round every year until one emerges. I don't care about the money tied into the cap anymore. I just don't. I want a QB who doesn't suck.
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Legend
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Quote:
... a QB who doesn't suck.
That is something of which I am not familiar.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Our team is good enough right now to support going after the high dollar QB..... .. I said last night and I still believe it.. give this team a healthy Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson and we are a 10 win team.. right now.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Our team is good enough right now to support going after the high dollar QB..... .. I said last night and I still believe it.. give this team a healthy Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson and we are a 10 win team.. right now.
Yes, give us the #1 overall pick and the number #2 overall pick and we'll compete for the playoffs. 
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Quote:
Quote:
Our team is good enough right now to support going after the high dollar QB..... .. I said last night and I still believe it.. give this team a healthy Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson and we are a 10 win team.. right now.
Yes, give us the #1 overall pick and the number #2 overall pick and we'll compete for the playoffs.
We've had those picks before.. what do we have to show for it? That's my point.
yebat' Putin
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OK, I thought the point you were trying to make was that we were close, not that we haven't drafted well.
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Legend
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My point is a little of both.. I think we are closer than people give us credit for.. I know frustrations are high but if you put a really good young QB on this team.. a Stafford or a Matt Ryan.. I think we look 100% better.. and if you are 1 or 2 players away, then I think you are close.. but they have to be the right players.. (don't even have to be a #1 and #2.. ) how about a Josh Freeman (who I'm still not sure is a franchise QB) and a Marques Colston? Chad Henne and Hakim Nicks? See, I don't have to go #1 and #2 to upgrade and make us better..
yebat' Putin
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I agree. That's why I can't decide if we should take Luck/Mallett or Green/Jones.
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Dawg Talker
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In our case,I believe that should read "The Impotence of the QB Position"
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I read you loud and clear.
I posted on the Browns site:
"Bum Parade"
It was deleted. I don't why.
But the point is the Browns will not win with any consistency until we get a guy who can play the position at a high level.
Below are the Browns' starting quarterbacks since 1999, ranked according to passer efficiency rating (attempts-completions-yards-TDs-interceptions)
1. Kelly Holcomb 83.3 (507-323-3,438-26-21)
2. Trent Dilfer 76.9 (333-199-2,321-11-12)
3. Jeff Garcia 76.7 (252-144-1,731-10-9)
4. Ty Detmer 75.7 (91-47-548-4-2)
5. (tie) Tim Couch 75.1 (1,714-1,025-11,131-64-67)
Derek Anderson 75.1 (927-506-6,195-43-35)
7. Charlie Frye 71.1 (567-354-3,490-14-23)
8. Brady Quinn 65.1 (97-48-563-2-2)
9. Doug Pederson 56.6 (210-117-1,047-2-8)
10. Luke McCown 52.6 (98-48-608-4-7)
11. Ken Dorsey 34.0 (75-33-306-0-4)
Pretty pathetic. Now just add Delhomme and Wallace.
=======================================================
Enough said.
The 2011 draft should have three top ranked QB's enter the draft:
Jake Locker, Andrew Luck, Ryan Mallett.
It can debated later as to who is best for us, (Although I am intrigued by Andrew Luck.)
Look, Colt McCoy may develop into "the man". But the team can not afford to put all their eggs in that basket.
The Browns must solve the revolving door at QB. The teams that consistently compete for division crowns all have franchise QB's period.
Short term Delhomme and or Wallace can win a few games but no way are they an answer.
I would rather win 2 games this year and get the right guy than win 8; which to me is just another losing season.
I hate losing but I see no way out of this hole until we get QB that can lead a team to victory in the nick of time. A QB that the team and the fans believe in. You do that by actions. By taking over a game a leading the team to victory.
These last two games are perfect examples. Both games we get shut out in the second half. Both games the opportunity to win the game was in the lap of the QB.
Yes, it's a team game. But it is also a passing league, and the teams with franchise QB's compete for titles. The ones who do not lose.
I will continue to follow the team and watch as I have done for a very long time.
But, the expectation level is very low and hope is at a all time low.
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Wow. Dilfer is 2nd? 
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I agree 100% and have said it a few times on the board - until we draft a franchise QB, we are stuck in being mediocre. The QB position is so important - the most important - that when you are average to below average, it's clear what the offense is stuck with then.
The Browns since 1999 are clear examples of this.
I'd hate to think of drafting QB after QB, but there's no other way to get them. You MUST draft them or pull off a miracle McNabb type trade which we know rarely happens.
Until you hit in the draft @ the QB position, you are stuck. You will not be able to trade for a franchise QB so the draft is literally the ONLY option available. The NFL is not like the MLB where come draft time you can just trade your way to a winning QB.
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Quote:
I agree. That's why I can't decide if we should take Luck/Mallett or Green/Jones.
I think you have to go with the franchise QB (Luck being my favorite). The bottom line is that in today's NFL, you NEED to have a franchise QB to win. Sure, you can draft weapons and hope to fill the position in, but at the end of the day, it's the QB who will make you competitive. The QB makes the rest of the players on offense better. Plus, you'll be able to find other playmakers outside of a Top 5 pick but you may not be able to find a franchise QB. Even if there is one outside of the Top 5, they rarely make it out of the first half of the 1st round.
In our current situation, our line is good enough where we can keep a rookie QB alive. Let's take him this year and get our weapon through the 2nd round, bring someone in via trade or FA or even wait until the next draft. The QB is the hardest piece to find and it needs to be top priority. I hope we make it ours.
We're... we're good?
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I'm afraid that this (getting either a Luck or Mallet) will require some guarantee of the first pick. While we're well on our way, the Browns will pull off some late season surprises and play back down to 5/6/7 -- hence, those two will be gone.
Anybody up for turning Pryor into a Randall Cunningham type ? He's still pretty raw, though,...what other QB's are out there that we haven't considered yet ?
There are no good answers when you're bad.
Get a Right Tackle. And somebody like Joe Bugel.
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I'm afraid that this (getting either a Luck or Mallet) will require some guarantee of the first pick. While we're well on our way, the Browns will pull off some late season surprises and play back down to 5/6/7 -- hence, those two will be gone.
Fortunately, they are both in the draft (as well as Locker who scared me this weekend) along with Christian Ponder. This is a great year for QBs.
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Anybody up for turning Pryor into a Randall Cunningham type ? He's still pretty raw, though,...what other QB's are out there that we haven't considered yet ?
No.
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Drafting a Qb high does not guarantee anything.
if this team gets a high draft pick, it needs to go to the Defensive Line...take a lesson from the Houston Texans...Mario Willaims and Okye anyone?
we lack that "Hammer" on our Defensive Front 7 Defense Wins games, our D couldn't get off the field against KC..they couldn't stop them on 3rd down...gave up the game winning field goal.
we need D help
I want us to "trade" for a QB...there are some good young seasoned backup QB in the NFL on other teams right now that have starting caliber talent that are just stuck behind another guy they can't really bench.
the first one that comes to my mind is Matt Flynn backup for the Green Bay Packers..
the guy isn't going to get to play because he is stuck behind Aaron Rogers...think Matt Schuab...Flynn is a good QB..and he has had some time to develop...he can come in right away and start and actually do something...its takes 3 years to develop a 1st rd QB..Flynn can come in day one and produce...i'll take Flynn and we can probably get him without having to give up as much more him.
We can then use that 1st rd pick on "our Hammer" for our Defensive Front 7...Defense wins games not QB...the Qb can't throw the ball when hes on his back, and hes not as accurate when he is hearing footsteps...
If we can't Get Flynn, then we can invest in a QB in the later rds...
in the current state this team is in (subpar talent at Wr, RB, RG, RT, DL, LB, and S) no way we are a 10 win team with a QB...over the next few weeks you will see just how "bad" this defense really is...
we overachieved a bit these first two games, however we are still ranked 24th in the NFL in run D and giving up nearly 4 yards a carry(3.8) so our D still hasn't played as well as many believe...Now if we can hold the Ravens to under 21 points and keep them from getting over 110 yards on the ground as a team..then i'll takea closer took...
there are many more areas this team needs to look with its first rd pick besides QB at this point...fix this Defensive Front 7 first then worry about QB
a top 10 D = 8 wins
fix the d first then worry about a QB....
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Our D really isn't looking that bad.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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The Texans D got shredded last week and their offense bailed them out. You have no idea how to build a team so stop prtentding you have THE model to make us a contender it's annoying.
We all have recommendations or things we would like to see but you seem to be the only one who thinks you know how it's done and want a plan executed in your exact mold or the team will suck.
Newsflash: You aren't a talent evaluator and you have no clue how to build a winning NFL Franchise so quit with the holier than thou attitude it's dreaful to read especially since you are wrong 90% of the time. The only thing you are evr right about is that we will lose and the odds are on your side in that regard. Nothing you have said thus far has come to fruition other than the fact we are 0-2.
Drop the schtick I'm starting to think you are a troll.
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QB's aren't important at all,,, we've not had one for 10 years and we STILL FILL UP THE Stadium..... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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when it comes to QBs and our team...
who would win us the most games right now?
DA
Brady
Colt
Delhomme
Ratliff
or Wallace?
Out of the 6 QBs that have been on our roster, and watching the last couple games...
I'd almost say lets play McCoy...if Delhomme is going to be a middle of the road leader, and Wallace is going to be a middle of the road QB...then why not get the winningest QB in NCAA history who has played on very big stages AND won several games in one of the most competitive leagues in college football. He's led comeback victories and hes been able to move the ball...Maybe resting on that could help us.
Now if Delhomme or Wallace can show competence to get it done sure...but so far...they havent. I'd rather have a rookie looking subpar than i would a multi-year veteran.
With what we have right now...im not far from thinking Colt McCoy would be our best option.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Drafting a Qb high does not guarantee anything.
Obviously, we have proven that.
The initial post said we draft until we get a homerun. And until that point, you keep drafting QBs.
It's that important.
Plugging a hole or two on D does not change games at this point. Stopping their RB one yard shorter than he was going to get doesn't alter the end result. Having a QB that doesn't throw a pick 6 that was a flutter to say the least does change games. Having a QB that knows what he's doing out there does change games.
A new big body on the D isn't going to change the game at this point.
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Legend
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Quote:
Out of the 6 QBs that have been on our roster, and watching the last couple games...
I'd almost say lets play McCoy...
Oh you didn't just go there
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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..if Delhomme is going to be a middle of the road leader, and Wallace is going to be a middle of the road QB...
Isn't that EXACTLY what we signed?
It's not like we brought these guys over after a massive bidding war for their elite services.
We currently have EXACTLY what we went out and got - an aging vet coming off a horrendous year and a career backup. We did not pull a quick one on anyone and snuck McNabb in over here.
So assuming that Holmgren knew what he was signing, then you stick to the plan - keep McCoy on the sidelines. At this point we must trust Holmgren.
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Personally, I think Seneca has played the best so far (yes, only one game, but I thought he looked decent).
I thought he came in and played well. He connected on a couple long ones, and was able to scramble out of trouble a couple times. He's not as accurate as you would like, but I think he did better than Jake in his regular season game.
That being said, I shudder to think of starting Seneca long-term. The guy is a great backup, not a good starter.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I think we are closer than people give us credit for..
Coaching and QB play. That's what wins in this league.
Take Washington for example. Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell = 4-12
Mike Shannahan and Donovan McNabb = a missed FG away from being 2-0 with two wins over teams who everyone expects to be playoff teams in Dallas and Houston.
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Quote:
I'm afraid that this (getting either a Luck or Mallet) will require some guarantee of the first pick. While we're well on our way, the Browns will pull off some late season surprises and play back down to 5/6/7 -- hence, those two will be gone.
Getting Luck might (Mallett isn't a 1st overall QB) but with the way things are going, we're one loss to Buffalo away from making that a real possibility.
We're... we're good?
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
I think we are closer than people give us credit for..
Coaching and QB play. That's what wins in this league.
Take Washington for example. Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell = 4-12
Mike Shannahan and Donovan McNabb = a missed FG away from being 2-0 with two wins over teams who everyone expects to be playoff teams in Dallas and Houston.
I'll argue it's more QB than coaching.
We're 2-0 without IDIOTIC INT's. There are INT's and then there are idiotic INT's.
I know, I know, ifs and buts are candy and nuts...but I'm not laying this at the feet of Mangini.
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And you shouldn't,...it was the defense   <sarcasm off>
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Andrew Luck looks like the best QB to come out of college in a real long time.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Andrew Luck looks like the best QB to come out of college in a real long time.
<insert_name_here> looks like the best QB to come out of college in a real long time.
We hear that every year about at least one player in every crop of QB's... so, unless your measure of "a real long time" is roughly 12 months, it doesn't mean squat.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think we are closer than people give us credit for..
Coaching and QB play. That's what wins in this league.
Take Washington for example. Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell = 4-12
Mike Shannahan and Donovan McNabb = a missed FG away from being 2-0 with two wins over teams who everyone expects to be playoff teams in Dallas and Houston.
I'll argue it's more QB than coaching.
We're 2-0 without IDIOTIC INT's. There are INT's and then there are idiotic INT's.
I know, I know, ifs and buts are candy and nuts...but I'm not laying this at the feet of Mangini.
Saying it's a single person's fault is not true.
However, average QB play cannot overcome bad coaching. Just like average coaching cannot overcome bad QB play.
Either way, we are a long way away from being a super bowl team on offense.
you had a good run Hank.
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Yeah, I'm thinking I'd rather go with "The LAST good QB to come out of colllege was,....<Brees?> your most recent SB winner,...before that <Manning?> and then <Brady?> " ...,...
Isn't Tom Brady a sixth rounder ?
Look at just your recent Heisman list,....Smith, Leinart, White, Weinke and Crouch, with having to hold judgement yet on The Tim & Sam Show(s). And I won't even start on the list of failures who were just Heisman hopefuls,....
"Good QB's from college" is a relative term (teehee). The science is in picking "The One."
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Quote:
Quote:
Andrew Luck looks like the best QB to come out of college in a real long time.
<insert_name_here> looks like the best QB to come out of college in a real long time.
We hear that every year about at least one player in every crop of QB's... so, unless your measure of "a real long time" is roughly 12 months, it doesn't mean squat.
Ok, let me measure it this way. From what I have seen, Andrew Luck looks to be head and shoulders better than:
Sam Bradford / Claussen / Tebow
Stafford / Sanchez (I never saw Freeman play)
Matt Ryan / Chad Henne (I never saw Flacco play at Delaware)
Russell / Quinn
That's as far back as I'll go as I'm not sure I'd say he looks better than Vince Young as Vince was such a dominant college player and a completely different style QB.
The problem is that I'm not sure he comes out this year. He's a junior and why would any junior come out in this draft if the labor dispute isn't resolved? they could potentially force themselves to sit out a year (and without $$$ as the draft would occur but no contracts would be signed).
#gmstrong
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I forgot about the "Junior" stay-in-the-closet angle,....hopefully that keeps Pryor in Columbus full term.
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If he doesn't look better than Vince Young, he doesn't look very good.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Yea...youre last statement is why I think that he's not a great option to start the rest of the year.
I wouldnt mind it...but if he does start the rest of the season, i dont know how i'd feel about it. I'm not against him...but he doesnt inspire confidence for me...Delhomme at least you see a QB thats gone to the SB and done good things in his career...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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3 weeks into the college season is not enough to judge these guys yet..
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Quote:
If he doesn't look better than Vince Young, he doesn't look very good.
Vince Young in college though? He was dominant.
Yes, he utilized his feet and that caused the defense to leave WRs wide open some of the time (as they scurried up to the LOS to defend a possible run), but he still had an amazing year.
Yeah, I'd still rather have a traditional guy like Luck for the Browns, but VY was plenty good in college.
#gmstrong
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I'd like to have Luck on our side for once ... *rimshot* Not to mention, if it comes down to a final drive near the end of a tight playoff game ... I'd prefer to have the QB from Stanford playing for us this time. 
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Legend
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If you want to go by who was dominant in college we have the winningest college QB in history already on the roster...
yebat' Putin
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The importance of the QB position.
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