DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why "The Process" Will Work if We're Patient

After a frustrating 0-3 start, many Browns fans were calling for head coach Eric Mangini’s head.
Fans and media members lit up the radio and television airwaves and criticized play-calling, coaching decisions and the type of player Mangini reportedly likes: the hard-working, smart player who may not have ideal talent, but has an undying heart.
Guys who are all heart such as Jason Trusnik, Eric Barton and the ill-fated David Veikune draft pick come to mind.
However, I have to ask the question: Is this truly the type of player Mangini wants on a Super Bowl contending roster? Or is this the type of player he wants in order to see through a desperately needed culture change in Berea?
If you listen to certain members of the local media, they’ll have you believing that Mangini’s roster is complete with the players he wants.
I disagree. I believe the Browns had to establish a mentality before they could add talent, and we just now are beginning to see the fruits of the talent acquisition.

We can argue about the quality of Mangini’s 2009 draft picks until we’re blue in the face, but the truth of the matter is that Eric Mangini the Head Football Coach should not have to pay for the sins of Eric Mangini the General Manager, forced into the role because former GM George Kokinis was allegedly incapable of doing his job properly. (We can argue whether or not Mangini wanted Kokinis to be his puppet in the first place, but since Mike Holmgren hinted that Mangini was forced into the GM role involuntarily, I’m inclined to believe Holmgren).
While everything about the 2009 Browns season was painful until the month of December, logic says it was likely to be a very painful season regardless of who was the head coach and GM.
The 2008 Browns needed an enema in the worst way come 2009. The 2009 season revolved around “stripping the team down to its very core” and establishing a mentality of toughness. Of course, despite Alex Mack being an exceptional 1st round pick, the rest of the draft is sketchy at best, and not much pure talent was acquired.
But, it was only step one of what Mangini calls “The Process” which he stated is a 5-year plan in an ESPN The Magazine article before the season.

So what is the 2010 season about? It’s Step 2 of “The Process.”
It’s not about contending for a Super Bowl, it’s about building the team back up using the concrete foundation of toughness established in 2009 (the concrete which hardened in December).
If 2009 was about pouring concrete, 2010 is about laying bricks. While the record hasn’t shown it, the results on the field speak for itself.
Through four games, the Browns have physically punished every team they’ve played. If it weren’t for critical, maddening mistakes where the team shot themselves in the foot, one can make a truly logical case that the Browns could be 3-1, maybe 4-0.
I know…coulda, woulda, shouldas don’t count…but I truly see where the Browns have the correct mentality as a football team. They have physically beat up every team they’ve played, even though a surplus of standout talent isn’t on the roster yet.
But nevertheless, Mangini’s guys have established the mentality, and now it’s time for the General Manager to carry out the talent acquisition, to keep laying bricks and eventually add the roof and interior.

Enter General Manager Tom Heckert, the right man for the job. Look at the Browns’ excellent 2010 Draft Class: Joe Haden and TJ Ward have shown tremendous instinct, Montario Hardesty was in line to be a stud running back before injury (watch the film of Preseason Game 4: despite only a handful of carries, he showed vision and a burst through the hole that stud running backs possess), and Shawn Lauvao may still enter the starting lineup when he returns from injury.
The best part? They still fit Mangini’s criteria for smart, hard-working players with high motors. Could it be that a foundation of veterans who fit the criteria needed to be in place before said talent was acquired in order to build on an established culture? I think so.
Otherwise you have guys like Braylon Edwards joining a team becoming a poisonous to a locker room due to thinking they’re the stars before they’ve earned anything. (Purposely left out: Colt McCoy, who I’m not expecting much from, but if he becomes “the guy we’ve been waiting for” at quarterback, it makes this draft class even more special.)
The 2010 Draft Class could literally be the class that changed it all. These are the bricks being laid to the foundation.

In addition to the draft class, Heckert acquired Sheldon Brown, Scott Fujita, Chris Gocong, Tony Pashos and Peyton Hillis, Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace, among others via free agency or trade.
Some of these players are stop-gaps until more talent is acquired through future drafts, free agency acquisitions and trades, others are true building blocks (mainly Hillis), but all have made a world of difference in fundamentals on this roster.
We are still slow at linebacker, but we’re not missing tackles like in years past. Our secondary has its faults, but they’re allowing us to get off the field in 3rd and long situations more often than in years past. This is the anchor to the concrete foundation established last year to ensure that it’s rock solid in adverse conditions to build the rest of the house on.

But perhaps the most impressive part of Heckert’s resume is the talent acquired by his former team, the Philadelphia Eagles. Heckert was the General Manager of the Eagles from 2006-2009, where the Eagles were playoff contenders every season except 2007 in a tough NFC East Division.
Many have criticized Eagles Coach Andy Reid’s use of personnel with the Eagles, with the failure to establish a true power running game and instead focusing on the pass. Under Mangini, you know the Browns will continue to establish a truly physical running game; a proven formula.

In 2010, the Eagles are rebuilding, but unlike the Browns, who had to burn down the house a rebuild from scratch, the rebuilding is more of a remodeling; far less painful thanks to Heckert’s talent acquisitions in his tenure as GM.
Rather than completely tearing down and starting from scratch, the Eagles still have a young nucleus to build with from Heckert’s drafts such as Jeremy Maclin, LeSean McCoy, Kevin Kolb, DeSean Jackson, Brent Celek, Stewart Bradley and a trade for Pro Bowl Left Tackle Jason Peters. The Eagles will be able to re-load and contend sooner than later if Heckert’s replacement is as good as he is…a luxury that Browns fans will hopefully be able to look forward to in the future after a (hopefully) successful stint of contention.

So you can scream for the Browns to fire Offensive Coordinator Brian Daboll and Mangini soon after…it won’t do us any good. The Browns’ coaching has been solid through the first quarter of the season, the talent simply is not there yet. Coaches don’t fumble and throw careless interceptions in situations where ball security is at a premium. However, the mentality of a physical ballclub that will punch you in the mouth repeatedly, win or lose, is very prominent on this team.
What the Browns really need is more talent…more talent and a quarterback. The talent will come in due time thanks to Tom Heckert, and the quarterback will come in due time thanks to President Mike Holmgren’s wizardry with picking quarterbacks.

The formula is simple: Hardnosed Mentality (Mangini) + Talent (Heckert) + Quarterback (Holmgren) = certain future success. These are the three pillars of success in the NFL, and the Browns have them covered. Browns fans know what needs to be fixed, and so does the coaching staff and front office.
However, like a hangover, the only thing that can truly fix it is time. So, I ask you, Browns Fan: can we PLEASE be patient and let “The Process” play itself out? If we do, the reward could be a dream come true for all of us.

Geesh, you really put some thought into this.

All that said, in spite of all the hard work and effort from the team, I think that, win or lose, Holmgren eventually scoops up HIS replacement for Mangini as soon as he's available.

Ammo, My Man....

Either the moon is in a particular phase, sunspots are in alignment, or something... but this one is eerie, Dawg. Just before I hopped into your thread, I posted at the "Kudos" thread in Looking Back. Here's what I posted:

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I think right now Mangini has players that are not the most talented football players and getting them to play as a very cohesive unit. It seems as though the players have bought in.

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The bolded line in King's post is what I wish to address here.

In this one line, he's perfectly described the New England Patriots ... just before they became the playoff juggernauts we know them to be now. Mangini is doing exactly what Belichick did when he got to Foxboro. There was a time when Tedi Bruschi, Tom Brady, Ted Washington, et al were totally unheard of in this league. They weren't "superstars" when they got their gigs... and many of them weren't especially well-regarded as indivdual players.

What made them "superstars" was winning games... not the other way around. And what got them their "surprising" wins was the philosophy of team cohesiveness .. they played as a unit . Folks were scratching their heads at the improbable wins they were racking up against teams with tons more individual talent. It surprised everyone.... except the Patriots themselves. Why? -because the Pats had bought into a philosophy that they knew would work. All it took was for them to win a couple games following The Plan, and it all came together for them. Success breeds success, and they parlayed those early wins into something pretty special that year. Success breed success... and they parlayed that special year into a special dynasty... one that still exists to this day.

Django says that he wants a team that's a perennial contender for the playoffs. That cannot happen unless a team adopts a culture first. That is a 3-step process:

1. Develop a team philosophy: From the FO on down, all members must be singularly devoted to the team's mission statement. THIS IS WHAT WE STAND FOR. All of us. Every day.

2. Populate your team according to the Mission Statement: Keep players who fit the philosophy, get rid of players who don't. Use the core of personnel that remains to develop the team's identity, then add in complimentary players to replace the bad apples who have left. You may begin with a tem that's severely lacking in overall talent, but you at least start with a team- not a loose bunch of individuals.

3. Maintain the philosophy during the building phase: This is the hardes of the three points to achieve, and perhaps the single most important reason the Browns have struggled ever since their partial birth abortion in 1999. The pressure for instant gratification is enormous... and owners/GM's can easily adopt the big broom approach if result aren't happening quickly enough. Sound familiar? It takes no time at all to build headquarters, stadium and assemble 53 guys in uniforms (read Pluto's "False Start" to see what I mean). It takes real time to build a culture. And time was something that was never given to any of Holmy's/Mangini's predecessors. Every 3 years, wholesale turnovers in not only coaching staff, but top brass as well left this team perpetually adrift at sea without rudder or propulsion. That kind of negative inertia is difficult to overcome. It takes a crapload of hard work, hard decisions, and hard knocks before positive momentum can be established.

What we're seeing here in 2010 is precisely what happened in NE a decade ago. It worked for them then, and it wiill work for us now. Why? Because it's the only way it's ever worked in pro football.

Just ask Paul Brown. Or Vince Lombardi. Or Tom Landry.

.02,
Clemdawg

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nice to see some Dawgs barking in unison around here. Ain't no such thing as coincidence.

Great post, Dawg.

not so sure about that, brown.

I know it's the popular opinion around here, but I still see no tangible evidence to support it. My reason for disbelief: Holmgren himself. If he's extended Mangini's tenure and the present coaching staff continues to build our team the way Ammo describes, Homgren won't NEED to bring in "his guys." Why?

...Mangini & crew BECOME his guys.

End of story.

I've spent some time hanging around the Atlanta, Cincy, and Pittsburgh fan boards. Wow what a difference. Even though our Browns stink, we have more excitement about what is to come and it is noticeable. So I put on the orange glasses, order another cup of the Kool Aide, and take a ride on that weird and wonderful torpedo that is the Cleveland Browns.

We lack talent. Yeah, so what? At least this year we're dishing out some pain. The wins will come if we just keep dishing out the punishment.

Nice stuff man.

We won't win without "building a team"....some fans aren't patient for that effort. I am (for now ).

The culture IS important, but a change in coach all but guarantees a change in culture, at least to a degree. Wherever possible, the new coach will want *his* guys and to put *his* stamp on things.


Tomlin walked into an environment that wasn't just established - it was carved into stone over the last few decades... and I have little doubt that the Rooney's "explained" a few things to him that were not going to change.

Here, we've barely set it in Jell-O at this point... our culture will be very easily swayed and changed with any change at the top.

Ya but the important thing is that I think that Holmgren and Mangini are very much on the same page in terms of "changing the culture" of the club. In the end, if those two both like the way things are going, and progress continues to be made, the culture most definitely will change.

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Here, we've barely set it in Jell-O at this point... our culture will be very easily swayed and changed with any change at the top.

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And I think Holmy knows this... which is why I'm of the thninking that Mangini & co. might be here for awhile. 'Tain't the popular line of thought, but it does make sense...

[shrugs]

We can argue about the quality of Mangini’s 2009 draft picks until we’re blue in the face, but the truth of the matter is that Eric Mangini the Head Football Coach should not have to pay for the sins of Eric Mangini the General Manager, forced into the role because former GM George Kokinis was allegedly incapable of doing his job properly. (We can argue whether or not Mangini wanted Kokinis to be his puppet in the first place, but since Mike Holmgren hinted that Mangini was forced into the GM role involuntarily, I’m inclined to believe Holmgren).


Caster Oil tastes good when you have nothing else in the fridge to gulp down huh?
Lets say for a second that Kokinis brain imploded ..Mangini made the picks with who in the War Room???
Who else offered imput on who to draft besides Kokinis?

See I'm not about to buy into that weak defense..you're protecting him for the wasted decisions he made.. even if he was forced into that he could have sought some help ..no he confidently made those choices and the trades, and he's got to bear the responsibilty of it.

There's scouts and personnel people in his war room that tell a guy who to select..he must not have listened to them .
I don't care what fallout either of them had,that still doesn't let him off the hook for making stupid choices and setting this franchise back another year..

Whats Holmgrem gonna say:"the former GM was run outta town and his job taken over?"

Notice he's back in Bmore and nothing's been said?
If he really sucked why would Ozzie take him back?

Dang didn't U guys get a ulcer from Butch Davis doing the exact same thing????

So, you're saying that regardless of whether or not he has us moving in the right direction, he needs to be fried for something he got thrown into doing once and is no longer in charge of doing because it didn't work out well?

Good plan.

Sounds good, looks good on paper.

Just like previous regimes, it all looks good on paper. Yes it's easy now to say what the problems were with previous regimes but the fact remains we all believed at some point - just like now. If this regime fails it will be easy to say that Mangini was a bad coach and Holmgren lost his touch and was here for one last big payday.

At this point we are in the H&H regime for better or worse. So far, looks good so let's hope they keep hitting on the draft.

First of all, way before this I didn't think he should be retained..but since he was I would see how it went.

I said I'm not about to defend him for those draft decisions.
Unless I really find out something concrete that says he was thrown into the situation ,I'll stand on my premise..and even if he was,he had help in there..he wasn't alone in the draft room by himself.

I sure have fried him for that..what don't you get about the lack of skill players on offense?
It's made the offense once again, one diminsional..we don't have a passing attack,there's no freaking way this team will win very many games just running the ball and not having one wideout to throw to.

I'm a marathon type of person..I look at the entire body of work not just one game.I don't get warm and fuzzy because the Browns had leads in all 4 games going into the 4th and managed to only win 1.

i would hope though when Holmgren evaluates Mangini at the end of the year, he only looks at his coaching when he decides if we should retain him.

also, kudos Ammo on the post. well thought out.

Nice work Ammo. Some great stuff.

I do agree with Attack though. We will never be able to put lipstick on the pig that was the 09 draft. Actually, if Mass and Robiske become much better than they look like right now, we may be able to salvage it to some degree. As Django and others have pointed out, it is not only the draft, but the trade of Edwards (I disagree with those that argue a third was the best we could have done), and the way the draft trade was handled. I think we were taken in both those deals in addition to the notorious 2nd round nightmare.

Some disagree, and I understand where they are coming from, but I still believe I'm right.

Putting yourself out on the line should always be encouraged on the board. You did a good job of presenting your point about drafting for mentality, and changing the culture before the skill level. I also liked the point about guys who can actually tackle, but may be a step slower in getting to the ball, being preferable to those in the past. Nothing is more embarrassing than a team that can't tackle. We've been embarrased a lot, but wimpy half hearted attempts at tackling is the worst.

Being tougher, and not making countless stupid mistakes is a good start.

No doubt about it... Holmgren isn't stupid enough to judge a coach based upon his GM'ing skills, especially when the coach hasn't been in that capacity the entire time Holmgren has been here.

Doing so would be pretty insane to say the least.

What I see is Mangini *trying* to duplicate the Patriots success, but coming off looking like a wannabe Belichick.

He's got some good things going for him ... he gets his guys to buy in.

But I'm not sure that he knows what he's doing outside of trying to replicate the N.E. system ... and I don't think he has enough upstairs to do so.

aah "the process"...brain meets last straw

Btw, can't wait for the dreams of some posters after next sunday when we beat the Bengals....because we will most likely beat them, it's a great spot and the Bengals aren't all that....just another mirage that will make them believe for the rest of the season, lol

That's what I said before the Cincy game...and that said, I'm all over ATL -3 this sunday. Come Kickoff I'll become a 6yo rooting for my Browns but as long as I can think realistically I'm putting my money on ATL. It's not a great spot since ATL won 2 close ones in a row and now travels to a hungry AFC team ut anytime you can grab a clearly better team with better coaching within a FG you do it

If there's anything good out of the Mangini era, it's the predictability betting Browns games , I'm somewhat like .800+ since he took over...thank you Eric

Back to the process....the process will stagnate around 4-6 wins again and I'm sure I'll have to read some homer telling me it's real progress and process doom day is looming .....meanwhile I watch football games and assess them honestly

You got to remember...ATL. is not a very good road team.
Altho they are in the top 10 in the league on OFF. & DEF. I believe we have a very good chance in this game...JMHO.

Great thread/post Ammo!

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Patience is the state of endurance under difficult circumstances, which can mean persevering in the face of delay or provocation without acting on annoyance/anger in a negative way; or exhibiting forbearance when under strain, especially when faced with longer-term difficulties

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I think we all have giving this a chance, but I can wait a little longer.

Gold star. A+. It is a process. And some of the excitement is genuine; so is the frustration. Fans know lousy play when they see it. Have seen plenty of it for years now, so overreactions are understandable. It is headed up. I am willing to be patient; think we can do better than we have so far. It is only one win,but it is a win, and that level of play would arguably have netted a few notches in the other games. I want to see us take it to people even more. But it is watchable and we are probably getting what we can out of this roster.
Solid post IMO.

Well written,I was about to say you needed a link to post the article.
Now,the bad part.
Change the name and someone has wriiten the same thing,although not nearly as well,about every new regime we've had.
5 years? Ain't happening.In this day and age if you can't turn around a team in 3,you're in the wrong business.
In one year we've gone from the worse team in the league to not the worse team in the league.That is progress,but I'm not sure if it's progress at an acceptable level.

Ammo i'm on board with everything you said...Mangini said it best, first you learn how to practice, then play, then compete, then win.


What I really like is watching this team is that its built to win in December and January right now. We play strong and when all these teams get worn down by December and start to fade we'll be hitting our stride and locking in...just like last year too even...we just started waaaaaay too late.

Look at the teams that have won in the playoffs in the last years...

Ravens, Steelers, Jets, Saints, Giants (in 07), Vikings...

All teams that employ a power blocking and running game mixed with aggressive power defenses geared to stop the run.

there have been exceptions, Cards, Pats, Colts, and Eagles...that have great passing games without a stout running game, but the Cards and Eagles have blitzing defenses that force mistakes.

The Colts and Pats...well, theyre a product of solid coaching and great QBs with GREAT OLs...so theres a common theme.

Good if not great OL, Power Running, Pressure D. Only two teams vary from having at least 2 out of 3 and they have a great QB.



Again...point is, we're building a team that can win in December and January...and the fact that these guys have bought in just make it better. If Mangini was a bum...we wouldnt have guys buying in (see Crennel)

As i said before I like Mangini's philosophy of a smart,physical tough brand of football. I am a huge Rob Ryan fan. Daboll however remains the worst OC in football as he was one year ago. Mangini has failed to address this situation and it more than likely will be his doom.

Our O is great for most of the first half. Most of the first half is generally scripted by the entire coaching staff. seems like once they finish the scripted part and begin to dwell into the game time decision making the browns struggle.


There is really a pattern of total incompetence with the play calling from around the midway point of the first half through the remainder of the game. if we need 8 yards we have 4 recevers running 3 yard curls. If we need 3 yards we have 4 guys running madden type deep routes 25 yards down field and it is completely ignorant.

Mangini can win with his philosophy but we just arent going to win many games with Daboll at OC.

First of all, good post ammo.

Our team is becoming a physically tough team, we are knocking the hell out of people. Hillis putting out DBs, TJ getting a rep as a bad-ass hitter, our O-line is very good even with the right-side issues. I wrote this in another thread last night but I like Mangini as a coach... the 2009 draft is supect - although Alex Mack is working out very well - but now others are in charge, and so far so good with Heckert's drafting.
We have a very small chance of making the playoffs in 2010, but I like our team, they've been fun to watch as compared to most of the last two seasons.

I've got an idea. How about we wait until we've won our second game before we decide the "process" is working.

My only other comment would be that anyone who calls a Browns fan impatient really isn't paying attention. I mean it has been 46 years since our last championship and we still fill the stadium every week.

I hope Mangini is the answer. God knows I'd love to root for a winner for a change. But I think I'll reserve judgement for a few more weeks.

j/c

Nice post....

This reminds me of a post I had read on the other boards. It detailed the process. This was in the preseason of last year. And I went back to try to find it and they had deleted it or something....

At any rate...it talked about Mangini's process. How he would strip down the roster and basically strip it down to bare-bones. And when he identified the players that would still play hard even when we were getting crushed---he would make a note of it...

And he would use those players as teh foundation. The guys who would play hard no matter what. And then he would start building around that. It was a really great post---detailing the whole process and how it would work.

It was the reason that I have had so much faith in Mangini. Cuz I had read this plan and it made a lot of sense.

I really wish I could find it again. But I have looked and apparently it got deleted. The other board kinda sux.

Just to dovetail.

If Mangini "gets it" and we're now a physical football team then why does he have Delhomme throw the ball 37 times against one of the worst run defenses in the league when we held the lead for 3 and a half quarters?

I think that's a legit question.

This past game was the second game where we committed to the run and the Bengals game was the first game we've won all season.

There are way to many questions left to be answered to be too optimistic. But I liked how we closed out the last one......

I hope they "get it" but I'm not convinced they're there yet

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it talked about Mangini's process. How he would strip down the roster and basically strip it down to bare-bones. And when he identified the players that would still play hard even when we were getting crushed---he would make a note of it...

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Now, maybe I read this the wrong way. But if you're saying he stripped the roster just to see who the "character" guys who didn't let getting crushed bother them were then that has to be the dumbest coaching move I've ever heard of and should get any coach fired on the spot.

Here's a thought.....pick (or sign as a FA) really good players who are faster and bigger than your opponents. Then kick the snot out of the teams you play. That would be my "process". Not creating false adversity to check on a guy's character.

As a side note none of this will happen until we get a really good young QB. Even the Rams figured that out. When will we?