DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why "The Process" Will Work if We're Patient

He would not have looked good as a rookie.. but I would take him over anything we had or anything we have now...

disagree!

We didnt get hosed...we were a team desperate for players...desperate for bodies that weren't primadonnas, werent soft, and were able to play the 3-4 and play the style of football that our coach wanted.

With one trade (and a couple subsequent trades) we landed Mack, Elam, Mosley, Coleman, Ratliff, Massaquoi, Francies and Carey...

So...in need of guys that play the style of our coach, we landed 8 guys with one pick. You can argue that these guys arent very good, or that they were wasted picks...but...from One pick (#5) we netted 5 (Mosley, Coleman, Elam, Mack, and Massaquoi) starters last year, and 3 still start (Massaquoi, Elam, and Mack) and Coleman just had his best game as a professional...

How did we get hosed? we dont have a QB...well okay, but we have one now in McCoy as well as steady veterans in Wallace and Delhomme (maybe less steady but he's generally a smart guy)...Maybe Delhomme and McCoy dont pan out as the next Peyton Mannings, but McCoy is a guy that can inspire confidence in his record as a starter. Delhomme has a track record as a QB thats been to the playoffs more times than our team and to more Super Bowls than our team has ever been to...So...we're not as far off on the QB spot as many seem to think.


But to get back to the post.

Saying we got hosed is just plain not true.

We needed bodies that our coach was familiar with, played his style, were into playing his style and we netted 8 and 3 of which still start and 4 of which have been replaced by better talent.

Theres no way you can call that hosed.

I can see what youre saying in that regard...but MoMass, Elam, and prolly Coleman will still be here.


I can see where youre coming from. Long term, it didnt help. But what it did do was help build a base of talent from which to build on. He laid a foundation with that trade. He may have put down one load bearing beam in Mack, but the rest was a foundation of which to build upon, and we're already building upon that as evidenced by our ability to replace Francies, Ratliff, and the others that are gone.

While you look at those as misses or bad moves...i think that what we did was take those stop gaps and instead of using them for 3-4 years...we used em for a year...that could make it look bad...but i think it was a good thing.

Its about building the house, last year laid the foundation, and i think the trade did that. On paper...it may look iffy, but in terms of functionality...it worked out for us.

again 5 of the guys we got there started all year. and 3 still do...getting 3 starters with the #5 pick cant possibly be bad...disagree? Looking at it from a functionality standpoint?...3 starters from 1 pick... +

If i have ignored you in the past, my apologies clem..I'll try my best to answer your questions:

Reasons as Head Coach I want Mangini gone IE performance as Head Coach

1. Hanging on to Brian Daboll - this guy is the worst OC we have EVER had here...this guy makes me cry for Mo Carthon and thats pathetic in itself...this guy is terrible..your trying to tell me Mangini can't see it? Daboll is bad..very bad..again Mangini's ego will not allow him to admit he is wrong and he will side with this clown at all cost...Daboll is a terrible OC..Mangini should have already canned Daboll and atleast allowed Carl Smith to take over (Atleast Smith has called plays before) Daboll runs a high school passing game for crying out loud, his play claling is unimaginative...he NEVER throws out of running formations, and he NEVER runs out of passing formations (Like other teams do just to mix it up, keep D's honest) he is very good at outsmarting himself, and his lack of half time adjustments on O is just smells of incompetence.

2. Playing Jake Limping around in a game like a Gimp - Jake was hurt bad obviously..he has missed how many games? Yet Mangini just kept marching him out there in the Tampa game..that is moronic no matter how you slice it...the Head coaches Job is to do whats best for the team and for the well being of his players...Mangini didn't have the spine to stand up and tell Jake "Sit down! your hurt!" and put Seneca in the game..its important to understand that Jake was not being pulled for performance..he was being pulled because he was freakin hurt...when is the last time you seen Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren, or even Parcells or Bellichik march a QB out on the field limping and hurt in the fasion Jake was?...hmmm....they wouldn't do that! because they know its counter productive and just not smart. The whole fiasco with Jake tells me Mangini hasn't learned one darn thing from the Farve affair in NY..yes he hid Farve Injury from the leg and just kept on playing him with a messed up arm...its dumb...Mangini doesn't have the guts to stand up and take charge..the guy is not a leader, if he was he would have made the right calls in these situations and sat these guys down because their hurt period....

3. Poor Leadership qualities Mangini's leadership qualties are terrible..this guy is not a leader...I don't care how Bellichik acts, I care about how Mangini acts. He is our coach. The guy does not rally his men. when things go south, Mangini stands there with his hands across his chest with a scoul on his face. This does not inspire confidence in your players.

you NEVER see Mangini going up and down the sidelines inspiring his men...this is what leaders to...the little things go a long away to making guys want to fight...do you realize just telling a worker under you that "Hey your doing a good job keep it up" does wonders for moral...when the other team scores Mangini should be going down the sidelines to all his players telling them things such as:

"don't worry about the score guys, we got plenty of time you guys are doing good..its a mistake we will get past it, lets just out out there and play our game. You are all my guys, your heare because I picked you, we can win this thing, lets go to it!"

you never see Mangini trying to inspire his men...listen to some of the soundbites of Cowher and Marty, even Tomlin today...those guys DO what i said above..they do it "during" the game on the sidelines...this guy has poor leaderhsip qualities and he doesn't inspire his guys...its evident.

during his press conferences...if he was a "leader" he would shoulder 100% of the blame for the loss...when asked he would say:

"The loss is my fault, I call the plays, I make the subsitutions, this loss is all on me period"

He talks about INTS, fumbles, etc..those are part of the game, sure they are part of the loss, but he should shoulder the blame himself...he throws his players under the bus talking about "Well if jake doesn't throw that INT" that should have NEVER been said...

A real leader takes ALL of the blame when things are bad, and gives ALL of the accolades to his players when they win...being a leader is a thankless job, its a job no one really likes...do you think a general blames his men when they lose a battle? nope..Generals are the same kind of leaders as football coaches, just different things are on the line lives vs sports, but the basics of how you run the operation are the same...the general praises his men when things go well, and shoulders all the blame when things go bad...Mangini does not do this...this guy is a poor leader plain and simple....Mangini can't act like Bellichik because he is not bellichik and bellichik is just a super smart guy...Bellichik is really the only Parcells equal there....from that tree..Bellichik just a one of kind smart guy and Mangini just doesn't have Bellichik's brain thats all there is too it, and he needs to quit acting like mini-me.

4. He is too conservative and plays too much play not to lose He does this too much...He goes away from whats working for him the minute he gets a lead..the fact he quit giving hillis the ball in the Tampa game is an example of this...sol what Hillis fumbled, you have to ge tback on the horse and keep riding when you fall off...Mangini just bails the minute something goes out of plan..there was no reason in that game to quit giving hillis the ball NONE so what if he fumbled, it happens..Bellichik didn't quit giving Hoard the ball just because he fumbled sometimes...its this type of stuff...this whole playing not to lose...I blame both Daboll and Mangini for this...its Mangini's fault..he allows this to go on...how much longer must we put up with Daboll?

The punt against Baltimore was a prime example of this...Tomlin goes for it, Holmgren himself goes for it, Cowher goes for it..Mangini punts....you have to "play to win the game" that was the game right there, I knew it, the whole staduim knew it...If Mangini went for it and didn't get it...I wouldn't be mad at all..atleast the guy was playing to win the game at that point..I would have no problem with it...but that was just playing not to lose...you can't do that..not with this current team...we should have went for it...its called playing to win the game....

From what i seen of Mangini in NY, and what I have seen of him here...he is just not a good coach...the guy is not a good coach...

As for Gruden..he is one of many options, it don't have to be him..in fact I wouldn't mind bring in a young up and coming college coach that Holmgren can mold into his personal protoge...if holmgren doesn't want to take over himself

This is a personal opinion..I still say Holmgren wants to coach here..the guy wants one more chance at a Bowl...he isn't getting any younger..he is already here...Randy told him he can coach if he wants to...why not? As i said he isn't getting any younger...If Holmgren takes up the headset..i'll be thrilled...I won't say jack squat because I know Holmgren himself is a very good coach and knows what he is doing..Mangini...he don't...if Mangini would have been drafting, he would have taken Kyle Wilson over Haden..thank god Heckert over-ruled him on that one...nice try by Rob Ryan though trying to cover it up LOL!

As side note

It would be nice if Mangini actually grows up this year and grows into a head coach for a change...8-8 is not asking for much

in fact if he could go 8-8 this year, stay, then go 8-8 next year i would be thrilled....500 football would be something new here...im not asking for much...asking for a .500 team is not asking for the world..

Knight: thanks for getting back to me. I was starting to think you had me on "ignore this poster" setting or something... (hehe)


I get what you're saying about Mangini, in terms of his being a coach. I get it, but I've drawn somewhat different conclusions.

Hanging on to Daboll: This one I have to call you on, bud. You see, the decision to keep Daboll for a second year wasn't in Mangini's purview. It was Mike Holmgren's job to decide who stays and who goes. Now, Mangini could have lobbied hard to keep BD on behind Holmy's closed office door, but the bottom line is that the team president is responsible for us seeing these particular people on the sidelines. You can't really legitimately hang this one on Mangini, because he wasn't a GM, club president or anything else but a head coach when this decision was made. If Daboll's a douche and still here, you disdain should be aimed in the right direction- Mike Holmgren.

In terms of gametime decisions, I've seen him do things that I certainly wouldn't have done. A few have made me scratch my head, but I can say that of every coach I've ever watched. And you know what? I actually agree with some of the specifics you mentioned. Not pulling Jake was a big one. Shutting down Hillis after he put the pig on the carpet was a bit less in severity, but still was a call I disagreed with.

Your point about leadership qualities can be debated too, albeit respectfully. I'll put it this way: I don't think EM is trying to 'channel his inner Belichick' at all. I think he's really that cold and emotionless while on the job. No "Mini-Me" here. EM's style is genuine. Look- different coaches have different styles. We all loved watching Marty. He was passionate, devoted to his boys, and put his heart on his sleeve every day. It made for good theater, but it also worked for him because it truly was him. The players could feel that he was genuine. Dick Vermiel and Marv Levy were the same way. On the flip side, you also have coaches like Paul Brown and Tom Landry, who could have been replaced bu marble statuary on the sideline, and noone in the stadium would have noticed the difference. Can you say to me with a straight face that they were any less good at their jobs because they weren't animated and all "rah-rah" during a game? Can you say that their teams played any less hard for them than Chucky's or Cowher's or Hank Stramm's?

Mangini's style isn't for everyone, I'll grant you that. But to mistake a buttoned-down style for a lack of substance is a colossal miscalculation. Some teachers inspire their students with lots of praise, pep talks and emotion. Some teachers (and let's not kid ourselves... an HFL HC is a teacher above almost everything else...) withhold compliments, set high bars and give out praise only sparingly. Both tactics work, so long as they are a natural extension of the teacher's personality. (As I was growing up, I took music lessons from both kinds... and I can tell you this much: both were effective in their roles as educators as long as they brought substance to the lessons. Style was always secondary.) Mangini's not your cup of tea- I get that. No problem with me- different folks are attracted to different styles. But one things certain: No matter how bad things were last year, no matter how dismal the ass-whoopin' was, our players never quit on a single down of play in the entire 2009 campaign. And this year, win or lose, they're bustin' out the whoopin' sticks and playing football with real gusto. If you're going to be fair in your assessment of a coach, you can't just go by how many "NFL Films moments" he generates during the course of a game. you MUST look at the team's performance in that game. I don't think the Browns NEED sidelines pep talks during the game... they seem to want to work hard for this man, every day/all day. That's gotta count for something. After years of watching our players sleepwalk through games and phone in entire seasons after an 0-2 start, this team's attitude is truly refreshing. SOME of that has to fall to Mangini, if we're being fair. Just sayin. We can disagree about this, and it's cool... but all I'm saying is that you can't judge him as a bad leader based on the little snippets of sidelines time you see during a game. The real team-building leadership happens between Monday and Saturday... something we never get to see.

He plays to not lose: Agreed. One hundred percent. I want to see him fix that over the course of this year. I'll be fair here. If I can defend Mangini's character or style for some parts (like I did in my previous point), I can pick at him for others. Noone is perfect. It seems to be a natural trait of his, because it's shown up often enough to look like a trend. He'll allow his OC to go into a shell, and start calling plays that leave us vulnerable to comebacks. At some point he'll need to step up and take over in a game, and that will teach him something he hasn't learned yet.... especially if we win. The good news is: he's got Mike Holmgren to help him with this. Much has been written about the professional relationship these two have forged, and all those reports describe an open door, mentor/student relationship between H and M. Holmy knows how to take chances and make bold, dynamic moves. He'll give EM the benefit of his decades of experience... and see if any of it takes. After that, and ONLY after that, will MH make a decision regarding Mangini's long-term prospects here.

I'll finish up here with a personal opinion of my own: I think the Browns have a good chance to become the next New England Patriots with this present lineup (or at least most of it. Daboll's still big "?"). Yep, I said it. And with conviction. The similarities are too numerous and striking to ignore. The beginnings are very much the same (perennial cellar-dwellers), the personalities involved are very similar (icy, cerebral, 'process-oriented' HC's on their second coaching assignments), and a team that's a pieced-together patchwork of aging vets (to teach) , talented upstarts (to learn/produce a spark), and a central core of hard-nosed, blue collar types to knock heads and take names while we build. I think it's the start of a great ride, right now- and we fans get to see it built from the ground floor. and yes, to answer the unasked question... I think EM can be the coach to do it.

Final word: Please don't infer from this post that I'm some EM pimp. I had NO opinion about the man whatsoever before he came here, because he wasn't associated with the Browns in any way. I took him at face value, and only began my assessment of him once he took the job. That p.o.v. has allowed me to watch him without NY preconceived notions whatsoever. Dude was a blank slate for me last year. Didn't love him or hate him... because I really knew nothing about him. That's why I was so surprised at the level of emotion I saw on this board last year. EVERYONE seemed to have an opinion about him but me. I simply waited and watched, before making an judgement. And my judgement is still mixed... about 65/35 in favor.

He may not be the perfect coach... but under Holmy, and with Heckert stocking our shelves, he just may end up being the perfect coach for us. I like the triumvirate we have now- and I like a lot of what I'm hearing regarding their working together. Smart, professional, businesslike. Just what we've needed for so long.

I'm glad we banged heads on this subject, Knight. I think our disagreement about Mangini may be due to us coming at his role from two different vantage points. I don't think you're wrong to have come to your conclusions... I just think I'm "righter" about mine....

When grading out Mangini and the job he is doing here in Cleveland I have maintained that much more will be involved with the evaluation process then strictly wins and loses.

The fact that Mangini is still here is testament to that fact, if the over riding trump factor was strictly confined to wins and loses I think we all know Mangini would have been let go last January.

It blows me away when I read posts that seemingly acknowledge that in many instances we are out manned by much of the competition we face this season yet with the next breath it’s win this many or get out. Sorry guys it just doesn’t work that way.

Some of the factors that will go into evaluating Mangini and his staff will include team play and yes their level of talent. If you think that Holmgren isn’t acutely aware of the talent level of this team and that he doesn’t have a handle on what it will take for us to handle some of the competition we will face your fooling yourselves.

The list:

How well does he run training camp?

Is he organized?

Is he a good teacher?

Are his players and coaches able to transfer his teachings to the football field?

Does he communicate well with his coaches and players?

Do his people understand their rolls and do they seek his advice when they have questions?

Is the team getting better or worse?

Does he game plan well?

Player development?

Does he make adjustments in game and out when problems arise?

What was the level of competition that we faced on whole over the course of the season?

How did we do in these games regardless of whether we won or lost?

What is the general feeling on the team? Are they happy to come to work? Do they work hard? Are they dedicated? Does he inspire his players and coaches to always do better?

Is the coach instilling confidence in his players and getting the best out of the talent he has at his disposal?

Is he reversing the hang over effects associated with a losing program?

How do his players respond when they lose? ie. do they work harder, do they bitch and whine? Do they put their heads down and work harder?

Is the coach able to get them refocused and back at work after a win or lose?

How do his players respond after a win?

Has his team taken on an identity?

And finally what is the wins –vs- loses record?


I’m more the certain I missed a few good points but the idea that all coaches are judged strictly based on record is foolish especially when dealing with a team that has been stuck in a losing culture for so long.

Again the scope of things that Holmgren looked at when he decided to keep Mangini and in essence make him a Holmgren guy had a lot to do with the questions I would be asking.

I don’t want to make it sound like I’m minimizing the importance of winning, it’s nearly everything. But there has to be more that goes into evaluating a coach when they are trying to turn a losing program into a winning one.

If winning where the only gauge by which to judge the job a coach is doing when they take over a program most of the great coaches of this generation would have never made it… So the gauge by which you measure a coach has to be adjusted and allowances have to be made, after all your handing the coach a loser the rest of the league isn’t holding still waiting for you to catch up. It’s a process and it takes time and patients. I personally can wait a bit longer as long as I see this team continuing to improve and grow and play hard. And they are!

At this point there are a great many more reason to continue on the course we are on then there are reason to abandon the course and wipe the slate clean yet again….

Even if Gruden needs a job……………..

JMHO

BTTB

Even if Gruden needs a job……………

Got that right.

I'm a simple kind of guy ( Fewer words is better )

All about , running , blocking, tackling and W's & L's .. that's it !

Well, you said we passed on a franchise QB. I assume you were referring to Sanchez (that's probably nitpicking on my part).

However, I also take exception to you saying Sanchez didn't do that bad, or could've been more stable here. You're saying that the guy who had a worse QB rating (mentioned on this board several times) than our Quinnderson combo for the year while playing for (arguably) the most QB-friendly team in the NFL (their defense, their running game, and a year later, their receiver corps) would've given us stability? Sorry, I don't buy that.

Tangent: I'm not a fan of Sanchez at all. I think he was over-hyped and made the smart decision to declare when he did because he would've been swallowed up by the QB class that came after him (this past draft). I don't think he's starter-quality, but we'll see how this season goes. He's had a couple good games these past few weeks, but the rest of his roster is simply unreal. In my opinion, he's the weak link on that team.

Getting to the point, Sanchez may grow into being a starter quality QB, but he definitely would NOT have been that (and wasn't) last year.

I think right now Mangini has players that are not the most talented football players and getting them to play as a very cohesive unit. It seems as though the players have bought in.
The bolded line in King's post is what I wish to address here.

In this one line, he's perfectly described the New England Patriots

What New England team are you talking about? The Patriots were in the super bowl before coach b arrived and many thought they should've made it back if it wasn't for lackluster coaching by Pete Carrol. I know the Browns picked up a nice win over the bengals but lets not get it twisted. Mangini still is confused with the identity of the Browns. The end of last year I thought we figured out who we were then we come out this year with a qb who hasn't been in awhile and try to toss the ball all over the place. Mangini still has a lot to prove and I really don't care anyway I just wanna see the Browns succeed and I kno with Holms and Heckert we will

Some of the factors that will go into evaluating Mangini and his staff will include team play and yes their level of talent. If you think that Holmgren isn’t acutely aware of the talent level of this team and that he doesn’t have a handle on what it will take for us to handle some of the competition we will face your fooling yourselves.

Does he make adjustments in game and out when problems arise?





Mangini and Holmgren discuss philosophy, strategy and gametime moves more often than most head coaches and team presidents would, due to Holmgren's background.
We all should aware of this..

What is most troubling is the Browns inability to maintain for 60 minutes. For the first half, this team has shown time and time again they are prepared to execute the pre-game plan.
I've discussed this at length too many times..

As this team gets deeper into the game the tables turn on them. The offense sputters and burns out..This is when better overall talent rises to the occasion, as well as a coaching staff adjusting to what scheme is being played against them.

The issue is the inability to offset adjustments of the opposition in the second half. ..thats seeing what the opponent is now doing and making a counter move..the Browns are not able to do that and thats inexcusable.

I think your definitely right about the talent showing in the second half. To me the first half or most of it is scripted. After that it's man vs. man, talent vs. talent. And we don't have the talent. Whether that be players and/or coaches.

Just wondering ...

Anyone agree that not only is it a game of "talent" instead of "scheme" in the second half ... but its also a game of "depth"....?

It doesnt matter how good Peyton Hillis is (for example) or Alex Mack or Lawrence Vickers ... because after 40 or 50 snaps (not runs but snaps) they get tired ... and the problem is even if Pittsburgh (or baltimore, or Cincinnati, or anyone with arguable depth) has their starters get tired on the defensive front 7 .. is our 6th or 7th o-lineman good enough to go up against their 4th dlineman or 5th linebacker?

I think part of this process is as we phase out the "hank poteats" and "John St. Clairs" on our team .. we might actually have Womack as the 6th lineman in a year ... and might actually Sheldon Brown as the 5th DB in a year ...

Why is this important? Because even if we have upgraded / filled in some of our holes ... if we continue this "process" I truly believe that barring major blown draft picks or injury we can create real depth which is needed to compete in the third and fourth quarters ...

Let's pretend Montario Hardesty and Shawn Lauvao pan out by next year ... then that could already have helped us win a few games this year potentially ... by having someone just to spell Hillis and Pashos/St. Claire (by letting Womack move to RT) ...

Yes we still have holes ... but as we fill those it will also be AMAZING to say "wow ... our first and second backups were starting for us a year or two ago... "

We don't want to into the "Why we don't have any talent" subject do we????

Figured you'd be the first to reply.....a lot of does fall his shoulders..how many times must I repeat this?
Every GM or goof-ball who's played GM has responsibilty to bear for this mess.
After Phil left ,the direction could have improved...it didn't.

Let me ask U or anyone a different question..hows that tradedown with the Jets looking right now?

Who benefited more from it?

The Jets did..they knew how to use the new picks..

Now let me clarify something..I loved the multiple picks that were aquired,...I hated how they were used..
U and a whole bunch of people just can't seem to discern that the whole second round picks ,all 3 of them are looking horrible..Veikune released..Robo isn't doing anything (appears to be a bust) and Mass is looking like a overrated WR (overrated by Mangini and posters in here)who is a project.
Even Maiva doesn't look like anything worth keeping..
I equally disliked the players overall that were included in that trade..didn't want Elame/Ratliff at all...but your HC had to have them.
Told U guys last year he never got enough out of those trades..

The simple fact is those jettisoned players from the Jets didn't slow them down one bit did it?

Mangini had a chance to turn those picks into a solid draft but he failed..the players having the most impact were brought in later last season..

LOL! ... No no no haha ...

What I am saying overall is part of the process of building hardworkers is having the backend players be able to compete. Which is why I am completely happy to have our #5 and #6 DBS right now be Joe Haden and Mike Adams ... and our #4 DLineman be either Coleman or Robaire ...

The problem is ... who is our #2 RB? (side note .. I dont want to turn this into a Jerome Harrison thread lol) ... who is our #6 OLineman? ... Are we really one injury away from having Steiny and Yates at LT and LG?

So Im just saying Kudos to Mangini AND Heckert for addressing the needs to create a team and not just starters ... BUT it *should* continue to improve if we can continue to bring in talent.

The day that we have guys who are starters now either fighting for starting spots or simpy becoming backups will be the day that we can score more points in the 3rd and 4th quarter than the first 2 ...

Thats fine building up the backend of the roster but you need above average talent at the skill positions, or all you will have is essentially role players.
And it appears the coach has issues with handling the 'quirky" personalities that a lot of the skill players have..ie ,WR..he said he was happy and o.k with the receiving core going into this season and the GM backed him up...
Really?
Gee,they're really nice kids ..but thats it..there's no edge to them at all..they can't even get separation from man coverage and Mass continus to run his routes poorly.

I'll say one thing thats been consistant with the Browns from '99 ..our QB/WR's and running backs never improve from 1 year to the next.They always regress.Then they're traded away.

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how many times must I repeat this

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you can stop anytime you like.. we've heard it all before,, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, it's still manginis fault..

It's like a freakin broken record

You're whole post is based on last years "Mangini the GM" ,that guy got fired already, get over it, move on, he doesn't make those decisions anymore.

You're whole post is based on last years "Mangini the GM" ,that guy got fired already, get over it, move on, he doesn't make those decisions anymore.

He didn't make any decisions when he was brought in..Mangini did..that draft was his.
Did you even remember when Kok said he didn't even know about the Edwards trade??
Yeah but lets absolve Mangini..keep trying..
Why don't U tell me why we don't have talent on the offensive side of the ball?

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And it appears the coach has issues with handling the 'quirky" personalities that a lot of the skill players have.

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This makes me think of the guy/team Mangini was mentored under. The Pats started building their team with alot of no-name guys that were just hard working no nonsense type football players, it proved to be successful in building a dynasty. It wasn't until that culture had been solidified before they brought in a guy like Moss (who coincidently enough they never won a SB with) because the team he went to was MUCH bigger and PROVEN then he was. I see the same foundation being created here, we're under the first year of a new FO and not even half way through the second year with our NEW HC.
This team will NEVER go anywhere if we're not patient enough to let this thing play out.

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Why don't U tell me why we don't have talent on the offensive side of the ball?

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Because we've drafted terrible in past years, BUT, I liked this last draft so far with Holmgren and Heckert calling the shots and I believe right now we're in the best position to greatly improve the overall talent on this team as long as we give the new guys more than one off season to do it.

I'm curious.

Would you give up Ward and Haden (and this years 1st) if you could get Bradford? Would you give them up for a franchise QB?

Lets assume that Bradford continues to improve. So far he has shown all the qualities to be a franchise QB. I realize that could change.

The thing with your post that I see is that those who want to improve the team and can't see beyond that, tend to look at things from a "two good defensive backs" perspective. Those of us who have been waiting for 50 years tend to look at things from a "what is going to get us into and winning the Super Bowl" perspective. You have two different ways of looking at what is important.

Until we have someone who has all the qualities to play quarterback at the highest level I will have a hard time getting really excited about what we do.

The question would be what the rest of the draft would look like as well I suppose ...

If we had no ward, no haden, no 1st round this year ... you can assume that we might have still packaged more picks from our later rounds to move up a few times? Maybe Ward would still be on the board for us to go up and grab him with one or two of our 3rd rounder (cuz we aren't taking McCoy) .. If not .. there were still some safeties available ... but we would most likely still end up with at least 1 safety ... it would be interesting to watch elam and larry asante back there with wright, mcdonald and brown ..

Attack doesn't need me to defend him or his positions should I say , But , We have been saying " forget about it " since 1999 for crying out loud ... Thats the problem.

NRTU Water,
I just want to make a comment about the title of this tread.

What does " The Process" really mean? Is it the one that Eric started last year, or is it the one that Mike started this year?

A team is as good as it's players, I don't care whose process it is. This team has a lack of play makers and the idea that we need to follow the Bill Bellyach system of getting rid of anyone with talent that makes a fuss is stupid.

Players are just like us fans there are many personalities and that group makes us what we are, some of the best and most abused fans in the NFL!

Talent is what wins and coaching is second rate, and believe me ours is second rate.

We seem to want to turn this thing around through the draft but we all know that is a crap shoot. And how do you fill so many (lack of talent holes in the draft) and still be competitive?

When was the last time we signed a huge free agent (and do not make me puke and say Delome) or a talented player that has a case of the ass that might wake up a losing franchise.

Just want to know when did football become a sport of church boys and get away from the naughty ones?

i don't think it's "church boys" as much as it is guys who want to win, who are up for the sacrifice.

i believe i read a few years ago an article with an interview with k2, when he was still a cleveland brown, the reporter asked him, what would you rather have, a super bowl win, or a league mvp? he said mvp. at least he was honest. but it's stuff like that where i think mangini doesn't want it.

it's a hard-nosed approach, it's been ugly through a year and a half, but i really think it will pay off, i think it's the perfect attitude for the team and the city.

this team is already better than any of the crennel coached teams. the butch teams actually weren't all that bad but i think in the long run this will work over butch's plan.

but i think going in, mangini knew this was going to be ugly and holmgren has to know it too. i hope he does.

i kinda like that our coach is an a-hole. i would rather him be that, than a guy everyone loves which will backfire (crennel) or a bumbling coordinator (norv/wade)

i think we can see the big difference with the team now versus last year. the guys who didn't buy into it were gone, and as soon as that happened the team played much better. and this year they have been tough all year. things haven't bounced their way offensively, but i think eventually that is gonna turn. the schedule has been borderline unfair as well. i think the teams we've played have a winning % over like. 750 or something. it's crazy. but like i said in a different topic, no better way to gain experience than lining up against the best week in and week out, and we've gone through it and guess what? we have the champs lined up sunday, a bye week, the patriots, then the ny jets, you can't get better experience than that.

I just finally read this post. Where the heck have I been??

Ammo, it is posts like that, and the thread that follows that I enjoy and come to this board to read.

Very nice post.