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you guys are acting like "if Django said it, it's not true." A lot of what he's saying about Harrison is true.
I didn't say that,, what I said, in short, is that Django has a tendency to use only the stats that prove his point..
And they don't always tell the whole "current" story
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you guys are acting like "if Django said it, it's not true." A lot of what he's saying about Harrison is true.
more or less, i am just tired of hearing him go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it
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I think the biggest issue is that certain people find certain stats important and other stats unimportant, and certain bits of info worthwhile while others arent...
I personally look at when talking about a running back...and think 3.5ypc is a winning number. The reason being that if you give a guy the ball 3 times in a row...chances are you got a first down.
I look at Jerome Harrison and I thank him for his end of the season explosion...but i look at the rest of his career and I wonder why he couldnt get on the field when Crennel was here (was he an egomaniac too? It's this reason django, that i struggle with the Mangini is an egomaniac and Harrison is a perfect example) and he hasnt been active since arriving in Philly even though McCoy had cracked ribs upon his arrival (even though he has shown that doesnt matter to him).
Sure...the kid has some good explosion, and i havent looked at his stats deep enough...but i wonder if you took out the outliers of his runs and see what his average would be. Get rid of his 5 worst and 5 best runs and see what comes up. I think that provides an accurate picture.
When it comes to Harrison...IMO...and Django i'm hopin we can find some common ground on this as fans...that the kid had potential, and barring a 4 game window he hasnt been particularly effective in his career...was the 4 game streak a futuristic trend for him? or was it an abberration?
Do you think that maybe...maybe Harrison got a bit soft after exploding last year thinking he was good enough to not need to work? I only state it because his work ethic has come into question in the past...thats very possible, and couple poor work ethic with a new sense of entitlement is a recipe for strugging.
Has Mangini slighted Harrison some? absolutely...is it because he is an egomaniac? eh...maybe but i wouldnt say that. I think he ran into a perfect storm of bummer by struggling in the preseason, feeling he deserved something (which in the NFL, you dont...you deserve first crack and thats it), and Peyton Hillis coming in and playing great football. Then as things soured he very well couldve become an issue.
Is Mike Bell a better player? when it comes to potential...no. When it comes to consistency...i think so. Bell has been exactly what he is everywhere he's been and will be that for us too. Thats a guy just shy of 4 yds per carry, and a good compliment and a good spot duty player but never a feature back. Thats fine...because we have Hillis and we have plans of starting Hardesty if he can get healthy. Furthermore...Harrison has now struck out with his 2nd coaching staff. If he doesnt catch on in Philly...he may be looking at his very last contract next year wherever it is. Maybe it clicks for him that he has to earn everything all the time and he turns out great and we lose out overall...but i dont think it wouldve clicked here. entitlement leads to failure.
As for Davis to Clayton...its another potential versus steady. James Davis has enormous potential to be successful but hasnt produced. Clayton has bounced around, but has some staying power (he is still in the league) and gives us a leg up on New England for the price of 3 games. If he doesnt show anything...theres another back that we could hire that can be marginally successful...in fact, Chris Jennings is still out there, and hes done more for us than Davis...and won us a division game (which Harrison didnt do).
Django...I'm asking you as a dissenting opinion...any common ground there? anything you can agree with?
I still think that by getting these solid yet unspectacular guys...it allows for a style of team that can weather a polarizing figure. If he can get his guys to galvanize...then we can add a personality. They seem to be galvanizing, and coming together and playing for the same reason...together. Thats what I see, and it seems like many are seeing...I hope youre seeing it. Because its definitely there...read player quotes (sorenson this past week, our early season quotes following losses), see our new body language (EW21 not withstanding (who i think is being misused)), and look at the general stability (in terms of plan, mentality, type of player)
Once a team persona has been established, then you can add a uber-talented guy that has a certain attitude because the players will force him to conform to the team mentality (look at TO in Philly (the super bowl year, his first), at Vick in Philly, at Moss in New England, Roethlisberger to an extent). That is the model we are building upon.
It can be done the other way. Manning in both New York and Indy, the new Jet City roster, SJax, and other guys that lead their teams. You can have a supremely talented guy and build around him, or build a certain way for your stars...but generally that guy has leadership qualities and the team adopts his mentality which is strong or he defers to the coaches lead like Eli has.
not a horrible idea in my opinion.
common ground? maybe?
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Thaks for reaching out King...here are my answers:
1. 3.5 for a RB is simply bad in this league, that's a fact
2. I don't know Harrison...but I never saw a report on him that he maybe tried to rape a girl or having a DUI, I also never even read a comment from teammates that at least hinted (rolls eye-comment like) at him being a cancer or problem...maybe he doesn't go all out in practice but as long as he has games like he had I don't consider it to be a problem....Rogers is cruising TC and practice ever since he got here....Mangini didn't put him in his doghouse or did he?
3. I think we have gotten worse at RB depth for reasons I just can't understand, thus leading all to either HC-related problem or simply incompetency...because guys like Bell and Clayton can be picked up from the street....I'd get even better ones to be perfectly honest
4. I don't consider it a good idea to have skill position players with similar skill set...I think it's a recipe for failure...and Mangini loves same, same...not only with locker room characters...but also on talent evaluation....result? we have probably the easiest to defend Offense in the league....Stuckey, Robo and Massa are 1 and the same player more or less from a skill set standpoint....I think it's smarter to have thunder and lightning at RB and WR
Also,
On the "Django picked stats on McCoy" saga....I prefaced it, I was totally honest and aware of what I wrote and it's factually 100% spot on....you guys either didn't get my point, are not able to get it or are being dishonest...I'm not sure but I know for a fact what game I saw and the stats reflected it...McCoy got better the more the game got out of hand....look at his a) lead or 1score game stats b) 2 scores down game stats and c) 3 score down game stats....why I divided it this way? Because if you want a franchise QB he has to win games when the game is on the line....mop up stats don't win games..good QBs don'T have that much of a discrepancy....it's early on McCoy, but he's behind on the early trend....and there's next to nothing suggesting franchise QB...and that's just looking at stats....mechanically he is a mess too
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Not that it matters to you, but I don't read your posts any more because you are so biased. It's pathetic really. Any good points you used to make - well, you don't anymore. I don't think hatred is the right word for how you feel - but your posts aren't worth reading.
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That's perfectly ok..to be honest I'd love half the board to put me on ignore just so I don't have to translate back their spinning into what I actually posted...I'm as up front as there is, guess some just can't deal with it and that too is ok and understandable...some just don't want to go as in depth as I want to debate and just want to enjoy a FAN message board with their skirt on and don't want to get ridiculed for wearing that skirt...just don't forget that I wear that skirt too when I post on here, it's just that I don't think it's an argument when discussing and assessning Browns or other NFL games ... go ahead and ignore me please...I agree that it could be a win-win...see? we agree 
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Quote:
Thaks for reaching out King...here are my answers:
1. 3.5 for a RB is simply bad in this league, that's a fact
2. I don't know Harrison...but I never saw a report on him that he maybe tried to rape a girl or having a DUI, I also never even read a comment from teammates that at least hinted (rolls eye-comment like) at him being a cancer or problem...maybe he doesn't go all out in practice but as long as he has games like he had I don't consider it to be a problem....Rogers is cruising TC and practice ever since he got here....Mangini didn't put him in his doghouse or did he?
3. I think we have gotten worse at RB depth for reasons I just can't understand, thus leading all to either HC-related problem or simply incompetency...because guys like Bell and Clayton can be picked up from the street....I'd get even better ones to be perfectly honest
4. I don't consider it a good idea to have skill position players with similar skill set...I think it's a recipe for failure...and Mangini loves same, same...not only with locker room characters...but also on talent evaluation....result? we have probably the easiest to defend Offense in the league....Stuckey, Robo and Massa are 1 and the same player more or less from a skill set standpoint....I think it's smarter to have thunder and lightning at RB and WR
Also,
On the "Django picked stats on McCoy" saga....I prefaced it, I was totally honest and aware of what I wrote and it's factually 100% spot on....you guys either didn't get my point, are not able to get it or are being dishonest...I'm not sure but I know for a fact what game I saw and the stats reflected it...McCoy got better the more the game got out of hand....look at his a) lead or 1score game stats b) 2 scores down game stats and c) 3 score down game stats....why I divided it this way? Because if you want a franchise QB he has to win games when the game is on the line....mop up stats don't win games..good QBs don'T have that much of a discrepancy....it's early on McCoy, but he's behind on the early trend....and there's next to nothing suggesting franchise QB...and that's just looking at stats....mechanically he is a mess too
My opinion is different, and apparently so is the opinion of the coach, GM, and team President.
You keep mentioning Mangini yet fail to mention Heckert has roster control.
If he though Davis or Harrison was a important part, why would he trade them???
Are you telling me the Mangini personality is so strong he now controls the actions of Heckert and Holmgren??
It seems to me both Heck and Eric like power running...you can control that, as I said earlier, but obviously the words were ignored.
It's simply playing percentages. The odds of getting backs who can push for 4 yards often enough is much better than finding guys who can break long runs often enough to negate the slow go of the 4 yard rusher.
The Tortoise and Hare...we all know who won that race.
The point in football is to go for the sure thing as often as possible and not hope you can spring a 60 yarder.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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mechanically he is a mess too
Oh, meant to mention this earlier and forgot. I rewatched the Saints game last night (really, it's just as fun to watch the 2nd time) and payed particular attention to Colt's feet since you had mentioned it.
Yes, on the Stuckey and Vickers throws on the 1st drive, he left his feet. Technically, a no-no, but both throws had zip and were thrown in an absolutely perfect spot both times (I didn't complain about Bernie's throwing motion because he was accurate with it).
Now, I did notice that after that, throughout the game, anytime he had pressure (and the Saints were bringing it all game), he was stepping back to get more space to make this throws. These throws ended up not being accurate. This is a very bad mechanic to have as you are supposed to step into your throw even in those cases.
But, on the throws where he had some time, he stepped into them well (Robiskie's 3rd down catch near our goalline, Vickers drop there, Cribbs catch in the red zone, and a few scattered incompletions).
Just my 2 cents on it.
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If he though Davis or Harrison was a important part, why would he trade them???
Well, Harrison is a FA next offseason....if your HC is not willing to play him to spell and safe your cowbell, it's smarter to just get what you can get instead of starting a pi$$ing match with your HC....I'm not happy with Heckert getting Bell, so I'm not absolving him here...I would have preferred a low draft pick..even a 7th rounder because guys like Bell can be signed from everywhere anyday...below AVG RBs are dime a dozen...it'S Bell's 4th team for a reason....Harrison was with us 5 years, and for a reason we all saw too
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It seems to me both Heck and Eric like power running...you can control that, as I said earlier, but obviously the words were ignored.
Maybe Holmgren but don't see it with Heckert...he saw Westbrook in Philly and then drafted McCoy last year
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It's simply playing percentages. The odds of getting backs who can push for 4 yards often enough is much better than finding guys who can break long runs often enough to negate the slow go of the 4 yard rusher.
The Tortoise and Hare...we all know who won that race.
The point in football is to go for the sure thing as often as possible and not hope you can spring a 60 yarder.
At least you make a point...congrats to that....but I simply disagree with you and our coaching here as I posted above....I think it's not smart to have more of the same...sure thing? pushing for 4yds? Hey we already have that in Hillis, right? Look at what the Giants did to the Cowboys with Bradshaw and Jacobs...or the Jets with Greene and LT....or KC with T.Jones and J.Charles or the Raiders with Bush and McFadden...oh look, 4 top 5 rushing teams right there....just further proof that it's more efficient to have 2 backs that complement each other than 2 with similar skill set
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You are acting like Hillis can't get injured or doesn't need some rest.
Change the back, no problem, you don't change the mind set of the O-line.
If you haven't noticed, you don't have a technical blocking line.
We get a hat on somebody and let the back create the hole....we aren't running traps designed to create a hole in the 3 hole. Just hand or pitch right or left and let the big guy decide where to break.
We have a physical line. Let them neutralize the guy in front of them, maybe get some support from a TE or lead back on a backer and let the back plow in to whoever is in their way.
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Skins practice squad for now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Django i cant say im against what you say, but im willing to give our FO more credit.
I think the Clayton signing is to give us a leg up on the Pats, and with Davis contributing nothing...thats fine.
I wanna know what you think on the idea of us building base talent and then bringing in the homerun hitters (offensively and defensively) after we have the team concept established.
That is very much the plan here and I think its going to pay monster dividends. Much like the Bears having their defensive plan and adding a figure like Peppers to put em over the top. Look at our defense. If we add some youth in the DL that can get the job done, get a safety that is comparable to Ward in talent (is Asante that guy?) playing...and hit a homerun on an early draft pick and get a guy that can terrorize QBs like the Giants D has done, or Peppers is doing, or Orakpo did last year, or Mario Williams is doing now...that our D wont be elite?
With the RB situation...right now, we dont have a homerun hitter...Harrison couldve been, but just didnt seem to show it this year and therefore we acquired more base talent. With the WRs its the same thing.
Can we hit homeruns all in one year...no. But i think we're building and itll lead to great things in the future.
Does that sound like a decent theory to you? Establish team...then add the game changer
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Sure...the kid has some good explosion, and i havent looked at his stats deep enough...but i wonder if you took out the outliers of his runs and see what his average would be. Get rid of his 5 worst and 5 best runs and see what comes up. I think that provides an accurate picture.
Just for craps and giggles I decided to basically do what you are talking about. I went back through the game log on ESPN for Jerome and looked at every game from 2006 to present. I added up his longest runs of each game. Then I counted two carries for each game (one for the long run and one for a carry of no gain) that he carried the ball.
The total of his longest runs = 573
2 carries per game = 88
His yards per carry not including the above numbers = 3.87
One interesting note, 41% of his career total yards have occurred on these runs.
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I think the Clayton signing is more than that.
He was on our team..PS...but plucked by the Pats. He was getting reps with our 1st team in practice.
Once the Pats waived him, we got him back....at Davis' expense.
We signed him because we liked him more than any scouting info he might provide.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I've done that before as well and believe it to be telling.....very telling. Some told me at the time I posted about it that you can't take stats away from a player he earned; while I agree with that I do feel if you take away the out of the realm ones you get a more accurate gauge.
For example, in 2008 he had 3 carries vs Buff for 80 yards. One carry was for 72 yards, so that is the exception and not the norm. That left him with 2 carries for 8 yards which is more realistic.
I never did understand the love affair with Jerome H., and it got worse when he ran over the bottom feeders on run D at the end of last season. I'm guessing that Bell would have done the same thing if he were here, and that if Hillis were here he would still be running against some of thoswe squads. *LOL*
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I don't know how good that is.. I mean, it's like saying that the Sacks that McCoy had in the Pitt game were passing attempts and that they should be counted as attempts...
Seems to me to be stats adjusted to fit an agenda.
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I don't think that quite the same.
I think the only point of adjusting the stats in that manner is you give you what you can expect on a typical play, especially when you have a guy who doesn't rack up many mid level gains....say 5-15 yards.
80 yard runs are great, but the reality is you can't count on that.
From a coaching standpoint, I think coaches would rather see 80 yards spread evenly over 15 carries v 75 in one carry and 5 the other 14 carries.
From their perspective you get 3 offensive plays a series... make a 1st down, you get another 3 downs.
It's simply in the percentages. To me you almost have to look at it in terms of baseball stats. Does the guy who hits 30 homers with a .200 BA win more games v the guy who hits 5 homers with a .330 BA?? Obviously much depends on when those homers are hit, or when those long runs occur, but from a percentage basis, the coach is going to be happier with the guy who hits 330 because you can bank on that.
I think as we look at the Browns backs, we are seeing the staff likes to be able to count on the back gaining positive yards on their own if necessary. Three plays, 3.4 yards a play, move the chains, get 3 more plays.
It's more realistic to do that rather than wait for the runner to bust his 70 yarder.
I am sure they have a stat on it somewhere that shows more points are scored off a series of short gains than off 1 long gain.
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Hmm, that does make sense now.. Thanks Peen...
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It's simply in the percentages. To me you almost have to look at it in terms of baseball stats. Does the guy who hits 30 homers with a .200 BA win more games v the guy who hits 5 homers with a .330 BA?? Obviously much depends on when those homers are hit, or when those long runs occur, but from a percentage basis, the coach is going to be happier with the guy who hits 330 because you can bank on that.
I think as we look at the Browns backs, we are seeing the staff likes to be able to count on the back gaining positive yards on their own if necessary. Three plays, 3.4 yards a play, move the chains, get 3 more plays.
1. Harrison's still better than Bell and almost has Hillis' career AVG WITHOUT his longest runs...think about that for a second
2. Going with your baseball analogy....you need both OBP and SLG guys in your lineup, at least the best lineups have both...in baseball the OBP hit at te top (= start out Hillis pounding) and then the HR guys (= when the're tired, speed them up with Harrison)....I've given you 4 top 5 rushing Offenses and they all have a 2 back system of that fashion....it's the most productive
Obviously we opted to go all small ball....in many ways we are the OAK Athletics of football...lots of heart, overachieving, little talent, little playmakers...bottom line: little success, constantly coming up short, year after year
It's not working...time to change up
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I think the Clayton signing is more than that.
He was on our team..PS...but plucked by the Pats. He was getting reps with our 1st team in practice.
Once the Pats waived him, we got him back....at Davis' expense.
We signed him because we liked him more than any scouting info he might provide.
I might be wrong, but Im pretty sure Clayton signed with us in part because we wanted him (duh lol) but in part because HE wanted to COME BACK. As you said he had been taking reps with the first team, and from what I have gathered .. if he shows anything that seems like solid production, we could have a complimentary back to Hillis.
Im not trying to overvalue the guy obviously ... but when he was here, he WAS getting reps over Harrison and Davis ... that might be saying nothin .. but it could be something.
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I think we're getting to where we can acquire these homerun hitters and get the talent we want...but i think we want that established base of solid guys to gain the team concept and mentality that we want before we bring in guys that could maybe kill a team concept without it established
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1. Harrison's still better than Bell and almost has Hillis' career AVG WITHOUT his longest runs...think about that for a second
Not sure where you're getting these numbers from but according to NFL.com Hillis has a career ypc average of 4.6 yards. That's more than half a yard per carry and you already mentioned in this thread how drastic that is.
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My bad, was sure it was a round 4.0...both are at 4.6 now, Hillis is more productive on a carry to carry basis but stil think Harrison was a decent complemetary back....good news is, it's a minor mistake...decent change of pace backs can be drafted late in any draft....sometimes even get lucky with an UDFA
Still think it woudl have been a win-win to let Harrison spell Hillis more since he was in his contract year...even if he elected to sign elsewhere in the offseason (and if he wants big payday and gets it elsewhere we would have qualified for compensation)
Let's just all hope that Hillis won't miss any more time because if he does...we have nothing worthwile now behind him
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I would say that over the past few years I have been a Harrison supporter. I thought he should have gotten more playing time (PT).
I think the issue is that he didn't practice hard. Last year he stated he talked to Mangini who told him to practice full go. He did that, earned PT and produced in game situations.
This year, it looks as if he expected to come in and have the starting job handed to him. When outperformed by Hillis what did he do? Did he step it up? Work harder? Fight for PT? No. He sulked and moped. And when he did get in the game proceeded to give a half-hearted effort. And that is why he is gone.
Am I perfect? No
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Just found this interesting looking back at the box score of TB nd KC games... Harrison got more carries than Hillis....both got 9 carries against TB, against KC JH got 13 and Hillis just 8 then he misses the BAL game due to injury, Hillis obv has his big game there, so he's the top guy now...no problem so far...but now I found some Mangini-like BS comes back ready for week 4...is probable and says this: JH: "I never knew what my role was, so I can't answer that question. ... I don't anticipate anything and I don't expect anything." Mangini said THIS before the same week 4 game: EM: "We really always have approached it that way," said Mangini. "I have confidence in both guys, regardless of which one is running the ball. Jerome will have a good week of practice and we'll have both ready to play." Source for both quotes: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/09/jerome_harrison_playing_the_wa.htmlFollowed me so far? JH got more carries in weeks 1+2, Hillis breakout while Harrison dinged up, JH a little miffed but ready to go and EM saying to utlize both....ok? Now here's again the discrepancy of Mangini-TALK and Mangini-DO: Hillis 22 carries Davis (!!) 4 carries Harrison? 0 carries...and here's Mangini being a freakin hole... "Jerome Harrison, who's recovering from a thigh injury did not show up on offense until the victory formation at the end." Source: http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/10/tj_ward_says_he_wont_change_hi.htmlWow, he got 6 carries vs ATL and was shut down and then traded...wow, I didn't know that...what a freaking classless behaviour....especially to a guy that saved your job and you publicly "endorsed" right before the game...to do him like that....wow, just wow.... If YOUR boss would stick it to you this way, you would flip too...I know I would....what a Q%&$ douche
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i don't know- but maybe the trade was already in the works, and the coaches did not want to get Harrison dinged up and nix the deal.
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1st - I agree that not using JH then putting him in the victory formation was a Dxxx move. Ithought at the time that JH was not getting the ball to give him recovery time. Maybe EM was trying to teach him a lession about something. If so, not how I would have done it and clearly didn't work.
2nd - What would you have EM say. JH has slacked off all off-season and really isn't putting in much effort. If it weren't for those four games last year I would have cut him. Clearly no coach would say that, so take that "Mangni speak" for what it is. Coaches can't always say what they truly feel to the media. Nor should they.
3rd - Interesting info about numbers of carries in those 1st two games. Per your previous points - How does Harrison's YPC compare to Hillis' in those 1st two games? I don't know the answer but it might be enlightening (one way or the other) or at least be interesting.
4th - Re: my point. Perhaps JH felt he should have been the bell cow back and not splitting time with Hillis as he was. I AM making some interpretations and conjecture based on JH's body language and the events that have transpired.
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an important tidbit to add in:
1st game: hillis got most of the carries until his 2nd fumble in the game. at that point, Harrison received every single carry.
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I don't think you can make that comparison Djan....to baseball as you did.
In that case it doesn't apply. Baseball needs table setters and table cleaners.....no doubt. That is the way the game is played.
In football, it doesn't really change anything other than make it easier on the D when the little guys steps in.
Big back ball starst to really take it's toll in the second half of the game. Think back to the best big backs you can remember....for me....I won't count Brown because he was a freak who had everything.....Csonka, Bettis, Harris,Allstott, Riggins, Taylor....those guys usually had 35 or so yards at the half, then 60 or more in the second half. The first half was spent setting things up. The second half spent collecting the toll.
I get it....you want a back who can take it to the house on any given carry.....but for this team with limited receivers and limited QBs due to ability or experience, we need to be able to bank on 3-4 yards a run.
Harrison wasn't a guy you could bank on. he might eventually get his nice run, but 7 times before that we 3 and out....hurting scoring chances and hurting the field position game.....a part of the game people don't usually pay attention to.
Winners and losers are largely determined by who had the most short fields and who had the most long fields.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
1st - I agree that not using JH then putting him in the victory formation was a Dxx move. I thought at the time that JH was not getting the ball to give him recovery time. Maybe EM was trying to teach him a lesson about something. If so, not how I would have done it and clearly didn't work.
2nd - What would you have EM say. JH has slacked off all off-season and really isn't putting in much effort. If it weren't for those four games last year I would have cut him. Clearly no coach would say that, so take that "Mangini speak" for what it is. Coaches can't always say what they truly feel to the media. Nor should they.
3rd - Interesting info about numbers of carries in those 1st two games. Per your previous points - How does Harrison's YPC compare to Hillis' in those 1st two games? I don't know the answer but it might be enlightening (one way or the other) or at least be interesting.
4th - Re: my point. Perhaps JH felt he should have been the bell cow back and not splitting time with Hillis as he was. I AM making some interpretations and conjecture based on JH's body language and the events that have transpired.
I agree with those points, but I think both JH & JD did not fit the mold of the type of RB's Mangini is looking for JD was listed at 218 lbs, but he looked 210 at best and I think that both are speed backs and we are not built around speed so much as guys that are north and south runners who you hope can gain positive yards if everyone else does their part. They don't have to rely on making a defender miss as much as a smaller back has to, to gain positive yards.
If we can gain 3.5 yards per run and not set ourselves back by mental mistakes, then we can put ourselves in manageable 3rd downs and sustain drives and control the clock.
I think we drafted Hardesty, because he could offer the best of both power and speed.
Hillis has good enough speed and if he can't out run a defender he still can carry them on his back
Bell is said to have done a good job when asked to pick up a blitz.
I don't know what he has in the way of hands and I'm not sure you can split him out wide as another WR, like we would have been able to do with Hardesty.
Who knows maybe Thomas Clayton will push Bell to be the back up to Hillis.
He is still an unknown commodity at this point.
If he gives us as much as Jennings did last year, then that would be great.
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Quote:
3rd - Interesting info about numbers of carries in those 1st two games. Per your previous points - How does Harrison's YPC compare to Hillis' in those 1st two games? I don't know the answer but it might be enlightening (one way or the other) or at least be interesting.
TB game:
Hillis 9 for 41yds
JH 9 for 52yds
KC game:
Hillis 8 for 35yds
JH 16 for 33yds
JH's bad stats in the KC game can be partly excused for him getting injured in that game....overall: Hillis: 17 for 74yds, 4.35AVG....JH 25 for 85yds, 3.4yds AVG
...I still don't see how you go from that to doghouse to jerk-move in the BAL game....that's just classless...and I don't care how much JH thought it was his job, even if there was EGO on his part...he never complained publicly, so he must have kept it in house, he even congratulated Hillis for his big game against BAL...you just can't treat a player like that, saying you need him before the game...and then jerk him around, play your 3rd string over him...and on top of that put him in on the kneel down...wtf? That's class A mobbing....Mangini sure loves to let everyone know who's the boss in charge...and he loves to do it to guys who have little leverage....Rogers is cruising TC and practice ever since Mangini got here...think he would treat him like that? What a snake
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I still don't see how you go from that to doghouse to jerk-move in the BAL game....that's just classless...and I don't care how much JH thought it was his job, even if there was EGO on his part...he never complained publicly, so he must have kept it in house, he even congratulated Hillis for his big game against BAL...you just can't treat a player like that, saying you need him before the game...and then jerk him around, play your 3rd string over him...and on top of that put him in on the kneel down...wtf? That's class A mobbing....Mangini sure loves to let everyone know who's the boss in charge...and he loves to do it to guys who have little leverage....Rogers is cruising TC and practice ever since Mangini got here...think he would treat him like that? What a snake
1) You have no idea what went on in the locker room, on the sideline, or during the game.
2) Harrison was hurt. He didn't see the field because he was hurt.
He went in on the kneel down to fill a role, because that's his job and there was no risk of getting injured further. You use this non-factor, nothing play in another attempt to smear Mangini as if there were some sort of Machiavellian machinations going on behind the scenes to hurt Harrison. He went in on the last play. So what? Big deal. Who freaking cares? Only you. You assume facts not on record, and take a quote from Mangini, (an answer a reporter's question,) as evidence of foul play. You don't know anything about it and you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Weak, even for you.
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Does Harrison's contract have any language in it to give him bonuses for games played? If so maybe he was doing him a favor by getting him into the game. 
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I dunno... only using JH in the victory formation is a jerk move. Maybe there's a reason for it, but unless something is said later on, we can only guess about that.
Also, about JH being on good behavior with the media. I watched a couple of his interviews. The guy was throwing out not-so-subtle hints about being unhappy with his PT. Reporters were baiting him ("So how do you feel about the offseason acquisitions?", or something like that), and he took the whole thing and ran with it. I can't really blame the guy because I would be pissed as well, but Mangini probably didn't like his mini-rant too much.
Also, I would've liked to get something a little better for JH. Draft picks would've been nice, and I'm not sure I agree with the people that are saying nobody would give anything for him... the guy has a spot in Canton for his play last year, and there are still a couple RB-starved teams out there.
Overall, I'm bummed that we couldn't work him into our offense. He's a talent that should've been used better (Smash and Dash). I'm not worried about it too much, though, since we'll find his clone late in some future draft at a time when we're looking to pick up those home run threats.
Oh well.... ::shrugs::
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Also, I would've liked to get something a little better for JH. Draft picks would've been nice, and I'm not sure I agree with the people that are saying nobody would give anything for him
Then explain to my why we got what we got? I mean, say what you will about mangini or heckert or holmgren,, they aren't stupid.. if Philly was offering x and someone else was offering x plus y and Z,, certainly they know the difference.
So I believe that they got what they could get for Harrison... I believe that nobody offered more or we'd have certainly taken it...
Just a thought..
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I just don't see why Mangini is being bashed for "using" Jerome Harrison. When is doing the job you are hired to do being used? In the everyday working world when people get let go or layed off it's not a what did you do for the company during one quater last year.It is what have you done since you've been there and particularly what are you doing right now today for the company. You can't rely on brief glimpses of ability in the working world so why should a guy earning the money they earn expect to?
I wonder if they where merely seeking a better pass blocker to spell Hillis due to having two QBS already injured and a desparate need to protect the third one.
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I would think that you would want your fastest RB in when you are in the "victory formation", just in case there's a bad snap and he has to chase someone down from behind. But .... what do I know .......? 
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only using JH in the victory formation is a jerk move. Maybe there's a reason for it, but unless something is said later on, we can only guess about that.
Something was said about it later, but first let me clear something up. I was thinking the quote below was Mangini's response to a reporter's question. It wasn't. It's a line from a small blurb in a larger article on the game:
"Jerome Harrison, who's recovering from a thigh injury did not show up on offense until the victory formation at the end."
It was posted like it's a personal quote, but it's actually part of the paragraph. Here's the entire blurb:
Quote:
HARRISON BARELY THERE: Jerome Harrison, who's recovering from a thigh injury did not show up on offense until the victory formation at the end. Last week, he said he didn't know what his role was and questioned "what carries?'' in answer to a question about losing some with Hillis so hot. Article
To your point. In actuality, Mangini did address the question. Like so much that gets posted here, the previous snippet was taken out of context to make Mangini sound like an a-hole. It takes on an entirely different hue when it's all taken in context. Here's what Mangini had to say about the issue on 10-7:
(On if Jerome Harrison is in his doghouse)- “No, not at all. He’ll probably have some opportunities this week and every week is different. No, that’s not the case at all.”
(On if Harrison has voiced any displeasure or if he has talked to him)- “No, we haven’t had any talks or anything, but I’m always open to that. To me, Peyton played really well last week and he got more opportunities, but it’s not a function of Jerome being looked at any differently.”
(On why Harrison was in at the end of the game for only the three kneel down plays)- “I can tell you Tony (Grossi), I wasn’t thinking about very much at that point besides, ‘Can we eat up all of this time right now and get in the right formation?’ I wasn’t thinking about who was in, I just wanted to make sure that we had the 11 and they were in the right spot. There was nothing more than that besides, ‘We can eat this up, right? Okay, great.’”
Link
Apparently, this was not the dastardly, premeditated, ego driven, punishment move it was portrayed to be, just another skewing of the facts utilizing only partial information to make Mangini look bad.
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Mangini probably didn't like his mini-rant too much.
Maybe, but I'll post this quote about Bell again because I think it speaks volumes, and addresses (I believe) the actual reason we made the trade. If you buy what Mangini is saying about Bell, then it's fair to assume Harrison didn't share these qualities.
(On what Mike Bell brings to the team)
"He’s a tough, physical runner, he’s a downhill runner, he’s been good in pass protection, he’s a sharp guy, he’s got a lot of experience, a lot of play time and I think he complements Peyton (Hillis) well and I think he complements the running game well."
So when everything is taken in context, the trade and putting him in at the end of the Cincy game doesn't come across as some villainous plot to debase a player, but unless you have all the information, it could sound that way. That's how some posters thrive when making their points and getting others to agree. Next thing you know, you have a bunch of people running around spouting off about what a jerk he is. Sadly, this knee-jerk parroting is a reflection of society as a whole.  
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Just adding a general observation,...they're both gone. I'm not going to get bundled up over this. Nobody screams anymore about Hank,...I got over that one. As I will this one. Good luck to all.
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