DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns waive James Davis, sign RB Thomas Clayton

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but we lost to KC and TB...those 2 teams aren't much more talented than the 49ers and Panthers. You guys act as if it was a LOCK, if we would have...other teams look at US as the LOCK-win, you know ...because we are as bad

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And TB and KC aren't much, if at all, more talented than us.. look, we are still a bottom half team struggling to get to that middle of the road area.... we lost both games in the final seconds and had them both won... .. I don't think ANYTHING is a lock.. I think we could lose to the Panthers, I think we could beat the Saints.. ... I don't think its a lock that if we played TB and KC again that we couldn't beat both of them... My point is not that anything is a lock, my point is that to this point in the season both TB and KC have had really easy schedules (much like us in '07) and we have played division leaders darn near every week.. and that has to be considered.

Teams like the Saints and Steelers might look at us as a lock-win, but I doubt teams like KC and TB do, they look at us as a good chance to get a win, the same way we look at them..

and seriously, I'm HOPING that the Pats are looking at us as a lock-win...

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I posted the BOTTOM LINE stats of all top 10 picking teams for this season....and what I see is: we are going nowhere, we're treading water...

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I see us being very competitive against much better teams.. we can't help our schedule. I don't see us treading water... this time last year we were an uncompetitive joke that couldn't get a first down and was losing games by 2 and 3 scores to mediocre teams...

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and we have much more stop gaps that are playing decent or better for us than both TB and KC (Brown, Fujita, Coleman, Womack, Wallace), who are younger overall and have more elite talent down the road....I'm not even seeing the long term "process"

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I do see the progress... Roth, Moore, Haden, Ward, Hillis, McCoy.. all guys that were not here this time last year, all guys that look like they can be a part of the long term success of the Cleveland Browns... Of course we still have some stop gaps, but this team is absolutely headed in the right direction from the FO to the guys on the field..

Django I think you are far more critical of the Browns than you are of other teams when making these comparisons.. who are these elite young players that Tampa Bay has? Jeff Faine? Sean Jones? Ronde Barber in his 14th year? The Chiefs I might give you.. they are younger and seem to have more talent and they have very experienced OC and DC working together.. I'm not ready to say they are the right path and we are not though...

That's my point DC...KC and TB aren't much more talented (for THIS year at least, I still think they have more "process" going than us, I'll explain) than us, they still have better overall numbers...and more importantly W-L record....TB won 3 games on their last possession...we lost 2o3 games that way....that's the difference...and it's not only on the players, I'd argue not even 50% in those situations...you think TB turned into a PO contender inserting some rooks? Would we look better playing in the NFC West? Sure..but we'd still lose close games to KC and TB...and I see lots of Coaching shortcomings that caused those losses...an even better example is STL...I saw some of their games now (short cuts is great)...and their D-scheme is impressive....Spags is really doing a great job with their D and is doing fine job with little talent....lots of play calling creativity on both sides and all that with a rookie QB...I look at those 3 teams and they overachieve thanks to their coaching, playing to their strength....then I look at us and we lose 2 games because Mangini needs again the start of the season to get it figured out what his team can and cannot do....we simply waste a lot of plays (= games) to do the logical thing...he simply outsmarts himself (and his players) too much....look at Nolan, the DC in MIA....friend of mine told me: their D is 100% vanilla and it's thanks to their simplicity that the players get it, maximize the scheme and bottom line is: it's good....some coaches just don't get it, and I think Mangini is 1 of them....he wants to impress Coaches but his job is to get his players play productive football. A Dodge that only reaches 120mph but you can drive constantly for 120mph is much faster than a Ferrari that can drive 200mph but you only get 80mph out of and you need a pro-driver (special sort of players) to get it figured out

To TB: Their Offense has a high upside and is VERY young, KW I think is their oldest starter at 27....Mike Williams has #1 WR talent and Freeman is better than I expected him to be and is especially real clutch..their OL is very young, even though not very good...G Joseph is pretty good though, Stroughter and Spurlock are good poss-WRs and Benn has some untapped upside...very young and very high end talent on O

Their D isn't that good but also very young....CB Talib, DT McCoy and MLB Ruud are their base, have some ok Tampa-2 undersized OLBs in Black and Hayes

Overall there's way more upside than on the Browns...we don't have a LB signed for next year that is under 30 and any good, Roth is no youngster and a FA, Barton is crap, Gocong is a decent run stuffer but is well below AVG against the pass and rushing the QB, Fujita, our best LB isn't getting any younger.....same on DL...Rubin, that's it...Ward, Wright and Haden in the DB, that's it there

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That's my point DC...KC and TB aren't much more talented (for THIS year at least, I still think they have more "process" going than us, I'll explain) than us, they still have better overall numbers...and more importantly W-L record....

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And that is my point.. of course they do.. if we played Buffalo, San Francisco, Carolina, like they did I would expect our numbers to be better.. but we didn't, we played the Ravens, Steelers, Saints, and Falcons... Head to head we outgained TB by over 50 yards if you want to use stats as a measure.. and we outgained KC by 20 yards.... so basically your stat line comparison is saying that when they play 0 and 1 loss teams, and we play a series of 5-2 teams, that our stat lines should be similar... ain't going to happen.

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you think TB turned into a PO contender inserting some rooks? Would we look better playing in the NFC West? Sure..

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No, I think TB turned into a PO contender by squeeking out victories against us, Cincy, St. Louis, Arizona.. while getting blown out by the only two decent teams they faced in Pittsburgh and New Orleans.. Hell they still get to play Carolina again, San Fran, Washington, Detroit, Seattle..

Tampa Bay could very easily go 10-6 without beating a single team with a winning record. We, quite possibly, will play 11 games against teams with a winning record....

So let's table this argument, lets see how we do when we get to the Carolina, Buffalo, Jacksonville stretch of our schedule and lets see if TB can actually beat (or even compete with) NO, or Atlanta, or Baltimore or SOMEBODY with a winning record...

But I don't see Tampa Bay have a great "process" in place.. they have a QB who has been in the system for a couple years... and if I envy anything about KC, it's Charlie Weiss.. I will say that I wouldn't mind having him leading our offense.

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Thank you, they are 2 teams that picked ahead of us for a reason....and now the're 3 games better than us after only 7 games....KC is clearly better on O and D, how come they did improve so much and we didn't? TB is only slightly better on O and D (and I'd argue not better talent wise), they won close games all season, we lost them...how come? How come those "poor" 2009 teams are able to finish games and we don't still...in the 2nd year of the same staff?

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Perhaps KC is better this year because their OC and DC are better. And I am not comparing them to ours, just to whom the Chiefs had last season. Say what you want about Crennel/Weis as head coaches (they both stunk) but both are top notch coordinators.

As for TB getting better, perhaps their improvement is because last year they played a rookie Qb who has matured because of that playing time (queue up the play Colt now chants ) and that explains their improvement.

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Other teams that were bad improve in the BOTTOM LINE department...we only improved in making excuses

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So you admit it. We are improving

django to answer what you asked...

is that I dont really think that they have come that much farther than us. TB has a solid record because they play close games and Josh Freeman is fantastic in the 4th Q. The Chiefs have added fantastic coordinators that make the most of what they have, and a very good rushing attack that puts them in position to win.


I dont think theyre that far ahead. We played TB and barring (and i hate this excuse because we were still winning and had a whole half to play) Jake Delhomme's pick-almost-6 and injury we had them. But they made good adjustments at halftime that we didnt make.

Against KC, Seneca made a huge error in his pick-6 and we blew it.

That being said. Looking at the Chiefs and Bucs...they had a core they built last year, and this year they added to it rather than replaced almost everything around it, and improved it and now they know how to win...We had a lot of new parts that had to learn how to come together...and i think that in the past few weeks we have (under Colt...please keep playing him). So...them keeping together a core, as well as playing some patsies rather then our murderers row of opponents...

Thought...if we win 1 of our next 2, and play to the last possession in the other...would you get on board? Or what if we win our next 2...then what?

I think those are excuses...TB won on their last possessions and we lost there....that's on coaching for the most part, either tactical or motivational....it's been a pattern with both teams and I think in those situations it has nothing to do with "luck" or "schedule"

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I think in those situations it has nothing to do with "luck" or "schedule"

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Or execution.

Just to throw this stat out there

Chargers still through midway point are #1 offense, #1 passing offense, #1 total defense, #1 passing defense and #2 rushing defense and are a godly 3-5.

I guess any argument for ST's not being as important as offense or defense has been debunked beyond debate thanks to the 2010 Chargers.

They are a much younger team, as I said...so ups and downs are to be expected...but what you call "heroics" is their play to win coaching and high upside talent we don't have