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The one thing that really stood out for me was when asked about Daboll, his only comment was he works. I mean that isnt exactly a ringing endorsement.
Then he talked about Ryan and all that moving around and stuff and he kinda lit up. it was interesting.
our defense is #12 in the NFL at Pts Allowed per game
our offense is #31 in the NFL at scoring Pts per game
I don't think there is anything to read into it other than Holmgren would like to see the offense closer to that defensive number. Oh, and so would Mangini, Daboll, and every poster on here (well maybe not Christy and Steel, but most  )
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I honestly think Daboll is so far over his head that it isnt even funny. Remember he went from a gofer for the D staff to Brett Farve's QB coach to Offensive coordinator for the Browns.
I think he honestly tries to do to much. Its like I have this huge playbook and we have to use every play and it doesnt matter down and position. running the reverse back into the side the saints were overloading on every play was flat out stupid. In Pitt running the draw up the middle on 3rd and 9 when pitt was blitzing up the middle over and over again had zero chance of working. Then you have the 3rd and 3 plays where we run all receivers 20 yard sprints downfeild. Or the 3rd and 7 plays when all receivers run 4 yard curls.
There just is no rhyme nor reason what this guy does. Chiefs and Bucs cant stop the run so lets come out and throw 50 times a game. Seriously why would u do that when these 2 teams were the 31st and 32nd team against the run?
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Well, if it produced points, I bet he would
But it hasn't when it's needed to,there's the issue.
In the second half there's virually no production,no points,no long drives,no quick strikes.
which is why I'm asking,, is it the scheme or the talent.
Keeping saying it's both.
The scheme is going to the TE's and inside the hash..it's not going long or to the outside.
Well you can scheme all you want, but at some point you're going to have to line up and win some 1 on 1 battles on the field.
It's becoming painfully evident the WR's are not doing that.
I just look at what the defenses are doing. They are downright playing cover 1 and sometimes cover 0. Routinely.
No deep help because they aren't afraid of anyone When the Browns do take their shots downfield, I rarely if ever see a safety or a nickleback in the picture to help. So I know the defenses are leaving their CB's on islands. It's man coverage, and a lot of it. I have a hard time believing 2 veteran QB's cannot connect with our WR's.
But here again DABOLL should be calling for some shots downfield and he's not doing that either..
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Wow. So according to you, we have no passing game so we have no running game, no defense and no STs.
I said about the passing game, but I said nothing about anything else.
To answer your question our D has looked "ok" not great but "decent" they ranked down there in yards given up etc but they are better then they were least year.
Our Running game is "decent" but face it...our running game with a rejuvenated Jamal Lewis was much better in 2007 then we have now...Lewis is done now...but 2007 was the best rushing year we have had here in a long time...
Jamal Lewis in 2007 rushed for 1,304 yards and averaged 4.4 yards per carry. 9 Rushing TDS he also had a 66 yard TD run, and caught 30 balls for 248 yards and 2 more TD
Hillis has good numbers "right now" but there is NO WAY he even comes close to touching 1300 yards..in fact...i'll be surprised if he makes 1,000 which is mediocare after all if you can get 69 yards a game you can break 1,000...1250 to 1300 yards is the real measuring stick of a good RB
Hillis is just another average back until he reaches that plateau...another in a long list of situational backs, Until he hits that makr, he is just another run of the mill back that can run someone over..Bam Morris, Criag Heyward anyone?....please Hillis hit that 1300 yard mark if you can it means we are in the Playoffs..until he hits that mark he is what he is...a situational back.
our Special Teams are actually good I never said anything bad about them.
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Yeah, Haden and Ward suck. You're right, guess we haven't built a thing.
Yeah and those guys were brought here by who? oh yeah Heckert Drafted those guys....and who exactly is any good from Mangini's draft?..oh Mack is about it...and he is not a Joe Thomas Caliber lineman either.
Mangini has built nothing here...well he built a pile of dung with his 2009 draft if you want to call that building something...
Haden, Ward were picked by Heckert not Mangini...those are Heckert's guys..Mangini didn't pick them thank god after what we seen of his 09 draft....
there is no reason Heckerts parts won't work..afterall Ward is a prototypical Sean Dawkins 4-3 SS through and through...he is what he is...
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Jamal Lewis in 2007 rushed for 1,304 yards and averaged 4.4 yards per carry. 9 Rushing TDS he also had a 66 yard TD run, and caught 30 balls for 248 yards and 2 more TD
Hillis has good numbers "right now" but there is NO WAY he even comes close to touching 1300 yards..in fact...i'll be surprised if he makes 1,000 which is mediocare after all if you can get 69 yards a game you can break 1,000...1250 to 1300 yards is the real measuring stick of a good RB
Hillis is just another average back until he reaches that plateau...another in a long list of situational backs,
Ok, so if we use the 7-game sample and extrapolate it to 16 games; here would be Hillis' numbers:
Rushing
YPC = 4.4 ('07 Lewis = 4.4)
Yards = 1051 ('07 Lewis = 1304)
TDs = 11.5 ('07 Lewis = 9)
Receiving
Rec = 62 ('07 Lewis = 30)
Yards = 441 ('07 Lewis = 248)
TDs = 2 ('07 Lewis = 2)
So, Hillis has been sharing the load, which is why he would miss your 'magic' 1200 yard marker. But, his actual yards per carry equals what Jamal did that season. Plus, he is a better receiver by far.
Oh, and let's not forget he is on pace to score more TDs despite the fact that our offense as a whole is nowhere near that 2007 team as far as scoring points per game.
2007 Jamal Lewis was good for the Browns. I don't think that 2010 Peyton Hillis has been any worse thus far though. And I am not sure where you get that from.
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WOW I see a lot of people trying to be Ms Cleo and reading between invisible lines on this thread. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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WOW I see a lot of people trying to be Ms Cleo and reading between invisible lines on this thread.
Hey, I tried, but like I said, I can't read the man at all.. I am not even sure why he bothered to have the presser at all 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I think he did it so he could sit back and laugh at some of the posters here.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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clicking on ya, old man.  I usually enjoy Steve Doershuck's blog, but he said the barometer for Mangini keeping his job beyond 2010 is eight wins, which I think is a crock. And I hope Holmgren stops giving pressers, I also wish a reporter would delve deeply into the wide receiver situation.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Nobody is happy with the offense, and the running game suffers because of the lack of passing production. But that doesn't mean that we aren't building something. If nothing else, the team is playing better, keeping games close and in it until the end. From what I've seen on the field this year, generally we're heading in the right direction, but I certainly didn't expect to get it all fixed this year. I said it at the beginning of camp, I'll be happy with 7-9 or 8-8. I still see hitting that mark if we continue to improve. Anything over that is bonus, IMO.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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This was your entire quote: Quote:
why we haven't built anything here at all...we have no passing game...
our 2010 draft class is going now where..we haven't built anything so we wouldn't be starting over....
It's okay to back peddle and clarify, but when you make overly simplistic, broad statements like that, it sounds silly.
More to the point, we are building something. I see the need for improvement in several areas, but we are improving, just not fast enough for some. Lack of patience isn't going to get it done any quicker.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I think Doerschuk has something against Mangini. He just doesn't like him much.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I meant our 2010 draft class is not going to get cut, traded, etc so it wouldn't really be starting over
other then Alex Mack our 09 Draft has been pretty much a wash/non-factor
Mangini hasn't brought much here to consider building anything....most of our better players are the guys Savage/Romeo brought here(Our best players Cribbs, Thomas, Rubin, Rogers, Jackson, Wright) Mangini has not done anything
Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita
which rounds out our 9 best players on this team....Mangini butched our 09 draft no doubt about that...Mack IMO has been no better then Jeff Faine...he is not an impact lineman like Thomas is, infact Mack is not even as good as Steinbach who is not the guy he was 3 years ago..that says something....
i'll say this...if Mangini can win 8 games this year I will be willing to give him more time, if he wins 7 games and loses a few games down the stretch but their close and well coached, keep Mangini another year..however if we get seriously pasted in these last games remaining and finish with like 5 or 6 wins...you have to go in another direction....
since Heckert and Holmgren are here, we won't do a house cleaning...we will keep the guys we have that are good players, we will just focus more on a WCO type of Offense, and I wouldn't be suprised if Rob Ryan is retained, he has done a good job with what he has on this not so good Front 7...ryan has done good with what he has to work with...
I believe this team could win 7 games, it could win 8 games...if the gameday coaching is there...Mangini needs to make better decisions on gameday..if he can improve in this area, then I will be more then fair and say keep the guy..so far he has not shown any improvement whatsoever in gameday coaching and it has cost this team games we should have won.
that is my main crutch
also don't think holmgren is not looking and weighing these gameday decisions either...I would no doubt bet Holmgren was scratching his head why Mangini didn't pull Jake who was clearly hurt in the Tampa game, I am also sure he scratched his head when he put Jake who was hurt in the Atlanta game...
holmgren doesn't want to come out in public and speak up and undermine his coach...he has enough respect to not saying anything until the seaosn is over, but these blunders will be a part of holmgren's evaluation
It would be hard even for a talented team like the Pats or Steelers to win with that kinda gameday coaching...the margin of talent between teams is very small..the difference between winning teams and losing teams in the nfl is 2 or 3 players...its very small...you must have good gameday coaching to stay on par in this league and give you a chance to win...so far Mangini has shown blunders in this regard in his time here...this must improve and holmgren himself is most definitely watching this part of Mangini
I personally would rather see Eric start winning and improve on that area...just so we don't have to bring someone else in, but if he don't improve on this we may have no choice.
what is Holmgren to do when he reviews film and sees 2 or 3 wins we could have had if only Mangini made a better simple decision(like putting in Wallace when Jake was clearly too hurt to play in the Tampa for example) its this kind of stuff that he will be looking at...and its unacceptable for a NFL head coach to make these kind of blunders..once maybe...but not twice...no way....thats just incompetence...
Seneca Wallace was brought here by holmgren as an insurance policy...he is a savy veteran who has proven he can play and win a few games on this level in case of an injury, and spot start...there was no reason for Mangini not to put him in the Tampa game, even if we still ended up losing..it would have shown Mangini was capable of making the right decision(playing your healthy guys)
we will just have to see, but I don't enjoy bagging on Mangini...i really hope he learns from this the rest of the way out and makes better gameday decisions, because those blunders are killing us.
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Buds spin.... Quote:
Holmgren made it clear in the Browns' current "style of offense" the receivers are underused. If they're better than OK, as he says they are, it falls on Brian Daboll. If Holmgren didn't think they could play, his choice as GM, Tom Heckert, could've acquired some replacements to help Browns' quarterbacks stretch the field. That weakness is an organizational issue.
Hmmmmm......
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Quote:
Buds spin....
Quote:
Holmgren made it clear in the Browns' current "style of offense" the receivers are underused. If they're better than OK, as he says they are, it falls on Brian Daboll. If Holmgren didn't think they could play, his choice as GM, Tom Heckert, could've acquired some replacements to help Browns' quarterbacks stretch the field. That weakness is an organizational issue.
Hmmmmm......
This is precisely the way I heard it and took it.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Buds spin....
Quote:
Holmgren made it clear in the Browns' current "style of offense" the receivers are underused. If they're better than OK, as he says they are, it falls on Brian Daboll. If Holmgren didn't think they could play, his choice as GM, Tom Heckert, could've acquired some replacements to help Browns' quarterbacks stretch the field. That weakness is an organizational issue.
Hmmmmm......
This is precisely the way I heard it and took it.
yup. i heard an indictment of daboll and i have never once questioned our coaching staff. i am just saying that's what i heard or how i spun it i guess
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Quote:
Buds spin....
Quote:
Holmgren made it clear in the Browns' current "style of offense" the receivers are underused. If they're better than OK, as he says they are, it falls on Brian Daboll. If Holmgren didn't think they could play, his choice as GM, Tom Heckert, could've acquired some replacements to help Browns' quarterbacks stretch the field. That weakness is an organizational issue.
Hmmmmm......
And I would have to disagree with MH in part.
Sure the WR's are underused..but here's the "catch ",in that, last year Mass had better opportunities because of Edwards drawing attention from the DB's ..now that he's gone,there's no deep threat and Mass doesn't have that top end speed or moves to go scare anyone.
Robo..bust..sorry MH but I see nothing in him and saw nothing that would have led me to believe he would have a good career.So inpart I blame all three for the current state of the receivers.
Heckert went along with Genuis in saying they were o.k with the group.
Of course Mangini would advertise them as good,he selected them,he can't admit failure on them because he already threw in the towel on his other 09 picks.
But the rest of the way.I'm going to see what happens.
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MoMass only had Edwards to draw coverage for the first 6 games or whatever it was.... then he did it on his own. I'm not saying he did much, but to use Edwards as your excuse for him is just sad, really... because for one Edwards did mostly nothing at all when he was here, and for two, he wasn't hardly here at all... less than half the season.
I don't think Mangini "sold" anything to Heckert & Holmgren.... I'd be pretty pissed if H&H did anything other than look at the tape themselves and form their own conclusion. My opinion of them would be way worse if they allowed themselves to be sold a bill of goods without doing the research themselves.
Conversely, my thoughts are that they looked at it, they knew then that we weren't Ok and they still know it, but there hasn't been anyone that they've felt would be a good addition. Whether because of character, or perhaps a player not wanting to come here... my bet is that they looked at it and realized that it was an area that would just have to wait until next offseason to be addressed; and I certainly wouldn't expect Holmgren to sell out the current WR's mid-season just as this team is starting to show more life. That would be counterproductive, to say the least.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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MoMass only had Edwards to draw coverage for the first 6 games or whatever it was.... then he did it on his own. I'm not saying he did much, but to use Edwards as your excuse for him is just sad, really... because for one Edwards did mostly nothing at all when he was here, and for two, he wasn't hardly here at all... less than half the season.
Who said Edwards did anything?
U just agreed with me that Edwards presence helped him for a part of the season,but you counter it by saying he did nothing..can't have it both ways.
I said he drew attention he drew double teams..defenses rotated their coverage on him..we all know he couldn't catch a break let alone a ball.
But after that the Browns played a lot of teams with horrible secondaries, so I'm not shocked Mass caught some balls..
Tell me why he's not doing anything this year?
Same player..
Maybe because he's a known player now..maybe he's shown he actually does need a threat on the opposite side of him to draw doubles ,allowing him to get open..then again he's been singled up and still hasn't done anything..so much for this breakout year,eh?
Conversely, my thoughts are that they looked at it, they knew then that we weren't Ok and they still know it, but there hasn't been anyone that they've felt would be a good addition. Whether because of character, or perhaps a player not wanting to come here... my bet is that they looked at it and realized that it was an area that would just have to wait until next offseason to be addressed; and I certainly wouldn't expect Holmgren to sell out the current WR's mid-season just as this team is starting to show more life. That would be counterproductive, to say the least.
This would tend to be more reasonable ,but I see blame also being put on them not been utilized more.
There's also some truth in that.
But tell me somthing..have you ever seen any group of receivers develop properly here since this team returned,have you ever seen any of them (except Winslow) get better??
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Quote:
what is Holmgren to do when he reviews film and sees 2 or 3 wins we could have had if only Mangini made a better simple decision
Who the hell was it that got us in position to win in the 1st place? I don't get this MMQB thing never have you as a coach do what you think gives you the best chance to win, period.
The int's and penalties aren't what coaches teach, at some point talent and execution and NOT coaching take over. This is where we differ knight.
I think this team is clearly getting better. If the measuring stick is wins and loses you win that argument it needs to improve and it will. I think your grasping at straws by continuing to beat the drum that Mangini isn’t the guy to get us where we want to go.
Given the level of actual talent on this team you can’t think that if we had a different coach we would have a better record. I just don’t see the wins coming from this unit based on talent alone. Coaching will begin to overcome those short falls and is. But it takes time and it comes at a cost. That cost is losing. But that I guarantee you is about to take a drastic change for the better.
I have maintained from the very beginning of pre-season that this team would lose early and win late. Why did I have that opinion you may ask?
#1 Half of the starters on defense where either Rookies or FA or traded for players. Ward, and Haden Rookies, Brown and Gocong trade. Fugita FA signing. That’s 4 starters and one Rookie who plays better then 50% of all snaps. That to me spells learning growing and becoming comfortable with the schemes and each other. That takes time. Sorry it just does. I can’t speak for what Holmgren thinks but I bet he knows all those things, don’t you think?
#2 We imported and draft a whole new QB group, and that’s a good thing because we weren’t going ANYWHERE with the group we had. Injuries have held this group back. For instances do you think this offense would be further along with their development as a cohesive group if they had the same QB starting every week. I know I do, and I thought that going back to pre-season. That hasn’t worked out due to injuries and that has only added to our losing. Don’t you think that’s so?
The injury issue at QB has held the offense back from improving at the rate the defense has but they still they have improved.
At some point talent has to take over and coaching becomes secondary. You seem to turn your focus only on coaching, all bad comes from coaching and all good comes from dumb luck. I can’t sign up for that and most people won’t. You may ask why? Mainly because it is narrow in thought and unreasonable on all levels of thought.
Look let this play out, I think your about to be very shocked at the results and not in bad way.
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I can see your point with much of what you just wrote, however, I believe regarding most of it we'll just have to wait and see.
As far as the '09 draft class is concerned, I believe Mack is a fine center, with a good motor and decent recognition. He's still developing, but he's doing okay. I think he'll look even better once we start shoring up the right side of the line. And we probably need to start looking at a young, developmental LG.
I'm still not convinced that Mo-Mass and Robo are complete washes. Part of their ineffectiveness is scheme, part of it is lack of experience, and part of it is lack of chemistry with the QBs. They do need to work on getting open, that's for sure, but they're still young and I believe it takes WRs (some) a little longer to "get it". Of course there are examples, (especially this year,) of rookies coming in and having an impact right way, but those guys, (in my view,) have exceptional size or speed, or both. These two don't, and need to rely more heavily on technique. Bottom line, we need an effective #1, and they're not it, but that doesn't mean they can't eventually be good receivers for this team. IMO, the jury is still out on the 75% of the draft that should prove most useful.
Regarding the LB busts, the grades were high on them coming in, and we were desperate at the position. They didn't work out, so you're right, they were busts. Veikune, especially, was a disappointment. The rest of the draft were 6th round picks, and again, for the most part, reflected the desperate need we had at CB. Davis hung as long as he could, and I was disappointed that Francies didn't work out. In both those cases, it may have had more to do with character and injury than actual talent. But you know as well as anyone, with 6th round picks and UDFAs, you're taking a shot in the dark that you might find a diamond in the rough.
Also, when you evaluate that draft, you have to consider that we also acquired Elam and Kenyon Coleman, they've turned out to be productive.
I'm not making excuses here, but I think it's extremely difficult for a first year coach to come in, get situated, evaluate the players, and delve into scouting reports, attend the combine and workouts, take meetings and make long term personnel decisions, along with all of his other duties. In general, I'm not a big fan of HC's making the personnel decisions anyway. Bottom line here is, we now have a true GM and a team of decent talent evaluators, so that short coming, if you want to call it that, seems to have been effectively addresses by the ownership, and I like the decision.
As far as game day coaching goes, I think there is a whole slew of factors that come into play regarding our losses. Most of which, (as far as I could tell when watching,) came down to mistakes made by the players. Not saying that Mangini didn't make any. I questioned at the time the decision to leave Jake in. We all know how that turned out, but I don't believe that is the single factor that cost us that game.
I personally haven't noticed that many bad game day decisions this year. I also think that the game plans for each team have been very effective, and would have us sitting on a winning record were it not for penalties and turnovers. I'd honestly like to know what other game day "blunders" you're referring to, to get a better sense of what you see as his shortcomings. If you're talking about not using the timeouts at the end of the half, I can easily see this as conservative play, and not wanting to do anything to cause a turnover, and just head into the locker room with the lead. If you've noticed other glaring deficiencies besides that, I'd like to know what they are.
I also believe that Holmgren will do his best to evaluate the entire season as a whole, (not just the wins and losses,) and the competitive nature of the team in general, while factoring the severe lack of talent we still have in key areas. I'm not saying the record won't factor heavily, just that it won't be the only factor, but you're right, if we seriously start getting our asses kicked, he'll be as good as gone. This team must remain competitive in order for him to retain the job.
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Quote:
And I hope Holmgren stops giving pressers
Just pointing out that one of the reasons Lerner brought Holmgren in was to give these pressers and be the 'voice' of the organization.
Last year, we had people complaining up and down we never heard from Lerner on anything, etc. So, he went out and got a voicebox (Holmgren). And, I do think it is important that he gets out in front of the mike and has these sitdowns with the press.
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Quote:
Who said Edwards did anything?
U just agreed with me that Edwards presence helped him for a part of the season,but you counter it by saying he did nothing..can't have it both ways.
I said he drew attention he drew double teams..defenses rotated their coverage on him..we all know he couldn't catch a break let alone a ball.
But after that the Browns played a lot of teams with horrible secondaries, so I'm not shocked Mass caught some balls..
Tell me why he's not doing anything this year?
Same player..
Maybe because he's a known player now..maybe he's shown he actually does need a threat on the opposite side of him to draw doubles ,allowing him to get open..then again he's been singled up and still hasn't done anything..so much for this breakout year,eh?
What part confused you? Edwards did do nothing while he was here in 2009.
Yes, teams had to account for him and that perhaps helped ease the coverage on MoMass a bit in his first few games, but you could just as easily counter that MoMass was helped more by simply being a nobody rookie. To further counter that notion is the fact that MoMass still did what he was doing long after Edwards was shipped out following Week 4. That left 12 games where MoMass did it on his own as our #1 WR.
Furthermore, MoMass only had ONE game where he did anything worthwhile whatsoever while Edwards was here (Week 4 vs. Cinci), so it is not a case where Edwards helped him all that much.
Why is he not doing anything this year? Damned if I know, but it certainly is not because of anything to do with Edwards.
Would a big time deep threat that has to accounted for help him? Sure, who wouldn't that help?
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T..have you ever seen any group of receivers develop properly here since this team returned,have you ever seen any of them (except Winslow) get better??
Kinda... Baltimore was a WR Purgatory for a long time.
We are a special kind of pathetic when it comes to WR's, though.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita, and Roth
which rounds out our 10 best players on this team
updated for completeness
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Quote:
Quote:
Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita, and Roth
which rounds out our 10 best players on this team
updated for completeness
Roth was already here before Heckert and Holmgren got here.. all they did was resign him to a 1 year tender....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What part confused you?
The part you don't seem to understand.
This isn't about BE personally.It's about having a big play receiver that has to be accounted for,thats it.
Stop thinking about Edwards as production and just think of him as a threat..thats all.
His two biggest games were against Cincy when he caught 8 balls (when they were doubling BE) and (5)against Dtown(when Quinn had his day)..otherwise he basically caught a average of about 2 passes per game.
He had 38 last year and several games he only had 1 catch.
It's not exactly stellar stats, there are rookies this year that almost have that many catches already.
Now I say thats part because of the disgusting QB play last year ,but what is it this year?
He's just not that go to guy, he needs another big play guy out there with him.
But even so,he still may not produce much..it certainly doesn't look like it to me.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/04/10 01:44 PM.
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I see where you're coming from, and I agree completely that he isn't a go-to guy, but I don't think it matters one bit whether there is another threat there or not. Edwards certainly didn't have any effect like you claimed.
If anything, Edwards contribution was that he couldn't catch The Clap and so we HAD to throw to someone else... THAT is why I would say that MoMass had 8 catches that day, because Edwards had Zero. Edwards was gone 3 days later.
MoMass had a decent day against Pittsburgh two games after that, then there is the Detroit game you mentioned. That's it. The rest of his production compares directly to what we're seeing this season.... lots of one catch games. When Moore came aboard and had his standout game against Pitt and we were running it well with Jennings, MoMass certainly didn't do anything there, either.
In short, those good games from him are the exception, not the rule... a much more likely conclusion is simply that MoMass just isn't all that because he hasn't done all that much. Basically, my guess would be that MoMass has a good game when defenses look at him and go "meh, we don't even have to cover that guy".
Why isn't he doing more this year? Probably because he didn't do much of anything last year... we're getting what we got. Now that I've gone back and looked at his rookie year with clearer eyes, I'm actually shocked that we all pimp him as hard as we do on this board.... he certainly hasn't earned it.
If anything, I'm just going to conclude (after having looked at this with fresh eyes) that it won't really matter if there is another threat or not. I'm thinking that MoMass is, at best, a #3 receiver for us.
You can claim the QB's from last year, except that now we've had 5 QB's throwing to him, and all with essentially the same result... one good game followed by a lot of invisible.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Mangini hasn't brought much here to consider building anything....most of our better players are the guys Savage/Romeo brought here(Our best players Cribbs, Thomas, Rubin, Rogers, Jackson, Wright) Mangini has not done anything
Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita
which rounds out our 9 best players on this team....Mangini butched our 09 draft no doubt about that...Mack IMO has been no better then Jeff Faine...he is not an impact lineman like Thomas is, infact Mack is not even as good as Steinbach who is not the guy he was 3 years ago..that says something....
This is the part of your argument that I'm not understanding. Yes, with the exception of Mack, whom personally I think your not giving nearly enough credit to, our 09 draft class sucked. I get that. However, to continue to want Mangini fired as a coach because he sucked as a GM is a non-issue right now.
He sucked as a GM. He is no longer in the role of GM. End of story.
The rest of your argument, I get. I don't necessarily agree with you, but it is what it is.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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I have to say when I looked back at his game logs from last year,I thought they were better than that..they weren't..
So if we see that he might be at best # 3 guy and he really hasn't had any big games or consistantly been a factor,then I know for myself I still disagee with what MH said that these guys are o.k..they aren't even "aw-right"..
Now could it be that he sees this himself?
See with Heckert I'm not sure,Philly went several years without a big play wideout.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/04/10 01:53 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita, and Roth
which rounds out our 10 best players on this team
updated for completeness
Roth was already here before Heckert and Holmgren got here.. all they did was resign him to a 1 year tender....
No, Holmgren joined around Nov 2 and Roth was claimed Nov 27th or something like that.
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2nd String
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No, Holmgren joined around Nov 2 and Roth was claimed Nov 27th or something like that.
Holmgren joined the team December 21, 2009:
Link Here
They picked up Roth on November 26th. Good or bad, Roth was Mangini's move.
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All Pro
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Just clicking...
So Mikes coaching comments recently have really gotten under my skin. By even throwing out the idea you want to coach again next year, you are sending out 2 different messages...
#1- You will FIRE the teams head coach. Why would you even talk about this right now?
#2- You will leave Cleveland after 1 season as President. What good does that do right now other than ... the fans off?
SHUT UP MIKE!!!
"The Browns are a club contenders probably don't want to face right now. Their physicality cannot be questioned."
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My thoughts are that there is no way they can't see how bad it is. They've GOT to see that WR is an issue, but in order for them to do anything about it, there has to be something that they CAN do.... and it can't be making a move just for the sake of making a move.
Guys with character issues are automatic disqualifications right now, then there are the guys that want big money - with a potential lockout next season, that's a no-no... and some are removed from consideration because they just didn't want to come here. I firmly believe that it is something they looked at and just concluded that what we had was "good enough" to get by for this year with and that it would get addressed later while they fix things that CAN be fixed this year. They aren't stupid, they know as well as anyone that you can't do it all in one offseason. They did quite a bit, and there's no doubt more to come.
As for what MH said.. what is it that you expect him to say during a fluff piece interview, especially if you were to accept the idea that they know the situation needs fixed, but they weren't going to be able to do it this year? You can't toss the current WR's under the bus in the middle of the season, so he's kinda got to give the answer he gave.
When Stuckey & Cribbs are our best WR's, I just don't see how they can look at it and actually believe that it's actually Ok... so I have to conclude that it's all just politically correct speak when they say that things are Ok.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Heckert and Holmgren are responsible for bring in Ward, Haden, Fujita, and Roth
which rounds out our 10 best players on this team
updated for completeness
Roth was already here before Heckert and Holmgren got here.. all they did was resign him to a 1 year tender....
No, Holmgren joined around Nov 2 and Roth was claimed Nov 27th or something like that.
How can you be that wrong and still call yourself a Browns fan
What you may be confusing is when holmgrens name began to surface as a potential HC or VP or Pres or all three.. That happened sometime in early November.. But he didn't start until late December or early January.
Roth was on board long before that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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No, Holmgren joined around Nov 2 and Roth was claimed Nov 27th or something like that.
Holmgren joined the team December 21, 2009:
Link Here
They picked up Roth on November 26th. Good or bad, Roth was Mangini's move.
Dangit! My bad! I was peeking at a quick google search and the dates, i must have seen nov 2 of this year 
Anyways, I consider Roth one of our 9 best players so I'll have to disagree with the comment about who brought them here.
Sorry D-shot.
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I agree PPE. He's playing politicaly correct. I mean what's he supposed to say? Our WR's suck? I mean he could have said what was exatly on his mind but that would be suicide and probably go something like this............... "Well our WR corp is putrid at best but we have a very young O and we're trying to build something here. Bringing in a cancer like Moss into such a young O could set back the building process long term. So even though we need the immediate help, I can't risk the gamble of bringing in a guy like Moss into the mix. I see it having more downside in the long haul than upside." For some reason I just don't see him saying that!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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we got Roth b/c Parcells recommended to Gini' that he come here.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, Holmgren joined around Nov 2 and Roth was claimed Nov 27th or something like that.
Holmgren joined the team December 21, 2009:
Link Here
They picked up Roth on November 26th. Good or bad, Roth was Mangini's move.
Dangit! My bad! I was peeking at a quick google search and the dates, i must have seen nov 2 of this year
Anyways, I consider Roth one of our 9 best players so I'll have to disagree with the comment about who brought them here.
Sorry D-shot.
No Problem at all 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Now that I've gone back and looked at his rookie year with clearer eyes, I'm actually shocked that we all pimp him as hard as we do on this board.... he certainly hasn't earned it.
Not all of us pimped him. I tried to make this exact arguement last year but not a lot of people were open to it.
I really hope that we do something significant to address this situation in the offseason. We don't have anything there. I'd feel good if we went after a good WR through a trade or FA as well as a high draft pick as well.
Ryan Broyles is my favorite WR value and I think he'll be a strong pro as well. Greg Salas is another big time value in the mid to later rounds.
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