Quote: Not at all true. I did not intend to nitpick, nor marginalize the win. I just had a problem with those proclaiming him the savior.
Not sure who did that but I think most everybody is at least pleasantly surprised at how Colt has looked. I believe that going into the season there were two generally accepted schools of thought on McCoy, those who optimistically hoped he could be the guy in a year or two but were willing to draft a QB in the top 5 since that is where it looked like we would be drafting... to the other end which was that McCoy was destined to be a career backup at best and that drafting another QB was imperative.. I think his performance has moved everybody up the scale just a little... confirming what some had hoped and causing others to rethink..
I'd like to get this thread somewhat back on topic and discuss how his work with the WRs has paid off and will continue to pay off.
First of all, he completed passes to seven different receivers. Spreading the ball around, being an "equal opportunity passer" is something that good QBs do very well. Finding the open man, not locking onto his "favorite" target. Brees does it, Brady does it, Manning does it. I think we caught a glimpse of that this week.
I was impressed that he got everyone involved. He made good use of Mo-Mass, and even got a pass to Robo, both of whom have been virtually invisible all year. He used Stuckey well, got a couple balls to Cribbs and tried to hit him deep, which might have been a TD, or at least a long play if Cribbs had kept running instead of slowing down. He also had four passes over 20 yards. I think all this bodes well for the passing game, as he continues to work with the WR's and develop chemistry and timing with them.
Mangini talked about QB specific packages tailored to what the QB likes. He's obviously still growing into his NFL game, but from what I've seen of McCoy in college, he likes to use his WRs, and he likes to use them across the middle, and down the sidelines, and going deep. He throws the slant, post and go routes effectively and with good accuracy when he and the WRs are on the same page. To help them out, he delivers a very "catchable" ball with good accuracy. He also uses play action well, and is good at selling the run which should help the WRs get open. I'm excited to see how he and the WRs develop over then next few weeks, and expect to see them more and more involved as we progress, specifically starting next week with the Jets.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
Quote: I admit to being a fan of a more vertical passing game. I think it helps the run game more, and you have bigger plays. Colt hasn't shown that he can play in a vertical offense.
I hate to break it to you, but no matter who is at QB, we are not going to have a vertical passing game with the scrubs we have at WR.
You can't fault Colt because he hasn't shown something that he doesn't have the opportunity to show.
Tom Brady has made a career out of doing exactly what Colt has been doing these last 3 games.
Okay, if we are going to compare Colt to QBs as this thread seems to be doing (despite Deep's protests ), why don't we compare him to the QB that he most resembles and is probably his ceiling (at least to me):
Phil Simms
Accurate, smart, and rely on the running game and not turning the ball over. Now, we haven't seen Colt elevate his game to account for the running game getting stuffed as Phil was able to do, and other teams are still getting tape on him so we don't know if Colt will be able to adjust once DC's get a "book" on him.
However, so far, we should be optimistic that he has been able to clear the first couple of hurdles and hope that he can continue to improve. And, if we are going to look at a QB for him to eventually become, Phil would be my choice for his skillset (obviously Colt has a bit more wheels than good ole Phil though).
I'm not comparing Colt to Brady (the best QB to ever play the game, IMO... But that's for another thread), I'm just saying with the exception of the years Brady had Moss, he made a career out of moving the chains and being smart with the football, without a real vertical passing game.
Quote: btw that bomb to shippley was 50 yards in the air, you don't need much more arm than that. Dogging CM for not being good in the deep game is getting nitpicky.
Having arm strength has nothing to do with how far you can throw it. If an NFL QB can't throw it 50 yards, he should give up. Arm strength is how well a QB can zing it in there on a deep out or a throw across the middle. You'll also notice that Colt has to put too much air under the ball throwing it deep because his arm isn't strong enough to throw it more on a line. It's easier to have an inaccurate pass if you have to put that much loft on it.
Quote: By the standards some people put out there our franchise QB has to throw for 280 and 3 TD's every game to be a franchise QB . . . news flash: Brady and manning dont put up those numbers every game and they make mistakes, By DP's standards Brady was a bum today that should be benched.
A franchise QB is someone who will win games for you. Colt hasn't shown he can do that; Brady has. He doesn't have to put those numbers up every game. But he has to be able to do it. We haven't needed Colt to do it yet, but that doesn't mean he can, or can't. And is DP supposed to be me? I really have no idea...
Quote:
Also, why is it so many people try to pick him apart? Not a good prospect? are you F%&ÎNG kidding!!!! he's only the best QB statisitcally in NCAA history. Because he can't launch a ball 90 yards in the air and isn't 6'5"? CM has what great QB's need in this league, leadership, accuracy, brains and work ethic. In reality the prototype QB's rarely work out for every 1 Peyton Manning, there are 10, jamarcus russell, Jeff George, Derek Andersons and Todd Maranivich's out there.
So because Jason White put up incredible stats at Oklahoma, he is a great QB prospect. There's a saying DiamDawg used to have, I believe it's "Stats are for losers". There are and were many problems with Colt as a prospect. He played in an offense that was nothing like what he would run in the NFL, though that doesn't seem to be a huge issue. His arm is not strong. You can diminish that all you want, but it's important. There are very few successful starting QB's in the NFL with arms as weak as his. Maybe he can make up for that with great accuracy, maybe he can't.
There are plenty of QB's who have leadership, brains and accuracy. Alex Smith of SF is a great leader, he's incredibly smart, and he's one of the most accurate guys in the game. But his arm sucks, and he has failed.
I'm not saying Colt can be the guy, and I'm not saying he can't. But you are kidding yourself if you don't think he has to overcome his lack of his arm strength.
Deep, the two balls you are referring to specfically, I think you need to rewatch again...
The one to Watson, he gave up on his route... That was a PERFECT throw to Watson in the endzone.
The one to Cribbs was just trying to exploit a matchup. Throw the ball up, and let your receiver make a play. That ball could have been thrown better, but given how he has played thusfar, I'm not too upset about it.
I will try to rewatch them, but I'm not even referring to those here. Just watch any deep ball Colt throws. He gets too much air under the ball. That's not the biggest concern in a WCO, but it's not something you want to see either.
I really think Deep is nitpicking to prove his point.. to be honest, you gotta look at the body of work to see the truth and Colt doesn't have enough in the pros to make a determination yet. not one that has real value anyway.
He does have a pretty decent college career that shows a lot of the stuff he CAN do but hasn't had the opportunity to show in the Pros yet.
Time will tell, I'm pretty damn happy with the way he played yesterday and in the pittsburgh loss.. the Saints game,, eh,, he didn't do anything to lose that game so I guess that's a positive.
for the doubters, go listen to the kids presser.. he's an amazingly calm guy.. unflappable really. Doesn't get to low, doesn't get to high..
Good kid with a good head on his shoulders.. I'd really like him to make it as our starter for the next 10 years.. as Forrest Gump would say,,, "One Less Thing"
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: to be honest, you gotta look at the body of work to see the truth and Colt doesn't have enough in the pros to make a determination yet. not one that has real value anyway.
I'm pretty sure I've said that about 10 times now. My only problem was the people definitively stating that Colt was "The Guy".
You gotta quit letting "those people" get to you, though.
Do I think Colt will be "the guy"? Yes. But, not based on 3 games in the NFL. If you remember, I was a HUGE Colt McCoy pimp leading all the way up to the draft.
I'm impressed by what he's done so far, because he hasn't exactly had an easy road.
I'm not ready to say "Okay, we got our franchise QB", yet... But he HAS already earned the right to play the rest of the year and see where we think we need to go in the draft.
I think it's been mentioned that Colt's deep ball has improved already. I'm not sure how you can improve on your deep ball since, supposedly, you either have it or you don't, but there's definitely a difference between his throwing now and the preseason. He also seems to be able to get plenty of zip on all but the longest throws. I, personally, didn't notice that he had too much air under the ball on that pass to Moore early in the game. McCoy put it where only Moore could grab it.
It also seems like the coaching staff is slowly taking the training wheels off of Colt. They had him throw a couple long balls, and even though the playbook can still be considered "dumbed down", there is a trend pointing in the opposite direction. I'd love to see them really open the playbook against team that isn't a juggernaut.
There's no doubt that Peyton Hillis and our defense won the game for us yesterday. McCoy had small contributions, but I'm seeing his contributions increase on a weekly basis.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: So because Jason White put up incredible stats at Oklahoma, he is a great QB prospect. There's a saying DiamDawg used to have, I believe it's "Stats are for losers".
Are wins for losers? Because "most wins by a college QB" is his trademark stat.
Certainly McCoy hasn't done anything to put himself in the Pro Bowl yet (like Derek Anderson did) but he has won the confidence of his team, if not his head coach, and that hasn't happened around here in a long time.
He does still have a ton to prove before he's called "the guy," but he hasn't shown any reason to be pessimistic yet.
I don't disagree with much of what you said. The deep ball can be improved as mechanics improve. Tom Brady came into the NFL with a fairly poor deep ball, but his mechanics improved, and his arm strength got a little better. Then he didn't have to loft his deep ball quite as much.
Yesterday, Colt didn't have to make too many challenging throws, so the arm wasn't much of an issue. But we've seen it a few times this year where he didn't get quite enough zip on the ball and it hurt. I'm talking about deep outs and routes across the middle.
You guys may not be able to tell, but I'm actually really excited. The Browns are winning, and looking good in every aspect. The o-line is playing as well as, if not better than ever, and the defense has been lights out. We have a running back who has everything we love in Cleveland, and most importantly, we have a QB who isn't hurting us. I don't remember the last time we had an accurate QB starting for the Browns. That's a pretty good start.
Quote: Yesterday, Colt didn't have to make too many challenging throws
He actually made 3 or 4 challenging throws, and a bunch of smart throws.
The 2 throws on the run to Cribbs and Robiske immediately come to mind as elite level plays. He also had a really nice back shoulder throw that not many QBs make.
Not every throw will be a "OMG I can't believe what I just saw" throw. Many times, and many games, the QB will just make a lot of routine, ordinary, hit the open guy type throws. The plus and elite guys make a few of those "Holy crap, I can't believe I just saw that" type throws. McCoy did have several of those, and yes, they were challenging throws.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I find it a little ironic that the week Holmgren expresses concern about not getting the WR involved they start spreading the ball around and we see them involved quite a bit more in the game plan.
Quote: Not every throw will be a "OMG I can't believe what I just saw" throw. Many times, and many games, the QB will just make a lot of routine, ordinary, hit the open guy type throws. The plus and elite guys make a few of those "Holy crap, I can't believe I just saw that" type throws. McCoy did have several of those, and yes, they were challenging throws.
We had plenty of "OMG, I can't believe what I just saw" throws from DA and BQ. Unfortunately, they were the short flat passes that either killed a bunch of worms or gave the receivers deep bone bruises in their hands or sternums ... lacking either touch or accuracy or both. Simple competence at QB is a huge upgrade for us, and McCoy has a big upside. He may never be "elite", but I will be happy with "damn good".
Quote: I find it a little ironic that the week Holmgren expresses concern about not getting the WR involved they start spreading the ball around and we see them involved quite a bit more in the game plan.
I know what you're saying G-Man, but I imagine Holmgren had already touched on that topic numerous times behind closed doors.
The throws to Watson and Cribbs downfield were quite awful. Both had too much air under them and didn't give the receiver a chance.
Colt has played good football. He's had very few inaccurate throws and very few bad decisions. But to say that he's shown the smarts and accuracy of Bernie is quite ridiculous.
I agree with you on all this, except the throw to Cribbs. Cribbs slowed and stopped. If he kept running, it looked like it was on the money. don't know if that was cribbs or mccoy screwing that up.
Quote: I find it a little ironic that the week Holmgren expresses concern about not getting the WR involved they start spreading the ball around and we see them involved quite a bit more in the game plan.
Well, Massaquoi is back to being healthy, so that helped. Robiske had his 1 catch.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Yeah, Cribbs slowed on that long one, but Cribbs bailed out McCoy on that diving catch for the first down late in the game. McCoy was on the run and fired. The ball had lots of zip, and lots of wobble at the same time. Cribbs laid out and grabbed it for a great catch.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Since you seem to be nitpicking, I'll nitpick right back.
The clear majority of the throws in that video you posted were perfect slo-mo spirals. There were a couple wobblers (I counted 3 out of the ones where you could see the spiral).
My main beef with that throw was that Cribbs had to bail him out.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
One more question (and I preface by saying I only saw the Oakland highlights, and heard second-hand recap of the game by an Oakland fan that sits next to me at work).
Who had a better game, Jason Campbell or Colt McCoy?
From what I saw from McCoy, and what I heard/saw about Campbell, I would say McCoy had a better game. Campbell looked like he got REALLY lucky on all the big plays. He only made a couple good throws.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Quote: My main beef with that throw was that Cribbs had to bail him out.
Colt was on the run, Cribbs was on the run and was covered.. McCoy put it out in front of him, Cribbs made a nice play.. it was not an easy throw but it was completed because the throw was good enough and it was a nice catch..
Quote: My main beef with that throw was that Cribbs had to bail him out.
Really?
It was a good catch, no doubt. But to nitpick something like that? It was a catch any decent WR will and should make. It was put where it needed to be put, while McCoy was rolling out hard, being chased. And that's the throw you have beef with?
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
There is a reason why we have athletes playing WR, they are going to occasionally make a nice play and "bail" out our QB. I swear it seems like everyone here expects a perfectly thrown ball everytime regardless of conditions.
Quote: My main beef with that throw was that Cribbs had to bail him out.
isn't that Cribb's Job? isn't that what Cribbs is paid to do.
there is...wait for it:
NO SUCH THING AS A WR BAILING OUT HIS QB
this is the NFL folks, perfection and perfect pass only happen in Tecmo Bowl and fantasy land.
Jerry Rice "so called" bailed out Joe Montana and Steve Young all the freaking time...atleast 10 to 12 times a game on a weekly basis for years..just like Reed and Lofton did for Jim ?Kelly, and how Duper and Clayton did for Marino.
a WR/Te job is to go out there and "Catch" the football..no excuses...a ball hits in the hands or anywhere inside the numbers should be caught period...end of discussion
Listen to Michael Irvin..he tells it like it is...any ball above the waist and with reaching distance of your arms without jumping above yourt head should be caught period.
by the way Irvin bailed Aikman out more times then you could count during his career
are the receivers "baling out a QB" or are they catching the ball....i think they are catching the ball
I am glad Cribbs manned up and caught the Ball...he earned his paycheck..players take notes! catch the ball..no excuses...catch the ball..
I wasn't really nitpicking... It's more of a pet peeve of mine when anyone talks about an ugly ball, by ANY QB... You just happened to bring it up, and it bugged me lol.
J/C Is there really a debate over weather Colt is the franchise QB and questioning his deep ball? He's a rookie who has gone 2-1 against 3 premier teams to start his career. Yes team efforts that he didn't screw up ala Delhomme against Tampa Bay. Also comparing him to other QB's such as Phil Simm? He's nobody else, he's Colt McCoy and has his own skill set and weknesses. He's a young QB who has shown more promise and an real ability than any QB since 1999 and there is actually a select few who want to pee on the parade. Amazing!!
Loved watching his games as a kid. The guy had wheels and could sling it.
Got to say I've been impressed with Colt so far. Don't know if it's because I set the expectations so low or not. But I've had fun watching him play. What a great game against the Patriots.
Our guys were finding holes in the mid-deep zones and Colt was finding them. Even the wheel route to Hillis was a thing of beauty on both ends. What a game.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
), why don't we compare him to the QB that he most resembles and is probably his ceiling (at least to me):
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
