DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Time to make a change...again

Once in awhile the stars align. Once in a great while the impossible occurs. Once in awhile someone defies all the odds and picks the right 6 digits in the lottery and is set for life......and now Diam and I have agreed. Anything truly can happen with time. <img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Where have I EVER said that?


Read my post ... I am not totally ignoring that we have less-than-desirable talent and a great deal of youth.


Look, just because I disagree with you does not have anything to do with my intelligence. I think he HAS been given a chance to demonstrate whether he is a true NFL Head Coach.[/quote]


Ok...so what is it about this team and it's coaching that makes RAC a guy...hmmm...not NOT the guy...but not necessarily THE guy either.


Where did I ever say that? RAC has demonstrated over the last 27 games what type of HC he is. The last five quarters of football were the straw that broke the camels back. Sorry, but it's been building for much longer than the last two games and I have been very clear on that point.


Diam, I think you are getting me confused with someone else. Where did I say we had more talent than the Steelers? We had them beat...outplayed them for three quarters...then went into hold-the-line mode and got beat AGAIN. Yeah, the players confidence in themselves and the coaching just skyrocketed after that debacle.


I think our defense had played very well. The CB play has been way above expectation. RAC is a great defensive coach.


Ahhh, there is where we disagree. Just 'keeping us in it' is a problem when we were 'takin' it to 'em'...AGAIN.


Finally you answered my question. Oddly enough though, you did so by actually NOT answering my question.

Edited: And BTW, that's an ok response. I'm just looking for some detail that helps me believe he IS the guy...and other than time, I can't find one.

[color:"red"] What I said was that we could lose as many games as in '05 but actually take steps forward by having the young players develop. From where I'm sitting, I see guys like Bodden, Winslow, Jones, Wimbley, and Jackson making strides. The McGinnests and Washingtons of the world were never meant to be longterm fixes, only shortterm stopgaps. They weren't brought here to make the team a winner now. They were brought here to bridge the gap while draftees developed. My opinion was very much in the minority. I see no reason to change my beliefs now.
[/color]

And it's true..the guys WITH TALENT are actually showing some or a lot (depending on certain things) of what they are capable of..and the ones with little talent are showing that also..

If you look at the whole situation, it's pretty simple. The team was completely dismantled before last season. Then, this offseason, there were only so many holes that could be filled. Savage and RAC went defense first, with offense being more or less tabled until this offseason. With the side of the ball that was concentrated on, the defense, there have been vast improvement. RAC deserves more time to fill the wholes in talent because he has proven, along with Savage, that they are going in the right direction. The defense was focused on and it improved. They both deserve the opportunity to continue what they started.

What I want to believe

When RAC & CO got here, they found a huge mess. Bad attitudes, bad schemes, atrocious play, direction, and discipline.

They immediately got to work tearing it down and building it back up again.

They decided to start with special teams play. They found a great punter, kept a very good punt returner, kept a good kicker, and found a very good kick returner.

They emphasized the importance on special teams and the special teams play improved dramatically. Better talent + better coaching and schemes and discipline resulted in dramatically improved special teams play. Still need to work on the play-killing penalties.

Then they went to work on improving the defense. Quick work for them you might say?even with the rebuilding. Then, in the second year, we lose every cornerback we had. After a few tough weeks, the street free agent DBs start to become?dare I say?better than serviceable. It is truly remarkable that such non-existent, undeveloped, hidden talent could be coached out of these guys.

With the special teams units solid and a defense that is playing unbelievably well -considering the CB situation ? it?s time to fix the offense. Not that they didn?t know the O needed fixing. They simply had their hands full with following their plan and getting an NFL championship caliber D and special teams play.

Like looking at your finger after you know you just cut the snot out of it, they look at the O with an eye towards getting it better. It?s not pretty?they got to work.

The timeline is right about now in regards to when they have actually been able to focus on the O?and THAT is why they need more time. They are just about NOW able to start fixing the O. Starting with moving on from Mo.

They have developed a plan and have followed that plan with great success. Just because we do not KNOW the plan does not mean there is not a plan in existence. Unfortunately, the O is a bigger problem than they thought with injuries to key players and our FA gem of an O Lineman.

We should stand firm in the belief that RAC & Co will fix the O, just like they have fixed the special teams and D. Unfortunately, it?s just a matter of time. Let?s give it to them.

CoachB,

I must have been typing when you answered my question...while I was answering my own question.

I really do want to believe...I'm just having a tough time getting back to there.

I understand, but look at the whole offseason. It became public that the focus was improving the defense. Now, knowing that as we have from the draft until now, did the defense get upgraded and improved? Even with the injuries they have played above average and when you consider the injuries, outstanding. So, judge them thus far on what they've been able to build. The defense is solid. Give them next year to build on the offense and then judge the strides they've made. Patience is the hardest thing to have. Remember, without some enduring a couple of embarrassing seasons, Cowboy fans would never have enjoyed the dynasty of the Jimmy Johnson era.

It sounds a little like you are backing off your call for RAC's head. Keep the faith brother; RAC must go!! He is simply over his head in the role of a head coach and he is not the guy that the Browns need long term. Why put off the inevitable? Let's make the call now & allow a replacement come in to take the team for a test drive over the next 4-5 games so that he can evaluate talent in a game setting & prepare for the off season. Our focus should be on an effective replacement not how to patch the team together for a couple of meaningless wins. How does Steve Mariucci sound to you?

I'm going to try and answer your question, although I think your question is a bit unfair, and usually, when people are unfair, I blast their ass!

Positives:

The team has made fewer mental mistakes than recent Brown's teams, and it ain't even close.

We are not making the constant stupid false starts, illegal procedures, motion penalties, neutral zone infractions, holds on kickoffs and punt returns, defensive offside penalties as in the past.

Why is that important? Well........a coach who has a disciplined team is doing his job. Believe me when I tell you.......that is a direct reflection of coaching.

While I defended Butch at the end, I was one of his first critics, and the one fault of his that I could never justify was the amount of mental mistakes his team made.

RAC's team is not making those mistakes.

Second........RAC has the respect of the team. Danielle, has said that many times, and her husband is a player on the team. Not once has she even insinuated that the team doesn't respect RAC. She did throw Mo under the bus though. LOL......

Don't you think that having the respect of the team is a sign that he hasn't lost the team? I do.

Thirdly.......I think the defense has overachieved. They aren't all that talented. Hell, Diam, Toad, and I bad-mouthed the talent-level of the defense last year. They played much better than any of us thought. RAC is a defensive coach and his influence understandably will reach the D before the O.

Fourth------the Special teams have improved considerably in the two years since RAC arrived. That cannot be disputed.

Finally........you wanna gloss over the fact that he deserves more time. And while I am trying to be nice, I think it is total BS that you are ignoring this. The bottom line is that RAC doesn't have enough talent to win.

It would be unfair to throw him out before all the pieces were in place. Hell, I was one of the very few who used the same argument about Mo. Tell me, has the O improved since he was fired? Despite what some will tell you, it hasn't.

Why not? Because we have many flaws on O. Take a look:

----An OL that is lacking in talent and is not deep. Is that RAC's fault, or Savage's?

---An OL that had no opportunity to develop continuity during the all-important mini-camps, QB school, and TC. It can't be ignored. Blocking must be done as an unit. One single breakdown or miscommunication will lead to disaster.

---A qb who is young and has some flaws.

---A TE, despite playing very well, is still basically a rookie. You think he doesn't make mistakes? LOL

---A WR who is young, overrated, and runs poor routes. You think he is making sight adjustments.

Dude, these problems are real. They are not excuses. And I don't give a flying [censored] who is the OC or the HC, the problems will continue to rear their ugly heads until we improve the talent and develop some continuity.

You fire the HC, the new guy will want to bring in his own players and system. That will set us back even further. Haven't you guys learned anything from our recent history?????

I'm not saying RAC is a great coach. What some of us are trying to tell you is that it is too early to make that final judgement, because all of the pieces are not in place.

You don't fire a race car driver because he is not winning races when he is driving a POS car. We've subscribed to that theory for too long and it needs to stop.

For a long time, I bad-mouthed the Brown's talent and was called negative and a hater. I was simply trying to warn some of you of what can happen when you have unrealistic expectations. Unrealistic expectations cause knee-jerk reactions. Knee-jerk reactions lead to more losing. It's been documented and prove time and time again.

It's time for the madness to stop!

Btw.............I ain't sold on RAC or Savage. However, I don't want them replaced. I want them to see their plan through. While I ain't guaranteeing they will be successful, I sure as hell know that they have a better chance of finding success than starting over will.

Take that one to the bank!

At this point, the only reason to switch or bring in Dorsey or Anderson is to save Frye from getting a beating. What good is Dorsey or Anderson going to do for us at this stage of the season? All of the teams you mentioned, except the Titans, are contending for the division or a wildcard spot. We are a long ways from being there.

So using Dorsey or Anderson would only be effective in saving Charlie's health. I would not expect either Dorsey or Anderson to be anymore effective in game situations than Frye, due to the pourous OL and lack of a running game. Of course, if those two problems were not there then Frye would probably be doing a much better job. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Vers,

I can agree with every point you made...but still question RAC's game day management, team preparation, and decision-making.

However, what you really have done is FINALLY make the argument why RAC should stay...why he seems to be an NFL HC...why we should be willing to give him more time...not just simply saying that he needs more time. You also covered more than simply the lack of talent and youth. I think my question was more than fair...you answered it. Whether I agree or not is not really what I was after?if that makes any sense. I think it's a question that everyone in the Browns organization should ask and answer.

Some of what you posted I also posted above in my bi-polar post stating "What I want to believe".

The team IS more disciplined and makes fewer mistakes...although sometimes it doesn't feel that way...but it's true. That is a sign of good coaching...or at least BETTER coaching.

Regarding "losing the team": While I appreciate Danielle's input, I am not certain that Hank would tell her that HE thinks RAC lost the team or if he did say that RAC lost the team, I doubt she would post that. So I appreciate her input, but just because she says RAC hasn't lost the team (albeit through Hank) that doesn't mean she, or Hank for that matter, is right...and YES, I think Hank knows one heck of a lot more about the team than I EVER will. I get that.

"Losing the team" is a figure of speech and rears its ugly head in different ways. It doesn't mean the players won't listen?or do what they are told...or work their tails off...it questions whether they truly believe that these coaches are going to make them Champs. You can't measure it...and the way they played Sunday sure had the look of players who do not believe in their coaches or the game plan...or themselves for that matter.

It is not as preposterous a possibility that some RAC supporters want to believe and not as much of a certainty as some RAC detractors want to believe. At this point it is just opinions. We will see...and I hope you are right.

The defense has definitely overachieved and the special teams play is greatly improved. All agreement there and can be attributed to good coaching. I said that above in my bi-polar post.


No, I am not and have not glossed over the fact that he deserves more time. It is not a fact...it is an opinion. I'm saying that, IMO, he has had enough time to demonstrate the skills of an NFL HC. I acknowledge that he does not have enough talent to beat the playoff-caliber teams on a regular basis. I agree that he needs more time to acquire the talent necessary to be a consistent winner and regular in the post season. It's what he is doing with the talent that we have now in regards to game day management, team preparation, and decision-making that scares me.

Will better talent make RAC look better at these things? I could accept THAT argument I suppose...although I seem to be the only one actually making that particular argument.


I agree with everything you said here and I've always known that the problems were real. Just because I don?t think RAC is the guy does not mean I do not see the problems. My point in all this is that I needed more of an argument why, maybe I should have said once the problems are solved, RAC will be the guy. You've given me plenty to consider and a lot of things that I can find agreement with.

I think your post and my bi-polar post are very similar and I think I see the problems with talent, youth, and injuries. But I remain skeptical. Whether that's fair or not? Who knows?

Lastly, I expect that Savage and Lerner still believe in RAC...whether the players do or do not and RAC will get another year, at least, to prove he IS the guy once the talent and youth get better.

And you know what? I'll support that as a diehard Browns fan...but I'll still question it and look for RAC to get better at the things I see as being his problems beyond talent, youth, or time.

BTW, thanks for the response. I'm not a raving lunatic or someone who flys off the handle at every Browns loss or mistake...although they kill me a little every time they happen...or someone who has zero knowledge of this team...nor am I an Xs & O's expert by any stretch. And I will readily admit that. So I appreciate a response that is well thought out and spends the bandwidth actually making a point... whether I completely agree or not.