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I know the homers and Mangini's "process" rhetoric by now: they say it's necessary to take those steps back in order to get better...I think it's BS...
I thought that last year, I was disappointed with our slow start this year.. I think if Jake doesn't get hurt we win week 1.. I think swapping QBs in and out the first 5 weeks hurt but if you are a "silver lining" guy like I am.. I think we have finally settled that.. that's not to say Colt couldn't get hurt, but I think we know who the QB is at least for the near future. But I for one, did not expect to take steps back this year.. and I don't think we did, we competed hard against pretty decent teams, we just didn't win.. as opposed to last year where we look absolutely disgusting in the first.. oh, I don't .. 12 weeks.
yebat' Putin
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Statistically (yds) we haven't,
Stats are for losers. 
Seriously, we just went toe to toe with 4 of the best teams in the league. We went 2-2, with an overtime loss to probably THE best team in the league, and you're not happy with the progress we're making? 
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Again, I don't accept the "improvement" from those 12 games as an excuse...we played horrible football there...just because we got to competitive level, which should be expected anyway, doesn't mean it's real improvement..those 12 games were way worse than Crennel-era...so I should be happy to be bakc to Crennel-era levels? Nah...
We beat teams like PIT, JAX and OAK in our late run and people around here said the same things they say now...yet we come out and lose to TB and KC, 2 teams that picked ahead of us this April and didn't look anywhere near as supposedly "good" as us late last season....
So here we are now again talking about "improvements" after putting up stinkers yet again, doing the rock bottom to bottom 3rd yo-yo and getting excited over from bad to AVG games ...not buying it...let's see if we can beat a team we beat last year that has something to play for now....based on talent we should be able to beat them...we have much better OL and DL play and should dominate the trenches against JAX...let's hope the gameplan is Hillis, Hillis and more Hillis with some PA-rollouts for McCoy...anything else would be outsmarting
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SF and CAR played "toe to toe" with NO, ARI beat NO too
DEN and DET played "toe to toe" with NYJ the 2 weeks before us, had them beat (they led late in the game and had them beat, we never did)
...and now look at the records of those teams
Whoever thinks we'll run the table or that beating JAX, STL etc will be rather easy, will be in for a shock come gametime
#gmstrong
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They did it one game, on one Sunday.
We did it in 4 straight games. The combined record of the teams we just got done playing is 26-10.
Find another team in the NFL that will play teams with a winning percentage of .722 in 4 straight games.
You won't be able to do it.
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Statistically (yds) we haven't, W-L we have...that means we haev faced some overachieving teams and I consider TB, KC and NE as overachievers right now
I can't believe you brought this up again. You just undercut your entire argument, AGAIN!
Those teams have 'overacheived' because of who they have faced. Schedule is huge in the NFL where teams overall are so close to each other in talent.
from my earlier response to your above 'overachieving teams'
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Also, look at those 3 teams you brought up:
Kansas City - 34-47 - .420 %
New England - 37-44 - .457 %
Tampa Bay - 33-48 - .407 %
Of course their record will be better than their stats. They are playing easier opponents. The point was that if we played easier opponents, we would have a better record. Simple.
#gmstrong
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Well, and we were one of those easier opponents being 3-6, right? 3-6 = .333 and those teams have faced a .400+%....so what does that mean if we, supposedly better than we are, were one of their cupcakes in their SOS equation? DET had NYJ beaten, DAL roughed up NYG....there are NO MORE cupcakes and NO MORE elite teams in this league
Everyone keeps saying we're better....you're never better than your record, maybe after 2-3 weeks but not after over half a season. We WOULD be better if we WOULD have beaten teams we were supposed to be able to beat like KC and TB...we didn't....that's why they ARE 5-4 and we ARE 3-6
Look at all 3-6 teams...the've played competitive games all season against good teams too..and yes they've had 4 of those easily...just look them up or go back to my post about all other 3-6 teams...yet, we are the only 3-6 fanbase that is "excited" of things to come etc....go ask some DEN and ARI fans what they think being 3-6...ask them if they feel great having Tebow, having smashed KC or NO...what is it with Brownsfans that we get excited so easily? Years of being a loser I guess...gotta put things in perspective
#gmstrong
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you're never better than your record
the post in entirety is a valid point if you actually stuck to it. this line sums it up.
however, you completely undercut all of that when you start saying we haven't played a statistically tough schedule and try to undercut our SOS by saying that KC, TB, and NE are not as good as their record.
either all teams are as good (or bad) as their record. or there is more to it than simple W/L. you cannot have it both ways.
#gmstrong
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So... Why are you a Browns fan again?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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what is it with Brownsfans that we get excited so easily?
This time, it's not just the fans. Analysts on all 3 networks have been seeing the changes as well, and a reporting much the same as what you read here.
They're seeing what we do... a team that is establishing a core of quality players, buying into a system that works, and playing competitive games. True, the W/L record looks dismal, but the quality of play is on another level from what they've seen year after year... and they're reporting as such.
Browns fans know what it's like to see their team down by 3 score at halftime. They know what blowouts smell like. They've seen halfhearted, lackluster performances more than most. They are seeing something very different from that now... so there is a sense of hope, and it's understandable.
You and others can slamdance with stats 'til the cows come home, but I know what I see on Sundays.... and it's a damnsight better than what I've seen since '99. For the first time since The Return I see an actual TEAM on the field... and that's where it all begins.
I know you can see it, too. Your posts have alluded to some of the good things we all see. Sometimes, I think you just enjoy playing the Devil's Advocate role for entertainment's sake, which is fine. It's not my place to dictate how another uses this board or views the Browns, but you have to see at least a little of why folks aren't as dejected as they once were.
I'm excited about seeing my team totally in a game through 74 minutes, 44 seconds. That's a lot more exciting than seeing them down 24-3 with 4 minutes left in the first half.
Improvement is improvement... despite the record.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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An them I saw her face.....Now I'm a Believer....
Go Monkeys
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Smash Mouth!
Dang kinda showen my age...... 
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Not a Trace of Doubt in my Mind
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Dang kinda showen my age......
I thought Shrek wrote that song
#gmstrong
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Quote:
An them I saw her face.....Now I'm a Believer....
Go Monkeys
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Smash Mouth!
Dang kinda showen my age......
Then I better not say anything,... 
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So let me get this straight.
Are you saying you've actually watched this team week in and week out and don't think we're a much improved team from last year? Is that what you're trying to say?
That you don't believe that if we keep seeing this same improvement the next few years each season that we won't be a playoff caliber team?
What exactly do you believe and don't believe?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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....the TB and KC losses still hurt and are the main reason why I don't trust and believe in this coaching staff....they simply take too long to "know" their own team
I know the homers and Mangini's "process" rhetoric by now: they say it's necessary to take those steps back in order to get better...I think it's BS...just excuses in order to highlight the positive games and hide the bad ones (thus absolving "the process" from any criticism, making it an apology for anything...Mangini himself revealed it by resorting to "faith" and "believe" in one of his "I'm so open to anyone" interveiws when he was about to get fired late last season) ....reality thogh is that ALL of them count, not just the latest one...at the end of the day you're as good as your record says, I loved that about Romeo: he wasn't BSing anyone....at least he was a honest bad HC. It's all about bottom line performance...and we're still bottom 3rd in this league
There's actually more tripe in this poat than there is in potted meat.
You go through three QB's in what, five weeks? And all three just came here this year, right? Oh yeah, he should have known.
It took forever to be competative last year. This year we were at least competative, except for Pitt. right out of the gate.
But some people can't recognize what's right in front of their face if it bit them. Yeah, I should have known.
Sorry, but to acquire team chemistry, work ethic and that "team mentality", the egos have to go! Short term? You may see that as step backs. But in the long haul? It's what you actually need to do to build a team.
No one part is greater than the sum of whole. Elementary my dear Watson.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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No one part is greater than the sum of whole.And that's what makes this Board pretty darned good,... 
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Yes, BUT if Braylon and KW2 posted here it might be different!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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If I knew they were here, I wouldn't be,...
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Yes but wouldn't that be "taking a step backwards"?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So let me get this straight.
Are you saying you've actually watched this team week in and week out and don't think we're a much improved team from last year? Is that what you're trying to say?
Jesus
Which part of "we ARE improved" didn't you get? It's not enough improvement , especially compared to other crappy teams from last season. Also, it's always improvement after setbacks, going back and forth between "bad" and "Average"
4 of 5 teams that picked ahead of us and 7 of the other 9 teams that picked in the top 10 have a better record than us right now...and I'm sure they had roster turnover too, so save yourself this lame excuse...process my @$$
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That you don't believe that if we keep seeing this same improvement the next few years each season that we won't be a playoff caliber team?
What exactly do you believe and don't believe?
PLAYOFFS !??...PLAY-OFFS??!!
I do believe we have improved DURING this season...I also do beleive that we regressed DURING the offseason because we already "improved" enough to a level of beating teams like KC and TB and being THEM record wise = in the PO hunt
Look, other crap teams, in fact many this year ARE in the PO hunt, we aren't one of them....so either their "process" is better or their players are better (they aren't) or their coache's are better (WAS, STL and KC do have much better coaching) or they're luckier (TB maybe, not seen enough of them though)...but I'm sure they're not ALL getting lucky and we poor Dawgs are just unlucky pups...cmon, do you really "believe" those lame excuses?
You can "process" this away with the BS rhetoric, but that's reality after 10 weeks of NFL football
All of you bought this "process" crap hook, line and sinker instead of just assessing what you see game by game and than asses all as a whole after the season (and I hope Holmgren does that this time instead of going with a season garbage time winning streak)
Instead what you do is, after a win to hail the process and after losses playing the wise uncle saying "process takes time, you know"...2 game win streaks become "process works", 3 game losing streaks are "process takes time"....what a BS, it's an apology, the most blatant I've ever encountered trying to make an argument
That's why I already called it the "Malcovich-Malcovich" argument (whoever has seen the film "Being John Malcovich knows what scene I'm talking about)...it's a farce....I see it as one and have to laugh....but you all believe this crap. I know I watch a comedy, you guys think you watch thriller with a happy end...but there will be just running gags over and over and over..."process" has already become the biggest one.
What I believe? I believe we are 3-6...and we pretty much deserved to win every game we won, and lose every game we lost...that's what I believe after seeing every minute of every game...WE....ARE...3-6...and not better, just because we have spanked the Pats and lost 4 close ones we, after all, deserved to lose (shouldn't have lost 2, but deserved for stubborn coaching blunders)....
#gmstrong
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You know, I know that you know the game well enough to be a witness to this. Some teams build themselves up to "win now" and some teams build for "the long haul". We've seen teams go from zero to 120 in no time only to end back up at zero very quickly. Then we've seen teams build up talent over a few years. At that point they start stockpiling talent so when one guy goes down, you just put in another body and never skip a beat. So once again, you're basing your theories on the "immediate results". To seriously place any validity in what you're saying, you'll have to give it a couple of years. THEN you can have more people take you seriously. If two years from now we're not noticably better than teams like KC, T. Bay, etc.... then your point is valid. But you should know as well as anyone that some teams build and last for the long haul, while some are nothing more than a flash in the pan for a season. And most people on this board know that too. In 1999 the Patriots hired Belichick after the season. Now they weren't total bottom feeders when he went there. So in 99, they won eight games. But guess what happened in 2000? Belichick took a team who had been 9-7 in 98 and 8-8 in 99 and went a whopping....................5-11 in 2000. And the rest? Well that's history. So the coach who made his team to be arguably the best team of the decade took a step backwards before he could move forward. So yes, we took a step backwards last year in talent. Our two biggest threats on O had egos bigger than the Empire State building. Now you do the math here. Isn't the team you build, built on the draft? So how did Phil do there? What was left here to work with? Unlike Belichick, Mangini didn't have an 8-8 team to start with. He had one side of an OL, which was helped address in Mack. No QB to speak of. No reliable running game. The D pretty much sucked. No real secondary at all. Mangini wasn't afforded the luxury of taking over a team with an 8-8 record and some decent talent like Belichick did. Yet you yourself said you believe we are improved. Our secondary isn't great.Too much youth. Yet most of can see great potential in that youth. So yes, wheather you believe it or not it is a process when the cupboard is bare. Which was the case here. And it's obvious to most of us, that if our drafts keep going like this one did, soon we too will be able to stockpile talent. Not this coming off-season because we still have obvious holes to fill The history of the NFL itself since the salary cap went into effect shows little to no validity in your favor. Yours is based on one season to the next. Not over the long haul. Now Gini was in over his head last year. He obviously isn't capable, at least at this stage of his career in "doing it all". But I do believe he has maxamized the talent he has. You don't buy into this but the problem with that is I'm not trying to sell anything. I've been studying this game for four decades now. I know that probably doesn't mean anything to you either but..................... Bottom line is, I've watched this whole "team building process" you deny even happens for a very long time. And was plenty old enough to break down the salary cap and closely watch how that impacted the teams and the building of teams. So wheather you believe it or not, I'm a eye witness that this is how the "process" works. So two years from now please tell me how wrong I am. Tell me how much better T. Bay and KC are than us. You won't be able to do that. For now, we have the people in place to draft the talent and we have a coach who can maximize the talent we have and yes, he's got room to grow and mature too. But we will be bettter than them. Much better. Because we have the right people doing it the right way. for the long haul. I simply can't and won't buy into what you're saying because I've seen otherwise too many times. I watched Holmgren do it in Green Bay I watched Da Tuna do it at the Giants I watched Belichick do that in NE Sorry Bud, but my eyes and the history of the NFL show your case is basicly non-existant. But that's okay cause I'm not buying what you're selling either. Damn! I ended up writing a book again!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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i think itd be nice if it was that black and white...but there are many factors that are muddying up this argument.
i agree that 3-6 isnt a good record, but i also believe that the record is not indicitive of this team's ability. Michael Silver of yahoo wrote it today..."if the season started over today, don't you think this team would just push its way into the playoffs?" If you want to look at records...we're a tale of 2 teams and they all go back to the starting QB and the roster continuity. We lacked leadership early, and defensively Scott Fujita has really stepped up. Chris Gocong has really come into his own, and our defense has become a tight unit that has been by and large quite formidable. Our offense went from a unit that couldnt sustain drives, and now does. With almost no WR talent, we still sustain drives and move the ball and take time off the clock...and can score when we have to.
So...in the past 4 weeks, we've played 4 of the toughest teams in the NFL and have gone 2-2, with one loss coming with 16 seconds left in OT. The media is praising us as an up and coming team. The fans are seeing us as an up and coming team.
I see us as a team that unfortunately did not gel immediately. We had to learn how to win together and we had a couple unfortunate mishaps early in the year (our first 3 games).
while 3-6 is 3-6...we have played the toughest schedule in the NFL by quite a bit (our opponents are winning .658 and next closest is buffalo at .605...I dont have a link for it, but ive looked.
I dont know TB's or KCs or STLs but im guaranteeing it is lower.
The Browns have played exactly 1 team with a losing record and we beat them. of the browns 6 losses, their records are
TB - 6-3
KC - 5-4
Bal 6-3
ATL - 7-2
Pit 6-3
NYJ 7-2
looking at that and saying we should have won 3 of those games (TB, KC, NYJ), and had a 4th Q lead in another (Bal) and were within 1 score in the 4th Q in the other 2 (ATL, Pit) suggests we are a very good 3-6 team.
Much better than some of those 5-4s and 6-3s and 4-5s...is it a bummer that were 3-6? yup...but we're primed for a big run right now...and if youre going to say the record is the record is the record...if we whip off 5 straight right now...you cant...CANNOT...say that theyre bad wins...because using your argument as of now...wins are wins are wins and losses are losses are losses...
if we get to 8-6 going into 2 home games with Baltimore and Pit...thatll say alot...even if we are 7-7, that will say alot to me...and i think its very very possible.
I dont know how you could think otherwise
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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looking at that and saying we should have won 3 of those games (TB, KC, NYJ), and had a 4th Q lead in another (Bal) and were within 1 score in the 4th Q in the other 2 (ATL, Pit) suggests we are a very good 3-6 team.
See, that's where I disagree and I'll give you good arguments...we deserved to lose those 3 games...the Jets were simply better, esp. the 2nd H. Nick Folk is the only reason we were in that game as long as we were...he hits 1 of 3 rather easy FGs, which is the minimal norm on 99/100 sundays, and it's a 2 score game in the 4th
Against KC and TB we led for most of the game, even after the pick-6....we just did NOTHING (0p) to win it in the 2nd H of those games...you can't expect to win close games without scoring for an entire half...and you don't deserve it
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Much better than some of those 5-4s and 6-3s and 4-5s...is it a bummer that were 3-6? yup...but we're primed for a big run right now...and if youre going to say the record is the record is the record...if we whip off 5 straight right now...you cant...CANNOT...say that theyre bad wins...because using your argument as of now...wins are wins are wins and losses are losses are losses...
I doubt we'll win 5 straight but if we do I'm sure I'll give props wher it's due...I've done so after our other wins too, even on losses...I think some of you will be in for a shock though the upcoming weeks
#gmstrong
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So yes, wheather you believe it or not it is a process when the cupboard is bare. Which was the case here. And it's obvious to most of us, that if our drafts keep going like this one did, soon we too will be able to stockpile talent. Not this coming off-season because we still have obvious holes to fill
Thomas, Steiny, Rogers, Cribbs, Wright, Rubin, Vickers, DQ, BE and KW is NOT the definition of BARE...we are talking about 6-7 PB caliber players here and 3-4 pretty good ones...Mangini inherited the best Browns roster ANY HC before him got to work with, it was far from good but still the best...and it's not even close....Romeo had Verba at LT and Jason Fisk at NT, remember? and he got more out of it...and we all agree he was a well below AVG HC
Mangini is far from "maxing out" anything...just more apologetics on your part, sorry
#gmstrong
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After having read the repetitious verbage from Mr. D. Brown, I have come to two conclusions:
(1) The only thing in which Mr. Brown is a believer is in his highly inflated opinion of his knowledge of football, an opinion apparently shared by VERY few; and
(2) Although Mr. Brown claims some twisted form of fandom for the Browns, what he says, the insulting way in which he says it, and his continuous berating of the Browns, I find no difference between what he says and what any other troll from any other site would say and how they would say it.
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If two years from now we're not noticably better than teams like KC, T. Bay, etc.... then your point is valid.
Sorry Pit,I ain't about to buy that..The Browns should be on pace with both of those teams right now.
Playing hard gets you all the food U can want at Waffle House..it's time for the Browns to start winning close games and beating teams they are on par with.
Both of those teams have sucked for a while now just like the Browns.
U guys have bought into this 4-5 year plan way too much .Other teams that have floundered have made huge strides in less than 5 years and this organization has been stuck on that crap for too long.
Holmgrem said 3 years..tell ya what next season this team better be in target to make the playoffs not just set the table for 6 wins.
I've seen this coaching staff do some really stupid crap this year and that includes both coordinators, so none of them are off th hook for me.
For instance in this Jet game,Sanchez was hobbling and we didn't put any extra pressure on him.
I heard about the red zone calls from the first half..more stupid playcalling..the last series inside the 5 what the heck were they trying to do?
U run the ball and see what they do,they only had 1 TO left,you make them use it and work the clock..U don't have the weapons,plus a rookie QB..too many bad things could have happened and one did.
Bad throw, stops the clock..they run on second down..pass on 3rd and he almost got sacked in the end zone..stupid..too much time left.
They didn't know what they wanted to do,play for the W or Tie..well they lost.
U getting this?
This staff still does some dumb things and I fear will continue to do so
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 11/19/10 09:40 AM.
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If two years from now we're not noticably better than teams like KC, T. Bay, etc.... then your point is valid.
Sorry Pit,I ain't about to buy that..The Browns should be on pace with both of those teams right now.
Playing hard gets you all the food U can want at Waffle House..it's time for the Browns to start winning close games and beating teams they are on par with.
Both of those teams have sucked for a while now just like the Browns.
This is the point I will make and I will keep making until I'm blue in the face or until it changes.. Your assertion is that Tampa Bay is ahead of us.. you have two arguments to prove that.. they are 6-3 and they squeeked out a last minute victory against us..
Do you know who they have beaten (other than us)?
Carolina twice (1-8)
Cincy (2-7)
St. Louis (4-5)
Arizona (3-6)
Thats their 6 wins... The Steelers beat them bad, the Saints beat them bad and the Falcons beat them in the final seconds.. 3 of their 9 games have been against teams with a winning record and in those games they are 0-3 and were only competitive in one of them.. 8 of our 9 games have been against teams with a winning record, we won 2 of them and were competitive in almost all of them...
I could dissect KC's as well but it only looks marginally better.. Between the Bucs, the Chiefs and the Browns, going into next season when the schedule will likely shake out different, I'd rather be us.
yebat' Putin
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This is the point I will make and I will keep making until I'm blue in the face or until it changes.. Your assertion is that Tampa Bay is ahead of us.. you have two arguments to prove that.. they are 6-3 and they squeeked out a last minute victory against us..
No Pit's assertion is that..I said befre we played both teams we should beat them..I don't consider them better..some in here do but I don't..First ,Tampe is 6-3 and I wouldn't say squeaked out a win,it was handed to them..but they've beaten the opponents they faced..the Browns haven't. I'll continue to say this,the Browns blew at least 3-4 games..and the Jet game is the lastest glaring mark on the list..so tell me, if we're that competitive against playoff teams, we should be winning against lower comp,according to U..right?..thats what I expect.
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I stand by what I said.the Browns shouldn't be start to be winning in two-three years..unless there's a strike next year..this season is the start but they've got to win these close games and it's bad decisions across the board that amounts to the losses,whether it's the players and/or the coaches and it's been both..which is why I say I'm not sold by any means on Mangini and co.
These last 7 games will prove a lot .
Which tells me something..tells me a lot.
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(2) Although Mr. Brown claims some twisted form of fandom for the Browns, what he says, the insulting way in which he says it, and his continuous berating of the Browns, I find no difference between what he says and what any other troll from any other site would say and how they would say it.
Perfectly said NewDawg. 
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I'll continue to say this,the Browns blew at least 3-4 games..and the Jet game is the lastest glaring mark on the list..
I agree. I won't necessarily say we "blew" the games but we weren't able to close out and win.. Playing competitive football requires talent and preparation at this level.. winning is a bit of a distinct skill with requires the talent and prep but also requires belief and confidence... I think we are starting to develop that belief that we can and should win... I strongly believe that as a team we've always prepped and played hard but we HOPED to win more than we believed we SHOULD win... that is the biggest thing I see changing over the last few weeks.
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so tell me, if we're that competitive against playoff teams, we should be winning against lower comp,according to U..right?..thats what I expect.
In general yes, but as has been stated, I think the gap between the Browns, Rams, Chiefs, 49ers, and Bucs is not all that huge to the Patriots, Steelers, Saints etc.. I guess my point is that if we lose a close game to the Jags it isn't going to change my opinion all that much.. we should start winning more and more of those games against middle of the road to bottom standing teams and that is what I'm looking for..
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I stand by what I said.the Browns shouldn't be start to be winning in two-three years..
We need to build on what we started for the remainder of this year and winning should be expected at the very beginning of next year.... This is assuming that Colt is the QB, that the staff remains the same, etc.. if we go flipping all sorts of crap out of order then who the heck knows but if the core of our team remains the same, the young guys will have another year, add a couple pieces.. we should win now... 2 to 3 years we should be talking super bowl, not "starting to win"..
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These last 7 games will prove a lot .
Which tells me something..tells me a lot.
I agree. I want to see a team that not only competes but wins.. I'm not of the opinion that just because we dominated the Patriots by 20 that we should beat the Jags by 30.. the NFL doesn't work that way.. but the Jags, the Panthers, the Dolphins, the Bills, the Bengals.. these are games we should win most of, if not all and then we need to start beating the teams in our division, the Steelers and Ravens....
yebat' Putin
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A win on the road this week with a banged up O-line against a team with a winning record will say a lot about where their heads and hearts are at.
I'm excited to see how they play this week, win or lose. Haven't felt that way half-way through the season in a long, long time.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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there are 2 factors that TB has going for it compared to us (though I still like our team for the long haul better due to our OL, front office, coaching staff, running game, and for some reason LB corps if they keep playing like they have this year). 1. It has one of the youngest rosters in the NFL (whereas we are more middle of the road due to all the vet signings). http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...means-for-2010/2. It is further along in the development of it's QB. And that QB, Josh Freeman, is nails in the 4th quarter (this coming from someone who last year didn't think he would ever figure it out. well, he's figuring it out).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
A win on the road this week with a banged up O-line against a team with a winning record will say a lot about where their heads and hearts are at.
I'm excited to see how they play this week, win or lose. Haven't felt that way half-way through the season in a long, long time.
I felt pretty much the same way and said the same before the Jets game, qualifying any loss as needing to be close. While it was so frustrating a game to lose, we racked up our 9th straight game of highly competitiveness.
We are not one of the best teams in the AFC, but you certainly no longer check that week off on your schedule as a most probable win.
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j/c Not for nothin', but word IS getting out. It seems that Django is fast becomeing the lone "Negative Nancy" on the planet.... _______________________________________ Cleveland Browns on the cusp of stability and winning seasons Cleveland Browns on the cusp of stability and winning seasons By Zac Wassink, Yahoo! Contributor Network 35 minutes ago This article was produced by a Yahoo! Sports user. Submit a story "Why are the Browns always so terrible?" is a question I'm often asked by New York sports fans unfamiliar with Cleveland sports. It's really a complex question that has numerous answers, such as a plethora of worthless draft picks and the lack of serious play makers since 1999. The main thing that has been killing this franchise over the past decade is really quite simple. Stability. Since the Browns returned to the NFL in 1999, the team has had (as of the writing of this piece) five different head coaches and roughly 71 different quarterbacks. Comparing the Browns to Super Bowl winning franchises of the past decade is sad for numerous reasons, but the main thing that stands out is that a head coaching carousel never equals championships. The Patriots have had one head coach over the past ten years. The Steelers have had two. The Colts have had three (Mora's last season was 2001). You get the idea. Before disgruntled Cleveland fans remind me of the team's current record (3-6 as of the writing of this), I want to point out the "on the cusp" that's in the title. I'm well aware that the 2007 Browns were even closer to stability with a rocket-armed quarterback, a "players coach" and a 10-6 record. In hindsight, that team's fall from grace is now very easy to predict. Romeo Crennel just wasn't meant to be a head coach in the NFL and the roster had way too many holes and "me first" players. The biggest quality the 2007 Browns lacked was leadership. We now know that many in the locker room did not respect quarterback Derek Anderson(notes) as the offense's leader and that Crennel was too busy being friends with the guys to be any sort of authority figure. The Browns were a disaster waiting to happen. Even with a losing record, the current crop of Browns are headed in a completely different direction; that being the right one. Rookie QB Colt McCoy(notes) is earning the respect of what will be "his offense" with every snap. Driving down the field for a game-tying score against the Jets is something that either Tom Brady(notes) or Peyton Manning(notes) would struggle to accomplish, and McCoy completed the task looking like a ten-year veteran. Don't be fooled by head coach Eric Mangini's refusal to name McCoy his starting QB. Barring injury, Colt will be taking the snaps for the Browns until the end of 2010 (and hopefully long into the distant future). And what of head coach Eric Mangini? Is 3-6 really something to get excited about? Considering Cleveland's roster and schedule, I'd say so. The Browns lost their first three games by a total of twelve points. The team's worst loss, McCoy's first career start, was a 28-10 "not as bad as the final score indicates" defeat in Pittsburgh. Cleveland currently has wins in New Orleans and against New England. Things really could be a lot worse. More importantly, the entire team is beginning to embrace Mangini's leadership. Since October 24, the Browns have been one of the hardest teams to play in the NFL. Just ask New Orleans, New England and the Jets. As I stated back in August, Mangini pulled a Tom Coughlin during the off-season, and his players have responded. I could think of nothing worse for this current roster than having to start all over…again…with a different head coach. The Browns are even stable in the front office. General manager Tom Heckert and team president Mike Holmgren selected stand-outs Joe Haden(notes), T.J. Ward(notes) and the aforementioned McCoy in the 2010 NFL Draft. They then pulled off the best trade of the off-season when they acquired stud running back Peyton Hillis(notes) and conditional draft picks for a third string quarterback. With all of this said, the 2010 Cleveland Browns aren't finishing 8-8. This is a very banged up team that still doesn't have a single dependable wide receiver. Winners in the NFL aren't built in a day, though. Look at how dreadful things got for teams such as the Giants and the Colts before they became contenders. Tampa Bay is even on the cusp of being a perennial threat. The Browns aren't "there" yet. If you've watched this team in 2010, you can see they're close. Really close. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-7223822but nah.... couldn't be a result of "the process," could it? 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Here's my take and I've not offered it up much lately.
Not so much to defend him as he doesn't need me doing that, but since others seem to like to drop his name I'll do so as well: Django is not wrong.
Many of his points are spot on. A well thought out and an accurate look at the team in my opinion. I know it's like raining on one's parade to listen to it, but if listened to, and thought over, it's not so negative as it's often been taken nor is it so wrong as some think.
What it is though, is it's to be expected. Not expected of Django who knows him some football even if some wet parade goers don't want to accept it. Rather, it is to be expected of the Browns at this point in the building, dare I say, process.
The Browns play tough and competitive. They play physical. Just ask New England and the Jets, (yes, a loss). We haven't seen that here for some time. It's exciting to watch from our perspective. Our team is kicking some ass even if we don't win.
We love to watch Hillis give himself up and dishing out the hits even though he is the one supposed to be taking them. We love watching Colt throw accurately. Hell, we haven't seen that since Kosar. Well placed pass after well placed pass, hitting the open receiver even if he's not all that open. And it's easy to catch a ball that's so accurately thrown.
The defense has been playing great. It took some trickery but Brees had a hell of a time reading it. And we've been better against the run by a long shot. We've even gotten some QB pressure lately without throwing everyone and the kitchen sink at 'em.
So is the team improved? I'd say so. By a mile.
But as fun and exciting as it is to watch, and even though we've beaten a couple of great teams in our recent stand, there's more to it than meets the excited eye.
We beat NO by trickery in nearly every phase of the game. Trickery on defense which was no easy task to pull off. That whole "UFO-type" of defense could well have backfired if not pulled off so well. Pulled off well, but still trickery. Add in the ultra rare occurrence of two pick-sixes from one player, one of them being pure luck, and on that day you're a tough team to beat. You can't make a living on playing trick defense and relying on luck.
Trickery on special teams. Great plays called at the precise right times. They worked as well as the defense's trickery. As with the defense it could very well have backfired on them. But it didn't. The players executed well, but it was still trickery. You can't make a living playing trick special teams.
Colt threw for 74 passing yards and no TD's. As with the trickery, you can't make a living on that either.
Great win, but it was done with smoke and mirrors and a heavy dose of luck. That game was a rare one. Very rare indeed. Genius from one perspective as you wonder what chance the Browns would have had without the trick aspect. Risky from another perspective in which things could have gone terribly wrong. Great coaching that game. Great execution by the players. Heaps of luck from the football Gods.
In the Pats game I have to say I can't ever remember seeing Tom Brady make so many errant throws in one game. Even with plenty of time in the pocket his throws were off the mark to the tune of 52.something %. That ain't Tom Brady. And was anyone counting the drops? I quit counting at a zillion. Anyone see what he did to the Steelers the next week? Over 69% completion and 3 TD's and ran for one. More like it.
I'm leaning toward us catching the Pats at precisely the right moment when that team came out flat and playing nothing like their highest-scoring-offense usual selves. And although our defense did very well they simply cannot be given all the credit for Brady's bad day. Too often he had all day to throw and still made bad throws. He was off.
So we won that game too. Anyone care to wager a ton of money on the Browns on the outcome of a rematch? That win didn't convince me of much more than that we play tough, competitive, physical football. But I knew that going in. It also showed me that our coaching staff, including coordinators, can create a damn good game plan two weeks in a row. We did score 34 points thank you.
The Jets game? As Django says, their kicker kept us in that game. Like to hear that or not, it's true. We did very little in the second half, (sound familiar?), until Colt drives us for the tying TD. Granted, he also put together a drive that may have put the game on Phil Dawson's foot, which I'm all in favor of, had it not been for Stuckey's fumble. But the prosecution still rests that we'd have never gotten that far without their kicker screwing the pooch. Twice. That game should have been over 23 to 20 exactly 44 seconds after Colt brought our score to 20.
So yeah, we played tough for a few games there. Tough, competitive, physical football. Just as we know them to do. But those two wins, suspect to a degree in my opinion, (one full of trickery and the other in catching Brady on a really bad off-day), and then a close game vs. the Jets, (compliments of their kicker), are not enough to have me raising the flag in a victory celebration.
But haven't they been looking good? Hell yeah they've been looking good! But for those who believe in Mangini's "process" he'll tell you that first you have to learn to become disciplined, second you have to learn to play competitive, third you have to learn to win. And it's that last one toward which the team is working on now. While they're working on it there will be close losses.
Close losses are common. Check out the average margin of victory. It ain't much. It's like B-i-n-g-o. When someone yells bingo! there's a half-a-room full of people who only needed one number to win. That's what keeps them coming back. They were sooo close. Well, as Django says, so it is with a lot of other teams.
And while they're still working on learning to win the negatives will show themselves even if no one wants to see them or is willing to overlook them.
But that's ok. That is where this team is right now.
On the other hand, by now it should have been past a lot of that negative crap and better damn well be sooner rather than later. Coaches can't be making puzzling, head-scratching decisions in the middle of a game. That should have been gone long ago. Unfortunately, as the team needs to learn to win so do the coaches.
This team has enough talent to win. Maybe not playoff bound coming from this division but slap the crap out of below average teams. They've shown it in their ability to compete with anyone physically, in their play execution and never-give-up attitude. Now is the time to put up.
There are some different teams coming up on the schedule that don't include 4-in-a-row Superbowl contenders. Now is the time to kick some ass. I'm not going to argue that they can or that they can't. I'm just going to watch and see. But I will say that for now, for what I've seen so far this year I'm not putting any large sum of money on them. I'm not that convinced by a couple of wins regardless who they're against.
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So coming into this season with ALL new QB's, you feel it's realistic to be winning right out of the gate? Surely even you don't really believe that. And let's face it, after the way JD played last year at Carolina, if you didn't have serious question marks about him? Well, that's on you, not me. And I also said that Mangini was in WAY over his head trying to do it all last year. He's not ready for that. I believe we are a better team and could beat both T. Bay and KC.....now. But coming into the season with three new QB's, having to start a rookie that had virtualy no reps with the first team ( third stringers usually don't )..................seriously, you guys crack me up. And no, I don't agree with a four or five year plan. Mangini tried to do WAY more than he was capable of last year in a futile attempt to run the whole show. This is Mangini's first year of being able to focus upon being our HC.This is MH's first year of being our team president.This is Heckert's first year as our GM. And we have improved and look better than last year. Naturaly it took having the same QB week in and week out to form some kind of chemistry. So you and Dj can harp all you want. But I give this combined group three years to get us into the playoffs. Not just have a winning season, but get us into the playoffs. So that means we have to outperform and outplay both Pitt. and Baltimore two seasons from now. There are no microwave teams in the NFL. Not one's that last. Nobody seems to touch on the coaches and their respective teams I listed. Why? Because history doesn't lie and it's impossible to dispute the facts.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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No Pit's assertion is that..I said befre we played both teams we should beat them..I don't consider them better..some in here do but I don't..First ,Tampe is 6-3 and I wouldn't say squeaked out a win,it was handed to them..but they've beaten the opponents they faced..the Browns haven't. I'll continue to say this,the Browns blew at least 3-4 games..and the Jet game is the lastest glaring mark on the list..so tell me, if we're that competitive against playoff teams, we should be winning against lower comp,according to U..right?..thats what I expect.
My assertion is we could beat them now. Delhomme started the season. Yet with only 60 pass attempts, he was out. Insert Wallace and after only 100 attempts, he was out.
How many teams in the NFL could be competative playing their second string QB? How about their third string QB?
Yet somehow we're supposed to be beating teams in such a situation? Are you serious?
Now? We have at least some cohesiveness. We're playing hard and competative against good teams. But I'd bet dollars to donuts, had we had N.Orleans, N. England, the Jets and Squeelers as our first four games? We'd have been blown out of every one.
I can't believe with all honesty that you even believe the words your typing. We went through two QB's and a lot of confusion in doing so over those first four games. Jake only threw for 55%.
Yes we've come a long way through the course of the season so far in progress. The team we are watching now actually has a little chemistry and a lot of will. Going through two QB's a new RB, a new secondary for the most part and very young, I think they are growing along wonderfully.
At this juncture all they really have left to do is figure out how to close. How to pull out the close ones. And we're not far off.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think where a lot of the problem Ddub is he heaps on his hate for Gini. He is quick to point out the negative even to the point of scewing stats. Yeah, we still have our share of issues as any team would with their third string QB and luck has been on our side. But like you said, this team has improved by a MILE! And as you aptly mentioned, like it or not it IS a process. Am I happy with where we are? No! But I'm thrilled by the direction I see us heading in. So IMO, it's more the negative Nancy, not willing to give hardly ANY credit of a positive note. I'm sure if his posts were a little more even handed, more of us would be willing to listen to what he has to say. My beef is how he piles on Gini and always quick to point the finger, but you basicly have to pry anything positive out of him. That, and pretending the NFL is like microwave popcorn. From the way he posts, it sounds like he thinks a team built for the long haul can be created in a hot second. You and I both know that's not reality. Many of his points I don't dispute with him, for as you say, he does know some football and I feel a lot of his points hold merrit. When you watch your team improve by a mile as you say, it's very difficult to watch one of your own fans consistantly harp on the negative and rarely ever has anything positive to say. I mainly attack his points I really disagree with and the consistant negativity no matter what we do. So I'm more than happy to do the opposite to help even the playing field. Quote:
But haven't they been looking good? Hell yeah they've been looking good! But for those who believe in Mangini's "process" he'll tell you that first you have to learn to become disciplined, second you have to learn to play competitive, third you have to learn to win. And it's that last one toward which the team is working on now. While they're working on it there will be close losses.
Close losses are common. Check out the average margin of victory. It ain't much. It's like B-i-n-g-o. When someone yells bingo! there's a half-a-room full of people who only needed one number to win. That's what keeps them coming back. They were sooo close. Well, as Django says, so it is with a lot of other teams.
And while they're still working on learning to win the negatives will show themselves even if no one wants to see them or is willing to overlook them.
But that's ok. That is where this team is right now.
On the other hand, by now it should have been past a lot of that negative crap and better damn well be sooner rather than later. Coaches can't be making puzzling, head-scratching decisions in the middle of a game. That should have been gone long ago. Unfortunately, as the team needs to learn to win so do the coaches.
This team has enough talent to win. Maybe not playoff bound coming from this division but slap the crap out of below average teams. They've shown it in their ability to compete with anyone physically, in their play execution and never-give-up attitude. Now is the time to put up.
There are some different teams coming up on the schedule that don't include 4-in-a-row Superbowl contenders. Now is the time to kick some ass. I'm not going to argue that they can or that they can't. I'm just going to watch and see. But I will say that for now, for what I've seen so far this year I'm not putting any large sum of money on them. I'm not that convinced by a couple of wins regardless who they're against.
I'm not putting any money up either. lol
But I think we'll do much better against average teams now. Because this team knows they can compete against anybody now. Trickery or not.
But you are quite correct. Now the only main obsticle left is learning how to win the close one. That's the only step left in the process.
And thanks for saying the bulk of what I've been trying to say far more eliquently than I could. Because we are close. Once we learn to win the close one's, we'll be well on our way.
BTW- I'd bet you dollars to donuts is an old term used. I'm not going to really do that. However, if the price of donuts keep going up, soon it would be a break even proposition!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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ddub...thats a great post...and its similar to how ive felt...with exception that ive a more positive outlook. I dont completely think were there either...but i look at it and think were well on our way.
thats one of the things that i think django and some of the others are missing. hopeful optimism. As a fan i cant help it. i look to the positive and i see positives right now that seem to look as though they can last. and ddub its that physical strength of with which we play.
You look at the AFC N and the teams that have won the SB lately, and only the Colts havent been able to run the ball with consistency enough to win games.. The Giants, Steelers, Saints (yes they are great at passing, but with bush and thomas they ran the ball very very well), and all the good teams that get into the playoffs and win games have a stout rushing attack and are better defending the run.
Were getting there...a power running scheme hurts us right now as the Jets showed us...but at the same time, we didnt give up a run over 10 yards...can you remember a time weve done that?
Great teams can run and can defend the run. We are on our way to doing both, and by adding two young solid DEs well be even better at it. That excites me.
On offense...we need some better WRs obviously, and we need our OC to accomodate for the talent that will be in our WR corps. I know our WRs havent inspired much confidence, but we do need to trust them more than we have. MoMass and Robo (or whoever we start opposite him) need to be given the chance to succeed...itll only open up other things for the rest of the pass catchers...
ddub and django, i agree we arent there, and i agree we make mistakes...but theres positives to build on. And idk about you guys...but i look at the next 5...jax, carolina, miami, buffalo, and cincy...i see 5 games that we should win. i see that and think that we should be 5-0 in that stretch. and i think any less than 4-1 will be a disappointment
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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