DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How I'll become a complete Believer..

Thaks ddub but hey, you're even more pessimistic than me on the NE win...I think that one was legit, even though we caught them sleeping a bit. It was by far Mangini's most convincing win...we dominated them on both sides of the LOS. We had some timely luck on momentum breaks, like the INT at the GL before the Half...if NE scores there it's 14-10 and Pats get the ball 2nd H ony 4p down....but we deserved to win this game 100%, no excuses

I admit I have a problem cheering for Mangini....I have no problem to be wrong about him being a bad HC, even though I think that's what he is and will be remembered as...but I just have a hard time rooting for the character Mangini, he's a double-faced snake imho ready to throw "friends" under the bus at any time in order to advance himself (double-faced again: preaching loyalty and team and then go all EGO for HIS career)....Kokinis is the scapegoat for the dismal offseason, gets fired...then reports pop up that Koks didin't even got the info BE was traded...then the Agent's report about the "mess" in CLE's FO and how many times Koks had to apologize to him...that agent said he had a long trustworthy relationship with Koks and Mangini was the King there..he messed up badly on some FA-CB visit, jerking the agent around for days...I think it was J.Greer, who ended up being a pretty good aquisition for NO

edit: found the link to the article: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/A-lesson-learned-in-Cleveland.html

"The Browns were obviously never on the same page with this particular free agent and had yet to formulate a way to work together and make decisions. Another agent I spoke to had a similar experience. The signs were there from the beginning that Kokinis had little power and that the team was somewhat rudderless."


so PIT, how can you say with a straight face that Mangini tried to do too much, making him sound like a poor guy who had no other choice....he wanted to do everything by choice, he hired a strawman GM he ignored over and over again to the point that he wanted to get out asap...and then he scapegoats that same "friend" just so he could survive a little longer.

I forget about Mangini on gameday....I know many won't believe me, but I'm rooting for my Browns every game like a 10yo....I admit I lost a little enthusiasm, maybe a bit because of Mangini but mostly because I'm sick of that feeling to watch the same movie every sunday....I'm not there yet to get excited again...I just don't see it yet.

As Diam said on the other board...the trade off for Mangini's character guys is talent...just imagine how much better this team would be if we had a HC that could actualy "manage" different characters and we had BE and KW still here, heck even Harrison (even though I never heard about any character issues with him)....other teams win with those guys. Does Ryan have a problem with BE? I've heard many "thank you's" from TB fans for Winslow this year, they say he's a 100% pro on gameday...and he was here too...you can't win on character alone in this league...you need talent too and many 25yo guys who know they're clearly better than most of the rest, come with some EGO....

That's why I keep saying Mangini is the biggest EGO in the locker room, he just can "manage" them, he needs the feeling to have control of his group, bordering the pathological....he's like the last commandment in Animal Farm "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." .... he's totally a master-servant mentality guy and if given too much power he goes crazy with it, he lets undisciplinary work ethic slide when he has no power (Rogers) but then goes crazy on others with little leverage (Harrison), that's what I mean with double-faced too....

I know he has less power now, but he's a power struggle waiting to happen once things go wrong a bit as I've often pointed out in his pressers that he likes to speak in "I" mode after wins and is "we" mode after losses....his body language on the sidelines on losing sundays speaks volumes too....count on it, he has a long documented history of it and it's no coincidence he has no "friends" left in the league.....don't you think it's sad when he talks about how much he learned from Bill and Bill and then think "wait, those guys don't even want to talk to him anymore"...doesn't he remind you of that nerdy classmate from school who talks about the school's sports players as if he's friends with them and then he never gets invited to a party....that loser ballboy, you know...that's our HC...and I think we're gong nowhere with him

Quote:

---

I admit I have a problem cheering for Mangini....

---

I hadn't noticed

Quote:

---

but I just have a hard time rooting for the character Mangini, he's a double-faced snake imho ready to throw "friends" under the bus at any time in order to advance himself (double-faced again: preaching loyalty and team and then go all EGO for HIS career)

---

Ha,, then you drone on about Kokanis and everything else and you have NO knowledge of the inner workings of what REALLY went on.. (unless you work in the building in berea that is) You only have what you imagine went on..

Did you know there was a rumor of Kokinis sleeping in the middle of the afternoon at his desk? Rumor,, that's all it is as far as I know.. so I won't knock Kokanis over it.. But the point is, it's easy to take rumor and cal it fact... doesn't make it so however.

All this talk about the EGO driven Mangini isn't really proven fact.. although, tell me which HC in the NFL, past or present, doesn't have an ego?

So basically you are being critical of a man based entirely on your belief of the rumor or media buildup rather than the actual facts.. Facts I might add that you and I will never really have access to.

Name something that is PROVEN FACT.. then I'll listen to you.. trying to push fiction as fact won't work.

PS: If you say it's fact, you need to verify it, otherwise, it's fiction.

That's fair Pit, I can agree to disagree on that post for the most part, even agree on some points

Let's hope they beat JAX tomorrow, those upcoming games should be fun to watch the team grow and hopefully win at least 3 of the next 5...we should beat JAX but nothing is guaranteed...and yes I put little money on CLE +1 for tomorrow.... I like the odds because we should dominate the LOS against them, they're weak against the run...and the line is kinda telling the story, Vegas thinks we're better too

More than anything I am curious to see our D without Fujita with a week of preparation...Fujita isn't getting younger and thus no real part of the future...so let's see what we look like without him

Yes, Scott was very important.

what is forgotten in the KW2 and BE trades is that they were going to be UFAs, demand huge pay days and probably not in cleveland. Getting anything of value for them is a feather in Mangini's cap.

Well I look for us to have a hiccup game here and there still. But I really think they're hungry for a win and determined. So I too look for a win tomorrow.

jc...

I checked out average margin of victory, week in and week out. So far the average margins have been 8, 12, 12, 10.5, 12, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 11 points.

django, you bring up some great points and you know your football. When debates get heated on here, you can be relied on to back up your statements with facts. I enjoy reading your arguements, because so may of the folks who are singing high praise now will be screaming for heads if we lose to JAX.

However, let me address one of the points you routinely make.

Quote:

---

I just have a hard time rooting for the character Mangini, he's a double-faced snake imho ready to throw "friends" under the bus at any time in order to advance himself (double-faced again: preaching loyalty and team and then go all EGO for HIS career).

---

As fans who have zero interaction with the HC, the FO, or even any of the players... it is very difficult for us (you or myself) to get a 'feel' for the character of a head coach... heck, its hard to get a feel for the character of people in my office and I have a boatload of interaction with them. Trying to judge people's character is a lot of 'reading tea leaves'... it is the cobbling together of behavior patterns to just get a gut feeling on somebody.

I am not sure why noone has ever brought this up, but Mangini's closest assistant is a young guy named Luke Steckel. (If you want to learn more about his role, Luke basically describes it in the ESPN the magazine preseason article from this summer). Luke's father is Les Steckel, longtime NFL assistant coach and former Tennessee Titan's coordinator. From a character standpoint Les is thought of by many as akin to Tony Dungy. Les and his wife still call Nashville home, and he is now the national president of the FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes).

Les has done a world of good as a mentor of young athletes both in the NFL and in the amateur ranks. Les is immensely respected here in Nashville and being that I am a young professional, actively involved in the local community I have had the opportunity to interact with Luke Steckel and each of his siblings. It is a fine upstanding family.

Now I have to be delicate here, because this is after all the internet, and I have shared with Luke that I am on these boards. Essentiallly, Luke is uncompromising in his praise for Mangini.

As fans we can only guess at the character of those we cheer for and the list is long of "character guy" stars who we thought we knew but turned out to be flawed characters (Tiger, Favre, #6, Kirby Puckett). There is also a list of guys who are questionable characters I have cheered wholeheartedly for (Albert Belle most notably).

Regarding Mangini, he made some mistakes handling personnel and who knows how well he ultimately performs as a head coach, but there are high character people I know and trust who believe in Mangini. That is good enough for me, and I hope that can help you django, as you continue to evaluate our HC.


JMH $0.02

And to add, I can't speak about Braylon, but I know KW2 is far less than the guy we drafted. I remember his knee being drained on several occasions. I'm not saying he doesn't have a boat load of talent, but the kid botched that knee up pretty bad.

So if I were considering giving a long term contract with big $$$, that knee would cause me to be very weary about it. The hard thing for some to grasp is that there is a salary cap in the NFL and for those who recruit, draft players and sign the contracts, this is a business first.

We are fans. To us it is a game first. To those "in the business", it's a business first. I'm not so sure that I would want to pay a kid with a lesser skill set than he had when we drafted him, as much or more money than we did when we drafted him if I were on the business end of things.

jmho

Damanshot, you are really with it on this board!! It's like you are on a crusade for the right against the evil rantings of Mr. D. Jones. Keep it up!!

Nobody likes to go into an argument with someone like Mr. D. Jones, because he will simply choose to ignore facts that contradict his rantings. After ignoring the facts, he will manufacture some "facts" of his own (remember his mathematics). Of course, there is no way to respond to his imaginary "facts" because he will ignore the factual presentations of others.

At first you feel sorry for people like that and try to help them by educating them. But they refuse your efforts. It's really too bad when people like that refuse to be educated and adamantly choose to happily continue spouting their folly.

Who's D. Jones?

maybe he means Dhani Jones... star of the "Does It Smell Anymore?" commercials....


just messin' withya a little, New...