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I'm fully aware of our current record. But, it goes beyond just wins and losses. Don't you see that too? We could have a much better record had we just closed out some of the games. The mere fact that we have been in a position to win almost all our games has to say something to you other W/L's. We've played a pretty tough schedule so far. We have some very winnable games coming up. Which we should be able to win at least 3 out of the next 4.
The same way many use the fact we are losing close games as a reason to keep Mangini it may be the same reason to get rid of him. While we were in those games many of them not only could have been won but rather SHOULD have been won.
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I'm fully aware of our current record. But, it goes beyond just wins and losses. Don't you see that too? We could have a much better record had we just closed out some of the games. The mere fact that we have been in a position to win almost all our games has to say something to you other W/L's. We've played a pretty tough schedule so far. We have some very winnable games coming up. Which we should be able to win at least 3 out of the next 4.
The same way many use the fact we are losing close games as a reason to keep Mangini it may be the same reason to get rid of him. While we were in those games many of them not only could have been won but rather SHOULD have been won.
You could say that too. Daboll is the biggest problem on offense. He's had his moments good and bad. But, he clearly doesn't know how to get the ball to the few playmakers we do have consistantly. If you get rid of Mangini, then more than likely Ryan's gone too. Now you just killed any progress this team has made from last year. I mean. If Holmgren fires Mangini. It better be because he wants to coach again. Because I don't see ANY coach out there, that would be available, that I would want to take over the Browns next year. All this talk about Ryan taking over. Hogwash. Does anyone really want another HC with no HC-ing experience? That is just crazy talk.
If you bring in Fisher. Then the Browns will more than likely change to a 4-3 defense. Say goodbye Ryan, if he wasn't gone before this.
Then you have to get the right personnel for the 4-3. Now you just set yourself back 2 years. No thanks. This franchise gave Butch freakin Davis 5 years. Can't we fans give Mangini more than 2? After all. Mangini has proven he's a much better coach than Davis ever was. More times than not. The grass isn't always greenest.
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There is a good chance we lose Ryan to a HC gig anyway. With the success of his brother and the improvement of our defense there has been talk of him as a candidate. So I don't see losing Ryan as any good reason to keep Mangini.
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Well that's kind of lame to think that. I mean. There have been many teams that lost their coordinators to HC jobs. But they didn't go ahead and fire their HC because they lost a DC or OC. That's just ridiculous. You sound like just a Mangini hater. So if you hate Mangini so bad. Who are you going to replace him with? Fisher? He ain't coming here. Who else? Are you prepared to start over again? Then when you start hating on that coach after a year or two, you'll be looking for someone else. Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it. We've been through so many different coach's since '99, and that's worked out so well, that I'm ready to jump in and do it again. 
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Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
This is true.
But it also applies to bad coaches. Saying you don't want to keep replacing coaches implies that we're firing good coaches. So far that hasn't really been the case.
Firing a coach is only counter-productive if he's a good coach. Our past HC's haven't exactly set the world on fire (as Head Coaches) after they're gone.
Look, I've said in the past that I think EM will be here next year and that his record next year should decide his fate. But I don't run the team and his performance has not been so good as to preclude his being shown the door.
At this point in their respective careers I think it could be safely said that Jeff Fisher is decidedly the better coach. Yet this thread was started with the premise that he'll be fired at Tenn.
I'd say that means that no coach is ever safe and certainly not a losing coach. No matter the circumstances.
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First of all a Mangini hater would be telling you how he had to go and showing you a number of examples of why he sucks. I'm not doing that. I'm not even saying he should be fired. I just saying there is a very good chance and that chance grows every time they lose. As for my comment about Ryan that was in response to you saying this. Quote:
If you get rid of Mangini, then more than likely Ryan's gone too. Now you just killed any progress this team has made from last year
I just don't see liking the DC as a reason to keep the HC. If the DC is so great and you don't like the HC the DC can still be retained. For all we know Ryan will have better options at the end of the season then it wouldn't matter what you did with Mangini.
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First of all a Mangini hater would be telling you how he had to go and showing you a number of examples of why he sucks. I'm not doing that. I'm not even saying he should be fired. I just saying there is a very good chance and that chance grows every time they lose.
As for my comment about Ryan that was in response to you saying this.
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If you get rid of Mangini, then more than likely Ryan's gone too. Now you just killed any progress this team has made from last year
I just don't see liking the DC as a reason to keep the HC. If the DC is so great and you don't like the HC the DC can still be retained. For all we know Ryan will have better options at the end of the season then it wouldn't matter what you did with Mangini.
Doubtful. If you get rid of the HC, then the new HC is gonna want his own staff. A new HC is not gonna want to keep leftovers from the previous regime. That doesn't happen too often, if at all.
If Ryan gets a HC job next year, then so be it. It doesn't mean you have to get rid of the HC too. You get another DC and move on.
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Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
This is true.
But it also applies to bad coaches. Saying you don't want to keep replacing coaches implies that we're firing good coaches. So far that hasn't really been the case.
Firing a coach is only counter-productive if he's a good coach. Our past HC's haven't exactly set the world on fire (as Head Coaches) after they're gone.
Look, I've said in the past that I think EM will be here next year and that his record next year should decide his fate. But I don't run the team and his performance has not been so good as to preclude his being shown the door.
At this point in their respective careers I think it could be safely said that Jeff Fisher is decidedly the better coach. Yet this thread was started with the premise that he'll be fired at Tenn.
I'd say that means that no coach is ever safe and certainly not a losing coach. No matter the circumstances.
I know that some of our former HC's haven't set the world on fire after they were let go. That doesn't necessarily mean they were bad HC's either. They were in a bad situation, with bad players, and no chance to win games. Yet they were expected to win. We never really gave any of the coach's a serious chance except for Davis. So how can you really tell if they were good coach's.
The Browns have stunk since the return. Part of that is the constant change in the FO on down. Part is not hiring the right people to run the show. We finally have good people in the building running things. The team is moving in the right direction, even if the record doesn't show it right now. The players are playing their asses off for Mangini, and people still want him gone. I just don't get that. There is no reason for it.
If we keep improving the team the wins will come. But I can't sit here and advocate blowing up this coaching staff just because they are not winning right now.
1st, we wanted to just see improvement. We have seen that so far this year. Now that's not even enough.
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So how can you really tell if they were good coaches?
They'd be a head coach somewhere else in the NFL. So far no go on that.
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The players are playing their asses off for Mangini, and people still want him gone. I just don't get that. There is no reason for it.
Well, they are playing hard. Whether it's for Mangini or themselves or their teammates neither you or I know. I also don't see that many people that are calling for EM's head. I see some that are not yet sure he's the HOF candidate that you make him out to be.
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But I can't sit here and advocate blowing up this coaching staff just because they are not winning right now.
Neither can I. But if we're 3-13 or 4-12 at the end of the season I can see Holmgren and Heckert pulling the pin and tossing a hand grenade into the coaches room.
Last edited by crazyotto55; 11/25/10 06:57 PM.
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Do NOT promote Daboll; if he is kept, we have issues. Ryan won't share IMO. HC or go. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Do NOT promote Daboll; if he is kept, we have issues. Ryan won't share IMO. HC or go.
Umm .... what? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So how can you really tell if they were good coaches?
They'd be a head coach somewhere else in the NFL. So far no go on that.
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The players are playing their asses off for Mangini, and people still want him gone. I just don't get that. There is no reason for it.
Well, they are playing hard. Whether it's for Mangini or themselves or their teammates neither you or I know. I also don't see that many people that are calling for EM's head. I see some that are not yet sure he's the HOF candidate that you make him out to be.
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But I can't sit here and advocate blowing up this coaching staff just because they are not winning right now.
Neither can I. But if we're 3-13 or 4-12 at the end of the season I can see Holmgren and Heckert pulling the pin and tossing a hand grenade into the coaches room.
Easy there. I'm not making him out to be a HOF coach. I don't know where you get that. I've seen plenty of fans that want him gone, or would want to get rid of him if a coach that they like becomes available. All I'm saying is that there is no reason what so ever to get rid of Mangini. He's a decent coach, and the team is playing pretty well considering the lack of any real talent.
If we are 3-13 or 4-12 this year something has to really go wrong for that to happen. Do you think the Browns will only win 1 or 2 more games the rest of the way? Really? Are they that bad? I must not be watching the same team you are watching.
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If we are 3-13 or 4-12 this year something has to really go wrong for that to happen. Do you think the Browns will only win 1 or 2 more games the rest of the way? Really? Are they that bad? I must not be watching the same team you are watching.
As I sit here typing this I do not think the Browns will only win one more game. But I also thought they'd beat the Jets, Chiefs and Bucs. So my prognostication skills are not what they could be, I guess.
Your whole premise is that because the team is playing better than last year Mangini will be given a pass no matter the record at the end of the season.
My point is that if he doesn't win 3 probably 4 more games he is in serious trouble. It's big boy football. In the end winning is all that matters.
You may not like it but I don't see how you could dispute the idea that EM will be on the hot seat if this year ends the opposite of last year.
I'll be at the Carolina game. I fully expect a win. Keep winning and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Lose and you put your fate in other people's hands.
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I'll be at the Carolina game. I fully expect a win.
In the big scheme of things-- this Carolina game is pretty much a must win for Mangini. He needs some wins to be retained. And this is about as easy as they come.
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I was reading something about the CBA negotiations and they made an interesting point.
Because of the likely delay in getting started up next year, and/or the possibility of no season at all, there will be a tremendous bias FOR keeping existing coaches or promoting from within, and AGAINST bringing in a new coach from outside the organization.
This would mean that keeping Ryan is more likely, and Mangini also.
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If we are 3-13 or 4-12 this year something has to really go wrong for that to happen. Do you think the Browns will only win 1 or 2 more games the rest of the way? Really? Are they that bad? I must not be watching the same team you are watching.
As I sit here typing this I do not think the Browns will only win one more game. But I also thought they'd beat the Jets, Chiefs and Bucs. So my prognostication skills are not what they could be, I guess.
Your whole premise is that because the team is playing better than last year Mangini will be given a pass no matter the record at the end of the season.
My point is that if he doesn't win 3 probably 4 more games he is in serious trouble. It's big boy football. In the end winning is all that matters.
You may not like it but I don't see how you could dispute the idea that EM will be on the hot seat if this year ends the opposite of last year.
I'll be at the Carolina game. I fully expect a win. Keep winning and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Lose and you put your fate in other people's hands.
I would hope that Holmgren is a man of his word, and will judge everything equally at seasons end like he has said he will. He's said many times that he's not going to look at the record as the end all be all. Now, I know a lot of fans and media like to read into things. But that tells me that the record is not going to be the final straw like some feel.
Bottom line is, you can't win in the NFL if you don't have talent. Which we don't. It doesn't matter who is coaching the team either. All you have to do is look back at some of the rosters we ran out there in recent years, and tell me any of our former coach's had a chance to win games. Not too mention how unfair it was to expect the coach's to win with garbage on the field. I can understand if this team was loaded with talent and we were not winning games. Then I'd be all for making a change(see Dallas & Minnesota). But when you are still in the process of building a team, I don't see how it can be productive to get rid of a coach at this point, or every couple years like we have done in the past.
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Bottom line is, you can't win in the NFL if you don't have talent. Which we don't. It doesn't matter who is coaching the team either.
I'm a little confused. You take me to task for even suggesting it is a possibility that we might have an 0-fer the rest of the way then you tell me that we have no talent (which I don't believe and neither do you if your posts are to be believed). Huh?
To top it off you suggest it doesn't matter who is coaching. No one believes that. No one.
You have your opinion and I have mine. But at the end of the day, or in this case the end of the season, if Mangini and company have a 3-13 or 4-12 record I know I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
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I agree Otto.
I like Mangini and think he has done a good job, but then I don't know football as does Holmgren and Heckert.
If we have a 4-12 record, they may be good with that when they do their staff evaluation.
I guess the bottom line in no matter the record, even if we win out, what is going to count most is how the staff is viewed compared to another staff or what Heck and Holmgren feel could have been done with the team as it is.
Did the staff hold the team back or did the staff get pretty much everything out of the players possible.
I am on record saying I hope Mangini stays, and still do. However, if he is let go, I am going to defer to the opinion of Heckgren and be good with it.....I figure they know more about it than I.
The only thing I will do is defend Mangini from the goofs who still say he sucks and pick at every thing.
In the end, I just want to win and really don't care with who or how it is done.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think he'll be here next year as well. But if we keep losing I don't know that I could be mad or upset if he's fired.
They're playing well, for the most part, and are fun to watch again. Finally.
I just don't yet have the warm and fuzzy feeling that so many on here have for Mangini. Maybe that will come.
But to wind back to the topic of the thread, if a guy like Fisher became available we'd be idiots not to at least consider talking to him. JMHO
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Maybe he wants to go back to Houston...
Looks liek they could use a new coach...
No offense Gary Kubiak...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Bottom line is, you can't win in the NFL if you don't have talent. Which we don't. It doesn't matter who is coaching the team either.
I'm a little confused. You take me to task for even suggesting it is a possibility that we might have an 0-fer the rest of the way then you tell me that we have no talent (which I don't believe and neither do you if your posts are to be believed). Huh?
To top it off you suggest it doesn't matter who is coaching. No one believes that. No one.
You have your opinion and I have mine. But at the end of the day, or in this case the end of the season, if Mangini and company have a 3-13 or 4-12 record I know I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
Maybe I didn't do a good job explaining myself.
We don't have a lot of talent. We have some good football players, but not many that would put fear in our opponents. We lack playmakers, period. But it doesn't mean we are not capable of winning a few games here and there. We've been in every game. We've had chances to win games. We lack the talent to close games out. But, like I said. Something would have to go seriously wrong for the Browns to not win another game. They have enough talent to beat any of, or all of, the next 4 teams. So that's why I don't think they will end the season without another win.
Just about everyone wanted to see some improvement this year, and we have. Yeah the record doesn't show it. But, I think we are pretty much right on track. Now everyone is only keying on the wins and losses. I seriously doubt MH is going to get rid of Mangini based on the wins and losses alone. But that's your opinion. If MH had any doubt about Mangini, he would've fired him after last year regardless of how he finished, and no one would've said a thing. I mean. Everyone pretty much expected him to. I'm just saying that it wouldn't be a good idea to get rid of Mangini and start over with a new coaching staff, when the team shows improvement, and potential to be a good football team. Firing Mangini just to get Fisher is not a good idea. Don't get me wrong. I like Fisher. But, if Fisher becomes available, we are not the only team that will be in the market for him, and he's not going to just come here because a few fans want him. I mean, he may not get fired anyway. So why are we even discussing it? Let the season play out. Then we can have that discussion.
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Well, we're discussing it because that's what this thread is supposedly about.
I don't think Fisher is going anywhere. I also doubt that Mangini is going anywhere.
But if anyone thinks EM is safe as HC no matter what his record, as long as the team "looks good", I think they're kidding themselves.
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Holmy said up-front that the w/l record would only be a part of his evaluation, and I take him at his word.
If things like competetiveness, team cohesion and consistency are AS imprtant than the record, Mangini will be around for another year. So will as much of the staff as Holmy can keep.
If w/l is as important to Holmy as it seems to be for some of our more "literal and concrete" fans.... Mangini had better coach his az off for the remaining games... and win at least Pitt or Balto.
Fans can be harsh.
I get the feeling (and I only have impressions based on Holmgren's public statements and demeanor) that he's a pretty thoughtful dude. Havibng said that, I fully expect him to look at ALL angles-even angles we fans can't conceive of- and make a temperate, well-determined decision at season's end.
When that time comes, I'll just have to trust his acumen and presidential smarts... for the time being. Let's face it- he's subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the fans just as any player of coach is... and I'll be watching pretty closely.
My guess: Mangini stays if the team continues to show up in every game, regardless of record. Holmy knows that we need an infusion of talent to get over the hump... and it would only be fair to give this coaching staff another year to see what they can do with Heckert's additions.
Hey- he gave him this year, based on less than we've seen in 2010. Why WOULDN'T he give him '11 to finish baking the cake?
Now- if the team tanks, and the staff loses them, I'd see no reason to keep them... but based upon what they've shown us this year, there's not much chance of that happening. The divas, whiners and malcontents who metasticize in a locker room were all scalpeled before this year, and hard-working football players are here, setting the core of the team.
If the team holds course (and we don't suffer more injuries to key positions), there will be at least 3-4 more wins this season... and Mangini will stay.
jmh guess
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My guess: Mangini stays if the team continues to show up in every game, regardless of record. Holmy knows that we need an infusion of talent to get over the hump... and it would only be fair to give this coaching staff another year to see what they can do with Heckert's additions.
Along with the W/L record as well as the team playing tough, physical, to-the-whistle, competitive football there are many other considerations.
Player evaluations, (who plays when - not who gets picked for the roster - and how those players get used in games), how he's handled the QB position, overall game planning along with in-game adjustments, clock management, play calling, (whether or not Mangini is satisfied with it), and a ton of head coaching organizational duties I can't begin to pretend to know will go into Holmgren's decision on Mangini.
I do know Holmgren doesn't care if the players like Mangini or not. He said as much when he first got here saying he wasn't planning on interviewing the players on their thoughts about the coach. That's in Mangini's favor in his my-way-or-the-highway actions. If a player doesn't like the coach he can go play for one he does like. You can't have the inmates running the asylum. I believe they share that philosophy.
I know Holmgren, by his own admission, is not particularly pleased with the offensive philosophy. Of course he qualifies that saying basically that his way is not the only way to skin a cat, but this type of offense is not what he is familiar with and I believe he'd be more comfortable overseeing the team if it's offensive philosophies were closer to his own. And by association so would Heckert be more comfortable scouting players that fit Holmgren's type of offense since that has been his experience as well.
I don't believe Holmgren will sit idly by and watch this team grind out long, time consuming drives that result in field goals. Holmgren is one who likes to play an aggressive offense game plan with the specific intent on scoring points rather than play it safe by sitting on a small lead expecting to hold on to a win in the end.
On the other hand Mangini solidly backs Daboll and the scheme at this time. Of course he can't say otherwise but I'm guessing he means it if only through his friendship, (or stubborness), and will be reluctant to make that change. But I believe in the near future Mangini will have to give way to the fact that this is a passing league, Holmgren is a passing oriented thinker and Heckert is more used to acquiring players to that type of system. Those three points outweigh Mangini's philosophy.
Since I keep saying "I think" and "I believe" I'll continue along that vein in saying I believe that both Holmgren and Heckert know that at this point in time we do not have the talent at the receiver position to be a passing team. Some of that is on them as they did nothing to upgrade our receiving corp which was a major surprise to most of us who have watched this team last season.
But I believe that in fairness to Mangini, who undoubtedly defended his drafting of MoMass and Robo and bringing in Stuckey, they stood pat on that position. Plus H & H didn't evaluate them throughout all last season and likely hoped against hope that in their second year, with improved QB play, that they too would improve thus saving the team from having to acquire more players at that position giving them the opportunity to focus on other needs.
Maybe they were all wrong about that but I doubt very much Holmgren holds any of that against Mangini and understands the difficulty in winning without receivers.
A firing of Mangini will likely result in a coaching staff housecleaning as well. I'm not sure how much that bothers Holmgren. I doubt he dreads losing Daboll by letting Mangini go. I also doubt he is concerned about losing Ryan either. It seems to me that in Holmgren's experience he's let the defense do it's own thing for the most part and he's used to watching a 4-3 defense and probably prefers it over a 3-4 if for no other reason than his familiarity with it, (and that of Heckert's as well).
To me, some questionable player evaluations, some very questionable game day decisions and in-game coaching by Mangini, (that may well be the culprit for one or more close losses), along with opposing offensive and defensive philosophies all wrapped up by the fact that Holmgren is getting up there in years and this is likely his last attempt to construct a Superbowl winner, it all points to Mangini being let go at the end of the season.
On the other hand, depending on what Holmgren sees as the underlying issues holding the team back Mangini could stay put.
Holmgren knows the talent level better than anyone, he knows what talent upgrades are needed, (although it makes a big difference in who you acquire depending on offensive and defensive philosophies - which could or may not change), he knows when Mangini has made in-game gaffs which put his team in a bad situation and he knows when he has put his team in the best situation to succeed and he knows how all that weighs out.
Regardless of the record at the end of the season this is not going to be an easy decision for Holmgren. He knows that if he brings in a proven coach that it will attract proven coordinators and assistants. He knows he can have the philosophies he shares and he knows he can still have a team that will be thinking in the same direction and on the same page all working towards the same goal.
But he also may think that given continuity to a staff who works well together could be giving them the chance to grow into a solid contender and finally reach the Superbowl with some well advised tweaks guided by his own experience.
It's not an easy decision. I'm not voting either way. I've seen a lot I like and I've seen a lot that I don't like. But I suppose you're going to have that in anything and this is something I really know little about.
Count me into the group that will defer this to Holmgren and hope he's still got "IT".
#gmstrong
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Do NOT promote Daboll; if he is kept, we have issues. Ryan won't share IMO. HC or go.
I never understand a damn thing you say. It's like trying to decipher the rosetta stone.
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Legend
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Bard's got style... I give him points for that.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Bard's got style... I give him points for that.
You have a good point, it's definately..... "unique" 
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Quote:
Bard's got style... I give him points for that.
You have a good point, it's definately..... "unique"
Some could argue that his entire language is unique ...... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Holmy said up-front that the w/l record would only be a part of his evaluation, and I take him at his word.
If things like competetiveness, team cohesion and consistency are AS imprtant than the record, Mangini will be around for another year. So will as much of the staff as Holmy can keep.
If w/l is as important to Holmy as it seems to be for some of our more "literal and concrete" fans.... Mangini had better coach his az off for the remaining games... and win at least Pitt or Balto.
Fans can be harsh.
I get the feeling (and I only have impressions based on Holmgren's public statements and demeanor) that he's a pretty thoughtful dude. Havibng said that, I fully expect him to look at ALL angles-even angles we fans can't conceive of- and make a temperate, well-determined decision at season's end.
When that time comes, I'll just have to trust his acumen and presidential smarts... for the time being. Let's face it- he's subject to scrutiny and evaluation by the fans just as any player of coach is... and I'll be watching pretty closely.
My guess: Mangini stays if the team continues to show up in every game, regardless of record. Holmy knows that we need an infusion of talent to get over the hump... and it would only be fair to give this coaching staff another year to see what they can do with Heckert's additions.
Hey- he gave him this year, based on less than we've seen in 2010. Why WOULDN'T he give him '11 to finish baking the cake?
Now- if the team tanks, and the staff loses them, I'd see no reason to keep them... but based upon what they've shown us this year, there's not much chance of that happening. The divas, whiners and malcontents who metasticize in a locker room were all scalpeled before this year, and hard-working football players are here, setting the core of the team.
If the team holds course (and we don't suffer more injuries to key positions), there will be at least 3-4 more wins this season... and Mangini will stay.
Very well said....
Last edited by DawgDay99; 11/28/10 04:06 AM.
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