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A good friend of mine always says that it is a rare head coach who can take a perennially bad team to mediocrity to perennial playoff contender. The shtick just runs out over time...see Marvin Lewis.
The only coach I can really think of succeeded in that challenge was Jimmy Johnson...and he was able to trade H Walker for about 11 draft picks to jump start his rebuild. (Maybe Cowher...maybe.)
I wouldn't give it to Cowher, but I would to Knoll.
Off the top of my head, 2 immediately came to mind:
Dungy - TB
Schottenheimer - KC & SD
#gmstrong
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I dont like Mangini and I thought he was a bad hire from day one.
What did you not like about him? I'm asking because I had no opinion about him at all when he was hired. Hell, I don't like or hate anyone who coaches for another team. I don't really care about them until they come here.
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If it was me, I would can him and the entire offensive staff. This offensive staff is bad from top to bottom. Hell half these guys we have already fired before.
Dude- EVERYONE we have has been fired before... same as every other team. The coaching carousel only has so many seats on the ride, and they all get recycled over and over. I mean.... the Pats got a Cleveland Browns reject to be their HC. Seems to have worked out OK for them. Maybe it could work for us too... if Randy/Holmy try a Robert Kraft or ARt/Dan Rooney... and actually- I dunno, something crazy, like: keep someone lomger than a week and a half.
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Rob gets a promotion and an entirely new offensive coaching staff.
Ah, yes... the old familiar "Square One"... the only place where some Browns fans feel comfortable. After all, it's the only place where the staff is absolutely perfect, with no losses on their resume...
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If can't keep Rob then find someone with that natural leadership ability. It is a rare quality.
Rare, but not esential... except for TV ratings. Marty had the "rare quality," yet he's still ring-less. And if it's as rare as you say it is, it won't be any easier for us to find 'that guy' than it is for any other team. Rare is rare, you know? So... do we find this magical guy immediately.... or do we continue to hit reset for another 10 years until he falls into our laps?
Right now, you have us dumping our entire O staff, losing Ryan, and starting from scratch- again. So we have Holmy & Heckert, Seely, and.... uh- noone else. Yeah- that instills me with a helluvalotta confidence for the next 2 years. How is this crazyazz chit any different from THE OTHER FOUR TIMES WE'VE DONE IT? What makes you think your brilliant approach will work the fifth time it's tried?
Why do you NOT see how insane this is? Oh... that's right- 'cause this isn't really Real Life... it's Madden. We can always just hit 'reset.'
"Groundhog Day," indeed.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Hi Clem  I am all for keeping Eric Mangini and staff for another year...i think they deserve at least 1 more year...in reality it is too soon to judge or give up on em as i said the only way i would is if holmgren himself wants to take over, otherwise there is no one else out there i would really consider an upgrade over Mangini at this point...we all know cowher isn't going to come here. so if holmgren don't want to to coach, it would be pointless to get rid of Mangini at this juncture. I will say this, Mangini has made enough mistakes, gaffes, and head scratcher (Well his staff including Daboll can be blamed for some of this as well) and those gaffes "are enough" to justify canning the guy. however, i came around on Eric Mangini later on, no one is perfect...will Eric Mangini learn from these mistakes moving forward? I think he will IF he is given more time, but we won't know unless he gets a chance. Many news outlets are already reporting that Mangini is done here after the season. In fact, a few are saying the players have been told that Mangini and staff won't be returning and they are playing for their jobs....is it true? I don't know...it could be, and maybe its not true at all...if holmgren decides to can him, I can understand why...if holmgren decides to keep him..i understand why and im on board with it. i will say this...IF Holmgren does can Mangini....he better have a very good replacement...and I don't mean Jon Gruden either...after looking into and researching Gruden...i don't want him here...chuckie is as over-rated as they come...I would rather keep Mangini then go on the QB carousel known as Gruden camp....  the ONLY way I will be cool with Holmgren firing Mangini is if Holmgren decides to take over himself....any otherwise...i will be upset if we get rid of Eric...unless we get cowher which is a pipe dream...we have a better chance of Holmgren coaching then getting Cowher...Cowher isn't coming here... Now folks are reporting that Jim Zorn will be on his way here afater the Super Bowl...now Holmgren bought Gill Haskill here with him (his longtime OC) and know he is looking at snagging Jim Zorn (Most likely as Assistant HC/Qb Coach for McCoy) IF Holmgren brings in Zorn....thats a good indicator to me that Holmgren is returning to the sidelines...he just wanted to wait until he could "reassemble" most of "his" staff...Haskill, and Zorn were his most important pieces...and he may try to look for 1 of his old DC in Mora Jr. or someone else (Mora Jr. was a darn good DC but a terrible HC) it will be interesting to see how this pans out...if we do keep Mangini...i Think Mangini will have to give away a lot of his say so on the offensive side of the ball and pretty much accept a Mike Holmgren picked OC and that OC will have full reign over the O....or Mangini refuses....it will be 1 of the other....no way mike has been happy with our current O (Even though i think Daboll takes more blame then he deserves, he don't exactly have much) Randy Lerner said when he hired Mike Holmgren that he gave him the power to be President, GM, Head Coach, or all 3...i firmly belive that Holmgren's plan all along was this: Since he couldn't get his staff together, surgery, and having to hire a FO he figured he would let Mangini have another year....if Mangini works out he looks like a Genius. If Mangini doesn't work out then he is in prime position to take over himself. I have no doubt whatsoever Holmgren still wants to coach, he loves it, you gotta do what you love. The window for Holmgren to coach is closing..in 5 years he won't be able to due to age...either he coaches here or he will not coach again in this league due to age....Lebeau is the exception....Parcells only sat in the office in miami because age and his health couldn't handle the rigors of coaching anymore...everyone runs out of time at some point...Holmgren still has time for 1 more shot at a ring as a HC...and that shot is here. I was skeptical when Holmgren came here if he would be able to resist the temptation of putting on the headset if Mangini didn't win somewhat this year....Holmgren keeps toying with the media with hints that he ants to coach. If Holmgren had "no intentions" of coaching here he would have just came flat out and told the media: "I will not coach in cleveland period" and ended the discussion but he didn't...he is leaving that door open for a reason.... Think of it from a "money standpoint" Holmgren taking over means Lerner does not have to chunk out another huge chunk of change on another coach....he already has Holmgren here...no need for another contract, just the staff who don't make as much as a HC does...it makes sense from a money standpoint. I am holding out a small bit of hope that Mangini gets 1 more shot next year, but right now things are not looking good....i hope im wrong and Mangini gets another year....
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Many news outlets are already reporting that Mangini is done here after the season. In fact, a few are saying the players have been told that Mangini and staff won't be returning and they are playing for their jobs....is it true?
This is being reported everywhere even by MaryKay now....and since I'm the #1 Mangini hater around I'll give you the ultimate conspiracy theory on this since it just crossed my mind AS A POSSIBILITY (hypothetical opinion alert !)...who knows what's really going on or being said.....but it would not surprise me 1 bit if this is EM's last desperate attempt to make his players play....if not for him, then for themselves....it already worked late last season for him...when he "used" guys he had and reinstated in his doghouse (Harrison anyone?)
so what IF he told his players in a last attempt to save his @$$ or as some kind of no-confidence vote...basically this could be Mangini's version of Singletary's pants down....it would be so fitting to his sado-masochistic character: "if you won't play for your master, play for yourselves slaves" 
You must admit...this IS possible....he comes up with all possible ideas, after all he's the master of "not to lose" 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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How is this crazyazz chit any different from THE OTHER FOUR TIMES WE'VE DONE IT? What makes you think your brilliant approach will work the fifth time it's tried?
Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert
Not saying that that makes it any less crazy...but it WOULD be different. Our FO has the experience to make such a move...experience that we have never had in the FO since our return.
Just throwing that out there.
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If holmgren steps in as a head coach good luck finding his future replacement. It will be like spoelstra and pat riley in miami.
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..who knows what's really going on or being said.....
My sentimesnts exactly on a host of issues being tossed about. I agree with this sentiment 100%. Which is why I stopped right there and didn't bother reading the rest.
Because of your own admission by this statement, you don't either. And being a self admitted Mangini hater, there is by that very admission some extent of bias involved.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The reason I didnt like Mangini before he even got here was for the simple fact he played an injured farve week after week when he was playing horrilbe. He road the broken legend clean out of the playoff race. Sounds awful familiar to Delhomme doesnt it?
Hell he was fired because of the horrible second half play of his team. Boy I seem to have heard those complaints somewhere else.
You are simply making the same tired argument that was used to defend Romeo and hell some even used that argument to defend Butch.
I just don't see someone that has learned from their mistakes. Maybe he just never had time after he was fired to truly reflect on the reasons he was replaced. He certainly has not shown to have learned very much from those experiences in New york.
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The reason I didnt like Mangini before he even got here was for the simple fact he played an injured farve week after week when he was playing horrilbe. He road the broken legend clean out of the playoff race. Sounds awful familiar to Delhomme doesnt it?
Just the very comparison to Favre and Delhomme is a classic boo boo. lol
It couldn't be that the people paying Favre three to four times what they pay Jake had any say in that, right?
I guess if you look in only one direction to point the finger, place blame or focus on, you can only come up with one possible asnwer. But it's nothing new around here.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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yea no comparison at all. A quarterback that can barely walk sent out to play and looks horrible but you stick with him and enjoy that big loss he hangs on you should never be compared to a quarterback with an injured shoulder throwing up picks because he had no follow through all he could do was just sling it.
Yea what was i thinking.
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If holmgren steps in as a head coach good luck finding his future replacement. It will be like spoelstra and pat riley in miami.
This.
Not to mention, how many times is a dual coach/GM or coach/president ever successful? Just too much responsibility for one person. Not enough time in the day no matter how good you are.
And on top of all this, Holmgren taking over and revamping our whole roster will take a good 3 years. He's only going to coach for 5. That means right about the time he gets us rebuilt and competitive it'll be time for him to retire and we get to start over....AGAIN.
This organization pushes reset more often than a 6 year old playing Madden on All-Madden. We're a laughing stock.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Many news outlets are already reporting that Mangini is done here after the season. In fact, a few are saying the players have been told that Mangini and staff won't be returning and they are playing for their jobs....is it true?
This is being reported everywhere even by MaryKay now....
I was so upset about hearing this (see my last post) that for kicks and giggles I decided to check on this myself. What do I find? That yet again you're nothing but full of b.s.
Straight from Mary Kay Cabot's twitter : "I've been told that an espncleveland report saying #browns' mangini has been told he's out and players told fighting 4 jobs is false."
What part of false don't you get? 
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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This.
Not to mention, how many times is a dual coach/GM or coach/president ever successful? Just too much responsibility for one person. Not enough time in the day no matter how good you are.
And on top of all this, Holmgren taking over and revamping our whole roster will take a good 3 years. He's only going to coach for 5. That means right about the time he gets us rebuilt and competitive it'll be time for him to retire and we get to start over....AGAIN.
This organization pushes reset more often than a 6 year old playing Madden on All-Madden. We're a laughing stock.
Holmgren will not be "president per se" if he takes over as Head Coach, he will most likely take an Andy Reid type of Scenario...something along the lines of VP of Football Operations/Head Coach...Heckert and Weidmeir are more then qualified to handle a lot of the other President duties on Holmgren's behalf...thats what those guys were hired for...to run the FO
Heckert and Weidmer run the day to day operations for the most part...do you think Holmgren right now micromanages each and every little minute detail? if he does then he is a horrible boss...you have to trust those you hire...sometimes they may call or step into his office real quick and shoot a quick question, other then that Holmgren delegates.
you folks are making "too much" out of this....ANY sound business structure works like this(with a few wrinkles depending on size, business niche, etc..but the basis is usually the same and maybe names are different..i tried to make it very simple):
1. CEO/President - hires head supervisors and manages ONLY the head supervisors in 99% of cases.
2. Head Supervisors report to Pres/CEO only, they also manage the lower level management so the Pres doesn't have to and they report lower level mangement to Pres, other wise Head supervisors manage the lower managers.
3. Lower Managers supervise the lower level employees of each department, and lower level mangers report to Head Supervisors.
only under "unique or emergency circumstances" does the lower level management/employees report to the report to the Pres....the Pres just asks the Head supervisors for evals on lower managers, and Head Supervisors ask lower managers for evals on lower level employees
If Holmgren is a good working boss, he trusts the people he hired and relies on them to run most of the ship and only manages a small group of top level mangement and lets top level mangement manage the other groups allowing Head supervisors to manage the lower ranks and such
so it would be "very easy" for Holmgren to maybe hire 1 more guy to help Heckert and Weidmer with the Day to Day operation of the non-football side of things for him while he takes a bigger part of the coaching process
it won't be as complicated as many think for holmgren to coach if need be...in fact I firmly believe Holmgren brought Weidmer and Heckert here for the sole reason that they will be this FO when he leaves here, and they give him the flexibility to take over as an Adny Reid type here whenever he wants....he won't have to do all that other stuff...he has people he hired to do that.
I doubt Lerner cares who calls him about ownership meetings be it Holmgren or Weidmeir as long as the football eam is winning with holmgren at the helm...really do you really think Lerner cares if its Holmgren or Heckert/Weidmar that calls him and gives him the weekley accounting numbers from the business department? As long as he is making money i doubt he cares...in fact I bet that happens more often then people think already.
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Look Ammo
I wouldn't be against bringing back Mangini and crew for another year..I have said that...i think its only fair that he gets another crack, however, life isn't always fair.
My biggest concern with Holmgren keeping Mangini was a "clash of interest"
Bill Bellichik/Eric Mangini philosophy is the anti-Walsh/Holmgren tree all the way...the two sides basically share ZERO in common with how things are done offensively and defensively...I knew this going in.
Mike Holmgren said in a press conference a few months ago that when asked about the offense he said "Its not the way I would do it" and the look on Holmgren's face, the grimace he gave tells you all you need to know...that Holmgren don't like this O philosphy
Also when Holmgren was asked about the defense, he said "It drives me crazy how they moves those guys around, but if it works "shrug" now Body language tells more then words and Holmgren don't like the D system either.
Holmgren and Heckert BOTH are WCO and 4-3 D guys...thats what Heckert helped build and draft for in Philly, thats what Holmgren ran, built and drafted for in Seattle and Green Bay. Mangini Philosophy and Holmgren's philosphy are complete polar opposites.
Eric Mangini may end up being the "victim of circumstance" Holmgren really didn't know enough about Eric to really make an informed decision last year, and Holmgren probably felt it was unfair to fire him when he didn't really know if Eric's way of doing things would work or not.
when push comes to shove, Mike Holmgren is going to go to what he knows works...whats worked for him in 2 cities, whats worked for his proteges Gruden and Andy Reid...its what he is comfortable with, its what Heckert is comfortable with.
I totally wouldn't be against giving Eric Mangini another year if thats what Holmgren decides, i'd be fine with it...but if Eric gets a year 3 anything less then 8-9 wins is not acceptable.
However, Holmgren may not be 100% comfortable with what Eric is doing. Holmgren may not be convinced his way is going to get the job done here.
Perhaps sitting in the booth screaming, hollaring, and feeling "powerless" to do anything on gameday is eating at Mike...perhaps Mike feels he could win more games with this group then Eric...we don't know...historically Mike Holmgren coached teams are very well coached and usually over-achieve very well like Bill Cowher coached teams....
Mike Holmgren has 5 years left to be a head coach, before age makes that just not possible...he has already stated him and his wife have had "discussions" about him returning to the sideline at some point...
I don't see Mike Holmgren as a guy that will be content sitting in an office. Bill Parcells was just too old to handle the rigors of coaching anymore, he is older then Mike Holmgren...Parcells sat in the office in Miami because he had no other choice, Holmgren does have a choice....if Holmgren wants 1 last trip to the sidelines, it will have to be here Cleveland...also don't forget egos...if Holmgren turns this team around and wins a SB...the guy will be a legend only equaled to Paul Brown himself...
Even though I don't agree with it, and I wouldn't mind having Eric for another year...Mangini may be the victim of circumstance...
Parcells sat in the office in Miami because he had no choice due to his age and his health couldn't take it anymore, as a man you have to do what you love until you can no longer do it anymore...Holmgren still has a 5 year window to coach....and he loves coaching....I said when we hired Mike that Mangini better win some games or else Mike will take his job...sometimes the best way to get a job done (rebuilding a football team) is to do it yourself (Holmgren puts on the headset)
I hope Mangini gets another year, but I will also understand if Mike Holmgren feels he can do more to help the Browns on the sidelines where he has more coaching talent then just about anybody in the league right now, and since Weidmer and Heckert are in place and settled in...its doable.
Holmgren takes VP of Football Operations job and coaches and works with Heckert.
Weidmer takes over the rest of the Presidential duties and sits in on meetings and stuff (Holmgren as president is allowed to delegate you know, its part of the job)
I can see where it can work, I can also see everyones point about keeping Eric..im fine with either...
Wow, your entire argument could be ended with one hire.
MH hires his own OC that can work with Mangini.
We all know Mangini is a Defensive Minded Coach, and works well with Rob Ryan obviously (from their time in NE also).
Daboll calls the plays on Offense correct? Daboll draws up the plays correcft?
So what does Mangini do on offense? I doubt very much.
MH could come in very easily and hire his own up and coming OC with West Coast background, and get the best of both words, the Walsh/Holmgren and Parcells/Belichick tree combination.
A Walsh/Holmgren Offense and Parcells/Belichick Defense.
But one hire would fix half of Holmgrens concerns, and it would be awesome if Holmgren would ever wish to step in as an OC, but I could see Haskell stepping in as the new OC, IMO.
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I agree with your original post Ammo. This is the best browns we have seen in a long time. I trust Mangini. He has produced real change for the browns
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I really think that Ammo and KOB really put forth a good argument on both sides of the fence and the following thread and discussion is insightful as well--testament as to why I continue to come to this board--as I learn more and more about the totality of the game.
I can't really add to the nuts and bolts discussion other than to say I think that the product on the field today is far better than it was yesterday. I really feel we are one offseason away from getting a couple of playmakers on defense and offense and this team would be contending for the playoffs.
Almost every scenario being discussed here seems to me to have enough legitimacy to it that I am torn as to what is in the teams' best interest. Although, I have to be honest, if Mangini is canned, and they name Gruden head coach, I will vomit in my mouth.
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yea no comparison at all. A quarterback that can barely walk sent out to play and looks horrible but you stick with him and enjoy that big loss he hangs on you should never be compared to a quarterback with an injured shoulder throwing up picks because he had no follow through all he could do was just sling it.
Yea what was i thinking.
And God knows money and the higher ups have no say in any of that. No, money and corperate structure have no place in a corperation at all.
Pssst, it's a business for those who work in it. Don't tell anybody though. It tends to cause less common sense and possibilties when nobody understands or considers that angle of things.
Just pick a target and blame everything on one person. It's the American way, right? And did you ever stop to consider that the PR with the Favre streak and how the higher ups may have pushed for that PR played a role in the playing of Favre?
That's my entire point. If you always look at things from one angle, you will only come to one conclusion. Yet there are so many questions that neither of us really know, I find it rather silly for someone to be so adiment in claiming to know the answers when they have no idea of what really goes on at all behind closed doors.
First you have to tell yourself that any NFL team is a billion dollar plus corperation. That money drives business and everything related to the NFL is money driven. At that juncture you can see more possibilities rather than be so single minded on such topics.
But suit yourself.
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If holmgren steps in as a head coach good luck finding his future replacement. It will be like spoelstra and pat riley in miami.
This.
I just realized I doubt a lot of people know what I'm talking about
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Haha, us NBA folks knew what you meant!
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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j/c Holmgren MUST GO! He's been here a freakin year and we're not in a SuperBowl! That Dude blows! It's his fault Mangini can get the job done. He imported a lame QB to be starter, stripped Gini of his drafting control and brought in a bunch of OLD talented guys that know WAY too much about football to run the show. I mean we haven't had a complete up heaval in what? TWO YEARS! Don't let this staff continue to stagnate! Get em ALL OUT NOW! As Browns fans we know the best hope we have is CHANGE. If I had my way we'd field a new staff and set of players every week until we get it right! Sooner or later we'd find a keeper! Our face will never figure out we cut our nose off to spite it, so bring on the freakin scissors already!
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Just win, baby.
It all boils down to that. Mangini wins Sunday and he's probably safe. Lose,especially if he insists on sticking with Jake, and he's most likely gone.
I personally don't have a problem if he stays or goes as long as we win.
I just don't think, long term, that Eric Mangini is going to be a winning HC.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Quote:
Many news outlets are already reporting that Mangini is done here after the season. In fact, a few are saying the players have been told that Mangini and staff won't be returning and they are playing for their jobs....is it true?
This is being reported everywhere even by MaryKay now....and since I'm the #1 Mangini hater around I'll give you the ultimate conspiracy theory on this since it just crossed my mind AS A POSSIBILITY (hypothetical opinion alert !)...who knows what's really going on or being said.....but it would not surprise me 1 bit if this is EM's last desperate attempt to make his players play....if not for him, then for themselves....it already worked late last season for him...when he "used" guys he had and reinstated in his doghouse (Harrison anyone?)
so what IF he told his players in a last attempt to save his @$$ or as some kind of no-confidence vote...basically this could be Mangini's version of Singletary's pants down....it would be so fitting to his sado-masochistic character: "if you won't play for your master, play for yourselves slaves"
You must admit...this IS possible....he comes up with all possible ideas, after all he's the master of "not to lose"
Ha,, it was reported by almost everyone last year at this time... Remember?
Frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. otherwise, it's a bunch of rumor and nonsense.
When Holmgren makes his decision, we'll all know it pretty quickly..
All I know is, dispite all the things you say, I still think Mangini is a decent HC.. and I think that Holmgren will recognize that and retain him.
#GMSTRONG
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Frankly, I'll believe it when I see it. otherwise, it's a bunch of rumor and nonsense.
It is....and I was making fun of it and my EM hatred...but I think it's plausible I won't throw a party before I see a Walrus PC or transcript saying it
and yeah, I misread the MaryKay twitter/ran with what another poster posted on another forum....that's on me....still a strange rumor at a strange time isn't it?
Let's see what happens the next 3 weeks...I expect us to come back strong against CIN, we always did after losses this season and CIN is as dead a team that is out there right now...I expect an ugly win handed to us...a MIA-like game, a boring low scorer with us making less dumb mistakes
As I see it, of the last 3 games MH should only be interested in the BAL game...maybe a little bit in this week's game too looking for a reaction against a dead team...but BAL is a serious game at home, against a team who needs the W...if we beat them, he gets next year for sure...PIT will most likely be against their 2s, which is meaningless...Mangini can basically only lose in MH's eyes in the CIN and PIT games...but he has little to lose and could win huge against BAL...that's the game he should save his last trickery for to save his job
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I dont like Mangini and I thought he was a bad hire from day one.
I gave him a chance last year but the way that team played in those first 11 games was even worse than the expansion year.The way he handled things turned me completely off.
If it was me, I would can him and the entire offensive staff. This offensive staff is bad from top to bottom. Hell half these guys we have already fired before.
There are some positives from this season but the negatives have outweighed those positives and they cannot be ignored.
I see many are becoming Gini apologist but it's not me.
His ingame adjustments and managing personnel are one of the biggest shortcomings he's got .
Dabol ..like I said how much is him or Gini making the calls is not known but they both are flunking.
Here's a good question to ask is Gini the type of coach who can take a team like the Browns (which will be given more talent) to the next levels???
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and yeah, I misread the MaryKay twitter/ran with what another poster posted on another forum....that's on me....still a strange rumor at a strange time isn't it?
No, no stranger than all the rumors last year before the win streak at the end..
After the win streak, notice that most of that talk dropped off.. But before the streak, just about all the pundits were digging Manginis grave...
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Saw this on the Brown board and thought it fit here perfect.
__________________________________________________________________
Originally posted by Versatile Dog:
This post is NOT for the know-it-alls. It is for the guys who pm me and ask football questions. It's for guys who want to learn. It's for the guys that just read the posts and have an open mind. This post it not intended to confront all the guys who think they understand play calling. You guys are just too ridiculous to even speak to at this point.
+Play-calling/Philosophy
--There is an old rule among people who really know play calling. You never, ever try to take more chances, speed the game up, get more careless w/the football, etc when you have talent that is inadequate. To do so is suicide. You are then putting the game in the hands of athletes......and you will get KILLED!
--Instead, you try to slow the game down. You call plays that limit the risk of a turnover. You keep the game close and hope the other team gets impatient and makes mistakes. You out-fundamental them. You outwork them. You do NOT try to out do them high risk/high reward play calling.
--The above is not limited to just offense. It also is about the defense. You don't blitz too much. You do not leave your corners on islands. You play fundamental football and make the other team drive the length of the field. Offensively, you stick to conservative plays. You pound the ball even if it is not working. You mix in some play action and occasionally throw the ball deep on obvious running plays. You work real hard to win the field position battle. A punt can be a victory.
--Once again, you have this strategy when your talent is inferior. Which ours is on most Sundays.
--If you believe your talent level is close to most teams, but perhaps lacking somewhat.....you work to develop an identity. That identity is typically having a strong running game that is very physical. You pound, pound, pound. After awhile, you throw in some trick plays. You catch the other team off guard. But again, you do NOT get in a up-and-down track meet w/the opponent.
--If you think you have superior talent most weeks, you look to attack the other team as often as possible. You try to speed up the game and get them into a scoring contest. A contest they can't possibly win. You want them to air it out, to take chances, to try to score quickly. Your superior athletes will soon overcome any creativity they come up with and you will win in a route, much like NE has been doing in recent weeks and Indy did for years.
--For those of you who like to learn; who like to think; who like to get to the real truth of things.....please consider the above and think about where this team is at right now and how the talent level might affect play calling.
Game Plan for the Snow
--I think eotab knows way more about football than almost all football fans, but I think he and others are wrong about last week's game plan.
--I don't think we game-planned exclusively for the snow. Instead, I think we looked at Buffalo's strengths and weaknesses on defense. We thought we could exploit their front seven by running the ball down their throat. We saw that they actually had some talent in the d-backfield.
--Combine that w/our offensive strength which is our running game w/Hillis and throwing short passes to Hillis.
--Now, combine that w/one of our weaknesses, which is receivers who get little separation [did you see the replay w/the overhead shot? Everyone was covered and Jake smartly threw the ball high and out of the back of the endzone. Remember?]
--Combine that w/our another weakness--a qb who gets real nervous and makes bad decisions when he has to hold the ball longer than he likes. Kinda hard to avoid when you have receivers who don't get open.
--Finally, add in the adverse weather conditions.
--All together, you have a recipe for a conservative game plan.
Was Daboll Perfect?
--Nope. In fact, I thought it was his worst performance. I thought he limited himself and the O a couple of times on third down. I thought he was thinking too much in the 2nd half. He frustrated me a couple of times. Then again, don't all coordinators if you are looking at it objectively? Don't they all make you wonder? Perhaps not, but only because you don't care what they do.
--Truthfully, I think Daboll has done an excellent job w/the little bit of talent he has on offense this year. It is almost incredible. I'm telling you that our offensive talent is horrible! I sometimes wonder how the heck he ever gets us to look productive.
The Blame Game
--Once again, this is only for the objective posters. I'm not arguing w/the mob. Guys, have you ever come on here and read that we were too conservative? Have you ever read that we didn't stick w/the running game long enough? Have you ever read where people were complaining about why are we trying to spread people out? Have you ever read people complaining about us not challenging teams w/our passing game and being too predictable? I have........and I read them all after the same game. LMAO
--Which is it? I don't think any of them know, but they sure as hell sound smart when they say the play calling sucks and that we need to fire the OC.
Why Do We Run the Ball So Much?
--One reason is because of what I stated in the beginning of the post. Right now, our team is between the absolutely pitiful talent level and the just below average talent level. We are closer to the pitiful level, but our coaches have done a good job of making these guys believe in themselves.
--A second reason is that is the strongest part of the offense. We have a decent, powerful back in Hillis and a pretty good OL. Combine that w/our qb and WR play is terrible.
Why Do We Sometimes Spread Teams Out?
--That's a valid question and concern. It kinda goes against what I have been talking about. However, there is a reason to the supposed madness. Instead of just giving you the answer, allow me to pose a question: "What would you do if you were the defensive coordinator of a team who is playing the Browns?" You have watched the game tapes. You know the Browns love to run the ball. You know that Hillis is a tough runner. A productive runner. A guy who catches a lot of short passes. You also know the OL is pretty stout. You learn that our qbs don't have great arm strength and don't threaten teams on those intermediate to longer routes that are not bombs---the 18-22 yard routes. You also note that our WRs get very little separation and can be covered by one man. So, what would you do?
Probably the same thing opposing D-coordinators are doing---which is stacking the LOS w/7, 8, and 9 guys. How do you run against that front? How do you throw screens? Run draws? The answer is you try to spread them out occasionally. You make them cover the field even if you don't call a risky play. You make them substitute to cover the outside guys. You then try and speed the tempo up and switch back into your normal set and try to not give them time to substitute and adjust. Tell me you haven't noticed that? The problem is that speeding up that tempo is tough when you are coaching a team w/3 new qbs, a new RB, a new TE, a new starting WR, and another raw WR who is in his second year. Additionally, our team has been forced to switch qbs multiple times throughout this year alone. Is anyone understanding what is going on here? Anyone?
Some of you I'm sure remember Vers......................?
BTTB
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In the end analysis this is Mike Holmgren's team, and I am more than ok with that.
Eric Mangini has some admirable qualities and if he is retained by Holmgren I am also OK with that. Continuity is something I am a firm believer in.
The issue here is obviously offensively philosophy. It has been the conflict from day one. Holmgren extended Mangini because he felt he could work with him number one, and number two he felt Mangini was owed the opportunity having been here only one year and the fact that he was hired by Lerner.
There is still three games to go. However, the results to date are not what Holmgren is looking for offensively.
There is no doubt in my mind that next years offense will be Holmgren's offense. Whether or not that begins with a new head coach or if Mangini's is kept and Daboll is replaced remains to be seen.
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Bingo.
All you people who want Daboll gone don't know what the hell you're talking about.
But no, let's fire him. Let's fire Mangini. Let's continue this circus of blaming coaches instead of realizing we need to acquire talent.
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I'm middle of the road at this point. I think Mangini should stay and get another year. I also think there are still serious questions about his coaching ability, ones that if Holmgren thinks can not be rectified, would go a long way toward justifying his firing.
I think Mangini has proven enough to stay. I also don't think he's proven near enough to have the thought of his getting fired qualify as "lunacy."
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Quote:
Some of you I'm sure remember Vers......................?
I love Vers and respect his knowledge a ton....but he tends to over-defend Coaches constantly and I have to call BS on his apology treatise
Do we have less talent than TB, KC, JAX, CAR, BUF? Hardly...yet we still play called stubbornly...it's nice to have an identity, it's stupid if you persist of running it when the opponent has clearly figured it out and stops it (against KC, TB they did the other outsmart move, we dominated them with the run and we came out passing in the 2nd...only stop doing something until it doesnt work anymore)....everybody knows whats coming and you do it as long as your in the game...the moment you are behind and have to pass with little time left...well the opponent knows again what you're going to do...like a calling station in poker you always put yourself in a bad situation/bad odds
We did win the NO and NE games risking more, mixing it up more...the risk averse-philosophy just makes you play down to your inferior opponent and lose less badly to better teams...it's lose-lose philosophy that is defendable only in particular gameday situations...as a gameplan it plain sucks
#gmstrong
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I loved the post by Vers #1 it confirmed for me what I already know. The guy has a way to write that I can’t duplicate, but man he laid it out.
The one thing Vers didn’t touch on that I think is valid. We have had a revolving QB situation here for 2 seasons now. As much as the board football guru’s complain about play calling it would seem they missed on this one. Pretty much anyone with the basic football 101 on their resume knows that changing QB’s is a death sentence for an offense.
I look at this team and I see a lot of the same ingredients that you see in NE with one big minus. A franchise QB. Same type players same type team concepts the same style of coaching.
We see NE go from a more down the field attacking type offense that uses multiple WR’s and almost never using their TE’s to a team that is now using their TE’s more and more. In fact they drafted 2 TE’s in this draft. They have had no less then 3 OC’s over that time yet they continue to be the most productive offense in the NFL. What is it they got we don’t?
It’s impossible for an OC to build an offense around a QB when he doesn’t know from one week to the next who that QB is going to be. You can X and O it to death, but until we have consistant play with the same guy taking snaps week in and week out this offense will suffer. You want to impress me, tell me how (prove to me)that isn’t true?
We can kick this staff to the curb and we have done it countless times now, but I promise will be having this same conversation in another 2 years. There was a time when a change in coaching staff was valid that time has come and gone. We the fans need to get over thinking it’s always the coach or coaches. We have competent coaches we now need what all coaches need, good players and in the case of the Browns that starts with getting a franchise QB.
If you all remember Holmgren said from the beginning his #1 job was to find this team a QB that could lead this team. I’ll take that one step further a QB that we can build an offense around. Right now that may or may not be Colt, but it starts there.
Daboll for all his supposed faults has done a great job working with this kid and play calling during his time under center. As time has gone by from one week to the next he has increased the offense under Colt without asking to much from him. He has done everything he can to protect him and keep him out of bad situations. I think his work with Colt has been nothing short of wonderful.
But a 5 week mid season run is hardly the best of places to build an offense around a QB, those things are generally done in pre-season, but yet Daboll has worked tirelessly along with Colt and Jake to make this offense at least work. There is much work to be done for sure when it comes to this offense. But without a consistent guy manning the QB slot it’s impossible and short sighted to think it would be much different.
We can try to blame and point fingers or we can be honest about where we are, set fantasy to the side embrace what we have done, look at what needs doing and go forward from there. Or we can choose to blow it up and except the fact will be here having this same conversation next year and the years after……….
The merry go round of misery is real and we have done all we can to make sure it continues to plague what we claim to love…….I don’t get it……….
BTTB
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I love Vers and respect his knowledge a ton....but he tends to over-defend Coaches constantly and I have to call BS on his apology treatise
It's part of him since he was a coach.He and I have had a ton of heated arguments regarding this and other subjects .
What he's not commenting on is the use of personnel and oddly enough the use of playcalling per game.U can't say well the Browns don't have enough talent to compete with teams like NO/NE/Miami blah blah but they play like crap against teams like KC/Tampa/Jacksonville/Carolina/Buffalo...thats too much inconsistancy..
Scheming for the Bills/Panthers should have been easy,but it wasn't ,nor was the execution.
Again ingame adjustments are what I look at and if you watch those games closely the second half of 95% of the games is the story line of this year.It is totally different than the first halves.
the Browns go away from what worked in the first half and if the opponent makes a counter move,the Browns seem confused as to what to do about that.
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"I love Vers and respect his knowledge a ton....but he tends to over-defend Coaches constantly and I have to call BS on his apology treatise"
__________________________________________________________________________
Nobody on this board was more critical of Mangini when he was hired then Vers was. Mangini won Vers over, but bhe did it by proving he could get blood from a stone. Which BTW is what Mangini has been doing sense he got here.
_________________________________________________________________________
"Do we have less talent than TB, KC, JAX, CAR, BUF."
________________________________________________________________________
Every one of those teams has one thing we don't have.. A steady QB. Maybe not a franchise QB but the same guy taking snaps every week, and more often then not that leads to better play from the offense which gives them a huge leg up on us. Oh I should have left out Car, sorry but we beat them anyway.............LOL
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Quote:
but he tends to over-defend Coaches constantly and I have to call BS on his apology treatise
OMG,,, Of course you think he does
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Quote:
All you people who want Daboll gone don't know what the hell you're talking about.
let's be honest, none of us truly know what we're talking about
I don't know the gameplans, the tape-dissection, the meetings. I don't go to them, so I don't know if Daboll can do more, or if he can't.
What I do think I know is that Holmgren knows and that he will have his finger on the pulse enough to know if a change is required. If it is, I think he will make it. If he thinks Daboll can develop with more weapons, I think he will give him that chance.
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What I do think I know is that Holmgren knows and that he will have his finger on the pulse enough to know if a change is required. If it is, I think he will make it. If he thinks Daboll can develop with more weapons, I think he will give him that chance.
I agree. The only way I think Holmgren changes coaches is if he takes over himself. In that way, there's a good chance of not having a total overhaul. He's been in charge for one year, and maybe he sees this as the perfect situation to take over a team that needs some pieces added. Or he sees Mangini as a guy who can win once those pieces are added. For my two cents, I think it's either Mangini or Holmgren as head coach next season, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Daboll gone.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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If Holmgren fires Mangini then it's clear he never gave Mangini a fair shot.
You give a coach a QB who was the worst in the NFL the year before whose skills have diminished further and see if he can win with said QB.
You give him one of the least talented offenses in the NFL and expect miracles. It doesn't happen.
If Holmgren fires Mangini to return to the sidelines it will be due to Holmgren's own greed...and the success that Holmgren will have in the future will be due to the foundation Mangini built (much like Rex's success in New York).
Is that fair to Coach? I sure as hell don't think so.
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Quote:
I love Vers and respect his knowledge a ton....but he tends to over-defend Coaches constantly and I have to call BS on his apology treatise
He applied sound football logic and made perfect sense. He and I have butted horns at times, but I've always respected his opinion and most all of his breakdowns when it comes to football.
If you so disagree with him, why not break it down, quote it and give some sound oppositions to his points?
I read your post on the matter. If we openned up the O, you'd be asking why because there are so many int's being thrown and how stupid it was. You refuse to try to break it down and rebuke it point by point because it would defy common logic.
So why keep spewing and not address his points? I'll be happy to defend them because it's basic football 101.
I like everyone get my passion and ire up sometimes right after a game. but after I settle down to the point of being logical about things, I end up right back where I started.
Please break it down and show point by point how wrong vesre is if you can. It would actually be greatly appreciated.
jmho
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Quote:
If Holmgren fires Mangini then it's clear he never gave Mangini a fair shot.
You give a coach a QB who was the worst in the NFL the year before whose skills have diminished further and see if he can win with said QB.
You give him one of the least talented offenses in the NFL and expect miracles. It doesn't happen.
If Holmgren fires Mangini to return to the sidelines it will be due to Holmgren's own greed...and the success that Holmgren will have in the future will be due to the foundation Mangini built (much like Rex's success in New York).
Is that fair to Coach? I sure as hell don't think so.
I agree,...I admit, I did not like the Mangini hire as it happened. But something is going on,....Holmgren kept him. That says a lot, right there. I say he should get another year.
We haven't heard one single lone player come out and say, "I can't play for this guy." NOT a WORD.
Didn't Chuck Noll go 1-15 in Bradshaw's first year ? Someone already mentioned Cowher's losing Steeler seasons.
They're talking Mohrningweg, Mariucci, and even Childress, on local radio.
Let's say it happens,...I'd want either Fisher, or Gruden.
In the meantime, when Mike Holmgren comes on TV and says Mangini is done after this year, then I believe it. Until then,...it is a BAD idea.
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So there's no possible way NO and NE took us for granted and we beat them because of it huh? That we had a very good day while they had a very bad day? Come on Attack, what was Brady's % that day again? Why do some refuse to look at the fact there were two teams playing those days, not just one. Or are you saying we do have the talent to beat NE and NO on one of their "good days"? Even one of their average days? Quote:
"We were out of sync all day," Brady said. "It was not a good day at all. As an offense, we didn't do much to advance the ball, and that includes the quarterback. If we play like we played today we are not going to beat anybody."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2010/11/07/4053_recap.html#ixzz18J2IAjvd
Two teams play every week Attack. How each team plays on any given day contribute to the outcome.
jmho
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