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If it looks like Mangini was put in an impossible position, then Holmgren fires him and takes over, he'll look really bad.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What is the impossible position that Mangini was put in?
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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If Holmgren decided that he was going to let Mangini take the bullets for a year with a very difficult schedule, and with a team that didn't stand a chance of winning more than 6-8 games ... and then fire him so he could take over with a more complete team and an easier schedule.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If Holmgren decided that he was going to let Mangini take the bullets for a year with a very difficult schedule, and with a team that didn't stand a chance of winning more than 6-8 games ... and then fire him so he could take over with a more complete team and an easier schedule.
This team had more than a chance of winning 6-8 games. We absolutely gave 3 games away, and we were in 2 more to the very end. I'm holding out on judging Mangini until the season's over, but he's not helping his cause the last 4 games. He was definitey outcoached today.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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The Lunacy of Firing Mangini
With the Browns performance yesterday, coupled with the Browns performance against the Bills...Mangini is making it impossible for Holmgren...not to fire him.
The performance of Mangini's team in the last two games may seal his fate..one way or the other.
Enough about "Lunacy"...it's about "progress"!
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Agreed. Losing to 2-win teams like this ... Mangini's fate is sealed.
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I don't know enough of how Holmgren thinks to know if he's sealed his fate or not but he's not making for a very good case for keeping his job by losing these last two and winning very ugly on the third. Beating NO and NE certainly upped his stock but right now the dude's in free fall, with Balt and Pitt, both at home, coming up, the odds aren't with him improving his position.
I know the team that played yesterday with the effort they put out, we won't even be in these games.
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Impossible position? Is this the start of excuse no.97? If he didn't get outcoached against as bad or lesser talented/spirited teams the last 2 weeks he would be sitting at 7-7, nobody would remember the 2 luckbox Ws he had before them and nobody but me would talk about firing a bad HC...even me, I really expected Mangini to win at least 1 of those games, as his teams normally have shown some reaction after bad losses like last week but this D was in some QUIT mode...what about beating 2 (or at least 1) of the worst teams in this league was "impossible"?  Yet, as crazy as Mangini led teams are I'm not throwing a party yet....if he beats the Ravens next week and has another respectable game against PIT he might save his job but I hope MH has seen enough of a pattern with Mangini to just punt him no matter what. There's just no point in taking away his power offseason after offseason...if you don't trust him to effectively coach an entire roster, then he's no HC material and just fire him after this season
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Jc
Who is going to be available to coach? I am so tired of being a "rebuilding team".
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Reading the first part of the story below, it sounds like many on this team have quit!
Cleveland Browns lacked intensity, say Colt McCoy and Peyton Hillis; Browns Insider
Cincinnati -- Two of the Browns' top offensive players -- Colt McCoy and Peyton Hillis -- said the Browns lacked energy, intensity and even motivation on the part of some.
It was the second straight week that McCoy described the team as lacking energy and enthusiasm, including last week's loss to the Bills, who like the Bengals, had two wins before beating the Browns.
"You've got to win games like this," McCoy, who finished with a 132.6 rating, said after the 19-17 loss to the Bengals. "It's our division -- you've got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy -- we lacked a little bit of intensity. And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team, and it stems from all of us coming together and really playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It's hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that's what you've got to do."
Hillis, who ran only 14 times but averaged 4.2 yards for a total of 59, echoed those sentiments.
"The whole team has to be involved and has to be motivated and stuff like that," said Hillis. "We have to get to that point. We're so 'off and on' through the whole game. We've got to get to the point where we're like that every drive."
You can read the rest of the story here.. web page
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Right now I want Kubiak as OC...this guy knows Offense and prodouces a good running game out of nothing (both in DEN and HOU)
As HC, I'm no Gruden fan...but he'd be an upgrade over EM
My wishlist:
1. Fisher
2t M.Nolan (Nolan knows 34 D and did a great job in DEN with lesser talent he'd find here)
2t Fox
3. some up and coming candidate, somebody like Spags in STL come to mind, no College Coach (not a fan of this setup but I'd trust Holmgren)
My best case would be Fisher HC, Nolan DC and Kubiak OC..but no way 3 HC ambitioned guys can work together. Fisher has a pretty conservative D-approach from what I've heard and I'm not a big fan of this but he's a good overall HC.
Most effective O and D mix on paper would be Nolan/Kubiak imho...but there are questions about Nolan's leadership qualities as HC and I'm not sure a setup of DC promoted to HC and OC demoted from HC would work
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Reading the first part of the story below, it sounds like many on this team have quit!
Cleveland Browns lacked intensity, say Colt McCoy and Peyton Hillis; Browns Insider
Cincinnati -- Two of the Browns' top offensive players -- Colt McCoy and Peyton Hillis -- said the Browns lacked energy, intensity and even motivation on the part of some.
It was the second straight week that McCoy described the team as lacking energy and enthusiasm, including last week's loss to the Bills, who like the Bengals, had two wins before beating the Browns.
"You've got to win games like this," McCoy, who finished with a 132.6 rating, said after the 19-17 loss to the Bengals. "It's our division -- you've got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy -- we lacked a little bit of intensity. And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team, and it stems from all of us coming together and really playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It's hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that's what you've got to do."
Hillis, who ran only 14 times but averaged 4.2 yards for a total of 59, echoed those sentiments.
"The whole team has to be involved and has to be motivated and stuff like that," said Hillis. "We have to get to that point. We're so 'off and on' through the whole game. We've got to get to the point where we're like that every drive."
You can read the rest of the story here.. web page
Damn, I love this kid,, He's a winner from way down deep in his soul.. We need more guys like him and Hillis.. 
As for the comment, I get the sense that you are reading way to much into this..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
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EM admitted after the Buffalo game the Browns came out flat. Yesterday like the Buffalo game the Browns came out marched down the field and scored points. Then the offense was stymied by the opposing defenses (both games) the rest of the game.
Whose to blame? The players? The coaching staff.
You know you are trouble when EM starts calling the defensive plays during the game. He lost his DC job in New England for a reason.
EM is out coached in just about every game. He displays poor time management. Just like Romeo. They both share something in common. They were both DC in new England. So much for taking coaches from that tree.
Playing close to vest in all your games reminds me of Romeo.
One player miscue and you lose. We are not good enough to not take some chances. Using backups because of injuries increases the chance of miscues.
I am tired of hearing about the "Process". EM is beginning to sound like a snake oil salesman. I want results not excuses.
Whether EM goes or stays, we will be rebuilding/building with new players next year.
What 7 years and we still don't have a good 3-4 defense. If we added one guy a year we would have it. We don't have a 4-3 either. We just have a bunch of bodies.
I'm getting old. I'm 68 and tired of waiting around for a decent team. I have been a fan since 1950. Super Bowl game would be nice. I am willing to settle for the playoffs.
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
are you talking to me? I'm not a fan of firing coaches and I'm not wanting to fire Mangini..,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
"You've got to win games like this," McCoy, who finished with a 132.6 rating, said after the 19-17 loss to the Bengals. "It's our division -- you've got to get hyped up. I thought early on we lacked a little bit of energy -- we lacked a little bit of intensity. And that stems from me, that stems from the older guys on this team, and it stems from all of us coming together and really playing with a lot of energy and a lot of focus. It's hard to do late in the season. But if you want to be a successful football team and want to play great late in the stretch, that's what you've got to do."
Appreciate you trying to take the bullet there Colt but that responsibility doesn't fall to you, it falls to Eric Mangini. Very damning stuff there when your players are saying your team plays without energy, focus or intensity. It doesn't surprise me though... I was listening to T.J. Ward do an interview on Sirius and they asked him how Eric Mangini was getting them prepared for an inter-state rivalry and he stumbled through an answer that pretty much said he wasn't aside from it being another game.
Coaches need to do everything they can to get players pumped for games and if you have to play the inter-state card or hit on divisional game like crazy, you do it, regardless of how crappy both teams are. Instead, it seems like he's losing the players in a bad season despite having a great locker room. Not saying it's a defining factor in the Mangini decision but hearing stuff like this is just another strike against him.
We're... we're good?
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
Let's say the Browns retain Mangini for the 2011 season. We have a good FA period and a solid overall draft, but Mangini starts the season 1-5. Are you still going to be on his bandwagon?
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Coaches need to do everything they can to get players pumped for games and if you have to play the inter-state card or hit on divisional game like crazy, you do it, regardless of how crappy both teams are.
Coaches are important in getting guys fired up, but, like many others have said before, if these players need someone else to get them fired up, then they're in the wrong business.
I want guys on my team who are going to fight tooth and nail no matter if we're on the way to the Super Bowl are going 0-16. I don't want guys who NEED a coach to pump them up.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I was listening to T.J. Ward do an interview on Sirius and they asked him how Eric Mangini was getting them prepared for an inter-state rivalry and he stumbled through an answer that pretty much said he wasn't aside from it being another game.
Interesting. I've wondered what Mangini is like behind closed doors. I've wondered if he can get a group of guys riled up and ready to follow him.
Sometimes I think Mangini is too smart for his own good. It's like he's the super nerdy book smart guy with no common sense. He appears almost robotic in his approach to everything.
And I think that works with really smart seasoned guys like a David Bowens. He's smart and mature and doesn't need to be led so much. But there are probably like 5 or 6 guys on every team like that. Most people want to be riled up and led in some fashion.
From reading articles about the JETS this year, I can guarantee you that every single JETS player that played for Mangini would say that Mangini is "smarter" than Rex Ryan. But I don't get the impression that many would say they would rather play for Mangini.
I think Mangini laid the ground work for a self fulfilling prophecy with all his talk of being "The Cleaner". Right now, he either doesn't have the personality to be an all encompassing head coach or he just doesn't possess all the skills and may never possess them. People are who they are after all.
And that's just on the personality side of things ... game day ... ugh ... just terrible.
JMHO ...
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
Let's say the Browns retain Mangini for the 2011 season. We have a good FA period and a solid overall draft, but Mangini starts the season 1-5. Are you still going to be on his bandwagon?
Will you jump on the bandwagon if he's retained starts the year out at 5-0.. or will you find things wrong no matter what?
Better yet, if he's retained, I think it's safe to say that it would ONLY be if Holmgren believes in what he's trying to do and feels he's on the right track...
So, in that case, would the folks on here be more knowledgable than Holmgren, or is he another Savage?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I have been critical of Mangini and staff, but if Holmgren believes they are his guys then I'll be behind them. I am ambivalent right now on Mangini's return, but I have problems with people who would relieve Daboll and/or Ryan, while absolving the man who hired them, the man who - according to media reports - vettes all of their gameplans and in-game decisions. That would be Mangini. Does anyone really believe that Mangini will sit still while Holmgren ditches Daboll and Ryan, and replaces them with his own men? And if he were to sit still for that, how much would that weaken him with his team?
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
This team is going south like a duck in winter and someone has to be responsible for this mess. Lets see, if we have 7 draft picks, keep about 5 guys and pick up 41 in free agency we can fire the team. Outside of that, the coaches are responsible...
#GMSTRONG
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
So we should keep Mangini just for the sake of mediocrity?
If Mangini isn't the coach of the future, why should he stay? And if you can honestly say that you like what you are seeing from Mangini's team, then I will question what you want as a fan.
you had a good run Hank.
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Ammo and a few others have gone the blind faith route.
No matter what, they've decided the best thing for the Browns is sticking with Mangini. If Mangini forfeited the next two games, they would still go with him. It's a conviction that they've decided to get married to, and nothing will change their minds.
Obviously, that's their right. They are willing to forgive game day mistakes and questionable hires because of the positives that Mangini does bring to the table. They believe those positives are a sign that Mangini can correct the things he's not good at given more time and talent. I'm not sure how talent ties into some of the game day flubs we continue to see, but they believe it does.
They don't believe that staying the course is good just for the sake of doing it. They actually believe it will work in this case because of those positives Mangini does bring to the table. It seemed RAC, for example, brought very few positives so there was nothing to latch onto. Here they have something to latch onto because Mangini has done some good here.
I think I've about covered it. Catch me at the right time of the day, and I might be able to see it through those eyes. But I don't think that all of his positives necessarily translate to winning, and I don't think that all of the game day mistakes are because of a lack of talent. Sometimes when you look at things in a vacuum they aren't always interrelated.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I wouldn't say they are wrong either, because one day it might all click for Mangini.
The biggest problem I see, though, is his unwillingness to take any sort of chances. Well, outside of the Pats and Saints games when it appears someone else kidnapped Mangini and game planned for those games.
The "play tight to the 4th quarter" strategy is something that works great against good teams but absolutely sucks against bad teams. It was the same problem he had in New York, in that he refused to open up the offense in order to bury his opponent or at the very least, make them disinterested in playing or giving them the "here we go again" feeling.
I think the best we could ever get from Eric Mangini is a playoff appearance and maybe even getting to the divisional round.
you had a good run Hank.
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You guys just love firing coaches, don't you?
Were not firing Mangini, Mangini is doing a good enough job firing himself.
Look Ammo I wouldn't mind keeping Mangini to be honest, but we need to make something clear here:
This was Eric Mangini "try out year" for Holmgren...Randy Lerner thought very highly of Eric and I am sure Holmgren took that into consideration. After meeting Eric, Holmgren thought he said enough right things to give him a shot.
Holmgren said as much the day he stated he was retaining him....Holmgren wanted a "feel out period" to see if he thinks he can win with Eric. In other words Holmgren gave Mangini a shot to prove to Holmgren that Mangini's way works and they can be successful with it.
I personally would like to keep Mangini, but Holmgren don't feel the progresss is there, he is going to go back to what he knows which is WCO..it is what it is...
Mangini has really hurt his chances the last 2 weeks...if by some miracle he could win 1 or both of our next 2 games...then he has a chance...if we get run over..oh boy
I really don't think Holmgren wants to fire Mangini, but the way the team has played the last 2 weeks I don't think Mangini is giving Holmgren much of a choice in the matter...
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This team is going south like a duck in winter
They won the same amount of games as last year. There were a handful of games that we had a lead in the 4th quarter but fell short. We have been in just about every game.
Compare that to last year and I'd say that's some progress not regression. People need to understand that this team isn't all that talented. I will admit that Mangini screwed up the 2009 draft, but that is why Homgren and Heckert is here.
They got rid of Edwards and no one has replaced him yet. They got rid of KW2 and I'd say Watson has just as good of numbers on a lesser team.
The roster is still being made over and they don't have the talent needed to be a playoff team. So lets fire Mangini, bring in a new coach and they will do the same thing and before he has all of his pieces in place there will be a huge uproar to get rid if him.
I still think that this team is two years of decent drafts/free agent pick ups to be a Superbowl team. It will be even longer if we get rid of Mangini and his replacement wants to bring in "his" guys.
Our needs in no paticular order:
WR
ILB
OLB
DE
S
CB
RG
RT
And that is the team right now. If someone else comes in and get rid of other players then that list is going to grow and it will take longer.
Mangini is a good coach won't call him great, but no one is great until they win the ring. Who else is going to replace him??
Cower...nope won't come here.
Gruden....has a ring but his overall work as a coach isn't all that impressive, only 1 back to back winning seasons and a lot of .500/sub .500 ball. And he won his ring with someone eases team/players.
Fox...would he really come here if he is fired. He's been to a Superbowl but doesn't have a ring.
Fisher...again would he come here? Again another guy that hasn't won a ring. Overall a good coach but I wouldn't get rid of Mangini unless I know for sure I could land him.
That is probably the short list, don't know the vast list of Cordinator/College HC that would be on the long list but we have been down that road before with no success and I'd rather stay with Mangini if that is the type of selection we would have to go with.
I want to stay the course. I've seen improvement even if it hasn't translated into wins yet. One more year and another FA/Draft period and I think we can be a team fighting for the playoffs next year (assuming there is football.) in late December.
JMHO
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I agree with you free..
Gotta say this first. I know my limitations. I understand that I don't understand everything about football,, I get it. So if Holmgren comes along and says,, we are retaining Mangini and his staff, then I'm going to bow to his knowledge..
Conversely, if he cans Mangini and the coaching staff, I'm not going to be overly depressed either. even if I think it's a mistake to do so.
But if he does that, I sure as hell hope he has a better plan in mind.. either he comes down on the field (and I don't know if that will work out) or he has someone in mind already.
Holmgren doesn't strike me as a guy that makes knee jerk reactions to adversity. He appears to be a planner.. a guy that is always thinking of the "what ifs".
My guess is that the decision on what to do no matter what he decides regarding Mangini, is already planned out...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Gotta say this first. I know my limitations. I understand that I don't understand everything about football,, I get it. So if Holmgren comes along and says,, we are retaining Mangini and his staff, then I'm going to bow to his knowledge..
I'm right there as well I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination. If Holmgren gets rid of Mangini I won't shed a tear. I just want a winner and for this team to be built so we are a consistent winner and not a one year wonder, however I'll take the one year wonder over a no year wonder.
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j/c
After wins against Carolina and the Dolphins, with the Bills and Bengals up next, I thought Mangini's future with the Browns looked good.
Last season, Holmgren reasoned that the way the team responded at the end of the season, winning their last 4 games, that Mangini had the team headed in the right direction.
If the Browns end this season 5-11 again and on a 4 game losing streak...it would be hard to say the Browns are headed in the right direction?
Browns fans need to keep in mind, when Lerner hired Holmgren, the standards by which the Browns coaches and players were being judged, probably went up considerably.
Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I want Holmgren to apply the same standard that allowed him to take 12 teams to the playoffs in his 17 yr coaching career. I want to see the Browns in the playoffs, competing to get to a Super Bowl.
I know we don't have all the players needed to achieve that goal, but I've developed some serious doubts that this coaching staff is capable of meeting that standard.
If Holmgren decides that coaching changes need to be made, so be it...whatever Mike says.
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Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
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I wasn't talking to you Daman, my apologies. I was j/c.
But my God...we need to stop this crap. The Browns' ups and downs are based on lack of talent.
Here's the truth: If you have average talent, your team will be up and down every single week. Literally a coin flip. We don't even have AVERAGE talent.
Name me a skill position player on this team who is top 5 or even top 10 in his position in the league. You can't unless his name is Peyton Hillis.
We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers. The solution is to acquire difference makers.
But no, we want to shuffle the roster and start all over and fire coaches. We just love firing coaches in this town. Makes me wanna puke.
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1st String
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Quote:
We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers.
We had a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft. We wound up with a center. Don't mistake my point, I love having Mack on the team and a Top 5 pick is by no means a guarantee of getting a difference maker, but don't pretend Mangini is blameless.
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Is the path that Mangini has put the team on a path that successful teams take?
I believe that it is.
Are the schemes that Mangini runs through his assitants schemes that have been proven successful in other places in the NFL?
Again, I believe they have.
Has the team shown progress, not only in win/loss, but in all aspects of the game, and by every measurable?
Again, I believe it has.
Is the team still lacking a few key positions on both sides of the ball?
Once more, I believe that they are. I think that we've tried admirably to fill all of the holes ..... but Gocong and Fujita are not speed guys. They were probably a copuple of the best available players we could get at their positions in the off-season, and we got them for a very minimal investment of draft picks, (none in Fujita's case) but while they helped address needs, they still don't address the speed deficiency this team suffers from.
If the team adds a veteran, quick WR, a pure pass rusher, a run stuffing DE, and a solid RT in the off-season, would this team become a playoff team?
I believe that it would. I don't think that we are lacking in coaching or scheme right now. We are lacking in speed at some key positions. Unfortunately, this becomes more pronounced when we go down a player or 2. One thing that can never be taught is speed. You can't coach it up. You can try to scheme around a lack of speed, but that is always living on the edge.
That's exactly what we have done all year long. We have lived on the edge. We're good enough to be in damn near every game, but lack that play here or there that would turn a loss into a win. Just one big play on offense or defense and we could see almost every game this year flip the results.
That's why I am not willing to dump Mangini. I do believe that Daboll is gone no matter what. I would bet that our WR coach would be gone as well, if Mangini is retained. I would expect that our QB coach and RB coach would stay. Frankly, I think that Carl Smith has done an amazing job having 3 different QBs ready to play, and play at a solid level. (even with Delhomme's struggles, which I believe to be physical at this point) I would think that the defensive staff would remain if Mangini is retained, because they have done a solid job .... again while lacking the key ingredient in a 3-4 .. a speed rusher or 2.
If we had gone backwards this year, then I would say dump Mangini. However, given the overall improvement, especially against the tough schedule we have played, and I think that he deserves another year ... no matter what happens in the last 2 games.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree with a lot of what you say. That's why I'm not decided on Mangini and certainly not openly advocating firing him at this point in time. My problem is the people (not you) that seem to imply that Mangini is blameless in all this and anyone questioning him is committing an act of lunacy.
I think, despite the positives he's brought, many of which you've listed, there are still serious questions surrounding Mangini's coaching abilities. His talent evaluation--not in terms of player acquisition but who takes the field (see: Delhomme, Jake and Wallace, Seneca). His gameday adjustments and decisions. His clock management. I don't know if these inadequacies are enough to prevent him from taking us to the promised land, but if Holmgren thinks they are, then Mangini needs to go.
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Since you're on a greek philosophers rhetoric trip here's another one or two for you: Are we less talented than CAR, BUF and CIN? If not: did we, maybe, just maybe, get outcoached in those games? Do I believe you're the biggest cheerleader around? Yes, I believe you are  Your post was a classic mix of apology treatise and getting causation and correlation wrong (Correlation doesn't implay causation: only because other teams have been successful with this scheme, doesnt imply that Mangini's will....ALL schemes have worked and failed in the NFL...if any scheme never would have worked it wouldn't be a NFL scheme)
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I'm not Ytown but I can answer your question. Quote:
Are we less talented than CAR, BUF and CIN?
On offense most likely but our Defense is leaps and bounds better when they're healthy. We have suffered from facing teams with a decent running attack which causes our defensive scheme to go vanilla. Ryan tries to blitz but our slow defenders can't catch up or tackle on a decent screen pass. We can't disguise anything because everyone will be out of position to prevent a run.
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Quote:
Quote:
We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers.
We had a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft. We wound up with a center. Don't mistake my point, I love having Mack on the team and a Top 5 pick is by no means a guarantee of getting a difference maker, but don't pretend Mangini is blameless.
Eric Mangini does not pick the players. Tom Heckert does.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers.
We had a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft. We wound up with a center. Don't mistake my point, I love having Mack on the team and a Top 5 pick is by no means a guarantee of getting a difference maker, but don't pretend Mangini is blameless.
Eric Mangini does not pick the players. Tom Heckert does.
ammo...I believe comicsans was referring to the 2009 draft...Mack.
Heckert was not here in 2009 and as we know, Mangini played a big role in trading down, bypassing a lot of talented players to pick a center.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
So let me get this right,, because RAC failed after 4 years and Davis failed after 3.5 years, then that MUST MEAN that Mangini will fail in roughly that same timeframe?
Now there is some amazing logic for you... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Lunacy of Firing Mangini
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