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We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers.
We had a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft. We wound up with a center. Don't mistake my point, I love having Mack on the team and a Top 5 pick is by no means a guarantee of getting a difference maker, but don't pretend Mangini is blameless.
Eric Mangini does not pick the players. Tom Heckert does.
ammo...I believe comicsans was referring to the 2009 draft...Mack.
Heckert was not here in 2009 and as we know, Mangini played a big role in trading down, bypassing a lot of talented players to pick a center.
So Mangini the coach should pay for the sins of Mangini the GM?
That's wrong and not fair.
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Here's the truth: If you have average talent, your team will be up and down every single week. Literally a coin flip. We don't even have AVERAGE talent.
Name me a skill position player on this team who is top 5 or even top 10 in his position in the league. You can't unless his name is Peyton Hillis.
But no, we want to shuffle the roster and start all over and fire coaches. We just love firing coaches in this town. Makes me wanna puke.
Jacksonville, KC and Tampa Bay all seem to disagree with your top 5-10 talent argument. And I'll exclude MJD and Jamaal Charles since you want to exclude Peyton Hillis.
Those respective coaches seem to be getting more production out of the talent they are given. By the way, WE don't fire the coach. That would be Holmgren's decision. Mangini is just making the decision that much easier for him to make. But by all means...puke away
To me it is not even so much Mangini's record that bothers me, it is his play not to lose mentality. Overly conservative approach to the game, poor clock management, lack of in-game adjustments etc. We'll see what happens at the end of the season. I don't lose a whole lot of sleep over things I cannot control.
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We lack difference makers. It's not coach's fault we have no difference makers.
We had a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft. We wound up with a center. Don't mistake my point, I love having Mack on the team and a Top 5 pick is by no means a guarantee of getting a difference maker, but don't pretend Mangini is blameless.
Eric Mangini does not pick the players. Tom Heckert does.
ammo...I believe comicsans was referring to the 2009 draft...Mack.
Heckert was not here in 2009 and as we know, Mangini played a big role in trading down, bypassing a lot of talented players to pick a center.
So Mangini the coach should pay for the sins of Mangini the GM?
That's wrong and not fair.
Where did anyone say that? You said it's not Mangini's fault we have no difference makers. I pointed out a specific example of an opportunity he had to go and get one, choosing instead to trade down and pick a center--again, not necessarily a bad pick in itself but clearly not a difference-maker position. No more, no less.
![[Linked Image from i26.tinypic.com]](http://i26.tinypic.com/30vow7m.jpg)
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Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
So let me get this right,, because RAC failed after 4 years and Davis failed after 3.5 years, then that MUST MEAN that Mangini will fail in roughly that same timeframe?
Now there is some amazing logic for you... 
Where on Earth did I say that?!
I merely pointed out that those who are acting like fans never give coaches time to institute their systems are incorrect. Our last two head coaches each got four years each. I don't think that exactly demonstrates a lack of patience, especially given our lack of success.
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And you've hated the pick of Mangini since before it was made, and everything you post is focused through that lens. So what? Do we get outcoahed? Sure. Does every team? Sure. Is the margin for getting outcoached a lot narrower when your talent level is lower? Sure is. I believe that Mangini has the right type of foundation/scheme to be successful, long term, in Cleveland. I think that he is the right guy to be successful in Cleveland. I have already gone over the reasons I feel this way. You disagree. It happens. You have also done a marvelous job of picking and choosing examples and samples over the past couple of months including only what you want included and dismissing everything that you exclude as unimportant. I don't think that Mangini has done everything right. I don't think that any coach ever does everything 100% correctly. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone screws up. The margin, though, is much closer when you lack playmakers. As far as Buffalo, in your example, I would rate them pretty close to use in terms of overall talent. They tookk Pittsburgh and Baltimore, and Kansas City to OT. They lost to Chicago (in Canada) by 3 points. They beat us, Cincinnati, Miami, and Detroit. They've been a different team since the bye week. Cincinnati was the division champ a year ago. They didn;t lose everyone in a single year. The talent is still mostly there. They've just been a headcase. They played New Orleans really tough just 2 weeks ago. Carolina has struggled mightily on offense. They still have a quality defense. Each team had 1 turnover, and the game was close. We managed to win. Guess what? Sometimes teams struggle and scratch out a win. Think that Miami wishes that they could have scraped out a win against Buffalo yesterday? How about Tampa Bay against Detroit? Those are 2 teams fighting for the playoffs who may have takent themselves out by losing to a far inferior opponent. The Jets couldn't score an offensive TD for 2 straight games. They got healthy against the Steelers, of all teams. This is the NFL. There are no gimmes. Hell, New England is 12-2 ... and they lost to us and the Jets. Baltimore is 10-4, and they lost to Cincinnati. We beat New England and New Orleans, and Pittsburgh lost to both teams. Guess everyone should get fired. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Guess everyone should get fired.
No, usually only HCs that lose double as much as win in back to back seasons get fired...there are even teams that fire their HC after .500 seasons or close to it...that's the NFL too...maybe we should ask to be re-named Cleveland Lowered Expectations
Funny you just about conceeded what I said when we beat NE and NO....you guys refused this exact same argument when I made it 2 months ago, even dreaming about the POs, saying we should be able to beat every team on the schedule left  ....2 months later and we're all of a sudden as talented as BUF and clearly less talented than CIN....what a joke you guys are....grow a backbone
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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j/c
I'm just curious as to how many teams have went through this many QB's, this many times, with at least no more than average talen at best and had a successfull season?
And while it is true that Gini is far from perfect, there's a lot we're lacking in from the aspect of talent in skill postions and it's also been shown that gini goes to MH about things and discusses them with him.
So I don't think ginis fate is set in stone one way or the other as of yet.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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maybe we should ask to be re-named Cleveland Lowered Expectations
From reading your posts for quite some time now, I feel renaming it to Reality Check would be far more appropriate.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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...maybe we should ask to be re-named Cleveland Lowered Expectations
That's too redundant.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
So let me get this right,, because RAC failed after 4 years and Davis failed after 3.5 years, then that MUST MEAN that Mangini will fail in roughly that same timeframe?
Now there is some amazing logic for you...
Where on Earth did I say that?!
I merely pointed out that those who are acting like fans never give coaches time to institute their systems are incorrect. Our last two head coaches each got four years each. I don't think that exactly demonstrates a lack of patience, especially given our lack of success.
You basically made that argument here:
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I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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J/C
Regardless
Mangini took the play calling duties away from Rob Ryan yesterday, and Ryan didn't look to happy about it...that is enough to tell me the wheels are starting to come off.
is it too late? No i don't believe it is....I do think Mangini needs to win both of these next two games to stick around, if he can win 1 of them its 50/50
this is not all about wins and losses though....As much as I want Mangini to get another year to learn from his mistakes, he has made some downright terrible in-game coaching decisions.
I don't know how many times this year the guy has had 2 or 3 timeouts before halftime and he just refuses to use them or take a knee...thats just bad coaching there.
40 seconds and 3 timeouts is an "eternity" in the NFL to try and move down the field and score...this is more true when you know you have to kick off in the second half and the game is still close...you have to try and score there....you have to try and play to win.
Im really hoping Holmgren can "kick Mangini in the tail" and get him to stop with this nonsense of taking knees before halftime with a whole handful of timeouts left in a close game.
I don't care if were winning or losing....3 timeouts and 40 seconds, or even 50 seconds is a long time in the NFL...try and move the ball and score...he has done this many times this year and its defeatist attitude at its finest.
Bellichik used to do this when he was here and it aggrivated me to no end...he don't do this in Pats land anymore because he learned from his mistakes...im hoping Holmgren can help him with this part of his coaching....
even if we lose the next two, im all for keeping Mangini if he shows me improvement in his in game decisions....thats really my only gripe with the guy...regardless if Holmgren don't want to troll the sidelines with a headset then Mangini deserves year 3 but he MUST stop this nonsense of not utilizing his timeouts and play to win games....
thinking "oh somehting bad might happen in the last 30 seconds" so what...something bad can happen in the 1st 30 seconds of the quartter...stop playing scared....
If the game is close against Baltimore and we have 2-3 timeouts left before the half and Eric even takes another knee and don't even try to move the ball for a shot at the endzone or even a field goal i will be going to the store to buy my 5th TV remote this season
one thing that burns me up to no end is " not playing to win" in those situations unless were winning in a blowout...you try and get more points you got 3 timeouts...or 2 timeouts there is no rush...take your time and try to freakin score...its not that difficult.
thats really my only gripe I have with Eric...other then that he is doing a good job with what he has.
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From reading articles about the JETS this year, I can guarantee you that every single JETS player that played for Mangini would say that Mangini is "smarter" than Rex Ryan. But I don't get the impression that many would say they would rather play for Mangini.
I think this is exactly it. There hasn't been an article I've read where someone says he isn't a smart guy. In fact, most say his football knowledge is amazing. The problem is that while that's good enough to make for a damn good coordinator, there are other characteristics that go into making a good head coach. That's what I'm afraid we have with Mangini... someone who is great with the X's and O's but in the end, isn't a good leader of men or decision maker. He might develop those characteristics eventually but until he does, he's not ready to be a head coach at this level.
We're... we're good?
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I don't know how many times this year the guy has had 2 or 3 timeouts before halftime and he just refuses to use them or take a knee...thats just bad coaching there.
I have seen this all around the NFL.. I don't know why but coaches evidently feel that wasting 30 seconds between the 1:30 mark and the 1:00 mark is ok even if you are sitting on 3 timeouts.... then they go to the half with no points and still have 2 of those timeouts.... I get so darn frustrated and Mangini is as bad as anybody but others do it too... I don't know what they save them for.. 30 seconds is 30 seconds, I don't care when you lose it.
Part of the problem, part of the time waste is you see these athletes looking to the sidelines after a guy gets tackled.. the QB is trying to get the offense reset to either spike it or run a play or something but he has to keep looking at the sidelines to see if they are going to call a timeout.... I'm sorry, you have a QB out on the field who should be smart enough to know when to use a timeout. In fact, I think it should be part of the playcall.... call the play then have a signal, if the guy gets tackled in bounds, spike it or use a timeout or run the next play.. something but it just kills me that you can have 2nd and 10 with 1:00 left in the half from your own 40 with 2 timeouts... you complete an 8 yard pass and the guy goes down in bounds and at that moment people start thinking about whether or not to use the timeout... did none of these guys ever do situations in baseball? The coach should know, and by default the QB should also know, if we gain positive yardage but don't get the first down, use a timeout... if we get a sack or a negative play, let the clock run and we'll kneel on it, if we hit a big play beyond the first down marker, use the timeout... then it's not a big freakin' mystery at the end of the play whether or not to use a timeout.
yebat' Putin
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It's not coach's fault
It's really hard to take you seriously when you refer to him like he's your coach.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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sounds like the endearing nick name that Coach B used for his man crush with Shottenheimer LOL!
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It's not coach's fault
It's really hard to take you seriously when you refer to him like he's your coach.
Ammo is puppeteering what hears from Rizzo on "The Really Big Show"
You'll hear references such as..."it's not coach's fault" Ammo's quote earlier in the thread of "you guy's sure like to fire coaches" was the exact line Rizzo said to Fedor and Hammer. He refers to fans as, "Cleveland Fan", Oakland Fan","KC Fan" etc... in the singular which is a copy of Rizzo whom got the idea from Rome. Very Unoriginal.
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It's not coach's fault
It's really hard to take you seriously when you refer to him like he's your coach.
It's a sign of respect for someone who holds a dignified position in the National Football League.
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It's not coach's fault
It's really hard to take you seriously when you refer to him like he's your coach.
It's a sign of respect for someone who holds a dignified position in the National Football League.
What is more dignified than ownership in the NFL??? Having said that, you had no problem demanding weekly apologies to be published on the cover of the PD, for what you deemed, in an inadequate product. I'm am somewhat stunned that you are not demanding Mangini take out a full page ad personally apologizing for a lackluster performance.
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Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
So let me get this right,, because RAC failed after 4 years and Davis failed after 3.5 years, then that MUST MEAN that Mangini will fail in roughly that same timeframe?
Now there is some amazing logic for you...
Where on Earth did I say that?!
I merely pointed out that those who are acting like fans never give coaches time to institute their systems are incorrect. Our last two head coaches each got four years each. I don't think that exactly demonstrates a lack of patience, especially given our lack of success.
You basically made that argument here:
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I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
I honestly don't know how you get that from what I wrote. I never said anything about any coach failing in a set amount of time, nor did I mention Mangini's name in that context. Your inference does not necessarily constitute my implication.
My only point was that our past two coaches have had time to succeed, whereas some here are making it seem like they both got the Ty Willingham treatment and now the same thing is happening to Mangini. Before Mangini got here, we had two coaches in eight years (excluding Robiskie as interim coach). My point was, given how bad we've been, I don't think two coaches in eight years exactly indicates a lack of patience on the part of the organization and its fans.
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Mangini took the play calling duties away from Rob Ryan yesterday, and Ryan didn't look to happy about it...that is enough to tell me the wheels are starting to come off.
You aren't the only one to be saying that.. what did I miss,, was that reported somewhere officially or is that just off the wall thinking? How did you arrive at the conclusion that Ryan had the rug pulled out from under him by mangini?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Browns fans have become used to accepting much less, settling for "progress" and not necessarily Wins. I do not expect Holmgren to lower his standards to our level.
I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
And what reward did we get for our patience? A few extra years in the cellar. Other teams have been turning things around quicker than ever recently. Anybody remember the state of the Falcons three years ago? Now they're one of the favorites in the NFC and playing some of the best football in the NFL.
This is the NFL. If you've got what it takes, prove it. Proving it doesn't entail losing ugly games to 2-win teams in December. And I'm not even sure I want Mangini gone. But it's getting harder and harder to defend the guy staying every week.
So let me get this right,, because RAC failed after 4 years and Davis failed after 3.5 years, then that MUST MEAN that Mangini will fail in roughly that same timeframe?
Now there is some amazing logic for you...
Where on Earth did I say that?!
I merely pointed out that those who are acting like fans never give coaches time to institute their systems are incorrect. Our last two head coaches each got four years each. I don't think that exactly demonstrates a lack of patience, especially given our lack of success.
You basically made that argument here:
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I agree. A handful of posters in this thread have implied, if not said outright, that the people wanting Mangini gone is the "same old thing" we always do. The fact is, Butch Davis got four years. Romeo Crennel got four years. They had time to get "their guys" and implement their system.
I honestly don't know how you get that from what I wrote. I never said anything about any coach failing in a set amount of time, nor did I mention Mangini's name in that context. Your inference does not necessarily constitute my implication.
My only point was that our past two coaches have had time to succeed, whereas some here are making it seem like they both got the Ty Willingham treatment and now the same thing is happening to Mangini. Before Mangini got here, we had two coaches in eight years (excluding Robiskie as interim coach). My point was, given how bad we've been, I don't think two coaches in eight years exactly indicates a lack of patience on the part of the organization and its fans.
WOW,, Look man,, you wrote a coaches name, you indicated the amount of time they were here and the general concensis is that they failed...
If that doesn't say it, then I don't know what does.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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http://www.tribtoday.com/page/content.de...e.html?nav=5025Mangini to stay or go? Holmgren must decide December 21, 2010 - By MIKE McLAIN Tribune Chronicle BEREA The numbers just don't add up for Browns coach Eric Mangini. Forget about the 5-11 record of last season and what could be another 5-11 record this season. When handicapping Mangini's chances to remain as coach next season, the most important number is four. Team president Mike Holmgren will have four years remaining on his contract after this season. If he can transform the Browns into a Super Bowl-caliber team during that time span, it would cap a brilliant NFL career. The problem for Mangini is that four years isn't a long time. Holmgren can't afford to give Mangini another free pass if he thinks it might not work out in the long run. Holmgren needs to get "his" guy in place for next season. That might very well be Mangini, who has Houdini-like qualities, but there's a good chance it could be another coach. The question came at Mangini Monday like a punch to the jaw. Will consecutive losses to the Buffalo Bills and Cincinnati Bengals cost him his job? "I think that the important thing for me and the important thing for the players is to just focus on the next game," Mangini said. "I know you've heard that from me before, and that's really what I believe in. What's important to me is that the guys continue to improve and that we play well as a team. That's what I want for this group of guys, and everything else will handle itself." When you watch the Browns it doesn't evoke memories of a Holmgren-coached team. Offensive ingenuity is a foreign concept. The short, crisp passing game that Holmgren prefers is non-existent most of the time. Frankly, it's a boring offense to watch. The Browns might have the slowest offense in the NFL, something that has to change to give quarterback Colt McCoy a chance to develop his skills. Speed is sorely lacking among the receivers. Brian Robiskie and Mohamed Massaquoi lack the ability to stretch a defense and make big plays. The absence of speed is equally as alarming in the backfield, where Peyton Hillis is the entire running game. This isn't to criticize Hillis, who's been the best addition to the offense in a long time. It's to say that a power runner that doesn't have game-breaking speed needs a partner. There's no doubt that the plan in the offseason was to combine Hillis' power style with the speed and breakaway skills of rookie Montario Hardesty, the second of two second-round draft picks. Hillis was going to be "Mr. Inside" and Hardesty was going to be "Mr. Outside." Unfortunately, for the Browns, Hardesty's injury-plagued past followed him to Cleveland. He missed all of training camp with a minor knee injury. When he finally played, in the preseason finale, he logged seven carries before suffering a season-ending knee injury. That left Jerome Harrison, a late-season standout last year, as the complementary back to Hillis. Harrison obviously wasn't considered a viable option, which is why he was traded to the Philadelphia Eagles in return for running back Mike Bell. The Browns were left with a productive back and fan favorite in Hillis, who's rushed for 1,129 yards and 11 touchdowns, but nothing else. Defenses finally wised up and placed all their resources into slowing down Hillis. Once Hillis was neutralized, the offense was left with no speed at the receiver spots, a shaky right side of the offensive line and the lack of flexibility among the coaching staff. It hasn't been a pretty sight the last few weeks. Mangini shouldn't shoulder most of the blame, but he knows all too well that the head coach is always the fall guy. With each drive that doesn't produce points, Mangini's chances of being back for the 2011 season become less likely. Holmgren can zip through the contacts on his cell phone and find a list of coaches that might be better fits than Mangini for his philosophy. If he's serious about making his mark in Cleveland, Holmgren needs to make a major decision, and he's going to have to make it soon. Given plenty of time, Mangini might be the coach that will finally lead the Browns back to playoff relevancy. The fact is that Holmgren can't afford to wait. mmclain@tribtoday.com
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Is anyone else completely fed up with and sick of all this "does he stay or does he go" talk
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Get used to it... we're stuck with it for a minimum of a few more weeks.
If he stays, then we have at least one more year of it.
It isn't going to change until our performances on the field do.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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since the day he was signed as coach really too.
it'll end for this year in about 2 weeks though. i would doubt Holmgren would drag this thing out very long after the season. he'll either put his horses behind his HC or he'll find a new one.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Is anyone else completely fed up with and sick of all this "does he stay or does he go" talk
For sure.
But since we're in 'The Lunacy of Firing Mangini' thread, I figure that's the talk that should be expected . . .
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Quote:
Quote:
It's not coach's fault
It's really hard to take you seriously when you refer to him like he's your coach.
Really? Sounds pretty silly to me. Most Browns fans I know onsider themselves a part of the Browns family to an extent. If someone asks you "Who's your team?"
Do you explain you don't own a team or belong to a team? Or is your answer, "The Browns"?
Surely you jest at best. If not, you're only speaking semantics here. To say you won't take soeone seriously because of that?
Then most people won't be taking you seriously....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Quote:
Is anyone else completely fed up with and sick of all this "does he stay or does he go" talk
Well yes, I am to be honest. But I look at it as the glass half full.
Usually we have this most every year PLUS a QB contraversy on the board. This year we cut that in half with the arrival of JD and Colt McCoy.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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For starters, I don't think most people take me seriously on here to begin with ... LOL ... Secondly, please find me one post from someone other than Ammo on this board at any point in time ... have the refs go back to the board creation ... see if PPE could dig out all the archives ... whatever it takes ... cover the entire history of the board ... and then I want you to go to Browns chat and search there ... then I want you to go over to the scout website and search there ... and find me any other poster that has ever referred to the coach of the Browns as just "coach" ... not "the coach" or "Mangini" ... or "RAC" or whatever ... just "coach" ... like as if you play directly for the man ... please go find me one. People only talk like that when they are actually on the team. As we know, Ammo is not. That's why it's hard to take him seriously. Ammo has a new schtick every year. This is just the latest. Next year it will be something else. I may not agree with you all the time, but I do like and value your perspective. The fact that you commented on this is disappointing. You know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's not even in the same ballpark as all of us fans saying "us" or "our" in regards to this team. It's about a specific way of talking and addressing someone and then doing it on a message board and imitating a player. It's stupid.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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J/C For those mentioning that Mangini took away the defensive play calling, Mangini had this to say: Quote:
For the record
Mangini disputed reports that he took control of the defensive play calling Sunday. He said defensive coordinator Rob Ryan called the plays, as he usually does.
''I wouldn't do that to Rob,'' Mangini said. ''I have a ton of faith in Rob.''
Mangini was photographed signaling to the defensive players from the sideline. However, he said he was only sending signals to alert the defense about what plays he thought the Bengals' offense was going to run.
link: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/coach-says-hes-confident-in-teams-direction--446544.html
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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I thought he had said something to the effect of "I wouldn't do that to Rob" ... "I love him too much"... I actually thought it was kind of cool the way he said it.
It really showed how he valued the relationship and gave Mangini a bit of that human touch we don't normally see.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
since the day he was signed as coach really too.
it'll end for this year in about 2 weeks though. i would doubt Holmgren would drag this thing out very long after the season. he'll either put his horses behind his HC or he'll find a new one.
Ok, hypothetically, say Mangini goes. I have no clue, no gut feeling. I would not be surprised if he is shown the door, and not surprised if he is not.
Anyway, say he does go. Who do you think the next HC for the Browns would be? Not necessarily who you want it to be, but who do you think it most likely would be?
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Quote:
Ok, hypothetically, say Mangini goes. I have no clue, no gut feeling. I would not be surprised if he is shown the door, and not surprised if he is not.
Anyway, say he does go. Who do you think the next HC for the Browns would be? Not necessarily who you want it to be, but who do you think it most likely would be?
J/C
If Holmgren decides to can Mangini...."who" will be coach depends on a few things:
1. If Holmgren cans him within a few weeks after the Regular Season...then Holmgren is coming back to the sidelines.
2. If Holmgren waits until "after" the CBA is settled before he fires Mangini...then Holmgren will be hiring another coach.
Until Holmgren falt out says he isn't going to coach, I still believe the plan all along was that if Mangini didn't work out, Holmgren would take over as HC...this was all to play out after Holmgren had taken care of hiring the FO and such.
If Mangini is canned quickly and before the CBA is settled, then Mike Holmgren is returning to the sidelines, and he will bring a few of his friends with him:
HC Mike Holmgren
OC Gill Haskill
QB Coach and Assistant Head Coach - Jim Zorn
DC - Ray Rhodes
Holmgren will only come back if "His staff" is available...Holmgeen has the luxary of picking and choosing when he is going to come back.
Haskill he snagged up right away when he became President and gave him a job just to keep him away from other coaches.
Zorn is now available and can be brought here via giving him Assistant HC title.
Ray Rhodes will be no problem to get
As long as Holmgren has Haskill, Zorn, and Rhodes he is golden...those are his guys...all those guys will be available next year....if Holmgren fires Mangini quickly after the season is over before the CBA is settled, Holmgren is returning to the sidelines...which I think was the plan all along.
I will believe that until Holmgren flat out says otherwise..which he hasn't.
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I can't wait for this to all go away so you can quit pushing the Holmgren back to the sidelines. I doubt very seriously that's going to happen. As much as I love Mike Holmgren the coach if he were to come back it would only be for a short time then he would be retiring again. That isn't what this franchise needs.
At the same time I don't see him keeping Mangini. It's just my opinion but he only has 4 years on his contract and I can't see him wasting another year of that on EM. I think we will see him bring in his own guy. Someone that will run both a WCO and a switch to the 4-3 which he has come out and said he prefers.
I'm not saying it's the best scenario but I expect John Gruden as HC, Jim Zorn as OC and Ray Rhodes as the DC. It's just a hunch on my part but then so is everything everyone else is saying this time of year.
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When there is a coach who is in a dignified position, he is "Coach." Much like a priest is "Father" or a doctor is "Doctor." It's a sign of respect that I've been taught since I started playing football in middle school.
Even coaches who aren't your coach, are known as "Coach."
I'm just showing Coach the respect he deserves, especially given the insulting slang term that many bestow upon him.
Last edited by Ammo; 12/21/10 04:51 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
since the day he was signed as coach really too.
it'll end for this year in about 2 weeks though. i would doubt Holmgren would drag this thing out very long after the season. he'll either put his horses behind his HC or he'll find a new one.
Ok, hypothetically, say Mangini goes. I have no clue, no gut feeling. I would not be surprised if he is shown the door, and not surprised if he is not.
Anyway, say he does go. Who do you think the next HC for the Browns would be? Not necessarily who you want it to be, but who do you think it most likely would be?
how about a little of both? I expect it will be from the Holmgren coaching tree, however I have my favorites on it.
disclaimer: I think Mangini and staff have proven that they deserve one more year. this is purely theoretical posturing if Holmgren does let this staff go as has been reported by some Cleveland media folks.
HC: Steve Mariucci - He knows the Holmgren system and is best suited as a CEO style HC. He can smooth talk local media who will love him (especially compared with Butch, RAC, and Mangini before him) and he can focus on gameday decisions and general direction while allowing those below him to do the grunt-work.
Backup choice HC: John Fox - it would be much in the same way as Mangini was hired in though. Good coach fired for tough year, circumstances and we pickup the pieces. He's the same style coach as Mangini (rough and gruff). I like it, but usually teams switch up the style when they change the HC.
Just say no HC: Jon Gruden - I never liked him as a HC. He always came across as to ego-driven. Could just be the media portrayal of him, but he always irked me.
OC: Brad Childress - much like Marty Mornhinweg, I think Childress is better suited for OC than he is for HC. No chance at stealing Marty from Philly, so Chilly is the choice. I'd be a little concerned about his penchant for ignoring the running game, but that is true of any Holmgren tree coach.
Backup Choice OC: Jim Fassell - he's not afraid to use a running game. Not sure he still has the drive to do it (HC in UFL right now). If yes, then he could end up being a very nice fallback option.
Just say no OC: Jim Zorn - he always had Haskell and Holmgren in Seattle. He didn't do anything with Washington in his time there and Flacco hasn't seemed to have gotten much better with him at the QB-helm there. Not sure why so many like this guy as he hasn't proven it from what I have seen.
DC: Ugh....no 3-4 in the Bill Walsh tree. 4-3 switch means complete roster overhaul on that side of things. I'll copout on this one and say:
Rob Ryan - Holmgren grants Rob Ryan and staff another year even if he decides to part way with Mangini and the Offensive staff.
Backup Choice DC: Jack Del Rio - if the Jags continue to all apart, then he could be let go. Not much of a link between him and Holmgren (he's a Denny Green guy), but they all come under the same tree and there might be a connection. He'd be a good choice if we did have to go to a 4-3 though and he was the DC in Carolina back when they had a feared defense. It would seem only fitting that he continued the 'expansion NFL team' tour here in Cleveland.
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Just PLEASE no Marty Mornhinweg (or however you spell it).
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Mariucci?? haaaa... I couldn't even fathom him coming to Cleveland, but I wouldn't mind it I guess... He's not horrible.
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Quote:
Just PLEASE no Marty Mornhinweg (or however you spell it).
It'd have to be a promotion and since he's OC for Philly (and a very good one), then no, I would not want him either (he'd need to be HC and he was not good in that role).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Mariucci?? haaaa... I couldn't even fathom him coming to Cleveland, but I wouldn't mind it I guess... He's not horrible.
funny thing is, if that was the general response, it'd be a lot friendlier than what Mangini got 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Lunacy of Firing Mangini
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