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I just think its funny that we feel we can judge somebodys sincerity in their apology.. and its usually based on nothing more than whether we WANT to forgive them or not... Quote:
It seems Stallworth has truly learned and grown from his horrible, terrible mistake.
And Vick has not? How do you know that?
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Vick .... continued to lie until he was put into a corner and things were proven.
So did Bill Clinton.
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He ran an inter-state gambling ring. He fought dogs, tortured them and killed them. Continuously. Over and over again. For years. He paid other people to do it for him while he was busy playing football.
He went to court, was convicted, went to prison, was released, is now on a supervised parole... What more do you want from him?
yebat' Putin
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Remember DC is better to kill a man than kill a dog 
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Some people have lived very sheltered lives.
That's all I'm going to say in this thread.
Carry on.
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I agree DC. I'll quote my comment from above. Quote:
Maybe the issue here is how you view Mike Vick. Do you see him as a changed person? Do you see him as rehabilited? Do you view him as the Pro Bowl vote leading, MVP candidate, and guy that has spent lots of time trying to speak out against dog fighting.....or the same guy that killed and fought dogs?
I want to believe he's a changed man. I trust he's telling the truth right now.
Sure, there's a chance he hasn't learned anything, is only upset because he got caught, and is literally counting the seconds until he can get two dogs in a ring so he can get the rush of dog fighting again. But I think that's highly unlikely right now. Possible, yes.
IMO, he deserves a 2nd chance because he's paid his debt and has said all the right things.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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So now he is a sociopath?
This is a message board; we give opinions here, and that's mine. How would you characterize some of the things he's done?
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Why doesn't he deserve a second chance? He seems to be more humble and mellow ever since he got himself into that mess. I'd be in favor of having someone coming in to check in on the well being of the dog for the first year or so of ownership just to put everyone at ease.
We all make mistakes as humans. People can change.
I'm with the ladies on this. He doesn't deserve a second chance when it comes to owning animals. Anyone who takes pleasure in torturing animals should never be allowed to own them.
#gmstrong
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let him get a dog...
one and only one...
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Not to side track the conversation, as this is one of the few stimulating threads in the Tailgate section, but I have a genuine question.
Didn't he just bankroll the dogfighting operation? I think this is the case, and if it is, I have a picture in my head which doesn't include him doing (physically participating) in the evil things inherent in dogfighting operations (torture/killing, etc).
I'm in the group that says he was sentenced, did his time and is now back in society. Many will argue that his punishment was not sufficient, and I really can't argue with that except to say other star athletes have done much worse and received lesser punishments.
Trying to decipher whether or not he truly regrets what he's done is pretty much impossible, but all indicators available to the public seem to indicate that he is, indeed remorseful.
As for determining whether or not he is fit to care for a dog again, that is really tough. I would think that if he adopted a dog from a shelter that he would give that dog a better life than any alternative. I really don't have any better response than that.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
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let him get a dog...
one and only one...
To further that, if it were my decision to allow him to have one, I would dictate that it MUST come from a shelter. That way, not only is he allowed to own a dog, but by doing so, it could potentially be saving the life of one. It would also have to be more of a family dog and not a fighting breed since he brings up the importance of one to his family. As someone said earlier, there are plenty of large, gentle dog breeds out there.
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Quote:
I have a picture in my head which doesn't include him doing (physically participating) in the evil things inherent in dogfighting operations (torture/killing, etc).
He participated. Sports Illustrated article.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Just reading some of that is sickening. Truly sickening. I can't even begin to imagine witnessing it, let alone participating in it.
So Vick served his time in jail, therefore paying his debt to society. He got to play in the NFL again. Lucrative career. Great.
But no dog. Not now...not EVER.
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 I'm with you.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Oh but wait Michelle....wouldn't we be "punishing him even more" by not allowing him to have a dog? Waahhhh. 
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Quote:
Just reading some of that is sickening. Truly sickening. I can't even begin to imagine witnessing it, let alone participating in it.
So Vick served his time in jail, therefore paying his debt to society. He got to play in the NFL again. Lucrative career. Great.
But no dog. Not now...not EVER.
From what I read above, he will be able to get a dog in 2012 when his supervised parole ends..... I hope he gets one and treats it like a beloved family pet..... I really do.
Waaaaahhhh 
yebat' Putin
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My last word on this... And I hope, if he gets a dog and he ever hurts it that it kills him slowly and very, very painfully. Otherwise, I wish them both long and happy times together.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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My last word on this...
And I hope, if he gets a dog and he ever hurts it that it kills him slowly and very, very painfully.
Otherwise, I wish them both long and happy times together.
Finally something we can agree on.
yebat' Putin
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Just curious about something, how do you feel about bull fighting? I mean they basically torture and kill bulls for entertainment. Bull fighters do it because they need money. Should those people never be allowed to have animals? Now before you take the sarcastic response approach and use the typical and smiley realize that I hate michael vick for what he did too.
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From what I read above, he will be able to get a dog in 2012 when his supervised parole ends.....
Oh good, because his love of dogs is so obvious. He has the track record to prove it. He would make a great dog owner.
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Quote:
Just curious about something, how do you feel about bull fighting?
Hate it.
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Bull fighters do it because they need money.
That's no excuse.
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So bull fighters and the people who watch should not be allowed to have pets too.
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Bullfighting is not considered illegal in Spain and Mexico. Those countries have their own customs...there are a lot of customs of other countries that I don't agree with.
Dog fighting is not considered acceptable in this country. Dogs are supposed to be household pets...animals that are to be loved and cherished....not something to make a profit off of their torturous deaths.
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Quote:
Bullfighting is not considered illegal in Spain and Mexico. Those countries have their own customs...there are a lot of customs of other countries that I don't agree with.
Dog fighting is not considered acceptable in this country. Dogs are supposed to be household pets...animals that are to be loved and cherished....not something to make a profit off of their torturous deaths.
Thank you for pointing this out. There are countries where pigs and cows are held to the same standard as dogs are in america. However we pump them up and kill them.
If Vick did this is another country it would probably be no big deal. Well the gambling probably would have led to some trouble for him.
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I've changed my mind. he should be allowed to have a Pit Bull that has been rescued from dog fighting. If it turns on him oh well.
#gmstrong
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I just think its funny that we feel we can judge somebodys sincerity in their apology.. and its usually based on nothing more than whether we WANT to forgive them or not...
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It seems Stallworth has truly learned and grown from his horrible, terrible mistake.
And Vick has not? How do you know that?
I try to judge a man by his actions. It's hard because we often don't see the whole story, just the picture the media paints.
In the face of adversity, Stallworth pulled over, called 9-1-1 and tried to help a man that he ran over. He could have drove off and hoped noone caught his license plate, but he did not. He then went directly to the family and tried to do right by them. Was it merely to lighten his sentence? Perhaps, but then I was completely fooled by his interviews because he seemed extremely messed up by the whole thing and genuinely remorseful.
In the face of adversity, Vick lied. And lied, and lied. Until finally the fed's had enough evidence that he couldn't lie anymore, so he cut the best deal he could. I hope that Vick has rehabilitated himself and honestly don't care if he gets a dog as a pet.
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Vick .... continued to lie until he was put into a corner and things were proven.
So did Bill Clinton.
when did I ever say I forgave Bill Clinton? again, I try to judge a man by his actions and he's pretty much proven he's a snake. he hired some good people to work for him and some bad, but as a person, I wouldn't trust him.
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He ran an inter-state gambling ring. He fought dogs, tortured them and killed them. Continuously. Over and over again. For years. He paid other people to do it for him while he was busy playing football.
He went to court, was convicted, went to prison, was released, is now on a supervised parole... What more do you want from him?
I was shocked that Goodell didn't lengthen his suspension honestly. Not on the dog portion, but the gambling portion. Then again, the Steeler's have owners who run horse gambling institutions and the league's popularity is pretty much buoyed by Vegas and betting, so perhaps it shouldn't be that much of a surprise.
It's fine that he is in the league and he's served his punishment. But, that doesn't mean that I can't think he got off easy, that I think he's a snake, and that I would be really conflicted if I had to root for him.
#gmstrong
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Why? People drop off pets and leave them to the woods all the time but there isn't a zealous campaign against them. People drop off pets to the pound which is basically a death sentence no zealots there either.
He paid his debt to society as deemed by our legal system. If you think the laws were too forgiving lead a campaign to get them changed. However you cannot continue to punish a man for a crime that he has already paid for. Get over it.
You have a good argument,, but use on someone else,,, He hurt dogs,, got caught and I don't understand why he's back on the streets let alone why anyone would think it's OK for him to own a dog...
As for those that drop off dogs at a pound, It's NOT dog fighting.. Yes, they get put down in most cases after every effort is made to find them a home. But it's civilized.. not killed in a ring.. How can you even equate the two..
As for the people that drop them off in the woods, as far as I"m concerned,, they belong in jail just like Vick....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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Why? People drop off pets and leave them to the woods all the time but there isn't a zealous campaign against them. People drop off pets to the pound which is basically a death sentence no zealots there either.
He paid his debt to society as deemed by our legal system. If you think the laws were too forgiving lead a campaign to get them changed. However you cannot continue to punish a man for a crime that he has already paid for. Get over it.
You have a good argument,, but use on someone else,,,
He's got a VERY good argument. Don't discount it.
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He hurt dogs,, got caught and I don't understand why he's back on the streets let alone why anyone would think it's OK for him to own a dog...
He's back on the streets because he served the sentence our justice system gave him. Fairly simple concept to understand.
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As for those that drop off dogs at a pound, It's NOT dog fighting.. Yes, they get put down in most cases after every effort is made to find them a home. But it's civilized.. not killed in a ring.. How can you even equate the two..
Most fighting dogs are not killed in the ring. The fight is over when a dog refuses to engage the other dog. (please note I got that from the article from S.I. someone linked to. I've never seen a dog fight, and never will)
I'm not defending Vick at all, okay? I'd love nothing more than for him to be out of football really.
But he did the crime, he did the time. According to someone on here, the court said after 2012 he could own a dog again. So be it.
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On another note, Ben Roethlisburger wants to get some young college girls to help with his own rehabilitation.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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jc...
Just a couple general musings that came to me from reading this thread...
I wonder how many of those who feel so strongly against this feel about factory farming and hunting for sport (by which I mean hunting without the intention of using all or most of what can be gleaned from the animal).
I wonder what they would prefer a dog to have...adopted and leading a happy life in the home of a reformed (by all accounts) animal abuser, or euthanized in a shelter.
Also, bear in mind that his "lucrative" contract ($1.6 million) is in large part going to his many creditors, as Vick is bankrupt and owes tens of millions of dollars.
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I gave my opinion,, I'm sticking to it.. what you say has merit,, but frankly scarlet, I don't give a damn..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Bullfighting is not considered illegal in Spain and Mexico. Those countries have their own customs...there are a lot of customs of other countries that I don't agree with.
Dog fighting is not considered acceptable in this country. Dogs are supposed to be household pets...animals that are to be loved and cherished....not something to make a profit off of their torturous deaths.
Thank you for pointing this out. There are countries where pigs and cows are held to the same standard as dogs are in america. However we pump them up and kill them.
If Vick did this is another country it would probably be no big deal. Well the gambling probably would have led to some trouble for him.
And your point is?
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I'm with you Daman, God help me.
The people who will so easily forgive someone who maliciously tortured dogs do not feel about them the way I do. To have to bring children in to this or show how much more a human life is worth than a dog is meaningless. What he did was hideous, some people feel the need to make it less than that for some reason....and they need to not only equate children to dogs but insects to dogs. Wow.
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hey jules, this such a hard thing to weigh in on because i know noone feels the way i do...my opinion is much the same as loki...i dont mean to offend you and i hope you value and appreciate the thought. I find the most interesting thing about the Mike Vick saga not to be the actions of Mike Vick, but the anger and controversy he stirred. Here is why I feel that way, many many people are offended by Mike Vick and the manner in which he treated dogs. I personally believe there are much worse things many of us do to animals and the environment every day. But dont take my word for it...take theirs http://www.ted.com/talks/birke_baehr_what_s_wrong_with_our_food_system.htmlhttp://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/barbara_block_tagging_tuna_in_the_deep_ocean.htmlWe all know America is hypocritical in many ways....but really the Mike Vick saga doesnt offend me but the ire of middle america does.... its hypocritical.
Last edited by captainphil; 12/17/10 12:38 AM.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/captainphil/browns bills sig 5.jpg) When it gets cold and snows and the wind blows, you gotta be able to run the ball. - TR
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Quote:
Quote:
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Bullfighting is not considered illegal in Spain and Mexico. Those countries have their own customs...there are a lot of customs of other countries that I don't agree with.
Dog fighting is not considered acceptable in this country. Dogs are supposed to be household pets...animals that are to be loved and cherished....not something to make a profit off of their torturous deaths.
Thank you for pointing this out. There are countries where pigs and cows are held to the same standard as dogs are in america. However we pump them up and kill them.
If Vick did this is another country it would probably be no big deal. Well the gambling probably would have led to some trouble for him.
And your point is?
I am merely stating facts because people fascinate me. I'm not trying to be devil advocatish, contrary to what you or others may think.
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I don't have a problem with it.. if he's smart he would make the personal decision to stay away from the traditional fighting breeds.. Doesn't mean he has to get a lap dog, he could get a retriever or a bigger dog if he wanted.
I don't have a problem with it either, considering he's done his time and paid his debt to society as deemed by our courts. Further punishment for him is unjust, imo.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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And some people see killers as killers, some don't. :shrug:
Look, for me, this isn't about equating dogs and children. This is about a man that tortured and killed dogs. Why anyone wants to let him have another dog is beyond me.
What if he isn't rehabilitated? Oh, that's right..."it's just a dog".
Do you honestly think any dog Mike Vick will ever potentially own will not live like a king/queen? If he even so much as swats a dog on the nose with a newspaper for peeing on the rug, every ounce of effort he has put in to change his life will be for nothing (and it has been a LOT of effort). It will be in every news outlet, on every tv and in every paper and he'll never throw another pass or make millions ever again.
The next dog Mike Vick gets will be the luckiest dog who ever lived.
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And, yes, if not allowing him to own another dog is "punishment" then I am still punishing him. Personally, I think it only right that he be banned from dog ownership for life. He will live without another dog, but will another dog live with him? Not a risk I'm willing to take.
Well, fortunately for Mike Vick and everyone else who has ever made a mistake, the courts get to make that decision and not any of us. If they ruled he can't ever have another dog, then he has to abide by that or face the consequences. I don't believe they made any such ruling, but I could be wrong.
And also, I can't say if his comment about him feeling awful about his children not being allowed to have a dog because of him is genuine or not, but I know if it were me in his shoes, I'd feel like the scum of the earth every time my daughter asked me for one and I had to say no. It's not inconceivable that he really does feel horrible about it.
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Your opinion doesn't offend me. I disagree with you completely. I find your type of thinking really puzzling. So, because other bad things happen, which plently of people fight against and are concerned about, another bad thing is no big deal. I don't understand your reasoning and I'm quite sure you don't understand mine. We will leave it at that.
The ire of middle America? That's amusing and telling about how you probably reach a lot of your opinion. It struck people who have compassion and human decency. It's not quite as sinister as you make it out to be.
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And also, I can't say if his comment about him feeling awful about his children not being allowed to have a dog because of him is genuine or not, but I know if it were me in his shoes, I'd feel like the scum of the earth every time my daughter asked me for one and I had to say no.
Perhaps Mr. Vick should have thought about his children when he was having electric shock applied to dogs' testicles.
Look, if he is legally allowed because there were no stipulations by the court with his release, it doesn't matter what any of us think. He can get a dog. It doesn't mean people can't have an opinion about it or that some people have to like it.
There are plenty of people who have done their time and are free to return to society. It does not mean that they will be embraced by the world when they do. There are consequences to actions, and those consequences are not only legal.
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I'm with you Daman, God help me.
STOP THE PRESSES.. Jules agrees with something I said 
Hmm,, God may need to help you 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I wonder how many of those who feel so strongly against this feel about factory farming and hunting for sport (by which I mean hunting without the intention of using all or most of what can be gleaned from the animal).
I am not against hunting if the hunted animals remains are used, such as the meat from deer. I do not believe any animal should be killed just for sport. The only exception I can think of is when population control is a necessity for the health of the species or of their prey.
However, I do not equate hunting with torture, which is what dog fighters do to the animals in order to get them to fight.
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I wonder what they would prefer a dog to have...adopted and leading a happy life in the home of a reformed (by all accounts) animal abuser, or euthanize in a shelter.
We do not know that Vick is reformed or not. Yes he served his time and says he now knows what he did was wrong but that doesn't mean it is true in my mind. I also feel the same way towards people who own puppy mills or just neglect their own dogs.
While euthanasia seems like a cruel end for an animal it is far more humane then allowing animals to die of abuse or neglect.
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Also, bear in mind that his "lucrative" contract ($1.6 million) is in large part going to his many creditors, as Vick is bankrupt and owes tens of millions of dollars.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything. Owning a dog has nothing to do with his career. I never thought that he should have been banned from playing football, or any other job that doesn't involve taking care of animals.
#gmstrong
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Why do you guys make excuses for him? It's not like he got frustrated once and hit his dog....he TORTURED them to death. ON PURPOSE.
I certainly hope they wouldn't give children back to parents that tortured them, just as I hope they never let this ass own another animal.
I gotta go with you there. I think you know I'm not "letting it fly" in regards to my feelings on the matter.
Why? Because I'm extremly bias when it comes to Pits, his actions and how it's the actions of people who give this woderful breed such a bad name. But your point is quite valid.
And Christy's
If you torture and kill children, I doubt you would ever get a chance at raising or having children in your control again. I can't argue with that logic.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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