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the disconnect between Holmgren and the coaching staff is palpable.
Read that carefully. He didn't say Mangini, he said the coaching staff. That could very easily mean Daboll and the offensive staff side of things. Which I could easily see.
I've seen Grossi a little on TV and read some of his stuff and I don't get the sense that he is anti-Mangini. I believe he has his opinions like everyone else and they change from week to week. I see nothing wrong with that.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Agreed... Otto brought up a good point about the fact that Tony was referring to the interaction of the Coaching staff and MH but the question that Tony was asked to answer was directed at the relationship between MH and EM... Guess we will find out in a few weeks... All I know is that as much of a fan you were of Crennel, I am every bit that with Mangini... Ultimately I want to win like everyone else but must say that this is the first in 11 years where I have some hope when I watch on Sundays... Hell to be honest with you Daman this is truly the first year where I wasn't calling for us to tank our record so we could get higher draft position... 
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I am usually pretty good at reading people and I havent seen or heard anything from Holmgren that says he has the least bit of negative feelings towards Mangini. My personal take is that Mike has a ton of respect for the way Mangini wants to do things. The discipline, the high character guys, the toughness is things that Mike likes about Mangini and it is obvious.
That doesnt mean that he isn't looking at other captains to drive the boat but I think he really does have a lot of respect for Mangini.
I think Mike is a fan of Rob Ryan and the different style of defense he brings to the table. He lights up when discussing all the movement and never knowing what is coming. Its like a kid talking about his new favorite toy.
When asked about the offense, his facial expression says it all. You would think the grim reaper has entered the room. Can you imagine how he felt after the jags game? These last 4 weeks has likely sealed the fate of the O staff, the only question is has Daboll and crew sealed the fate of Mangini as well?
We will know in 3 weeks.
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Excellent summation Mourg.
Couldn't have said it better.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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X's 2
The question is if EM will take the loyalty route vs. what is best for the team approach...
If he takes the latter then I truly feel it is safe to say that all of the "same page one direction" mantra they talk about in the interviews holds some true merit rather than media fluff...
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Agreed...
Otto brought up a good point about the fact that Tony was referring to the interaction of the Coaching staff and MH but the question that Tony was asked to answer was directed at the relationship between MH and EM...
Guess we will find out in a few weeks...
All I know is that as much of a fan you were of Crennel, I am every bit that with Mangini... Ultimately I want to win like everyone else but must say that this is the first in 11 years where I have some hope when I watch on Sundays...
Hell to be honest with you Daman this is truly the first year where I wasn't calling for us to tank our record so we could get higher draft position...
LOL I hear ya on the tanking thing..
I wasn't that big a fan of RAC,, but I was a BIG fan of consistency. I know it may have come out as me being a fan of RAC however so I can see why you would say that. On a personal level, I thought that RAC was a good, hard working, smart coach. But in the end, I wondered about his ability as a HC.
One thing for sure, savage didn't help matters much. I was totally taken in by Savage.. I feel violated 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I was one that thought cRAC was the kind of guy you would have as God Father to your children... Wore his heart on his sleeve and just a genuine good guy... Just didn't see much upstairs based on his product... NEVER disliked the guy but hated the coach if that makes any sense... As for Savage... I still wonder how I got so duped... I guess when you have years of talent failures on your team and then you snag a dude with Savage's resume from a team that hits every year in the draft, you take the bait, hook and all 500 yds of line out to sea... I got had on that one as well... 
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This kid has an energy that neither Del or Wallace has...He can CREATE...And when he does...It's EXCITING...It gets the adrenaline flowing..And it for sure reverberates into and thru the entire team...O and D...
Thank you for agreeing with the very premise of the thread as I see it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I was one that thought cRAC was the kind of guy you would have as God Father to your children... Wore his heart on his sleeve and just a genuine good guy... Just didn't see much upstairs based on his product... NEVER disliked the guy but hated the coach if that makes any sense...
As for Savage... I still wonder how I got so duped... I guess when you have years of talent failures on your team and then you snag a dude with Savage's resume from a team that hits every year in the draft, you take the bait, hook and all 500 yds of line out to sea... I got had on that one as well...
Proving once again, resumes don't mean much
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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palpable or palatable?
I think he meant Vince Palpable. 
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
palpable or palatable?
I think he meant Vince Palpable.
Is that the guy who owns the WWF?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Actually I was shooting for a Vince Papale reference.
#GMSTRONG
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Pit, allow me to put some numbers behind all of this "feeling" about Colt McCoy... I think almost everybody (except Django) feels like Colt gives us the best chance to win.. First, let's eliminate Jake from the discussion.... the Browns have scored an average of 14.3 ppg with Jake starting, we've scored an average of 3.3 ppg in the second half... y'all read that right, we are barely averaging a FG in the second half when Jake starts.. (11 in the first half and 3.3 in the second)... Jake is averaging 1.5 ppg in the 4th quarter (2 FGs)..... His QB rating is an embarrasing 63.4 and the teams Jake has started against have a winning percentage of .375... statistically, he is not even in the conversation. Wallace.. we are averaging 16 ppg but we are giving up 20, which is more than either of the other 2 by a fairly wide margin... He's doing a little better averaging 5 ppg in the second half but just 1.8 ppg in the 4th quarter... When you're record as a starter is 1-3 with a number of close losses, part of it might be because you are averaging less than 2 ppg in the 4th quarter.. (In fact we have scored 1 TD in the 4th quarter in his starts)  His QB rating is a respectable 88.5 and his competition has been good with a winning percentage of .548... Now, why do we all feel more comfortable with Colt? He is the only QB with a better avg points for than against.. He leads the team with an average ppg of 18.5.. while we are giving up just 16.2. He is averaging 8.5 ppg in the 4th quarter.. the 3rd quarter is his bad qtr, averaging just 1.2 ppg (to be fair, Jake avgs 1.8 and Wallace 3.3).. He has done all of this with the highest QB rating, 93.0 against the toughest schedule, .627 winning percentage... So why do we feel more comfortable with Colt? Because we score more points, we give up fewer points, he has the best QB rating, his scoring is more balanced throughout the game, and he gives us WAY more 4th quarter umph than either of the other two... truth be told, I think that is the big one.. that he is averaging better than a TD per game in the 4th quarter while the other two are averaging less than a FG per game.... So why isn't our record better with Colt? Negative plays.. Jake has been sacked 6 times, Wallace 6 times, Colt 19 times... I don't think it's the OL playing different, I think it's just Colt figuring out how to adjust the play and the blocking scheme and learning when to get rid of the ball, which is really the ONLY area that the vets seem to have one up on him.... then again he HAS played the best defenses on our schedule too... 3 or 4 sacks per game is killing drives and we aren't good enough (with any QB) to overcome big negative plays yet...... So that's it by the numbers..
yebat' Putin
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I was kind of disappointed in Colt today.
Several head scratching throws early and a terrible deep ball.
However, I am still holding out hope that he is the guy, and I think he can be. I'm excited about seeing him after an offseason to digest and get stronger.
I don't think QB is a big need.
But I did see today that Colt still has a lot of work to do.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Quote:
I was kind of disappointed in Colt today.
Several head scratching throws early and a terrible deep ball.
However, I am still holding out hope that he is the guy, and I think he can be. I'm excited about seeing him after an offseason to digest and get stronger.
I don't think QB is a big need.
But I did see today that Colt still has a lot of work to do.
QB ISN'T A NEED...
He looked good again today...He's got everything u want...
Now it's time to fly with him and take the offseason to teach even more...He will have seen some of the BEST defenses this league has to offer by the end of the season...
Go get him a bonafide WEAPON...Mo & Robo are fine 2 and 3's...An OLmen...And get Hardesty back...
And while you're at it Heckert...Get us a damn Front 3 worth a damn...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
I was kind of disappointed in Colt today.
Several head scratching throws early and a terrible deep ball.
However, I am still holding out hope that he is the guy, and I think he can be. I'm excited about seeing him after an offseason to digest and get stronger.
I don't think QB is a big need.
But I did see today that Colt still has a lot of work to do.
Geesh Rish,, what do you want out of a Rookie 3rd pick on a team with almost no threats at WR... Thank goodness for Watson and Robo yesterday.. Oh and Royal. But that's unusual (except for Watson of course)
Yesterdays game left me a little bitter.. but Colts performance was pretty good. I mean, every QB throws the occasional head scratcher.. so I'm not sure that's a really big deal...
The Oline left me still thinking that the Right side needs mucho upgrades. and the D wasn't our friend yesterday...
But Colt was pretty damn decent. I really like this kid..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c
I'm hoping that Holmgren can develop McCoy into a decent QB, but MH does have some work to do.
...especially after seeing McCoy's deep throws yesterday.
Either McCoy has never played in "Ohio weather" in Dec. or his arm is weaker than we thought. Most likely, it's a combination of both the cold weather and McCoy's arm strength that limited his ability to put much on this throws and accurately throw deep yesterday.
McCoy does not need a rocket arm to be successful in Cleveland, but his cold weather arm needs to improve...and I fully expect it to.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Regarding McCoy's deep throws yesterday - while I'd agree the pass to Cribbs was underthrown, the pass to Massaquoi was where it needed to be ... back shoulder, where Mass needs to make the catch. It looked like he lost it in the sun. All in all, I'm satisfied with McCoy's arm strength, and ecstatic with his accuracy.
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I would also say that the pass to Robiskie was right where it needed to be. Yes, the safety took a terrible angle, but if you rewatch the play, the worst thing that could've happened in that play was the Safety took the correct angle and would only be able to break up the pass. McCoy put it only where Robo could grab it (and he made a great catch).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Every part of me feels (FEELS being the keyword) that Colt is our future. But with only a handful of starts I'm not sure why.
I'm with you here. I think, for me at least, its because when he goes out there he looks the part. Not like Brady Quinn looked the part with his physique, but like he knows he can get the job done. It seems to have made fans have confidence in him, and if we can see it, I'm sure his teammates can see it as well.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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So why isn't our record better with Colt? Negative plays.. Jake has been sacked 6 times, Wallace 6 times, Colt 19 times... I don't think it's the OL playing different, I think it's just Colt figuring out how to adjust the play and the blocking scheme and learning when to get rid of the ball, which is really the ONLY area that the vets seem to have one up on him.... then again he HAS played the best defenses on our schedule too... 3 or 4 sacks per game is killing drives and we aren't good enough (with any QB) to overcome big negative plays yet......
I think Colt throws the ball away as needed in most cases. The sacks seem (to my memory recalling them) the vast majority of the time our OL is getting blown up quickly. Collapsing.
There have been some cases (and the announcers mentioned it against Cincy) in college Colt could outrun a lot of the DEs/LBers chasing him whereas at this level most players have the speed to catch him and he's gotta account for this.
Other than that I agree with your numbers analogy.
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...and now take away those 3 D-TDs Colt got handed (2x NO, 1 vs JAX) and look at the numbers again....it's a wash between him and Wallace and since he's a rookie it's "ok" you develop him...but I still think Wallace was the best shot to WIN NOW....I would have no problem if little stuff like this, bad clock management (cost potentially 3p in a 2p game) and mobbing away important depth (Harrison) ends up costing Mangini his job because he lost himself 1-2 games because of it...in fact, it would be funny...and so fitting with his outsmarting antics
That said, with all 3 of our QBs we'd have bottom 3rd production
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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That said, with all 3 of our QBs we'd have bottom 3rd production
and yet we're not in the top 1/2 of the league...this is REALLY HARD to figure out. 
JAX, KC, TB, which everyone likes to point to as teams with = talent. hmmm, what sort of QB play are each of those teams getting?...us? i don't understand the need to overcomplicate this team's current lack of success.
Browns fans are born with it...
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Did we lose to CIN and JAX because of McCoy? While not great, he was good enough to win with in both games...was Gerrard better that day with his what? 3?4? INTs? or Palmer with his 40 hand offs?
Did we lose to TB and KC because of the pick-6s? No, we still had the lead after both of them....
The only common demoninator in all those games was crappy 2nd H adjustments and coming out flat/scared/uninspired out of the half....and that's on the Coaches or are you really gonna tell me that the same players that executed plays in the 1st half of those games somehow forgot to do it in the 2nd? It's much more "likely" (I'd say pretty definitely) that those same payers were put in a worse position to succeed than their opposition
Just look at our 3rd Qtr stats...that tells the whole story
#gmstrong
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Earth to Dj........................ This isn't a Mangini thread. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Earth to Dj........................
This isn't a Mangini thread.
Will be soon.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Earth to Dj........................
This isn't a Mangini thread.
If Django posts in it, it will become one.. it's like he's on a personal crusade to get Mangini fired.. as if he had any pull or clout at all......
Anything,, and I mean anything that points in favor of Mangini, even in the slightest manner, HAS to be an excuse
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Man I wish we had Colt a couple years ago when we had the best OL in football along with BE Joe and K2. I watch this kid and i am just so freaking impressed. Also even though it hasn't resulted in wins, he has been lights out in crunch time. You can't teach that crunch time mentality and folks we got a deadly accurate QB that is showing signs of being a true clutch QB.
Speaking of OL man what has happened to this group. Steiny couldnt push an old lady out of the way right now. Womack sucks at RG and Womakc is horrible. Hell its starting to rub off on Joe and Mack. Everyone is coming in with the same philosophy bullrush the middle and speed rush St. Claire.
We got a real QB in Colt and I dont want this line to ruin him.
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...and now take away those 3 D-TDs Colt got handed (2x NO, 1 vs JAX) and look at the numbers again....
That sounds a lot like an excuse for Wallace.
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Dabol doesn't know how to use what he has for starters .. Steiny and Thomas are both very good pull blockers .. A few sweeps and a couple of student body left would help and utilize their strengths...
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...Wallace has thrown a pick-6 in each of his games. So do those balance out against TDs the D handed to Colt?
Trying to use Django's logic is making my head hurt.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Quote:
...and now take away those 3 D-TDs Colt got handed (2x NO, 1 vs JAX) and look at the numbers again....
That sounds a lot like an excuse for Wallace.
Typical,, to make his point, Django either has to add something in or take something away.. otherwise, his points don't make sense..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Earth to Dj........................
This isn't a Mangini thread.
Thanks for proving my point by not even trying to refuse it...which would be impossible to begin with.
Not turning this into a EM thread, just refuting a "point" made by dnadawg, who said we are where we are because of QB play...but we didn't lose the games to those teams because of the direct QB-comparison on gameday, some of them played even worse than our QB when they faced us
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Quote:
...and now take away those 3 D-TDs Colt got handed (2x NO, 1 vs JAX) and look at the numbers again....
That sounds a lot like an excuse for Wallace.
No, it's only fair to point out since neither McCoy nor Wallace can influence those TOs...
oh and Wallace's pick-6s are already implemented into DC's posted stats and they count...so what's the point there?
#gmstrong
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..and I can't believe you can still post BS like this, without having proved it although asked to do so by me time and time again...and not get banned...if "name calling" is a defamation, then what's this? just a nasty habit? If that's allowed can I just make stuff up about any poster and post it as long as I don't "name call"? Cool...
Oh ,and btw..you just got caught not thinking (surprise) in you last post again....you jumped too early on the Wallace non-point my dearest stalker, lol
#gmstrong
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Earth to Dj........................
This isn't a Mangini thread.
Go Browns!!!
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DJANGO...
i mentioned nothing of head-to-head play, just happened to mention teams that have had some success this year which we also happened to have played.
we absolutely have similar talent (between the sidelines and on them) to do as well as these other teams. what we have lacked is consistent QB play, and that is the main reason for our lack of success. it has been a rule proven true over and over again in the league. are there exceptions in which a winning team has bad QB play? yes, but few and far between, and thus exceptions proving the rule.
and this is not a knock on McCoy. he's been darn good in his first few starts...but between the other QBs, McCoy's inexperience, and his injury, we have not established any CONSISTENT QB play. when that happens, the HC presiding at the time will be hailed as a winner. until then, the HC will be considered a loser.
Browns fans are born with it...
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Regarding McCoy's deep throws yesterday - while I'd agree the pass to Cribbs was underthrown, the pass to Massaquoi was where it needed to be ... back shoulder, where Mass needs to make the catch. It looked like he lost it in the sun. All in all, I'm satisfied with McCoy's arm strength, and ecstatic with his accuracy.
I felt like the pass to cribbs was deliberately under thrown because cribbs' man was ahead of him - the space to make the catch was underneath. I feel Cribbs made a poor adjustment coming back to the ball. If McCoy had thrown it for Cribbs to catch it in stride, it likely would have been picked because the defender had position.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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That's true and we agree that our QB play is below AVG for this season no matter who....but our problems run deeper imho...the 2nd H stats are too significant to be ignored and can't be excused away only with talent
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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