DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Lets take a deep breath...

OK everyone.....Breathe in....(Come on....do it....)

and slowly let it out......

one more time....and empty the thought process so we can get a clear mind and thought base to start with.....Breathe in...........

and slowly let it out.....

Now lets talk football.....
There is going to be alot of emotions piled on in the weeks to come and frankly we need to start to look at some things more objectively. Most people have Mangini already packed and moved out of his house already. That may be exactly what happens. But how much of this is a product of our own unrealistic expectations and perceptions? How much of it is real and deserved?

When this season started....alot of us on this board had some loftier goals than the national media. 8-8 was term that was widely tossed out. But the rest of the nation was looking at our roster and saying 3 wins at best. We cried and moaned about it. Then we lost a couple we thought we should have won....then those teams started to look better than we thought they were. and our shcedule just became worse. But we kept games close. We put Cincinnati into a downward spin and we surprised 2 of the best teams in the league....Did those wins expand the hubris of the fans too much? Possibly....as fans we look for what is possible and not what is probable...and with keeping games close and beating 2 great teams...I think our expectaions got out of whack.

I can't help but look at the starting lineup for the Cleveland Browns and wonder.....when comparing it to the other teams in the league, I am amazed at the difference in talent level. So a part of me has to ask whether or not these guys actually over achieved in some way to keep games as close as they did? We have no true playmakers aside from Peyton Hillis on either side of the Ball. You might make a case for Ben Watson. I think Ward, Haden and McCoy have potential....but they are not there yet...and Cribbs has been absent all year as has Rogers on D. Last year Cribbs was the only playmaker. Rubin has been solid but not a playmaker.

Take yesterdays game....Baltimores defense had Ngata, Lewis, & Reed, and Flacco, Boldin, Mason, & Rice on Offense. There seems to be a descrepency.

And yet without any playmakers....this team has been in just about every single game it has played. Including yesterdays. 7 losses this year by less than 7 points. And they have played the HARDEST SCHEDULE in the league this year.

Regardless of record...this team IS BETTER than last year. And they have done so with major injuries. Granted other teams have injuries...but they have a little bit better depth than we do.

BUT

That doesn't mean there are not things to be unhappy about. The way the team seems to play to their competition tells me that they are still learning HOW to be winners. They have won..and are learning to win...but they haven't learned how to be winners. They haven't gained the killer attitude or the knowhow to put the weaker teams away.

I am not conviced that Dabolls issues are completely personnell related. I mean lets give him the benefit fo the doubt for the sake of argument and say that it is personell related........The offensive playcalling seems disjointed. There never seems to be a flow to it. I don't know if that is on purpose because they think that will throw off the defense....but it is throwing off the offense. He does have some of the most imaginitive plays I have seen run on the football field...but there is no smoothness to the offense. I mean even if you have a POWER offense there is still going to be a smoothness to the playcalling....

To look at it another way...a dragster is all power...but it looks smooth going down the track....but if the driver is jerking the wheel and is going back and forth on the throttle like a see saw....It definitely won't look smooth going down the track. And it doesn't matter if it is a Top Fuel Dragster or a Toyota Corolla. And Dabol seems to have his foot playing like a seesaw and his hand turning the wheel like crazy so that the other side doesn't know what he is doing.....well it worked...we don't know what he is doing...but we are losing the race.....

The team has been an enigma this year. They have gone out and beaten down teams like the Patriots and the Saints...but lose to the Bills. The coaching staff is very stubborn on the outside. And it would be easier if we could understand why.

Why Jake Delhomme instead of Seneca Wallace when Colt was hurt? Why Haden not starting for so long?(although that was talked about eventually) In this day of the internet where everyone has to know everything....those types of things just add fuel to the bad feelings. While I would like to know those things too......I do have one thing to say on that......Would you expect Paul Brown to explain all of that to all of us or would you expect him to say because I said so and end the subject????

And yet this team....This team who starts Schaefering, Trusnick, Elam, StClaire, Robiskie and Massaquoi, and a bunch of other castoffs....made a lot of people take notice and made people respect this team. even if just to say that Cleveland is a TOUGH out....That you are in for a FIGHT when you play Cleveland.

Our Top players...guys like Fujita, Roth, Rubin, Ward, Haden, Mack, Steiny, Vickers, even possibly Thomas(only because of his position)....They would be the solid or core players for any other team....but not their top guys or their stars, or their playmakers....And yet.....with the toughest schedule in the league, we have taken 5 games with a shot at 6 and have been within a score away of 7 more....

I personally think the Browns are at a crossroads. I think they have at the very least built an identity of being a very tough team. In some ways I DO think they have over achieved. But in other ways they leave me scratching my head. I do see signs of some of the best coaching I have ever seen....and then I see signs of the team not being able to build off of the accomplishments from the week before.

Mangini is the one in charge. He for all tense and purposes gave us this roster of non playmakers(not to say that he and Heckert will not bring playmakers to this team....I think they needed to settle the core first...which I think they did)......I like the discipline he has brought to the team. I like the type of player he has brought to the team and the players he and Heckert are bringing to this team. another draft like last year and WOW.....There is quite a bit that I like about Mangini and his team. But I am looking for that sign that tells me they are going to take that next step....

So far I am still looking for it.....

Yea.. I watched the Steelers and Panthers play and tried to compare just Sanders, Ward, Wallace and Miller to our group and realized we needed at least two more upgrades just in our WR core. We are STILL a long way off folks. The previous draft picks have set us back years..........
Add at least TWO nasty pass rushers, a RT, another corner or two, a couple heat seeking LB's that can actually tackle and then we are still a year or two away. Thats assuming we actually have a QB in COLT. Otherwise, we are still years away.

That accomplishment would make him the best head coach we've had in, what, 20 years?

Based on talent alone, most here figured 5-6 wins this year, with some improvement visible. IMO we got that.

Also IMO, give us a year's experience for Colt, Haden, and Ward, add in just ONE WR anywhere in the Top 20, a slightly less killer schedule, and we are in the hunt till the last game. Add a beast linebacker and a healthy Hardesty and we win some in January.

I believe the "team first" concept being built here will pay dividends for years to come. IMO some of the players released or not played were not fully bought in to this concept. (Wallace, Harrison). Others have significant holes in their game, like Moore's lack of blocking skill.

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Talent, depth, playmakers, SOS, injuries...is this the excuses thread v.1.9.9?

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So you are saying none of those things matter? Is that what your saying?

If so, you are saying a team can win without Talent, without depth, without Playmakers. SOS doesn't matter and injuries don't count?


Is that really what you are saying?

Pete i like where your head is at...and i think there are a number of answers to he questions that people have asked around here...

When looking at why Delhomme over Seneca...His limited effectiveness sure has hurt that argument. But...you have a QB who is a multi-year veteran, consumate pro, multi-year starter (and thats where the debate rests), NFC Championship winning QB in Delhomme...and a QB who has started 14 games with a losing record and a 88 QB rating...it was a leadership thing. While its a bummer that Seneca played better than he has in the past...if you look at te handling of the starting spots it shows me why delhomme was the better choice for the team. When Delhomme was benched in favor of Colt 2 weeks ago, he didnt say a thing, and were he asked, im sure he would say the rookie stepped up and im happy fr him...because hes a stand up guy. Seneca Wallac on the other hand has seemingly pouted over the whole thing saying "well its the coaches decision, you ask him" which is another way for saying this is BS i dont get it i should be starting.
With the knowledge that this team is in need of leaders and playmakers...delhomme was a better fit because as a qb he lets his players make plays and it would show where we needed more talent.
Wallace is a playmaker himself, and wat he does can overshadow or hide deficiencies which could win us more games (well...maybe 1 more game)...but, still not get us to the playoffs.

Looking at Brian Daboll...i think the guy should not be an OC here next year. i agree our playcalling is disjonted...but he calls plays like hes playing madden. i think he has a rhythm of having no rhythm. I get so annoyed seeing us go handoff shotgun shotgun. playaction of 1st down only and nothing of value.
Iknow we are lacking playmakers on offense...bu if you lack playmakers, you should be using plays that help an offense. Why dont we run any slants? why havent we run a draw play from under center? why no end arounds with Mitchell when he was active?
We run some amazing trick plays...but thats where it stops...how many times this year have we seen a play and went...wow....what a great play call on a simple play? a play that was needed at that time...i cant remember one.
We should be looking into a new OC and there is a good one on the market in the form of Josh McDaniels, and one in our office in the form of Gil Haskell, and there are others around (jimmy frye hahaha, just kidding), or even if a guy like Norv Turner gets let go from SD...hes always been agood play caller.


defensively...i cant tell if our issues stem from scheme or talent...our zones are beyond bad. our man to man coverage is decent (well...from 23, and sheldon brown is always very close but just burned with no safety help)...
it seems as though Rob Ryan doesnt understand good coverage schemes...hes good at mixing things up on a QB...but thats about it.
I think his success should be evaluated...especially wth a great DC on the market in the form of Wade Phillips (see KC's resurgence with Crennel)...

What i see from Eric Mangini is a coach who has built a very solid foundation...which is the best way todeveop steadiness...you cant build a hose by just throwing up walls and wires and roofing if theres nothing built to keep them up. Mangini did that in NY and wasnt allowed to see the fruits of his labor. He was close...had he had more control over Brett Favre (ya know being able to bench him) he may have had a playoff team that was ready to challenge for the title. He injected youth into a veteran roster as he has been doing here (ward, haden, mccoy (okay that was holmgren), hillis (he was going to be getting snaps from the start), hardesty, momass, robiskie, mack, as well as others...
Mangini (and whatever GM he is working with) likes to get solid but unspectacular veteran leaders in to build a solid foundation to allow the youngsters to thrive. Would haden be as effective without a guy like sheldon brown around? idk...would ward be as good without a guy like Elam around?

Would Trusnik and Roth have been as good without barton, bowens, fujita, and co around (furthermore...how has wimbley done since he left?)

Mangini has built asolid foundation...and once you have that you can bring in the talent...see philly with TO...see the Giants when they brough Eli in. And the Jets with Sanchez...they were ready...do you think a guy like Colt McCoy couldve come in and looked even remotely decent if he had a crennel roster? no...BE17 an KW2 wouldve destroyed the kid with demands for the ball and demonstrative behavior and whatnot...

Yes he's made some blunders...and that comes with he job...that comes with the experience...Mangini has gone from a blowhard belichick/mcdaniels to a more affable smart coach. he, for the first time, has taken his own approach to football, and hes taken a generally untalented, unremarkable roster and made them competitive. made them play like a team that can on any week (without a worn down hillis) blow out the New Orleans Saints and New England Patriots. two of the best teams in football, and have bad days and beat the Miami Dolphins, Cincinnati Bengals, and take the Jets to overtime.


what needs t be looked at heavily....


is...should Brian Daboll be replaced (yes)
should Rob Ryan be replaced (id say only for Wade Phillips)
should mangini be replaced (no...let him see the fruits of his foundation labor...if crennel can get 5...mangini should be given a 3rd)


We've seen the building of a team...look at the way thingsare going around the league. Raheem Morris, Todd Haley (the two high end examples), Steve Spanuolo, Jim Schwartz (the only other coach to start 3 QBs this year and get wins...though im not sure stafford actually won a game this year) and Singletary.

All of them, and ohers im sure, have been given jobs in the last few years...and singletary is one of the few who flamed out (childress, mcdaniels, shanahan (hes on his way)), but the others...came in and established a mentality. childress and singletary dicked around with QBs and fell apart...mangini didnt this year...injuries did...but he stuck to his guns...delhomme is our guy til he proves he shouldnt be...and then e went to the rookie...thats how its supposed to work.

McCoy is our guy going forward...and i wanna see what mangini and his staff can do with a QB who is actually worth his salt, and tailor a system around him and see how it goes. McCoy is a winner...and with Hardesty as a compliment to Hillis they can both use each other to not wear down...and mack and byner can be reborn...and so can kosar.

i kinda see 12, 40, and 29...are similar to 19, 34, and 44. that was our best combo since otto...and it can be back. Now if we can develop some wideouts...we will be dangerous...OR...establish a smashmouth system that even if you do load up..we can run on you...or use the pass effectivly enough to keep you back. Cmon Daboll...i feel like i could do a better job than you...get an identity for this team

I brought this up in the gameday thread, but I'll add it here as well.

I look at what Mangini is trying to build here, then look at teams like the Ravens and Steelers and see the finished result.

Mangini wants a team that plays defense from the opening kickoff to the finalplay of the game. He wants a team that is fundamentally sound on both sides of the ball. He wants to be able to run the ball consistently, and against anyone. He wants his QB to be effective, and not make the big mistakes. He wants a team that plays with intensity, yet limits mistakes. He wants a team that plays solid "every down" football, and takes advantage of big play opportunities when they present themselves.

That's a pretty good description of the Steelers and Ravens for much of the past decade.

Considering that those 2 teams have won the AFC North 9 times in the past 10 years, and have 4 Wildcard appearances to boot, it seem that this is a solid approach. (14 playoff appearances combined in 10 years) Those 2 teams have also won 3 of the last 11 Super Bowls.

I can see an argument either way regarding the fate of Brian Daboll. He's been limited as far as the talent he has to work with, yet hasn't really schemed away many weaknesses. (if such a thing can be done consistently) I do think that Mangini should be allowed to continue, and to build on the discipline and solid foundation that he has built here.

I agree with a lot of what you have to say and that is why I want Mangini to have one more year. Out of last years 11 losses how many were close games or games we were competitive in??

This year we have been in every game except probably the Pittsburgh game, and we had a rookie QB making his first start on the road. And it still wasn't a blow out.

There has been progress so far, it hasn't been transitioned into wins yet but there has been progress.

in addition...

i look at what mangini has done...and there has been improvement in the team since day 1.

We started out being hrrible against good teams and holding our own against bad teams.

thisyear...we held our own against goodteams (and until buffalo and cincy) beat bad team.

i look for progress...and next year...progress shold be evident. the thing about that it that progress for next year is winning games. winning a lions share of games...being in the playoff hunt until the very last game (regardless of schedule) and perhaps challenging (in) the playoffs. te Texans have stagnated, the titans are at a crossroads, the colts are fading, the jags are inconsistent, the chargers are fading (maybe?), the broncos suck, the dolphins are at a crossroads, the bengals are at a crossroads, the jets...i dont trust em, the pats, steelers, ravens, and chiefs are strong...the raiders, bills, and we are improving...

there are 5 teams...that i look at and think are in a better position than we are right now. the raiders could maybe be a 6th...the chargers maybe a 7th. and that is the point.

Mangini and his staff and holmgren and his staff have put us in a position, where we are poised to make a big step forward...with longevity. we arent primed for a big run and roster dump like davis did...or a surprise run behind a monster arm with no film on it like crennel did...but a sustained run behind a solid philosophy backed by players fitting that philosophy with talent. Why change it now?

is there a single player in this lockerroom that looks at mangini and thinks...this ist his team? that this isnt going to work? that...he'll just be gone soon enough so eh?

everyone believes in what is being established...theyre excited and happy to behere. we added a free agent who had just won a super bowl, players through trades who have been to several NFC campionships, won a super bowl, o had been to the playoffs...

we've been adding players who have been there who will lead our young talet.

everything is being done the right way...and it would be stupid to change i...the browns are building together. if mangini were to be fired...it would mean there is a weak link in the chain that they are putting together...i dont see holmgren doing it yet...i dont see the players wanting it...i dont see anything that says we need to fire this guy.

i think for a team this close...firingthe coach would relay a message to the team that just isnt stable. it isnt right...that whats been buildin is wrong...and that could dstabilize and perhaps fracture a lockerroom that appears very united...very stable, and very solid

There is no reason to retain Mangini. Holmgren comes from the philosophy of exposing your opponents weaknesses and attacking it. Mangini has the philosophy of covering all your weaknesses and make the fewest mistakes.

It just doesn't work long term. I thought maybe a change at OC would be the ticket but honestly they are just too different to coexist. Holmgren will get it right and take this team in his own direction. He knows talented coaches and he will field a terrific crew for the Browns.

They actually reported on ESPN radio this morning that Holmgren "could" be a candidate to coach in San Francisco.

I hate the media,...despicably.

Pete314, thanks for the dose of passion here. It rains negative bricks around here, and I have done my share, but tried to be objective. It is getting to be a Time of Reckoning. So having taken my breaths (Thanks, I needed that! er, those, or whatever), some others to consider as I see it. grew up with a coach, played for him, and had to live with the critics, a few were even fair. I am certain EM has a deep caring and commitment, and is probably more frustrated than the fans who share his world for a few hours. I believe what I was told: "Head coaches get too much credit for wins and they catch too much crap for losses." They are never excused from any part of the game they produce; they never get a pass. Some of the pounding Mangini gets here apparently assumes EM is a finished product, that he came out perfectly from the process of re-building the Browns yet again, with flawed pieces and no regard for the chaos injuries cause. His is not a perfect world. I don't see him as a playoff coach yet, and he has exposed some of his own glaring weaknesses and stubborn insistence on what does not work and allowing it to go forward.
If RAC rated the number of years we gave him, then EM deserves one more. I think it should come with any number of strings that MH and the FO believe are needed to eliminate the crap that cost us games. Because as painful as it was, we competed every game, and it is maddening to know that you were in games. I still believe four should have been won. He needs somebody at OC that can put up points. He needs some personnel that lets us have D that can get its fanny off the field. I feel his clock management has stunk at times; he is responsible for all sides of the ball and STs every game. These need tweaked further. He may need too swallow hard and change some of his thinking. I think he is bright enough to learn and man enough to acknowledge the obvious need. records do not lie. And I also believe that when he hears whatever terms are attached to his next season, he also should have the right to say no to the offer if he feels too compromised.
Holmgren told us at training camp in Berea to watch us get better as we progress through the Plan. He said there were no shortcuts. We needed players, depth, talent, some luck, and more heart from players to play harder. I think that has happened. I like the work ethic of EM, the attitude of the Hillis and Cribbs and Vickers and others. We need to be nastier and win more personnel battles; but we ARE doing better than say years past. I like the attitude and effort. My point I want to make is Mangini has been way too busy with bunches of crap beyond skill building and game prep, all of which dilute every coach's efforts. Looking at us, we need to work on some stuff, but I see much less junk now to distract going forward. He had a bunch of chemistry crap to clean up; I like the attitude and focus I saw in camp. I give him a bunch of credit that few here give him props for achieving. I also think if MH can help more than he seems to have done, Mangini has upside, if he can use others around him. Ryan needs help as well. But they seem to be going in the same direction in Berea.
This man has carried a lot of water. With four more wins we are in the hunt. A lot more of EM's product seems to be within reach than out of the question. The base is built or close; tossing him now seems to waste a lot of good momentum over the last few coaches IMO. Give him a chance to achieve, and some tools. A fairer shake seems in order to me before he is shown the door.

It's been ten seasons ..I'm Waiting to exhale !

Just a few thoughts that are semi-related to the main topic here......

I've seen it written several times that Mangini or Dabol deserve another year. Honestly, all they deserve is an honest audience with MH at the end of the season.

In this league you get what you earn. At 10-21 (at this point and probably 10-22 at this time next week) I don't think I'd march into Mike Holmgren's office thinking I deserve anything other than an honest evaluation of my performance.

I also don't think it's reasonable to say that since many (on here) expected better than 5-11 but the "experts" said 3-13 that we should consider the team somehow better than last year. Pundits are wrong all the time. So are we. That means results are what really count. This year's results indicate that the team stinks. Or at the very least are gigantic underachievers. Neither picture is very pretty.

I think it's fair to put the lion's share of the blame on the coaching staff. Injuries have played a part, to be sure, but every good team overcomes injuries. Using injuries as an excuse for overall poor performance is just lame (pun semi-intended). The team's (mostly terrible) second half performances in almost every game point to the staff's failure on a weekly basis. The fact that we play "not to lose" rather than to win is also an indictment of Mangini's style.

Mangini may keep his job. He may not. I can live with either decision. I have enough faith in Holmgren to assume he'll make the correct choices. So should all of you.

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Mike Holmgren has to be disgusted by the offense we've put out there this year.

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You mean Jake, Seneca & the rookie? Or do you mean Hillis?

Im watching other games....Thinking to myself...you know... we could of had him at pick 6 or 10 or whatever number... I tell myself...we might be one heck of a team with some of the talent we passed on... or maybe not...

But I do know I would have loved to had Clay matthews jr in a Browns uni...

I`ve taken many of deep breaths Pete...Guess they saved my life...Hell Im able to watch next weeks game....

I really don't think Mike Holmgren wants to can Mangini...in fact he was hoping Eric would work out this year, do better next year, so Mike could sign him to an extension and then leave to coach another team before he retires altogether.

However at this point...I don't think Eric is giving Mike much of a choice....you have to remember...Holmgren has a boss too...Lerner was ticked off last year and he hired Holmgren to fix this mess...so now we have the same result.

If you payed a man million of dollars to run your company and you get the same net loss numbers you had last year...how would you as a shareholder feel about that at the next board of directors meeting?

Lerner has some say in this matter too....

Lerner may walk up to Mike and say "Hey Mike, I thought we would be a little better then this...we got the same record as last year...what is going on here...i got season ticket holders to answer to on this"

Im sure this conversation between Holmgren and Lerner has already occured...im not saying Randy is nudging Holmgren, but it is a coversation nonetheless...

in other words, I don't think Holmgren will have much of a choice....Holmgren don't have 5 years to sit around and hope Eric figures things out.

when push comes to shove, guys like Holmgren is going to go to what he knows, and that is WCO...and it will either be him hiring himself, or hiring one of his proteges like Gruden, Mooch, or someone from that tree....Holmgren don't have 2 more years to sit around and hope Eric figures this whole thing out.

I personally wouldn't mind if Eric gets 1 more year and another shot, but Holmgren may not feel he has that kind of time to gamble and hoipe Eric figures it out...Eric doesn't have a good track record of figuring things out....Rex ryan is winning with his team when Eric couldn't...so i really don't know.

If Eric survives, he better go find the Lady Luck Statue and give it a big kiss on the cheek because sheer luck is what its going to take...Holmgren is not going to be patient with a system that is foreign to him...if Holmgren feels he can fix this team faster with a WCO philosophy thats the route he will go.

agreed, regardless we just gotta trust Holmgren on this whole thing....regardless if he decides to keep Eric Mangini or go in another direction, we gotta trust he will make the right choice for us.

For anyone that actually thinks Holmgren is leaving to go coach another team, I think you're nuts.

That's not going to happen. I'll bet my house on it.

Ok, here's an outsiders view on your team. I think they are much improved but I dont know if they're improved for the long haul..

QB-Colt McCoy is a competitor. I dont think they need to hang on to Delhomme. Wallace is more than serviceable back up..Draft a big armed QB who could develop in case Colt falters.

RB-Hillis is way good, but his style doesnt' lend itself to longevity. Bell is a decent back up but I think they need a tweener power/speed back. But there shoud be no rush on that.

TE-Your TE's are fine..They play there role very well

WR's - if you will stick with Colt you need big posession types and scat type receivers. Colt doesn't throw well deep. MoMass is gonna be decent but I think Robo could develop..You depth is sorely lacking though

O-Line- You are solid at 3 positions with bad depth. The other 2 are not what will lend itself to consistant success. A good veteran signing could be the answer.

D-Line..Rubin is decent- Who you have with him is a mystery. Yeah I know about Rogers but I dont think he wants to be there. With your 3-4 scheme you need some high motor big bodies..The draft is where I think you will build this

LB's- You have some journeymen..All are decent but you dont have anyone who provides the thump that LB's need..Free Agency might be your best bet

DB's-Haden and Wright could be future pro bowlers. Brown is a decent stop gap for now. Does your D-Backfield want to be aggressive or passive? That will determine what you are looking for in FA or the Draft. I think you guys may well be looking for the best available CB in the draft..Paired with Haden, you could have a foundation that allows for a lot of defensive freedom

Special Teams..Cribbs is not a full time WR..He needs to be able to concentrate on KR and PR..So I would not look for the team to waste anytime looking for another returner..

I shook my head in disbelief yesterday when I saw Ventrone and Sorensen on the field for our defense througout the game.

I like Ventrone and Sorensen as ST guys, but playing meaningful snaps for our defense? Come on.

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Depth and injuries are problems EVERY NFL team has....and we haven't worse depth as an AVG NFL team nor did we have more injuries...it's just whining....JAX played with half their OL out and their best WR out....that sure was a factor in their 6 (!!) TOs...they still scored 24p and won the game...and no, they don't have better depth

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Django, you know I seem to never agree with you, but this comment is spot on.
This team has some talent, no not as much as the big dogs do, but decent talent. The problem IMO is a coaching staff that doesn't coach to the players it has strengths.

I was pretty much willing to give Mangini another year, but over the last three weeks, the in game decisions that were made were inexcusable. I never quite understood when people said he "plays not to lose" but now I get it. I think he is absolutely so worried about mistakes, that it clouds his judgement. IMO I think he and Daboll think they are coaching NE, and it's roster. His disgusted looks I know drive you crazy, and at first they never bothered me. But I have come to see that he thinks that just because the team was coached during the week, that on game day his job is done.

The stripping down of the roster was something they preached from day one as not going to happen, but it did. My problem is that they did too much stripping all at once. The nail in the coffin for me was getting rid of both Davis and Harrison.

I believe Mangini has a good philosophy, but I really am starting to think he just doesn't know how to achieve it. Standing behind Daboll's inept coaching style has killed him in my eyes. At some point as a head coach, you must call someone out. It sounds great in the media when he spreads the blame to the whole team, but at some point you have to identify the problem and let people know what it is.

At first it was a three year plan, then somehow over the last two years it has become a 5 year plan. Holmgren also preached that they were trying to win now, then went into the season with out even trying to address the WR spot. So I hold him responsible also.

Who knows, maybe there was a plan to let Mangini hang himself. To me it appears that that was the plan. I find it funny that Holmgren made so little public appearances during the season, almost as if he was distancing himself from Eric.

In the end, I have soured greatly on Mangini, and it is not just because of the past two games. I have gone back and watched some of the first games of the year, and nothing has changed. The two big wins were flukes IMO. I didn't believe that then, but I do now. The success that Hillis had was stifled by a bad coaching staff. Instead of complimenting his play with an added passing game, these guys just worked him to death like a high school coach does to a star running back. This is the big leagues, how they could not expect teams to take away the only threat you use? Handcuffing the offense and QBs to running what amounts to about 4 different plays a game is parochial.

Daboll is a joke, and I firmly believe that even with a stacked hand he would still look clueless. Mangini seems to like his style, and for me that is becoming very clear. This league is tough, and unless you go for it all out, you will end up with a record like they achieved this year.

SOS, lack of talent, and injuries do have some bearing, but the lack of imagination, and a commitment to things that are failing over and over, show me that Mangini, Daboll, and to a certain extent Ryan, all have shortcomings.
I honestly now believe that the schemes on both sides of the ball, coupled with poor adjustments on both sides of the ball have cost this team more games than talent, injuries, or SOS.

I've said this in another thread awhile back, but it needs to be repeated here....Pete touched on it in his post.

We all heard MH back in the spring saying he expected to see improvement in the Team.....BUT, that did not mean that it would show up in the W/L column, He hoped that it would but that would not be the only thing he would look at......So far we HAVE seen improvement on this team, We have been in every game this year. Dawgs like Kof B saying we have NOT improved because the record is the same, just don't get it. ANYBODY who knows this Team, Knows that we have Improved at least twice as much as last year.

Isn't that the point? You have to take steps. We went from crawling, (last year), to walking (this year), to running (next year). Everybody was on board last spring, Yes, lets just make improvements, Now all of a sudden, we finally make some improvements and starting to look like a real Team & BAM, Let's fire the Coach!

I don't get it. EM has done everything he has said he was going to do.
It's a Process, and the steps are being followed. Now some on here want to tear it down & start over just because were not winning this year.

GIVE IT TIME.. BEING BETTER WAS PROMISED THIS YEAR!!!

Well guess what? Were light years better this year than last.

If you want instant satisfaction, go to a porn site.

Just leave my Brownies alone.

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Well guess what? Were light years better this year than last.

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I just do see how this can be said. We still can't stop the run, we still have no passing game. The offense is stagnant. We still turn the ball over too much. And the coaching staff still insists on playing over the hill inadequate players over young developing players.

To me it is a wash. There was a talent upgrade at some spots, but over all, this team, except for RB and QB play is the same team as last year IMO, just now instead of having no offense, we have a one dimensional offense that the whole league knows how to stop. Defensively, the same poor tackling and inability to stop anyone on third and long is eerily similar to every freaking year since the return.

I mayself have quit thinking about being in every game anymore, that is a cop out. You got to do more than just play hard and be in a game. That type of thinking is leading us as fans to be happy with mediocrity, and praising it as if it really matters. The fact is this, this team can't win because it don't know how. It don't know how because in my eyes the coaches, the fans and to some extent the local media seems to be acting like "being in the game" actually means something. Wins are what it is all about, and when a team is winning in the fourth quarter as many times as this team has been, too only choke and lose, means that all this talk of a better team is just that ....talk.

When I hear this "well we were in every game" crap, I think of the Geico commercial with the drill sergeant throwing the tissues at his patient. Moral victories are for losers, this team needs to grow a set and become winners, no more of this mamby pamby "they played hard" crap. To me they didn't play hard enough if they can't win when the are winning for the whole game and give it away in the end.

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This is where I'm at with Mangini. He did the same thing in New York... he stripped the team down and built up the foundation with solid guys. The problem is what Mangini does after that.

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LOL What he got was Fired.. impatient ownership, nutty fan base..

the man has fixed a lot of what was wrong with this organization.. For cryin out loud, I sure hope he gets a chance to see it all through..

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No, that's what YOU apologists are saying actually...

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Wow how you like to twist things..

Eryze...welcome to the club...we are few but growing. LOL

The President of the club is a bit overzealous and wouldn't mind Nolan as our HC ...I wouldn't follow him blindly...El Presidente has his faults as we all do ...LOL...but he has made some good points...he's also made some bad ones...but he's been right more than wrong.

And I would have much preferred it worked with Mangini, but I just don't see how it can. I don't think it's the players that don't know how to win, it's the coaches. What has Mangini ever won as the head guy?

Oh yeah the Kew Colts ...LOL

No, your missing the point. The start of the year was to be more competitive. No moral victories was even discussed. The goal was reached. Next up time to run. Which should be next year. Right on track.

Not sure what games you've been watching, but I've seen regression for the past several weeks. Mid-season, yes, if definitely looked like we were on the right track, now we are going backwards. If we are twice as better than last year, then we should be capable of beating teams like the Bengals and Bills.

There's bound to be set backs, no doubt. It's the Team in general that seems to be set up in the proper fashion. We'll see what happens with a little more talent & more experience next year.

I think Mangini has done a good job this year.

The team is definitely getting better with talent and deeper.

We have gone through 3 QB's this year and have been competitive in most games.

SOMETIMES A BEST COACHING JOB IS WHEN YOU HAVE SUBPAR TALENT AND EXCEED EXPECTATIONS.

We all admit that there is plenty of room for improvement at most positions. The team seems to work as a unit and changing the coach now will just throw a wrench into us improving and delaying it another 3 years.

He's done an excellent job in the draft and has made the team competitive. Wins could be better .... but somethings takes time.

What do you mean we can't stop the run????...up until the point when Fujita went down...we were actually pretty solid against the run. We actually led the league for the least amount of rushing TD's given up. You said the "last several weeks"...well what has changed???? Fujita has been out. The guy put people in the right places and he made some plays himself.

I am sorry.....despite what Django says...injuries do play a role...ask the Steelers how much they missed Polamalu last year. One guy CAN make a difference.


This team IS better than last years team......FAR Better.........and anyone who cannot see that.....doesn't know a golf ball from a football.

That does not mean Mangini will be here next year. I think he DESERVES the shot to prove whether he can take that next step.

But you know what...that doesn't matter.

Whether he deserves it or not is irrelevant.

The question Holmgren has to answer is whether the Browns can afford to find out if he can take that next step. Have they seen enough in the way he does things (all those things that we don't see) to believe he can acomplish that next step. I mean the foundation has been built. Core players are here. Now we need to start adding those playmakers.....And based on last years draft....We have the guys to bring those people in. So the question Holmgren has to answer is "Can he afford to find out if Mangini can take the next step?"