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He's been a head coach for 5 years now and still he makes boneheaded decisions like he did in the Rats game. And the bengals game before that. And the Bills game before that. and the Carolina game before that. And the Jets game before that. I know all coaches make boneheaded decisions at times. But I think I just see too many "rookie" mistakes from a guy who's been a head coach this long.
I agree,...this is very, very annoying. And it does not appear he will "grow" or "learn" out of it.
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If you don't believe Mangini is the long term answer then you have to replace him now. He was given a 1 year trial so you know what you are going to get with the guy. Do you keep him or do you go after a Gruden, Fox or Fisher?
I think the Gruden/Holmgren relationship is really strong and he will get the first offer. Gruden also loves the Browns. He gets teary just talking about how him and his dad would watch the Browns growing up. Then you have the comments his son made a couple weeks back and it becomes a very strong possibility.
I still think back to Holmgren drafting Colt on Gruden's recommendation. Everything just seems to be leading the Browns and Gruden in the same direction.
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I see the same ideal marriage and it's why I think Gruden will be the leading candidate should Mangini be let go.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Have to agree with both of these last two posts,...Gruden has some kind of a man crush on Leroy Kelly.
On the point of changing coaches, I do not 'want' Mangini to get fired, but we do not know all of the behind the scenes stuff, so it will be what it becomes,...that is, Mike's call.
I would suggest that we might be better off long term with a Gruden.
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Personally if I had my choice of Cowher, Fox, Gruden, Holmgren and Fisher I would take Fisher. It seems like that Titans team gets dismantled every other year and has been since their big salary cap purge and yet his worst years they were more competitive than the Browns in their best years. The guy can coach and he can coach players up.
With the right front office support and GM support, there would be no stopping Jeff Fisher.
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Pushing me, eh ?  I would take Fisher. Cowher, Holmgren and Fox are no-go's as far as a personal choice goes, for varying reasons. But I don't think Fisher and MH have any of the 'background' the MH/Gruden combo does ?????
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Fisher is still under contract.
Cower isn't going anywhere that doesn't give him absolute control. He's probably headed to Carolina. That's a perfect marriage.
If we get Gruden, I'll puke. I mean projectile vomitting type puke.
Fox is pretty much Mangini. If you're going to make a change, why change one coach for another of the same personality and coaching style? He runs a 4-3 defense though ... so that's a teardown again. So you get the same type of coach, but have to change the team. That makes no sense.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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{{Fisher is still under contract.}}
That doesn't make it a it a no-go, does it ?
Correct on Cowher and Fox,....I don't want to see MH leave his desk.
What's your hesitancy on Gruden ?
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If we get Gruden, I'll puke. I mean projectile vomitting type puke.
Thats how many of us felt with the hiring of our current HC. How anyone can bitch about a coach that has taken two teams to the super bowl while celebrating Mangini and his 5 win seasons is beyond me. I am sorry but thats just nuts.
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#gmstrong
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Quote:
If we get Gruden, I'll puke. I mean projectile vomitting type puke.
Thats how many of us felt with the hiring of our current HC. How anyone can bitch about a coach that has taken two teams to the super bowl while celebrating Mangini and his 5 win seasons is beyond me. I am sorry but thats just nuts.
But he only wins every other year. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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What Wallace said became news because....
...most folks will accept ANYTHING as news nowadays.
Look at how much life this thread has already shown.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I've always loved Fisher and would absolutely LOVE it if he became available. I've met him a few times in Montana and he is just a smart, bright, friendly guy. We got to talk a little bit about the game while his son was playing and he just blew us away.
Gruden I would be equally happy about, Fox....not so much. I'd rather stay consistant with Mangini rather than going with a change in Fox.
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Quote:
Quote:
If we get Gruden, I'll puke. I mean projectile vomitting type puke.
Thats how many of us felt with the hiring of our current HC. How anyone can bitch about a coach that has taken two teams to the super bowl while celebrating Mangini and his 5 win seasons is beyond me. I am sorry but thats just nuts.
But he only wins every other year.
How did Gruden do with developing young QBs?
How did Gruden do in Tampa after he got "his players" in place?
How many years did his Tampa "Super" team make the playoffs during his reign?
Gruden was a voice that helped make the difference for 1 year in Tampa. He had a finished team with the top ranked defense, His offense in his 1st year actually scored fewer points than in Dungy's final season.
His teams never played the caliber of opponents that he would face in the AFC North. This division has 2 11 win teams ...... and the other opponent was last year's runaway winner.
Pardon me if his potential hiring doesn't fill me with the greatest of optimism and excitement.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Gruden has some kind of a man crush on Leroy Kelly.
who doesn't  
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Quote:
How did Gruden do with developing young QBs?
I'm not sure what you mean by this, the only young QBs he had were Shaun King, Bruce Gradkowski, and Chris Simms (unless you count Luke McCown). Not exactly a lot of talent there to develop.
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How did Gruden do in Tampa after he got "his players" in place?
How long does it take to get his players in place. After his first three years in TB, his teams were 35-31 with only one year under .500.
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How many years did his Tampa "Super" team make the playoffs during his reign?
Three years counting his first year there.
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His teams never played the caliber of opponents that he would face in the AFC North. This division has 2 11 win teams ...... and the other opponent was last year's runaway winner.
I think you don't recall how good the NFC South has been in the past years. During the 7 years Gruden was in TB (28 teams), there were only 11 teams that finished with less than 8 wins (6 of those 11 finished 7-9). The Vick led Falcons were good the first few years, Delhomme led the Panthers during the middle years, and Brees got the Saints on track during the latter years. All 4 teams won the division while he was there ( Car - 3, TB - 2, Atl - 1, NO - 1). Five of the Seven years an NFC South team was in the Conf. Champ game.
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Pardon me if his potential hiring doesn't fill me with the greatest of optimism and excitement.
I don't really understand your problem with Gruden, you say he's up and down as a coach. He only had two years with less than 7 wins. One year he had 3 different starters at QB due to injury and the other he got stuck with Bruce Gradkowski, Tim Rattay, and Chris Simms at QB (aka Recipe for Disaster). The only talent he ever had at WR were on the wrong side of 30 (Joey Galloway, Keenan McCardell, Keyshawn). At RB it was Earnest Graham, Michael Pittman, and Cadillac WIlliams.
Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating for Mangini gets axed for Gruden. I'm just saying that if he does get axed, H&H can do a LOT worse than Gruden.
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Quote:
Fisher is still under contract.
Cower isn't going anywhere that doesn't give him absolute control. He's probably headed to Carolina. That's a perfect marriage.
If we get Gruden, I'll puke. I mean projectile vomitting type puke.
Fox is pretty much Mangini. If you're going to make a change, why change one coach for another of the same personality and coaching style? He runs a 4-3 defense though ... so that's a teardown again. So you get the same type of coach, but have to change the team. That makes no sense.
Fisher is, but he is also tired of Bud Adams who in his advancing years is all of a sudden feeling he needs to be a hands on owner.
Fisher is in a power struggle over Vince Young.
Bud Adams loves the guy and Fisher doesn't.
My feeling, and a lot of other people around here feel Fisher has told Adams he will never play Young as long as he is coach hoping it is his ticket away from Adams.
That said....my feeling is Fisher is going to look towards USC as his final coaching post.
It wouldn't take much out of Lame Kiffin to help USC officials decide Jeff Fisher is their guy.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
Gruden has some kind of a man crush on Leroy Kelly.
who doesn't
I have an even bigger crush on Hickerson and Schafrath, Morrow, Wooten, and John Brown etc. etc. ((Hoaglin was a rookie in 66).
THAT is how you play football.
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1st of all Happy New Year to all of you...
For the record:
I don't want Holmgren to HC himself, even though I think he'd be a good HC...but not after accepting the role he has, that's just dirty
I don't want Gruden neither, even though I realize he's been more successful than Mangini...and he'd be an upgrad, no doubt....but it's just something about him I don't like...I think, like Mangini, he needs to be overseen...so maybe with Holmgren it would work...he'd be an upgrade and I could live with him but would remain skeptic at first
My wishlist is:
1a Fisher
2a/b Nolan/Fox
I'd like Kubiak as OC if he gets fired...Fisher or Fox as HC with Kubiak OC and Nolan as DC would be my wet dream scenario...but pretty much impossible...I'd settle for Nolan HC and managing the D-side and Kubiak OC...we'd keep the 3-4, with a mastmind of this D and finally have a top notch Offense mind too
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Back at ya',....still hungover here,....  But still witty,... I agree on Holmgren. I won't be too happy if he lets his ego take charge of this deal,...I like him better behind the desk. It is better in the long haul. Even if Mangini gets the nod for another year. I still sense a change, ...just waiting for Mr. H to make his annnouncement.
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J/C
As others have said i have no doubt Holmgren can coach but with his age he would only be a short term solution and then we would be stuck finding someone else again. Also he would have to give up his job as President or at least have someone else do some of his duties and i'm not sure Randy Lerner would allow that since he hired him to run the whole organization not just the team itself.
#gmstrong
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From one sentence uttered by a 3rd string QB to an unnamed reporter.......
Bingo!!!!
we have a winner.
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Quote:
After his first three years in TB, his teams were 35-31 with only one year under .500.
33-31
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I think you don't recall how good the NFC South has been in the past years. During the 7 years Gruden was in TB (28 teams), there were only 11 teams that finished with less than 8 wins (6 of those 11 finished 7-9). The Vick led Falcons were good the first few years, Delhomme led the Panthers during the middle years, and Brees got the Saints on track during the latter years. All 4 teams won the division while he was there ( Car - 3, TB - 2, Atl - 1, NO - 1). Five of the Seven years an NFC South team was in the Conf. Champ game.
You're only telling a fraction of the story. Yes, "only" 11 teams out of 28 finished with less than 8 wins. But 9 teams finished with 8 or 9 wins. 1 team with 10, and 7 teams with 11-13 wins.
5 out of 9 teams that won the AFC North have had at least 11 wins, including two teams this season that will finish with at least 11 wins. The other four AFC North winners had 10 wins. So forgive me for not getting excited about a guy who might win us 8 or 9 games a year consistently.
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I don't really understand your problem with Gruden, you say he's up and down as a coach. He only had two years with less than 7 wins. One year he had 3 different starters at QB due to injury and the other he got stuck with Bruce Gradkowski, Tim Rattay, and Chris Simms at QB (aka Recipe for Disaster). The only talent he ever had at WR were on the wrong side of 30 (Joey Galloway, Keenan McCardell, Keyshawn). At RB it was Earnest Graham, Michael Pittman, and Cadillac WIlliams.
Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating for Mangini gets axed for Gruden. I'm just saying that if he does get axed, H&H can do a LOT worse than Gruden.
Gruden wanted those QBs, so I'm not going to feel pity for him for being saddled with them. He plays musical QBs. He brought in Brian Griese at the end of his career. He traded for a guy who said he'd retire if he was traded.
You're right, they could do a lot worse than Gruden, but most of those options won't be coaching anywhere else in the NFL any time soon, so its really a moot point.
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If Mangini leaves, it won't be Holmgren, and it won't be Gruden IMO.
if Holmgren goes to the sideline, I think it could create a problem with the Rooney Rule.
How is Holmgren going to interview candidates, then hire himself??
As far a Gruden....I am not sure he would be interested in a job with the front office set-up in place in Cleveland.
Gruden has coached long enough that IMO he would want more control over the roster than is available in Cleveland.....
If we end up with a new coach, it will be a new NFL head coach.....either a coordinator, or possibly a college coach.
That or some NFL retread willing to get back to the NFL at any cost to his power within the team structure.
Who are the Philly coordinators?? They know Heckert, and he knows them.
Sean McDermotte and Marty Mornhinweg.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Pretty good take,....of the "available" options though, isn't it him, Holmgren or Fisher ?
C'mon Mikey, let it out of the bag,.....
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jc..
Not many leaks from Holmgren's office...
Browns fans are not used to such a tight run operation...so we are left to speculate as to what might happen. We react to every rumor that hits the news wire, cheering some proposed actions while poopooing others.
The bleacher report about the various possibilities is dated Dec 22...a week and half old. They cover so many possible candidates that their odds of being correct should be rather high..lol.
If we are going to hear anything before Monday, I would think someone like Chris Mortensen would know, something. But a lack of info could mean that Holmgren has not made up his mind yet.
It appears that Mangini is trying to push the issue, maybe looking ahead to another job opportunity. He may want to know the answer Monday...but it might be that Holmgren is not ready to give him an answer yet, for a reason that only Holmgren knows.
No leaks could mean there is nothing to leak...or that very few know what the next move is going to be and they are not talking.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I guess we'll find out Monday, Tuesday at the latest and I doubt whaterer happens in our final game will mean a whole lot either way.
I imagine Holmgren has his mind made up already and just wants the season to be over before telling the rest of us.
I'd rather stay the course with Mangini but, what can I do?
If Holmgren fires him then the next guy better win right off the bat, getting the same margin for error Mangini has been given..
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At this point I really want Gruden. People keep saying they don't want Gruden because he always has 1 or 2 really good years and then fizzles out - has no consistency. Well, contending for and maybe even winning a super bowl and then going back to suckitude sounds really freaking exciting to me right now.
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My stance on Gruden is really changing, and I'll tell you why.. I really don't think the harda$$ approach works in the league, but it can work if you have the talent to do it. Cleveland IS remaining competitive in most games, which is very different from the past, especially considering the type of teams we have played this year.
But I look at a team like Kansas City, who gets no respect, and who has a head coach who I think is a complete jerk, and they are winning games. Gruden has over a 0.500 win avg coaching over 150+ games. That's pretty good. I'm slowly starting to think that Gruden could come in an keep this team moving in the right direction. I think our offense would change slightly, but our defense would change dramatically. Holmgren will get his 4-3 back whether he is coaching or not. And I think Gruden normally ran it too. I like the 3-4, but whatever gets us WINS, I'm down for.
Edit: Just to put into perspective how many wins he has... there are only 6 current head coaches with more wins than him (Belichich, Shanahan, Fisher, Coughlin, Andy Reid, and Norv Turner)
Last edited by HotBYoungTurk; 01/01/11 05:35 PM.
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http://nfl-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/26754838Holmgren, Mangini to meet Monday Posted on: December 31, 2010 7:08 pm Score: 141 Sign-up to rate: Sign-up to rate: Posted by Josh Katzowitz With so many NFL coaches fired this season – and it’s not even officially coach-axing time! – one of the biggest question marks is the job status of Browns coach Eric Mangini. Obviously, he’s on unsteady ground (he wasn’t Mike Holmgren’s hire and the Browns are 10-21 during his two-year tenure), and we might begin to get further answers on Monday. That’s when Mangini said he expects to meet with Holmgren, Cleveland’s team president. Until then, Mangini hasn’t had the easiest time focusing on the job at hand. “It is and it isn’t,” Holmgren told reporters today. “There are so many things that you have to do during the course of a week to prepare for a game that the amount of time that you have to reflect on other things, it’s not like it’s a tremendous amount of time. Again, I really am proud of the way that the guys have responded. As I’ve said before, if I was any different in my approach and the coaches were any different in their approach, then it’s hard to ask a group of men, a group of players, to be consistent in their approach. “The future will come quick enough. Jake (Mangini, his son) every now and then will ask a question, he must hear things, he asked if we were moving. I said, ‘Don’t worry about it Jake, we will figure it out.’ When you get those types of questions, you don’t think of how I am going to explain the situation to my six year old. That’s part of the human element.” Considering how little talent Mangini has had to work with during his two-year stay in Cleveland, the fact he’s gotten 10 wins out of the Browns is pretty impressive. The fact Colt McCoy played better than expected in his first season and the fact RB Peyton Hillis had such a breakout season also are marks in Mangini’s favor. But Holmgren might want his own guy to coach the team. And if that’s the case, he still has plenty of reasons to give Mangini the boot. Twenty-one reasons to be exact.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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“It is and it isn’t,” Holmgren told reporters today
They wrote this part wrong.. Mangini said this in HIS presser.
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Gruden was always an offensive coach more than a defensive coach. The 4-3 he ran in Tampa (Tampa-2) wasn't his defense, that was Monte Kiffen's defense. It was in place before he got there and he didn't touch it.
I honestly don't remember what kind of defense he ran in Oakland though.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I made an empty post by referencing a disallowed site
YT...nothing new for you.... ...
...sorry, I just could not resist that opportunity... 
...just kidding you dawg... 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I don't even remember what that post was. I think it was the Plain Dealer or Beacon Journal. Weird. Oh well, I love having my posts disappear. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Oh, I remember, it was the Bleacher Report. It was an article linked from the Plain Dealer site about Holmgren's options.
Oh well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I've had 3 or 4 be deleted in the past week, went back to respond to anyone who replied to it only to have them not be able to be located with the search function
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Quote:
I made an empty post by referencing a disallowed site
shame!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Wallace believes Holmgren wants to
coach.
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