DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pluto...Make the Right Moves...And DON'T Fire Mangini...

With the right moves, the Cleveland Browns need not change their head coach:

Published: Saturday, January 01, 2011, 11:56 PM

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The New Year's edition of Sunday's Talkin' ...

About Eric Mangini...

1. Mike Holmgren should keep Eric Mangini as coach, but only if Mangini is open to making significant changes to his offensive approach. I'm talking about the coaching staff and with some schemes. This is not about questioning Brian Daboll's work ethic or character. Nor is it to say the offensive coordinator has had an easy job -- forced to work with five different quarterbacks in his first two years. But last season, the Browns ranked dead last (32nd) in offense. This season, it's 29th. In terms of points per game, it's 31st (17.5 points).

2. The Browns president can't bring Mangini into his office and say, "Eric, meet Joe Playcaller, he's your new offensive coordinator." They need some long talks on what offense works best for Colt McCoy, and what coaches would work best with that offense. A good offense is built around a quarterback, and Holmgren (who insisted the Browns draft McCoy) should have some ideas on this subject. I do think Mangini will be open to suggestions and changes.

3. Some fans will wonder why keep a coach who was 5-11 last season, and 5-10 heading into Sunday. It's because the discipline and toughness that he has brought to the team was needed. They are very close to becoming a winning team, as is evident by all the close games. A year ago, they were outscored by 9.1 points per game. This season, it's 1.9. Ten of their games have been decided by a touchdown or less.

4. One of the arguments against Mangini was his poor 2009 draft (after Alex Mack) and some other moves. Those decisions may end up costing him his job because the lack of talent led to some defeats. But I have no problem with dealing away malcontents such as Braylon Edwards and Kellen Winslow. More importantly: He no longer runs the draft and makes the trades!

5. It's critical to keep the current business model in place with Holmgren as president, Tom Heckert as general manager and an experienced coach on the sidelines. With Mangini, the trio worked together to put together a draft that yielded a future Pro Bowl cornerback (Joe Haden), a starting safety (T.J. Ward) and a starting quarterback (McCoy). Perhaps some of the others picks such as Montario Hardesty, Shawn Lauvao or Carlton Mitchell will pay off. But if not, it already is a tremendous draft, perhaps the best since the team returned in 1999.

6. This front office also traded Brady Quinn for Peyton Hillis, Alex Hall for Sheldon Brown and Chris Gocong. They added Seneca Wallace for a seventh-round draft pick. They signed Ben Watson and Scott Fujita as free agents. The one big swing and miss was $7 million for Jake Delhomme, which Holmgren has openly said was his decision.

7. The franchise hasn't had back-to-back winning seasons since the late 1980s. With Holmgren as president in charge of the big picture while Heckert and his staff find the players, that has a chance to happen again. Obviously, Mangini worked well with this front office as you can see the major upgrade in talent. Nor did we hear of infighting between the front office and coaching staff about draft picks, trades, or other personnel moves.

8. If a 62-year-old Holmgren decided to coach next season, would that lead to short-term thinking? Would it change what appears to be a strong front office structure? If Holmgren does fire Mangini, let's hope it's not so he can coach the team himself.

9. The Browns' main problem is offense. The defense has improved. I do wish coach Rob Ryan's group wouldn't allow so many long drives. But the defense is No. 7, allowing only 19.4 points. It ranks ninth in forcing turnovers, sixth in allowing touchdowns in the red zone. Their overall ranking is 21st, because they allow 345 yards per game -- those long drives that end up with field goals.

10. The Browns are the only NFL team not to allow 30 points. They have allowed only five rushing TDs, tied for the lowest in the NFL. They still rank No. 26 overall against the run, which is not good enough. The defense ranks only 25th in sacks and 19th in touchdown passes allowed. No one is saying it's a great defense, but it can be a good one next year.

11. You can talk about a couple of onside kicks that failed, but I thought both plays had a decent chance to work. The confusion at the end of a couple of halves in terms of clock management is inexcusable. I still can't figure out why it happened once, much less at least three times this season. But I don't fire a coach over onside kicks and clock management issues. I fix it.

12. The special teams have been excellent, especially in coverage. Under coach Brad Seely, they are one of four NFL teams not to allow a kickoff or punt return for a TD in the last two years. They have allowed only 18.3 yards per kickoff return, lowest over in the last two seasons. They're fourth in punt return coverage over the last two years. As for the return game, when Joshua Cribbs is healthy, the Browns are among the best.

13. Most fans don't want to hear about a coach who has lost at least 10 games in his first two seasons being back for a third year. They also don't care that since the Browns have returned, they have had five coaches and five different front office structures. They just want the pain of losing to stop. The Browns have lost at least 10 games in five of six years before Mangini arrived, so it's not as if he dragged the organization into the dumper.

14. Most successful coaches are such because they hooked up with successful quarterbacks. Do you talk about Bill Belichick being a winner without Tom Brady? Bill Walsh without Joe Montana? Sean Peyton without Drew Brees? A coach can mess up a quarterback, but usually a quarterback can make a coach. Sam Rutigliano had Brian Sipe, Marty Schottenheimer had Bernie Kosar.

15. I believe the Browns have at least a respectable quarterback in Colt McCoy. I also believe Mangini knows he's a defensive coach who can use some help with offense. Developing McCoy is the key, no matter who is the coach. I'd love to see Mangini and McCoy return with this front office and a new approach to offense.

I support keeping Mangini....However , a new OC would have to be hired and that might set back our young QB....IF a New Head Coach is hired IMHO he must be an Offesive minded....Brain Billick would Not be a Bad choice and once again , EXPERIENCE IS A MUST !....Gruden wil propbably end up in SF , since I feel that they want him and will jump the gun to sign in ASAP....Beyond coaching , it is CLEAR , that we need more TALENT overall and especially on Offense....A Good OL with no play makers won't translate in wins in 2011 , Lock Out Excluded....

Nice read.....and I agree.

The saving grace for the o this year was having a solid back who could pound out the yards. Had hillis been " just another" guy, things would have been really, really ugly.

Add a receiver who can impact a game, the development of our QB, AND a offensive system that isn't so 'stodgy" in approach, and we can make some moves on O next year.

The beauty of Hillis is he can fit any system....you can pound it out between the tackles, or you can go WCO and call him a H back and let him catch 50 balls a year out of the backfield.


Keep Mangini and demand some change on the coaching staff.

Maybe insert Haskell as O coordinator. We may not even have to look outside the halls of Berea for our answer.

The guy is 68, but seems to be a young 68.

He may even be the guy we look to if we replace Mangini.

Mangini HC
Haskell OC

Marvin Lewis DC...

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11. You can talk about a couple of onside kicks that failed, but I thought both plays had a decent chance to work. The confusion at the end of a couple of halves in terms of clock management is inexcusable. I still can't figure out why it happened once, much less at least three times this season. But I don't fire a coach over onside kicks and clock management issues. I fix it.

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These and other boneheaded, bewildering, choke-type in-game decisions is what gets in my craw. If those things are indeed fixable and if he can learn to become more of a game tactician then I'm good with Mangini. In all other respects he's a good coach. But if it looks like he's going to forever outsmart himself with immature in-game coaching decisions then I'm through with this guy.

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10. The Browns are the only NFL team not to allow 30 points. They have allowed only five rushing TDs, tied for the lowest in the NFL. They still rank No. 26 overall against the run, which is not good enough. The defense ranks only 25th in sacks and 19th in touchdown passes allowed. No one is saying it's a great defense, but it can be a good one next year.

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The NFL ranking method is a joke. If you gave up no points all season but more yardage than anyone else then you would likely be ranked at or near the bottom of the league in defense. The rankings are based mostly on yards allowed. Yards mean nothing. Points allowed is the only thing that matters. To win a game you must score points and stop the other team from scoring. That's it in a nutshell.

With the stats shown above along with our red-zone defense I'm impressed with what Ryan has accomplished. Give him some more talent to coach with and I believe we can become a dominating defense, at least in terms of keeping our opponents off the board and giving our offense a chance.

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A year ago, they were outscored by 9.1 points per game. This season, it's 1.9.

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This is big. It wouldn't be such a big deal to have better numbers in 2010 than 2009 since '09 was one of the historically worst seasons put up by a team. So improvement over that could be accomplished by a wino and his monkey. But an 80% improvement in scoring differential is pretty dang good. That would indicate that even a slight improvement next season should lead to more wins. Quite a few more.

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5. It's critical to keep the current business model in place with Holmgren as president, Tom Heckert as general manager and an experienced coach on the sidelines.

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That is my preference. The reason I've been hawking for Holmgren to coach is because he's already here and he won't make the boneheaded in-game decisions that drive me completely nuts in most games. I mean, there are times that I want to drive up to the stadium, (I'm close enough early in the third quarter), leave a trail of carnage behind me as I onslaught past security onward to the field and slap Manini in the back of the head.

But a few posters on here have convinced me that the best thing for the Browns is to not mess with the FO as it is. And although I'd like to see a head coach who could make more experienced in-game decisions I'm of the ilk, as I said above, that if Mangini could be coached up in those regards then I'm good with him as he grows into the role.

And a big plus with Mangini, until he wins his own superbowl, is that he will forever look up to Holmgren so he should be easily influenced when Holmgren tries to coach him up.

By many of the statements Mangini has made to the press when questioned about his meetings with Holmgren it seems that Holmgren has allowed him to make his own mistakes. You can look at that as giving him enough rope to hang himself or you can look at it like Holmgren can only get a good evaluation on him if he doesn't help him every step of the way. Mangini has said that Holmgren, instead of giving him advise, has instead helped him see all his options allowing him to make his own decisions.

If Holmgren retains him as head coach that dynamic can change significantly. Holmgren can become more involved as he won't be in evaluation mode but more in a "partnership" mode. Even then, so long as Holmgren makes it abundantly clear that the decisions are completely up to Mangini then the head coach won't feel controlled by the FO which should never be the case and would only lead to a bad relationship




I have no idea what Holmgren will do. Whatever it is I am fully on board with it. I just want the dumb-ass stuff fixed.

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...or you can go WCO and call him a H back and let him catch 50 balls a year out of the backfield.

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I think he's got 55 catches this year.

I'd like to keep Gini for sure.. but the offensive philosophy I think needs some tweeking, as well as some fresh faces in here including players and coaches.

1) Daboll sucks. He isn't horrible, but he calls more bad plays than good ones.
2) We need more talent on the field. Out of the 11 players that field the offense, about 5 of them could be uprgraded, and thats ANY WR that sees the field period.

I wonder who will be the new DC if he does leave?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/02/report-rob-ryan-on-the-list-in-carolina/

Report: Rob Ryan “on the list” in Carolina

On Friday, Browns defensive coordinator Rob Ryan said he’d be “really shocked” if he didn’t interview for head coaching jobs this year.

Asked if he heard anything specific, Ryan smartly said that kind of talk wasn’t allowed yet. But it appears some conversations have been going on behind the scenes.

John Czarnecki of FoxSports.com reports Rob Ryan is “on the list” of prospective head coaching candidates in Carolina and is expected to interview there. Chargers defensive coordinator Ron Rivera is mentioned as another possibility.

It’s expected that Panthers owner Jerry Richardson will go for a first time head coach. Arizona’s Russ Grimm has been mentioned as a possibility, but Darin Gantt of the Charlotte Observer has downplayed the chance of that happening.

I think Gini has done a good job, not a great one, you might even say he's done a good job off the field but not on it, with more talent he might win a few next year he lost this year. I just don't feel the guy is going to be the guy who gets us to the next level. He has a good philosophy, it's his implementation I'm not sold on.

I like Rob Ryan, and I'd like him to stay here. But, other than having a famous name, father, and brother, what has he done to really *deserve* a head coaching gig?

I'm not saying he won't be a good head coach someday, but I just don't see him as being that standout coordinator that will *definitely* be a HC some day.

JMHO

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I can see Mangini agreeing to the replacement of Daboll, but I'd be surprised if he will accept having no input in the decision as to who that replacement would be.

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Not as an ultimatum, but to keep his HC gig I could see his input in agreement with Haskill. As Pluto says in the Pluto thread...

"The Browns president can't bring Mangini into his office and say, "Eric, meet Joe Playcaller, he's your new offensive coordinator." They need some long talks on what offense works best for Colt McCoy, and what coaches would work best with that offense. A good offense is built around a quarterback, and Holmgren (who insisted the Browns draft McCoy) should have some ideas on this subject. I do think Mangini will be open to suggestions and changes."

I think with that approach Mangini would see the light and agree to almost whomever Holmgren suggests so long as he feels he can work with the guy.

Mangini, as stubborn as he seems to be regarding certain things, he has displayed a willingness, maybe even a desire, to work with Holmgren and the organizational and heiarchy-type that's been installed in Cleveland. If he's got half a brain, and I think he does, have half a brain, he'll realize that working with Holmgren is key to his success as a head coach in the NFL as I don't really see anyone else being willing to hire him for that position anytime soon.

At this stage, I can't see him overly arguing for the retention of Daboll. Given what the guy had to work with, he did pretty well at times, but there are just far too many completely boneheaded, head-scratcher moments... and I'm sure that even Mangini sees that.

I wouldn't necessarily even advocate firing Daboll, I'd see if he'd accept a demotion to be the assistant under whomever we bring in (Haskell?) because with a year or two (or three) studying under a Holmgren-esque offense, and some more talent, he may be ready to step back up and fill those shoes when Haskell retires. We then get our new OC, and we're grooming his eventual replacement.

There is absolutely zero doubt that if Cowher wants that job, it'd be his... he just needs to say the word.


The thing is, I think Cowher may enjoy the network booth too much to leave.... Gruden too. Anyone notice how many broadcasting gigs Gruden is into now? He has a popularity he never had before and is getting lots of work.... I'd be shocked if he gave that up to coach again.

I also support keeping Eric; we have been so close in so many games. We are about 3 or 4 plays a game from being a playoff contender.

And in looking back at last offseason-I can only hope that we can do that again. That was the best offseason I can remember.

j/c

just throwing this out there. One main argument for keeping Mangini is stability. Do we want to keep blowing this thing up every other year and start over (especially in a potential lock-out situation)??

BUT, what happens if Ryan gets a head coaching job. Defense would be going into a turnover.

I think most of us are on board with an offensive coordinator change.

SO if the offensive and defensive coordinator are new guys---- does that make it easier to just change the head coach as well?

In the end, i would not be shocked to see Mangini and staff out. Keep the special teams coach!!

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There is absolutely zero doubt that if Cowher wants that job, it'd be his... he just needs to say the word.

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A buddy of mine who lives in Pittsburgh and follows them religiously has said that Cowher wants to go to a team that at least has an established QB. That would obviously eliminate Carolina. That being said, it does seem like an obvious fit. For my mone, if Kubiak gets fired in Houston, that's where Cowher ends up.

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8. If a 62-year-old Holmgren decided to coach next season, would that lead to short-term thinking? Would it change what appears to be a strong front office structure? If Holmgren does fire Mangini, let's hope it's not so he can coach the team himself.


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Yes..... imo it would be short sided and it is a big concern of mine, regarding this issue.

I agree that if Mangini is to be replaced it should not be by Holmgren coming down from the FO, because of the above statement.

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I have no idea what moves are going to be made and I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion...BUT..this "stuff" some are trying to float, that somehow Holmgren would be doing something unethical or underhanded if he stepped in to coach again...is pure bull.

I will say it again, is there anyone that believes Holmgren did not lay all his cards on the table when he and Randy Lerner agreed to the terms of Holmgren's hire?

Holmgren may not have told the media or fans about the different scenarios he and Lerner discussed, but that does not give anyone the right to claim Holmgren would be doing anything wrong if went back to the sidelines.

Lerner may have told Holmgren he was open to "anything" Holmgren wanted to do from being the President of the Browns, GM and or HC. None of us were in the meetings between Holmgren and Lerner and to imply that there would anything wrong with Holmgren returning to the sidelines is pure BS.

What was thinking and mind set of Holmgren last year at this time...read below...
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Holmgren still mulling Browns' offer


December 18, 2009

BEREA, Ohio -- Mike Holmgren looked for houses during his recent trip to Cleveland, which may soon be his new NFL home.

Terming a chance to assume control of the struggling but tradition-rich Browns as "very, very appealing," Holmgren said Friday that he's weighing owner Randy Lerner's job offer and intends to give Cleveland a decision on his future "sooner than later."

As for Seattle, Holmgren may have finally said goodbye.

The Super Bowl-winning coach, who spent two days meeting with Lerner earlier this week, said during his radio show on Seattle's KJR that he liked everything he learned about the Browns during a two-day "fact-finding" visit. The former coach of the Seahawks and Green Bay Packers sounded as if he's leaning toward accepting a chance to rebuild the Browns, who have been devoid of anyone of Holmgren's clout since returning to the league in 1999.

Holmgren praised Lerner and the Browns' organization. He complimented embattled coach Eric Mangini. He said he hasn't had much time to study quarterback Brady Quinn, but would be eager to.

About the only thing Holmgren didn't say about the Browns was: I accept.

"It's a wonderful opportunity for anybody," Holmgren said. "It's about as good a job situation as you could ask for in this business."

The 61-year-old Holmgren did not rule out a return to coaching. When asked if a potential job in Cleveland would encompass team president, general manager or coaching, he said, "it would be any and all, I would say."

"Exactly how the setup will be regarding me, that's something I'm still thinking about," said Holmgren, who won a title with the Packers and led the Seahawks to their only Super Bowl appearance. "It's my obligation to let the Browns know when I'm thinking that way. There is a bit of a timetable we're working on right now. I wanted time to come back and think about it, talk to some people about it, and that's where we are right now.

Holmgren gave no indication when he'll give the Browns his decision, and said he is not using the team to get a job elsewhere.

"I'm not trying to leverage anybody or do anything like that," he said.

Holmgren wants to talk to the Seahawks about returning to the team he coached for 10 years. But to this point, Seattle is not showing the same interest.

He said he has not been contacted by anyone from the organization since GM Tim Ruskell resigned Dec. 3. Holmgren said he has been approached by at least one other team, but it wasn't the Seahawks, the team he led to its greatest successes in a 10-year span.

Seattle has yet to begin its formal search to replace Ruskell. The club has not told Holmgren he is not in their plans, and he indicated they may be running out of time.

"I'm very sure that the organization wants to go through a thorough process. That's been made pretty clear," he said. "But there is a little bit of a time crunch here with Cleveland and with some other folks."

Holmgren has been criticized for campaigning to return to the Seahawks, a charge he finds amusing.

"When you say campaign it denotes I made posters, had people walking around," he said. "Look, I don't think it's a big secret that I would like to be considered for a position with the Seahawks. I devoted 10 years of my life to try to make the team good. My family is in Seattle and Seattle is my home. There would be something special [in coming back], but I'm a big boy. Organizations make decisions. You've got to live with them."

Holmgren toured Cleveland and even found time to do some house hunting. Although he was accompanied by agent Bob LaMonte, Holmgren said the sides did not discuss money -- perhaps the only thing left to finalize a deal.

"This was getting to know me a little bit better and them getting to know me a little bit better," Holmgren said from his Arizona home.

Holmgren was vague about his desire to coach again. Also, he would not speculate on Mangini's future. As a former coach, Holmgren said he understands the difficulty in turning a team around in one year. The Browns are just 2-11 in a turbulent first season under Mangini.

"It would really be unfair for me to talk too much about that, other than the fact I like Eric Mangini," he said. "He's a good coach. He's a bright guy. He works very, very hard in his job. Anytime you go in and are responsible for who that person is, in fairness to everybody, you'd better give everyone a chance.

"This is his first year in Cleveland. There has been a situation, Bill Parcells in Miami made a coaching change [firing Cam Cameron] after one year, but having been a coach for so many years, I would be the first one to tell you that's not very fair. But those types of decisions sometimes, the tough decisions, aren't fair. I would do everything in my power to make sure that's the right one and everyone gets a chance to prove themselves."

Holmgren acknowledged there is a lot of work to be done with the Browns, but he seems ready for it.

"The challenge of rebuilding is kind of in my blood," he said.

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There are some possible hints into Holmgren's thinking a year ago, when he accepted the job. Clearly, he was leaving the coaching (again) door open.

The fact that Holmgren has been tight lipped about his plans for the Browns does not mean sports writers like Pluto have a right to go around hinting that it would be wrong for Holmgren to fire Mangini and take over as HC...writing agenda driven crap like this sentence below...


"If Holmgren does fire Mangini, let's hope it's not so he can coach the team himself."


Pluto is using his story to promote his own opinion and his comment above reeks of agenda, as in "Mangini fanboy".

I will continue to support Mike Holmgren, regardless of the position he holds with the Browns, regardless of the coaching or personnel moves he makes.

Here's an interesting sidebar about age and head coaches ......

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/01/looming_labor_strife_a_soberin.html

The kickoff

Perhaps what’s running through Mike Holmgren’s mind these days is the unavoidable realization that the NFL is a young man’s game.

Holmgren will be 63 in June. If he returned to the sidelines to coach the Browns, Holmgren would be one of two NFL head coaches in his 60s. The other is the Giants’ Tom Coughlin, 64.

There are only five others currently on the job in their 50s — Buffalo’s Chan Gailey (59 on Wednesday), San Diego’s Norv Turner (58), Denver’s Mike Shanahan (58), New England’s Bill Belichick (57) and Philadelphia’s Andy Reid (53).

When Hall of Famer Joe Gibbs unretired to return to the Redskins in 2004, he was 63. Gibbs was not the same coach as before, of course, but the NFL he returned to 10 years later also was a different world.

Holmgren had a one-year sabbatical out of the NFL and spent 2010 immersed in the league as Browns president. He has rebuilt the organization. He did a good job putting the pieces in place.

But there’s one piece missing, and he’s got to get that one right. He’s the best man qualified for the job.
-- Tony Grossi

Oh, and maybe someone should tell Grossi that Shanahan isn't in Denver anymore .....

I can't believe that Big Mike is as blind as many of my fellow dogs .. Mangini needs to go ..

Coaching this team right now is like trying to build a house missing a saw, ladder, and hammer.

After this debacle you can go ahead and fire him now.

Problem : This organization has been sing the same ( Swan ) song for 10 seasons now ! .. I just don't now , nor did I ever . think Mangini was the Man ..

We have a couple of pieces in place now .... a couple of questions at key spots ..... and several positions that need serious help.

You can only "coach it up" so much .... and I think that Mangini and his staff did a pretty good job of doing so for much of the season given the lack of talent. However, when a team lacks talent, then loses some of their most talented players ...... no coach will win many games.

That recorded message has been worn out for ME ! .. Just the way I feel !

And ditto for me from your side of things.

You are entitled to your opinion ...... but you refuse to take any factors about the team into consideration.

The one thing we'll agree on is that I sure hope that whatever choice Holmgren makes is the right choice.

We need tough players, not what we have now thats for sure. a real coach would help. we can"t score let alone move the ball.

Not sure why we are still having this discussion. Most in the media say he's gone.

Being objective, Mangini kept his job last year for 1 reason: Holmgren liked how his team battled and competed down the stretch last year. That didn't happen this year.

Mangini is gone

Holmgren does not put up with what happened here today....if Holmgren had any doubt...they were removed today

Mangini will be canned as soon as the Super Bowl is over if not sooner...Sooner if Holmgren is going to take over....Mangini didn't get it done...now mike has the opporunity to build this team the way he wants it...it will be done the Holmgren way..not the Mangini way....

bye Eric....please make sure you don't forget to take your name plate off the door on your way out...best of luck to your in the future.

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Not sure why we are still having this discussion. Most in the media say he's gone.


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Because the media doesn't know jack-squat. They're simply writing/speaking based upon what they think (hope?) is going to happen.

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prp...I know Pluto doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. He's simply a Gini apologist at this point.

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Being objective, Mangini kept his job last year for 1 reason: Holmgren liked how his team battled and competed down the stretch last year. That didn't happen this year.


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It happened, just with different results.

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prp...you watched that pile of dung today and believe that was example of the Browns battling and competing?

You are joking, right?

Firiging Mangini would be a mistake.

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Mangini is gone

Holmgren does not put up with what happened here today....if Holmgren had any doubt...they were removed today

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KofB...I would bet that Holmgren is not very happy about what he saw today...from the coaching staff or from the players.

In some respects, this strengthens Holmgren's position, not that Holmgren was worried about the opinions of the media or the fans.

Anyone still arguing that Mangini should be retained after today's performance doesn't know much about football or Holmgren.