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It would make the whole miserable season worthwhile though if they could somehow upset the Heat .....
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I knew the team would suck but I didn't think they would be THIS bad.
I don't think most Cavs fans had any idea.
I just wonder if some of the articles that were coming out in the Cleveland Media during the playoffs verses the Celtics ((my fav team over the past 7 years) who might have been a center away from winning another championship) had any effect on Lebron James leaving. Or did Delonte really sleep with Lebron's mom, and would that have made Lebron leave?
One thing I did see was that it was very apparent to me that people (journalists and the average fan) were frustrated with Lebron in the playoffs, and I think this might have had an impact on his decision to leave Cleveland.
That, and the fact that the guys who were put around him (whether he approved or not) were garbage). The best player that the Cavs could have gotten would have been Pau Gasol when he was traded to LA (in the most lopsided unfair trade that I can think of). Amare would have been okay, but since he isn't a great rebounder and can't pass well, he can be kind of limited. This is why I'm a little worried about Amare and the Knicks. He needs to learn how to pass the ball, otherwise, he's going to get killed by teams with two big men (unless a shooter like Gasol or Norwitzki can play alongside him, and even then, he would want to improve his passing).
I always looked at it this way, every starter on the Celtics was better than the Cavs starters besides Lebron James. Jamison was nowhere near the level of Garnett, Varejao wasn't as good as Perkins, Rondo was much better than Mo, and whoever was playing against Ray Allen was no match. Paul Pierce is good, but he is no match for Lebron James.
Lebron really was that whole team. I think he won two MVP's in Cleveland, well he probably deserved more (whether you think the guy is a jerk or not).
If the Lakers lost Kobe, their season wouldn't be like the Cavs season. If the Magic lost Howard, they'd find a way to get by. When the Celtics lose a player, they still play well (Celts are deep). The Cavaliers lose Lebron, and it's all over.
So yeah, from an outsider perspective I saw this happening. Unfortunately, I don't really see anyone in this draft that is Lebron caliber; no one that could ever replace what James brought. There is no Kevin Durant type of scorer, not one with his body and athleticism.
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You do realize that this year's Cavs team is not simply last year's minus LeBron, don't you? The only guys getting playing team for the Cavs currently that played with LeBron for any significant amount of time are JJ Hickson and Daniel Gibson, followed by Antawn Jamison, who played a whopping three months with him.
Last year's team had a core of complementary starters with Andy Varajao, Daniel Gibson and either Z or or Shaq coming off the bench. Two of those guys were forced into starting roles this season, one of which had a season-ending injury a month ago, and the other two are gone.
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That, and the fact that the guys who were put around him (whether he approved or not) were garbage).
And has been pointed out several times ... they were about as good as the Cavs could possibly get if you take into consideration the draft picks (or lack thereof), players under contract, and general poopoo platter that Jim Paxson left this team with.
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The best player that the Cavs could have gotten would have been Pau Gasol when he was traded to LA (in the most lopsided unfair trade that I can think of).
Uh, with what trading chips?? Shannon Brown (who had done nothing at that point) and Daniel Gibson? The biggest reason that LA/Memphis trade went through, was that it was more than likely a wink-wink-nudge-nudge deal with Jerry West. Mr. Laker West steps down in Memphis and went back to LA to consult ... next thing you know they guy that got the replacement gig (Wallace) is making a lopsided deal to the Lakers ... hmmm.
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Amare would have been okay, but since he isn't a great rebounder and can't pass well, he can be kind of limited.
Amare is MAYBE the one deal that we could of done that we didn't. From what I heard, the Suns wanted the moon for him. We may of been down Gibson, Hickson and a couple of draft picks had that trade gone through ... of course, if Lebron quit in the playoffs like he did anyway ... Amare probably goes to NY anyway, Lebron still goes to Miami ... and we'd be in an even bigger hole than we currently are.
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I just wonder if some of the articles that were coming out in the Cleveland Media during the playoffs verses the Celtics ((my fav team over the past 7 years) who might have been a center away from winning another championship) had any effect on Lebron James leaving. Or did Delonte really sleep with Lebron's mom, and would that have made Lebron leave?
LeBron was 99.9% gone before last season even started. It had little to nothing to do with Delonte west or the media during the playoffs.
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That, and the fact that the guys who were put around him (whether he approved or not) were garbage). The best player that the Cavs could have gotten would have been Pau Gasol when he was traded to LA (in the most lopsided unfair trade that I can think of). Amare would have been okay, but since he isn't a great rebounder and can't pass well, he can be kind of limited.
It is fairly well documented at this point that a number of the higher profile free agents, like Ariza, have said the single biggest reason they didn't come here was because they were fairly certain LeBron wasn't going to stay... LeBron was simultaneously whining about getting better players around him while he was driving off the players that were thinking of coming here... because NOBODY wanted to be here post-LeBron..
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My memory is really fuzzy on this one ... but back in 2005, the Cavs were trying to go after Michael Redd. I think the Front Office had planned to have Lebron greet him at the airport, but instead he "mailed in" some sort of video pitch for him. Redd was pretty underwhelmed with the effort that Lebron and the Cavs put towards signing him, and he wound up re-signing with Milwaukee instead.
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jc
Another blowout going on tonight. Seriously, how do these guys collect paychecks? If I performed that poorly at my job, I'd be unemployed so fast.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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1. the media had nothing to do with lebron leaving. that's absurd. i'm sorry. any athlete that leaves because the piddly little cleveland media was too hard on him shouldn't be paid to play sports. lebron leaving was months, possibly years in the making.
2. i really hate the entire "well the cavs didn't do a good job of putting players around him" are you really going to base this team right now? this isn't the cavs of last year. better support, better defense. they also had 2 big bodies the cavs have nobody at center right now.
the cavs couldn't go out and just spend money on guys. ray allen and mike redd weren't coming to town. had lebron not been so mum (because he knew he was leaving) 2 years ago they could have landed ron artest or trevor ariza. both weren't coming unless lbj extended. (and yes he could have extended after the '09 season)
not to mention, what makes people think this current heat team is any better than the past cavs teams? 33-14? good record, nothing wrong with that, but a few years ago the cavs finished 66-16. how soon we forget.
that team was built around lebron. of course they were going to fall apart. they were all brought in as players to build around him.
it's too bad the cavs didn't have a gm with shady connections that could net them star players for nothing like other organizations in the assocation...
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jc
Another blowout going on tonight. Seriously, how do these guys collect paychecks? If I performed that poorly at my job, I'd be unemployed so fast.
Kinda funny how after the Cavs cut the Miami lead to three points all of the calls started going Miami's way.
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I'm not saying it was the Cavs fault, I'm just saying what I saw.
The players put around Lebron weren't good, that's why the Celtics beat them in the playoffs last year. It was not because of Lebron. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Lebron leaves and the team goes to garbage. I guess they need a center (I never thought of Shaq and Z, but was Shaq really any good? He's on the Celtics and doesn't really impress me. Perkins is MUCH better, having him back is huge. He is probably the most underrated guy on the Celts. Only takes smart shots and plays great defense)
And what happened to Varejao, is he injured?
I never understood the details of the mephis LA trade, but I do know that Doc Rivers and Danny Ainge were calling foul right away when it happened. Obviously the Cavs weren't lucky enough to get Gasol. But I will say, if you did get him, you probably would have a championship. He's really good.
I'm not against the Cavs or anything, I wanted Lebron to stay (or come to the Knicks, who I enjoy watching(wish they didn't lose David Lee, they'd be so much better with him)). I'm just saying what I saw, the Cavs team simply wasn't that good, Lebron was the whole squad.
That whole Michael Redd thing is interesting, he would have been a very good addition. Him and a big man that can pass the ball well
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You should probably stop talking about the Cavs, dude, because its pretty obvious you're clueless about them.
Yeah, Andy has been out for at least a month with a season ending injury. Yeah, Shaq was pretty good for the Cavs last year, giving them 12 points and 7 boards a game.
LeBron was not "the whole squad"; he was the main cog in a machine with complementary parts. LeBron didn't win 130 freaking games by himself.
You're talking like the Cavs could just force teams to make lopsided trades with them. Newsflash...that only happens when your team has former players in other teams' front offices.
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the cavs could have beat boston had they not choked. while everyone remembers game 5, little do we forget lebron's 9 turnovers in game 6 which was winnable in the final minutes, as well as the complete destruction of the celtics on their home floor, handing one of the most storied nba team's their worst playoff home loss in their entire existence.
yes the cavs could have beaten the celtics. they didn't. it has nothing to do with going up and down the roster. they played as a team, but at some point, something happened, lebron either choked or quit. everyone on this board who talks cavs has watched enough cavs basketball to know that wasn't the same lbj after game 3. something happened. i have watched over 90% of his games since being a cavalier and i can confidently say there was something up. it wasn't about talent. the team was built around him and he was not himself.
you talk the rest of the cavs, i say lebron was as responsible for the exit as anyone else. and based on what we have heard since the decision i feel bad for mike brown. he should still be the coach today. it wasn't him running the stank leg offense, it was his franchise player.
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i also find it funny that celtic fans call out laker management for that obviously shady gasol deal, while they had 2 hall of fame players handed to them for al jefferson and a few high draft picks. must be nice.
it's a freaking fraternity.
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Also, if LeBron's supporting cast was so bad, why did he try to talk them into coming to Miami with him?
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i also find it funny that celtic fans call out laker management for that obviously shady gasol deal, while they had 2 hall of fame players handed to them for al jefferson and a few high draft picks. must be nice.
it's a freaking fraternity.
It's funny, when that trade went down I was kind of annoyed to be honest.
Al Jefferson was my favorite player, and he looked to be a major part of the Celtics. I think we also traded Gerald Green and Ryan Gomes too, whom I thought were going to somehow become good.
As for the Ray Allen deal, I remember being annoyed about that too. I think I wanted Corey Brewer (what a bad call I made). I thought Ray Allen was reaching the end of his career and it wasn't worth the number 4 pick or whatever.
It is a good thing Danny Ainge runs the Celtics and not me I guess. He also made the genius pick that was Rajon Rondo. Toward the end of his rookie year I realized he'd be great (and we didn't need him to score at the time), but I never thought he'd be as good as he is now.
When KG, Pierce, and Allen leave the Celtics, I think they'll still be okay. Rondo and Perkins are very good building blocks for any team.
But yeah, I guess looking back on it, it was a very lopsided deal, even though I didn't see it that way at the time.
Kevin McHale is most definitely a terrible GM. I dunno why the T-Wolves have kept him around so long. Although he did take away my favorite player on the Celtics (Ricky Davis) for White Boy Wally Szerbiack, who was awful.
I always found that trade ridiculously lopsided. I wonder how Ricky D is doing now. On the Celtics he was a good player, he scored a lot of points and played hard defense. I know Cavs fans hate him because of his triple double attempt, but as a Celtic fan, I thought he was great for the team (although he might have been a pain in the butt behind closed doors)
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As for the Cavs, you're right, I really haven't kept track of them this season. All I have done is read about the ridiculous losing streak they've been on and how the value of the franchise has plummeted.
I guess some of my reasons for what happened can be put down, and may be Lebron is the sole reason they did so well season after season.
It's just a shame that this happened. Hopefully the Cavs can get lucky with some draft picks and find a way to get some real scoring (and rebounding/big man defense I guess) on the team
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 02/01/11 09:44 AM.
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Danny Ainge was on the verge of getting fired before he got lucky and made those trades. In fact Pierce was getting so sick of losing, he was close to getting traded himself. The celtics tried to rebuild through the draft, and that failed miserbly. They did acquire enough assets to sway mchale into making that lopsided trade.
That's the thing with going young. I've seen too many times franchises blow things up, and put a bunch of young talented guys together, and more times than not, it doesn't work. If you don't have a superstar, you need a blend of solid vets, plus the young guys. Minnesota is doing the same thing mchale did. Just look at the young guys they have drafted. Flynn, Brewer, Wes Johnson, Love, Rubio. The end result is still the same.
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if you go young, then you need to be patient with it. the trailblazers and bulls went young and it took years, but they built solid teams (the bulls even before they got lucky with Rose had built a solid team but obviously wouldn't have been a champ contender w/o him).
youngsters have to learn to win consistently in the NBA and it takes a ton of time. you need to have a few vet's to teach them the ropes and how to work and you need a coach who can help them grow.
it's risky, sure. but, it's the best way to build a consistent, sustainable winner. plus, if you need to make trades to get vet's to cities like Cleveland, then you need the assets to trade. those are the youngsters.
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Also, if LeBron's supporting cast was so bad, why did he try to talk them into coming to Miami with him?
And now they have lost 21 straight. 
I am sorry for blasting the guy. The proof is in the pudding...we had garbage around him.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Apparently you haven't read this thread ...
On top of guys that left in free agency or other means, we've had a shedload of injuries. Even Lebron said last night that he doesn't recongnize most the guys on the team right now.
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I mean, Shaq, Z, Delonte, Andy, those guys are all playing like crap for the Cavs this year.
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I mean, Shaq, Z, Delonte, Andy, those guys are all playing like crap for the Cavs this year.
And I really thought that all of those guys would be just a little better for us this year ....... 
Just to further your point .....
Last year:
Andy: 8.6 points/game, 7.6 rebounds/game, 1.1 rebounds/game.
Shaq: 12 points/game, 6.7 rebounds/game, 1.1 assists/game
Z: 12.9 points/game, 7.5 rebounds/game, 1 rebound/game
James: 29.7 points/game, 7.3 rebounds/game, 8.6 assists/game.
West: 8.8 points/game, 2.8 rebounds/game, 3.3 assists/game.
That's about 72 points/game, about 32 rebounds/game, and so on.
Oh, and we're also missing Mo Williams as well.
That's not a hole in the roster, that's a cavern.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I think the other thing to keep in mind ... we replaced Lebron with nobody, so we have this giant hole at the SF spot that we were never able to fill with even a competent replacement.
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Right, we've replaced LeBron with Christian Eyenga, Joey Graham and Alonzo Gee. Hard to believe LeBron didn't leave earlier, what with having to be on the same roster as those guys. Or Ramon Sessions, or Ryan Hollins, or Samardo Samuels, or Manny Harris.
YTown, to be fair with Shaq and Z, they weren't getting those stats concurrently...better to treat them as one player for purposes of loss of performance. Still, very tough to replace all the production lost with rooks and UDFAs.
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Even if we "only" take half of that as lost production, that's still a huge hole to try and climb out of.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think our biggest losses were really Shaq and Z (plus Lebron) ... with those 3 gone, our tallest player was Andy at 6-11, and now he's injured ... our tallest guys (outside of Ryan Hollins, who hardly plays) are Jameson and JJ at 6-9. Pretty hard to win a game when you have absolutely zero size in the middle.
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Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, and said as much.
It also has to be remembered that we were bringing Andy, Boobie, Delonte, Z (pre-Shaq injury/Wizards trade) and JJ (post-Antawn deal) off the bench. Guys at their best playing 20-25 minutes a game with extended minutes against opponents' second teams, and as a result we had one of the best benches in the NBA. Not only did we lose the production of the guys who are gone, but the guys who are still around were forced into unfamiliar roles. Daniel Gibson isn't a starting point guard. Andy (when healthy) shouldn't be starting and playing 35 minutes at the 5 for an entire season.
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youngsters have to learn to win consistently in the NBA and it takes a ton of time. you need to have a few vet's to teach them the ropes and how to work and you need a coach who can help them grow.
This isn't always true, look at the Oklahoma City Thunder. They're one of the youngest teams in the NBA and they play very well.
A lot of it has to do with talent. Those guys on the C's (while I really liked them) weren't that good. Big Al was, but the others, not really.
Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant are REALLY good players. Some of the few best in the NBA. Jeff Green isn't too bad either
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I was piggy-backing on a post about how to build without having an elite star. So, I was using those as examples.
Durant is an elite star, so that's not the comparison I wanted to make.
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Durant is a superstar. obviously that team will be good. We're talking about getting young guys that are good, but not at the superstar level. Before Amare went to the knicks, they were getting 25-30 wins, even though they had some pieces. now they have a chance to get to 40-45 in a years time. You look at half the league that is mediocre or bad. they have a few good players, just are lacking either the superstar or depth.
Contraction should be looked at. I think there are 6-8 franchises that should go away. just not enough talent in the league, or as someone else said, too many stars on one team.
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Even if we had all of those guys, how many wins do you think we have?? I would guess somewhere around 14-16.
West was hardly good for us last year, with his mental issues. We played some of our best ball when shaq was hurt. Even shaq in the offseason ripped on mo, saying why is he taking 20 shots a game when he can't play. Ferry did all he could, but that wasn't a championship roster. Top 3 or 4, but not the top.
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You say top 3 or 4 like it's a bad thing, especially considering the shackles put on the team by being in an undesirable location and lack of longterm commitment from the one selling point the team has: it's superstar.
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Yeah, the fact that James wouldn't make any kind of committment really hurt us. Actually, it killed this team. Look at all of the trades we could have made, except that James wasn't willing to make a long term committment, so players didn't want to get "stuck" in the position we're in now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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If james really wanted to be here, we could've had Bosh, and Wade here in c-town. All he would've had to do is give Gilbert a verbal, and let ferry work the cap like riley did in miami. Those guys wanted to play in miami. Nothing was going to change that.
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If james really wanted to be here, we could've had Bosh, and Wade here in c-town. All he would've had to do is give Gilbert a verbal, and let ferry work the cap like riley did in miami. Those guys wanted to play in miami. Nothing was going to change that.
I agree with you.. LeBron was the lynchpin and wherever he decided to go, the others would have gone.. Wade and Bosh without LBJ is a nice playoff team...
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If james really wanted to be here, we could've had Bosh, and Wade here in c-town. All he would've had to do is give Gilbert a verbal, and let ferry work the cap like riley did in miami. Those guys wanted to play in miami. Nothing was going to change that.
I agree.
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If james really wanted to be here, we could've had Bosh, and Wade here in c-town. All he would've had to do is give Gilbert a verbal, and let ferry work the cap like riley did in miami. Those guys wanted to play in miami. Nothing was going to change that.
I agree.
x2
Looking back in hindsight, does anyone miss Mike Brown? I ask because I haven't been able (or willing) to watch the Cavs much this year.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I dunno if I miss Mike Brown, but I really miss watching a team that actually plays defense, because this one sure doesn't.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
No
He would have sucked too. Instead of playing bad defense we would struggle to score 70 points a game.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,333
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,333 |
J/C
When do the CAVS lose the trade exception if they don't use it? My opinion is they need to use it somehow, not on a VET making the full amount but maybe in a 3 team trade where the CAVS get a young player or two along with a couple of 1st round picks. I don't even have any names in mind right now, but we gotta use it, right?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
Quote:
J/C
When do the CAVS lose the trade exception if they don't use it? My opinion is they need to use it somehow, not on a VET making the full amount but maybe in a 3 team trade where the CAVS get a young player or two along with a couple of 1st round picks. I don't even have any names in mind right now, but we gotta use it, right?
I would think that it would be a wasted asset if it isn't used somehow.
I wonder if we could take an unruly contract off someone's hands in exchange for several draft picks or something like that?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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