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mind you...this is only if mangini gets the axe...which, i dont want him to.
but...Holmgren's history for follow-up coaches has not been a glowing endorsement.
When he left the Packers to take on the 2-hat job of Seattle coach and GM he left behind Mike Sherman who was a coordinator and generally seen as the replacement...which didnt go very well
When he left the Seahawks he left behind his hand-picked personally-groomed replacement in Jim Mora Jr....which went well, one 5-11 season before being fired.
Do we really trust Holmgren to hire a coach that is better than Mangini? if he does decide that Eric Mangini is not good enough to coach the Cleveland Browns to a successful future...i personally dont have much faith in his decision making for a head coach.
Mora Jr was a COLLOSSAL failure as a replacement that he PICKED...that doesnt inspire much confidence for me. We talk about getting the ship righted and its on its way...if we change directions...how can we be assured that it is a change for the better?
Do you trust Holmgren? i dont...not in hiring head coaches, in running a team, hiring coordinators, overseeing an operation...but gm and head coach chooser...im very iffy
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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It was Ray Rhodes who replaced Holmgren pre-Sherman.
That didn't go over well either, but I don't think he was necessarily "hand picked" by Holmgren.
As for Jim Mora, I'm not sure if that was Holmgren's move or Ruskell's move.
Either way, the Seahawks were on their way down talent-wise (losing Ted Thompson to the Packers killed their personnel dept) and Mora had to deal with a ton of injuries last year. Pete Carroll hasn't exactly set the world on fire there (despite the division crown, but come on, there's an asterisk attached to that).
Last edited by Ammo; 01/03/11 02:41 AM.
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My opinion, Mangini needs to go, the team didn't progress. When you went 5-11 last year, and had to win your last four games to get there, you don't go 5-11 again the next year. Holmgren will pick the replacement, and he needs to pick a good one. I don't believe there will be a lot of patience allotted to him if he does not hire a successful coach. He's going to get one chance to hire a coach, and then he would be allowed to step in if that doesn't work out, but I think that's it. I don't believe he will get the opportunity to hire 2 or 3 head coaches, so he better make this one count.
Finally, The Maskedman has come back, to the true Cleveland Browns Message Board.
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At this point, I don't see what other choice we have.
I'm certain that he'll give this (possible) decision the due diligence it deserves... his rep is at stake with every big choice.
He's smart and experienced. He's seen it all and knows everyone in the biz. I'm OK with him making the next moves, but I've been around this star-crossed team for too long to trust him with any real confidence.
I hope he exhausts all resources and thinks long and hard about what we do this offseason. If we are to make a change of coaches, he needs to get it right from the get-go. His contract is what- five years(?), a year of that is now gone, and he isn't getting any younger.
The chatter has been constant about Mangini's potential ouster, but to date, I've heard NOTHING.... I repeat nothing from Berea that substantiates this. It was the same story last year. Truth be told, it's worn me out and made me tired of following the latest Browns "news." If it's grinding down my last good gears, what must it be doing to the players?
Whatever he decides, he needs t do it quickly (but carefully). This team needs to know what they can expect at the earliest possible date, so they can begin preparing for the next season.
I have no idea what may come down. All I know is that 2 years of relentless yammering about the head coach is making my head hurt. I'm dying for some stability where this team is concerned. We've always been too thin of talent, too shallow at roster depth, too mis-managed at key positions, and too starved of good news... and unless Holmgren can nail down some of these issues once and for all, I may just die without ever seeing exciting, satifying football from this team.
No other fan base has been screwed as hard and as deeply as this one has. Blame the NFL, blame Art Modell, blame Al Lerner.... they all share their own measure of culpability for this horrendous decade. Holmgren has a lot of inertia to overcome. I'd like to trust that he has the wherewithal to change it, but right now, all I have is prayers.
I'm worn (tf) out.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Quote:
he left behind Mike Sherman who was a coordinator and generally seen as the replacement...which didnt go very well
Ray Rhodes coached the Packers for one year the year after Holmgren left. He went 8-8.
I don't think you remember Mike Sherman's tenure very well though. He went 57-39 as their head coach, his on NFL head job, and made the playoffs four times in six years.
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Do you trust Holmgren?
We have no choice. We have to trust him. He's the man with all the power. But I'm sure he will due his best to make sure we get the best person possible.
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Trust Homlgren?? What other choice do we have, and why wouldn't we?
That is HIS JOB. The problem with this organization since 1999 has been that people aren't doing their JOB. Whether it be the owner, the HC, coordinators, players, scouting staff.....we have yet to see one damned time where everyone has done their JOB that they were hired for and paid very well to do.
People need to start doing their JOB and right this ship because crap like we saw yesterday is getting old. PAST the point of getting old, it is ridiculous.
If MH decides that Mangini can do the JOB at some point when everyone else does their JOB I am okay with that even though right now I don't believe EM can do his JOB right. But, the OC and the players didn't always do their JOB so I can't say for sure.
But yes.....in summary I trust MH to hire or do the right thing and this thread is dumber than hell.
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Can we trust Holmgren?
More than who, Lerner?
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Can we trust Holmgren?
More than who, Lerner?
Or more than whoever Lerner hires in 1 or 2 years to replace Holmgren if we aren't winning by then. 
Some day we have to get off the merry go round of coaching turnover.We're at 4 different full time head coaches in 10 years now. Maybe if we try hard we can get to 6 in 12.
Man .. it just seems to me that, sooner or later, we just have to pick someone and go with them for 7-10 years or so, and live with the ups and downs. Honestly, how much worse can it be than what we've been doing?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yep. I trust the Walrus. I do not see any reason to lay blame at his door. This was the "give 'em enough rope" season. He is believable, fronts office best it has been arguably, and yes, I trust him, at least until I cannot. Because that direction of doubting and damning doesn't build any positives or forward momentum. If Mangini can be salvaged and learn this game and how to manage sidelines, OK. But I see MH going another direction sooner rather than later. He knows everybody up there better than I, so yeah, trust seems in order. I do not have anything upon which to base my doubt. This is not to call you out. I just do trust him very much, more than any coach or FO persons since 1999, and that went well. No guarantees in real life either way. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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The Cleveland Browns did pick someone, Holmgren. This is the man charged with taking us to the next level. If he chooses to stay with Gini, I'm good with that, if he wants to take us in a different direction, I'm good with that too.
Holmgren stayed with Gini when no one thought he would last year, now the question is, in whatever conversation that Holmgren and Gini had last year, did Gini live up to the goals and expectations laid out in that meeting? Only Gini and Holmgren know what those goals and expectations were. If Gini's gone, I'd make the leap of faith that the goals and expectations were not met.
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Quote:
this thread is dumber than hell.
Something I agree with...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I don't care if it's Mangini or someone else ..... but we have to stop the damned merry go round.
This constant change in coaches does us no good. It doesn't allow us to build a team from top to bottom.
This really hurts to say .... but man I wish we could be like the Steelers. They do it right. They hire great assistants, young head coaches who grow into great head coaches, and don't panic when they hit a bump. (even though their fans go insane with panic when they do) The Steelers have a set philosophy, draft well, (and partly because there is no doubt in anyone's mind what kind of players fit in Pittsburgh) and win more than they lose.
Know how many losing seasons the Steelers have had in the past 20 years? 4, with 1 8-8 record thrown in as well. That's astonishing. They've only had 1 losing record in the past decade. Everyone on that team knows what direction they are going. Everyone pulls together. They didn't freak out when Cower hit a rough stretch and had back to back seasons of 7-9 and 6-10.
Ask even a casual fan "what does Steelers football look like?", and I bet you get something like "Run the ball, play tough physical defense". What do we look like? Constant turnover and turmoil?
I just want to know what the Browns are supposed to be. I want to know what they plan on hanging their hats on. I want to know that we aren't going to blow things up every couple of years. I'm tired of rebuilding every 2-3 years. I want to see the team pulling together instead of constantly pulling apart at the seams.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I don't care if it's Mangini or someone else ..... but we have to stop the damned merry go round.
This constant change in coaches does us no good. It doesn't allow us to build a team from top to bottom.
I just want to know what the Browns are supposed to be. I want to know what they plan on hanging their hats on. I want to know that we aren't going to blow things up every couple of years. I'm tired of rebuilding every 2-3 years. I want to see the team pulling together instead of constantly pulling apart at the seams.
Sorry, I had to cut out all that steeler love.
Maybe this is just me making another leap of faith here but Holmgren has a five year contact, I believe anyway. One year down and four to go. I would venture out on that limb and speculate that whatever he decides or whoever Holmgren brings will get those four years.
Now what 2-3 year merry-go-round are you referring to? Palmer got four years, Butch was in his fourth when he walked away and RAC got four years.
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Trust Homlgren?? What other choice do we have, and why wouldn't we?Maybe we could have a drawing of season ticket holders and let the winner select the new head coach. 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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at the end of the day ANY coach can only do so much... The players have to get better.
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What choices do we have....Really
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How do you think I feel? I live 70 miles from Hell ... with Steeler fans all around me who come out in full force every time the Steelers do well. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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j/c
I don't think we should trust Holmgren. I think we should hire someone to come in and evaluate who is out there and have THAT guy hire the coach. We can call him "Team President", or some goofy title like that.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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How do you think I feel? I live 70 miles from Hell ... with Steeler fans all around me who come out in full force every time the Steelers do well.
You should move to Oklahoma. More land than Ohio with 7 million less people and a better economy. Nothing but Cowboy and Chiefs fans around here... 
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
Can we trust Holmgren?
More than who, Lerner?
Or more than whoever Lerner hires in 1 or 2 years to replace Holmgren if we aren't winning by then.
Some day we have to get off the merry go round of coaching turnover.We're at 4 different full time head coaches in 10 years now. Maybe if we try hard we can get to 6 in 12.
Man .. it just seems to me that, sooner or later, we just have to pick someone and go with them for 7-10 years or so, and live with the ups and downs. Honestly, how much worse can it be than what we've been doing?
This decision Holmgren makes is PIVOTAL...
He has to either make a commitment to Mangini for the remaining 4 years he is here or go for that commitment in a new HC...NOW...Now is the defining moment that will dictate Holmgrens success here...And ultimately the BROWNS...
I'm with you on this...Mangini is young for a HC...Gruden is young...Others are young...Holmgren's NOT...He might wanna come down but I personally DO NOT want him too...There's good HC's available...There's good OC's available...And there's even good DC's available...
Make the move NOW...Whether it be Mangini or someone else and STICK TO YOUR GUNZ!!!!!!!!!!
Bellyache made the single most DESPISED decision in the History of the Browns when he RELEASED Kosar...We then turn around and release him...That one will go down in history...
Go Browns!!!
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Palmer got four years
Palmer got two years.
In any case, I don't think the thread starter was saying "should someone other than Holmgren decide who coaches this team next year?". Rather, I believe the point was "can Holmgren be trusted to make the right decision in choosing who coaches this team next year?".
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I trust him to make a "good" decision. Whether it turns out "right" or not, has a way of being measured.
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Quote:
Quote:
Palmer got four years
Palmer got two years.
In any case, I don't think the thread starter was saying "should someone other than Holmgren decide who coaches this team next year?". Rather, I believe the point was "can Holmgren be trusted to make the right decision in choosing who coaches this team next year?".
You're right, I read that wrong. Thanks for the fix.
#GMSTRONG
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But yes.....in summary I trust MH to hire or do the right thing and this thread is dumber than hell.
 /\ This.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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j/c
I don't think we should trust Holmgren. I think we should hire someone to come in and evaluate who is out there and have THAT guy hire the coach. We can call him "Team President", or some goofy title like that.
79...I agree..
...someone with experience coaching in the NFL..
...someone who has been around coaching for long time..
...someone who has seen all kinds coaches..
...someone who knows the difference between the pretenders and the real deal..
HEY...WHO HIRED HECKERT?
Last edited by mac; 01/03/11 08:47 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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JC..
Holmgren can pick a coach, and he could pick the next Paul Brown or Vince Lombardi, but in the end if the players on the team are not capable of winning, then all the coaching in the world won't solve the problem. The coach is only 1 piece, he manages the players. The players have to be able to execute.
So no matter what decision gets made about the coach, we still need Heckert to bring the right players in over the next couple years to build a solid team.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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That's as solid a philosophy as any other.
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but...Holmgren's history for follow-up coaches has not been a glowing endorsement.
Holmgren has NEVER hired a headcoach before. You can't lay Rhodes or Sherman at his feet,, he didn't make the choice. He may have suggested, but he didn't make the decision.
I do trust Holmgren to make the proper choice. And I also hope it's Mangini for another year.
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/03/11 09:27 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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No, I don't think we should trust Holmgren, or anyone. The rate of failure is the only thing thing that has had any consistency within this organization. As others have pointed out, there is little choice, he's going to make the call, but there is no reason to trust it will be the right decision if he does hire a replacement.
The fact that MH is even willing to consider starting over at this point is ridiculous, ego-driven nonsense. If Mangini is fired it will have nothing to do with the good of the team, the organization, the city or the fan base, and will have everything to do with getting his buddies & co-clients work. If he is too blind, or unwilling to see the improvements this season, if he is so driven to oust Mangini in favor of a loser like Morhinweg, Gruden or Fox, if he is so self-righteous as to refuse to accept any of the responsibility for bringing in the INT machine Delhomme, and the perennial back-up Wallace, and putting the team in the position of having to start a third round rookie for half the games, then fire the HC for ineptitude for the miserable record of an injury riddled, mediocre talented team, despite one of the most competitive seasons we've had since the return, then he should not be trusted to cleanly pick his own nose.
I am not happy with the record, and I am especially not happy with the performance on the field the past four weeks, but I will be furious if we have to start all over again, just when the team is starting to show competitiveness on the field. We all know, (the fans, the media, the players & the coaches,) that the Browns need to add a butt load of talent before they even begin to approach parity with teams like the rats & pit. Bring parity, talent-wise, bring stability that lasts longer than 2 season with a talent laden roster under a system of discipline and competitive game planning, then judge the HC on the W-L column. To do otherwise, at this point, is ludicrous, short sighted, knee-jerk mismanagement.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Whoever it is I hope Holmgren comes out and does exactly what the Rooneys do in this case.
"Now you're gonna shut up, be patient and like this coach. All the whining in the world won't get him fired, so deal with it."
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The fact that MH is even willing to consider starting over at this point is ridiculous, ego-driven nonsense.
LMAO...OOOOOOOkkkkkkkk....
Firing Mangini after ONE YEAR is crazy???
The dude gave Mangini a year even though Holmgren comes in here as head honcho...He could've axed him last year...He gave him a chance and he may have failed in Holmgren's eyes...This is Talent vs. Coaching Talent...
Holmgren may not like the Offense we r running and none of these guys KNOW how to run what Holmgren foresees as the O of choice...He's so much as said it when he was hired and commented on winning 4 in a row running the ball...Strike ONE...
Holmgren DOES NOT like the defense we run...He's said it himself that he sees waaaaaay more movement than he'd like to see...Strike TWO...
Holmgren CANNOT possibly like the Clock Management of Mangini...Amongst other things that make us all scratch our heads...STRIKE THREE!!!!!!!!!!!
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The fact that MH is even willing to consider starting over at this point is ridiculous, ego-driven nonsense.
Strike FOUR...You're OUT...............TWICE....
Go Browns!!!
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This really hurts to say .... but man I wish we could be like the Steelers. They do it right. They hire great assistants, young head coaches who grow into great head coaches, and don't panic when they hit a bump
I've had the same thought for years now Ytown.. and I believe it all starts at the top., We now have Holmgren and Heckert and both appear to be the right guys at the top. Maybe for the first time, they are the unquestioned leaders of this team. They certainly have the credentials.
Let's see what they do now.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Firing Mangini after ONE YEAR is crazy???
Yes.
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The dude gave Mangini a year even though Holmgren comes in here as head honcho...He could've axed him last year...
So what?
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He gave him a chance and he may have failed in Holmgren's eyes...This is Talent vs. Coaching Talent...
This is gibberish.
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Holmgren may not like the Offense we r running and none of these guys KNOW how to run what Holmgren foresees as the O of choice...He's so much as said it when he was hired and commented on winning 4 in a row running the ball...Strike ONE...
Nobody likes the offense we are running, there's very little talent, and half an O-line. The failure at the QB spot sits directly on Holmgren's shoulders.
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Holmgren DOES NOT like the defense we run...He's said it himself that he sees waaaaaay more movement than he'd like to see...Strike TWO...
This has nothing to do with anything.
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Holmgren CANNOT possibly like the Clock Management of Mangini...Amongst other things that make us all scratch our heads.
No one said Mangini is perfect, that he can't learn or continue to grow. And I can't recall a game that I've seen this year where one coach or the other didn't make some type of in-game, bonehead decision.
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Strike FOUR...You're OUT...............TWICE....
Your strike system means absolutely nothing to me. Much like your muddled, rambling opinion. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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j/c
yes, i trust Holmgren to make the right choice on the next head coach. I just hope the head coach gets it right when he assembles the staff. No more experiments with young unproven coordinators that are supposed to be the "next bright guy".
I want experienced guys leading the offense and the defense. In some ways, those two positions are more important then the head coach. Heck, i'd be happy with keeping Mangini and replacing Daboll. Put an experienced offensive coordinator in place running the WCO and allow Mangini and Ryan to figure out this defense.
So, we might all get unglued with a MM hire as a headcoach, but if the offensive and defensive coordinators have experience, we should be ahead of where we are now.
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Why should we stick with the wrong guy for 10 years?
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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We keep flipping through head coaches like we're trying to use the Yellow Pages as our coaching directory.
Sometimes you just have to pick a guy and decide that you're going to live with the growing pains ..... that you're going to live with the ups and downs ..... and that you're going to allow him to develop.
Don't kid yourself here ... we're headed for a complete systematic change here. Holmgren aid it without saying it. Many of his answers were double talk, and he also said that the next guy may need time to get things together and headed in the right direction. That's GM Speak for Rebuilding. (again) Sooner or later we just have to decide that we are going to ride out some tough times.
I don't think that anyone could debate the fact that the Browns were an improved team this year over last ..... and a better, more disciplined team than under Romeo. We improved in scoring and in scoring defense, and did so against a much more difficult schedule. Now I realize that some people feel that a game against any team in the league is as difficult as any other .... unless you lose to one of those lower win teams ..... (and that somehow that "logic" makes sense to them) but this team improved in many ways without it showing up in the win column.
So do we bring in a new guy and can him in 2 years if we go into teardown and rebuild mode yet again, and then he's at 5-11 or 6-10 in 2 years?
I would love to bring in some super experienced coordinators, and actually develop a head coach for once. Look at the Steelers model, and that's how they do it. They don't do a teardown of the whole system when they change coaches. (on the rare occasions that they do)
Give the next guy the time to put a program together. I know that everyone wants a winner the 1st year, and some feel (and have stated this) if we're not in the payoffs by the 2nd year, well then the head coach is a failure .... but that doesn't make it so.
We need to build and develop a staff, a head coach, and a team. That doesn't happen overnight, and it doesn't happen without bumps in the road. We need to handle the bumps in the road, and stay on the road instead of driving into the ditch every couple of years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 30
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 30 |
Are you itching to be a reporter???
cuz this has to be the stupidest question I've seen asked in a while.
Browns fan in Canada.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
Why should we stick with the wrong guy for 10 years?
And who dictates the "Wrong Guy"?...2 years???...3 years???...
All u "I gotta have it NOW" people???...All u GENIUS armchair GM's???...All u GENIUS HC's???...Genius OC's???...DC's???...
Ask Rooney how it's gone down...
Ask Kraft how it's gone down...
And don't tell us Tomlin was some highly sought after genius...
And don't tell us Belichick was some highly sought after genius...
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,440
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,440 |
Do all of those teams have stability because they win or do they win because of stability?
I think winning brings stability and continuity. Not the other way around.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,120
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,120 |
Not everyone is cut out to be head coach. On one hand, we can't keep firing coaches every two years, on the other, we can't afford to keep a guy that is obviously the wrong guy. I'm talking in general here, not anyone specific. Continuity for the sake of continuity is just as idiotic as changing coaches every two years.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should we trust Mike Holmgren to
pick our next HC??
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