DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum QB for 2007!

Who said I had such strong faith in him? My whole point was the same as that other QB. We need more talent on the OL to judge his performances, strengths, and weaknesses. As for the gauges you mentioned, Charlie has passed those. What is left to be seen is on the field. Without a better OL, it can't be judged and likely there won't be much progress. Regardless, as I said before, why would anyone get another rookie to throw to the wolves without first acquiring the protection in such an investment?

I think they are both going to draft Tory Smith and cut him in half ashe is the only QB in the world who doesn't need a O-line.

I love good sarcasm Soup... know where I can find some? <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

And this will remotely compare to our situation when those kinds of games become the exception and not the norm...

But as it stands now, Frye is 30th on the list in qb rating.... 1 spot behind Leinart, he's 7 spots behind Eli, he's 15 spots behind Alex Smith, 18 spots behind JP Losman, 23 spots behind Philip Rivers, and 29 spots behind the UDFA Tony Romo...... and soon we will get to see where Jay Cutler ranks on the list..... anybody taking bets he's NOT ahead of Frye? In fact the only qb of the group that I can find who would be behind Frye is Vince Young... but his record as a starter is 4-5.... must be the rest of the mighty Titans team picking up the slack...

These are his contemporaries, these are the guys with which he will be compared... so go ahead, everybody can start posting why every player on that list has a better situation than Frye does....... and at some point you will have to realize that what you are listing... are excuses.

Trust me...I know what sarcasm is.....

I know you were pointing out that Frye bashers were getting carried away with their bashing and that you were trying to draw attention to it by making similar comments about established QBs...my point was you jumped the gun by using Hasselback before the game was over... Hasselback had a game I would have willing accepted from Frye... 3 INTs, but with 3 TDs.... What can we do to get that kind of game out of Frye...after all, the Browns have had 0 offensive TDs in Frye's last three games......

How's that for sarcasm...??? <img src="/images/graemlins/azzangel.gif" alt="" />

BTW, Shaun Alexander rushed for 201 yards for the Seahawks...not LT....
LT plays for San Diego...

I won't argue that the Browns have not had a great rushing game this year... To the best of my knowledge, Alexander did not throw the INTs or the Touchdown passes that were attributed to Hasselback...

But he did run the ball into scoring position so Matt could throw the TD's.


It's a TEAM game.

Simple brain fart, pardon me....however, you were lauding the fact that the Seahawks won. That has more to do with the rushing attack than the passing game. Also, if you don't understand how a great running game can set up the passing, then we don't need to discuss this any further.

You really want to wait until 2008 to have a winning season I sure the hell don't. Shaub is the answer and If the FO is not smart enough to sign the guy in the off season or someone that is close to his caliber to compete with Charlie, 2007 will be another losing season. I won't stick around to watch them win 3 to 6 games again next year I will relicate my football watching/rooting to college football.

I got news for you, Nick. 2007 will likely be a losing season NO MATTER WHO THE QB IS. Too many holes to fill and QB is the least of them. It appears as though you are one of those casual fans that thinks that the QB is the savior or the goat. Learn the game and the responsibilities of each player and then talk about being "smart enough" to make decisions on the team. Savage is MUCH smarter than you and I.

I was also lauding the fact that Hasselback had 3 TDs to go with the 3 INTs that you were criticizing him for. The Browns have not had an offensive TD...running or passing for more than three games...

I'm not arguing the fact that we need a running game, or the fact that our backfield can not pick up the blitz. I'm not even aguing the fact that we need better offensive line play. What I'm arguing is the fact that we have not had an offensive touchdown in three weeks and the fact that the blame for that lack of production rests primarily on the one person on the offense who touches the ball on every play and is responsible for distributing the ball around the offense (the center does not distribute the ball to anyone but the QB/punter/FG holder... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

I'm willing to admit that there are other problems with the offense, other than Frye. What I don't understand are the people who say that Charlie is the only player in the offense that has no problems....

Yes...We need OL... Yes, we need RBs.... Yes, we even need a wide receiver who can shut up and catch the damn ball... and YES...we need to do something about the QB position because the offense can not cross the goal line. No one on the offensive team, has as much to do with the team's success as the QB. If the offense can not cross the goal line, why is it so hard to say that the Quarterback should be held accountable for the lack of success?

Right now we have no options at QB.... It's Charlie Frye or a 1930's style single wing with a direct snap to whoever shifts behind center.... While TE is a team strength (Single Wing is a TE oriented offense), and the single wing may be a novelty approach, the multiple shift is not an option in the NFL anymore... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The ball would still have to be snapped to Frye...

So once again... We are stuck with Charlie Frye and only Charlie Frye. Why is it so impossible for anyone to understand that we need options at QB? If Charlie gets hurt...we have no options...Romeo won't even play Anderson for mop up duty when we are losing by 30 points late in the 4th quarter.

A QB for 2007...YES... No Quarterback should expect to keep his job when his offense goes three games without a touchdown...especially when one of the games was a shutout by the worst defense in the league....and no team can be expected to play with only one QB....

The Cowboys had Bledsoe...but they also had Romo...who was capable of challenging and taking the job. It made the Cowboys a better team. Maybe a playoff team. The Broncos have Plummer...but they also have Cutler...who is capable of challenging and taking over the job. It remains to be seen if Cutler can make Denver a better team or not, as they are already in playoff
contention...but at least they have options. Right now, the Browns are not in playoff contention, can not score offensive touchdowns (they haven't for 3 games) and have no viable options at Quarterback.

I'm not advocating for a Savage to draft QB.... We should use the draft for OL, DL and RB.... I'm asking for a trade or FA signing of a QB who is capable of challenging Frye and giving the team some options...

I never criticized the INTs....you're confusing the posters <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I was pointing out that the rushing game helped set up those TDs and helps improve the passing game.

Who said Charlie was without problems? Please link to ONE post saying that. He has had and will continue to have problems. That's a part of learning the QB position. What prolongs such a process is all those things you just mentioned. The reality is that you cannot lay the blame of lack of scoring solely on the QB when there are so many other problems with the offense. Just as it's not all to his credit when things are great, it's not all his fault when they're not.

The problem is that a losing season in year 3 of a building program is inexcusable. It takes 3 years to turn a ship around into a playoff team. If it's not done by year 3, something is VERY wrong.

Panthers went from 1-15, to 7-9 to the Superbowl. Why the *expletive* can't we do that? ESPECIALLY with tons of salary cap space?

Something's wrong with that picture. Everyone stresses patience, how can we be patient when we see teams around us turning around in less than 2 years?

And if you're gonna say it's the exception, not the rule, well, lately it's become the rule, not the exception. (see: Baltimore '02-'03, Jacksonville '03-05', Chicago '04-'05, the list goes on and on)

LOL, first of all, look at the situations of those teams you listed. Ammo, you are young and don't fully understand the concept of rebuilding a team....or for that matter building one as that is REALLY what we are doing. Those teams you talk about were already successful and existing teams. Carolina had made it to the playoffs and had been playoff contenders before, as was Jax, Baltimore, Chicago, the list goes on and on and on. These teams had a BASE to build off of. We didn't. The team was TOTALLY blown up. Next year is YEAR TWO of the BUILDING of a franchise, not the REBUILDING. I like you, kid, I really do. Your enthusiasm and passion are commendable. Your frustration and lack of patience shows that you need to step away from the Madden game and look at how successful teams that stay successful are built <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope the door that slams on your backside has a small handle. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Are you crazy? Chicago hasnt been a good football team in years. Look at the Saints, Look at the Jets both are rebuilding with little talent what do they have in common? These are well coached teams with good QB's. Put charlie Frye on either team and they would not be where they are today...

Also, Insulting people wont make your point any stronger. Couple questions? When the FO picks up a good FA QB this offseason are you gonna step up and say you were wrong? When that QB then takes Charlie's job next preseason once again are you gonna step up and say you were wrong. Im willing to take that chance and to be quite honest with you I hope I am wrong, I like Charlie Frye and up to the last couple games I supported him 100%. However, Ive come back to earth now and realized he is not the quarterback savior for the Cleveland Browns. So once again I ask you as I step away from the madden game. What happens when you're dead wrong? Ive got an Idea how bout you keep your criticism and insults to yourself! <img src="/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

You and others like you are why this team continues to not change year after year. If you don't expect change as a fan you wont get it! Im not asking for the Browns to got to the superbowl next year or even make the playoffs. Im just asking that they improve. What is so wrong with that? Id be very happy with an 8-8 record next season but as I stated earlier I refuse to spend thousands of dollars every year to watch the same crapola. My season tickets, the money I pay for hotels, the merchandise Ive bought it will all stop along with many of my friends and fellow fans. We've all discussed this and we refuse to watch another pathetic season. On the other hand you and yours will continue to give Lerner and the FO your money for a bunch of crap! Ive not called for Romeo's head or Savage because I believe they will bring us a winner and make many changes this offseason including another good QB to challenge Frye. I think our D is 3 to 4 players away from being a top 3 defense in the NFL. There is no reason whatsoever that we cant go 8-8 or better next year and I believe that will happen but If it doesnt I hope you and yours seriously think about the decisions you make as a fan If you ever wanna see this team a winner.

I hope the door that swings open has a big handle. You'll need it to get a grip on reality! <img src="/images/graemlins/plthumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

I have a firm grip. 16-0, 0-16 I have always been, am now, and will always be a Browns fan. If you want to walk out on the Browns then go for it. Just use some KY jelly so that doorknob doesn't get stuck where the sun don't shine.

General Reply: We wont draft a QB this year with the OL in this kind of shape. We may go the FA route with Schaub or Leftwich but I doubt it.

The most likely situation is Frye for another year getting beat up. A year for the new OL to come together then we draft or go FA.

Charlie Frye's teams start winning in his 3rd year as the QB.

Frye's record as a Starting QB
1997 at Willard - 2-8
1998 at Willard - 2-7
1999 at Willard - 10-2 - Lost (33-27) in playoffs to the State Runner-Up (Frye threw for 350+ yards)

2001 at Akron - 3-7
2002 at Akron - 4-8
2003 at Akron - 7-5

2005 at Cleveland - 2-3
2006 at Cleveland - 3-8


In Frye's 3rd year as a starter at Willard, and Akron he led them to things they rarely do. I have a feeling he'll do the same with this youthful Browns team.

Willard = a joke at Football
Willard = 5 League Titles in the last 60+ years. Frye led Willard to one of those Titles
Akron = a joke at Football
Akron = Four 7 win seasons since turning D-1A. Frye led Akron to one of those 7 win seasons.
Cleveland = a joke at Football
Cleveland = 0 League Championships in the last 40+ years

I look at it like this, if Joey Harrington and Drew Brees can improve, Charlie sure can. I know he is one of the hardest working QBs in the league and the game has yet to slow down for him. It may never slow down or it could happen this week but investing 65 mil in a rookie QB is not how i would like to improve.

he has 16 starts. Lets give it a little more time.

Another way to look at it is he is 32-59 if I have his pro record correct.

The point is I don't see how he did in HS has ANYTHING to do with what he is doing now.

JMO.

So, how do you KNOW that those teams would be worse with Charlie? You don't, you are speculating. Chicago wasn't good before this year? What about a couple years ago when they made that Cinderella run? They've been building for years to get to this year and guess what, they have questions at QB. The Jets have been horrible? Just a couple of years ago they were playoff contenders. Those teams had a base of talent to build on. Cleveland did not.

If you took the rest of the post as an insult, then try educating yourself on how a team is built. Don't blame me that you are spewing the rhetoric of the typical ignorant fan. Learn a little more about the game if you don't like being told that what you are typing on this board is so far from reality in how things work in football that it's laughable.

Brees 1st 16 ganmes are head and shoulders abover Frye's 1st 16 games played. Brees had more TDs than INTs in his 1st 16 games started. Frye is at 13/21.

Harrington played great against the Lions, but hasn't really set the world on fire with the Dolphins. He's been OK ..... but that's all the Dolphins can really expect out of their backup.

Some guys struggle, but show signs that there will be a future. Some guys struggle with thing that are fundamental to the very position of QB, such as pocket awareness, basic reads, making the throws required, and so on. The complex reads, pre-snap cues, changing plays, etc., are well beyond them. Charlie, IMHO, falls into this category. I think it's funny that people wanted Frye to be able to change plays at the line, audible, etc. .... when he really hasn't shown himself capable of just making his reads. He hasn't shown a great deal of awareness. He hasn't shown that he can consistently see the whole field. This is essential to calling your own plays ... and Charlie is nowhere near that level of capability ..... and personally I don't think he'll ever get there.

I am just the king of wishful thinking on this one. I have seen very little improvement in the kid. I am not a Frye fan and would rather have kept McCown to be honest. But we are in a situation now where you are better off just using the cheap guy to take the beating and hope he improves. Until we have a line and a RB, there isnt much use in spending a ton of dough on a QB. I hope he improves but doubt he will. If not atleast he will make a decent backup.

The only problem is that we will (mark my words here) wind up getting rid of some OL guys who are competent because "they suck" .... and they'll go on to play well elsewhere ...... and we'll keep wondering why we're not improving. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Brees played 1 game as a rookie. Year 2, Brees started 16:

In 2002 - Tomlinson had 1683 yards, 4.5 YPC and 14 TDs RUSHING
He also had 79 RECEPTIONS (real tough throw 79 times)

Brees rating was 76.9

Removing Frye from the Equation, the ENTIRE Cleveland Browns team has 704 yds at 3.1 YPC

Our entire squads of RBs have 36 receptions total

Browns RBs account for 64 rush yds per game
LT accounted for 105 rush yards per game.

Want more perspective? The Browns leading rusher in Frye's first 16 games have a total of 903 yds rushing. - 56 yards per game

If you think a QB should be a rousing success with that, you are out of your MIND.

Quit using half the facts for your argument.

<img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure it's all on their quarterback's shoulders. They're defense has done nothing.....



Well, I will tell you that the Saints have some great players on their O and D line and the best 1-2 RB punch in the NFL.

AND, that the Jets have the two best players available at Center and LT in last year's draft. By the way, they might not make the playoffs either....oh yeah, and they lost to the Browns.




Brees is arguably a top five NFL quarterback. I'll give you that. But Pennington? When he's not on IR, he can have good or horrible days. The Saints also don't HAVE to rely on Brees' arm as much as we have to rely on Charlie's.



What's a QB Savior without an O Line?

I have an idea, here people...just a simple thought:

The Browns have not been a good team since 1999. They've experimented with a 1st overall pick, a breakthrough backup, and two quarterbacks that have been to the pro bowl....none of them worked...yet they IGNORED the offensive line nearly the ENTIRE time.

People laughed at Cincinnati when they took Levi Jones. Imagine that. They built their O Line before they confronted their QB problems. What I would have given to have picked that man over the crap we took.

Bottom Line: "CHANGING THE QB POSITION HASN'T WORKED! NOW HOW ABOUT FIXING THE OL INSTEAD?" Then we'll worry about QB.

Nick also forgets that Brees struggled mightily his first couple of years and the Chargers drafted another QB because of concerns of his ability. See what patience can do with a young QB. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[color:"orange"]I thought this was interesting...

PEYTON MANNING
16 games started
3-13 RECORD
575 ATT
326 COMP
56.7 Comp %
3739 YARDS
26 TD
28 INT

CHARLIE FRYE
16 GAMES STARTED
5-11 RECORD
496 ATT
307 COMP
61.9 COMP %
3084 YARDS
17 TD (includes 4 rushing)
19 INT [/color]

[color:"white"] Nick also forgets that Brees struggled mightily his first couple of years and the Chargers drafted another QB because of concerns of his ability. See what patience can do with a young QB [/color]

so we should draft another young QB to help charlie out? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tell u what feeling I have..if the Browns bring on another QB , it will be one who can take over if they give Frye another year or not...so it's going to be a vet.

Attack, I can agree with you on bringing in a vet and I think that vet will be Tim Rattay. As I think Ken Dorsey will be gone. Anderson will remain the 3rd stringer. However, if we did get a young guy for just in case purposes, then I'd like to see us draft Brian Brohm, Louisville. Although I don't see us drafting QB with SO MANY other NEEDS on the team. OL, DL, CB, and maybe RB.

i've got the same feeling. it looks like there may be more to choose from this off season also.
i know we may be looking at a major shakeup this year. don't know what it is, but i'm gettin that feeling again.

If U mean the HC...UNLESS the team freefalls the last 5 games..I don't it coming there.
I see them releasing certain players..those they deem to be quitters..

no, but it would be nice...

the steelers were at the top of the mountain last year, now they're a bad team making dumb mistakes

the new england patriots, when they aren't winning super bowls, are putting up a damn good fight....

see the difference?

this organization needs a stud quarterback, someone that the entire city can get behind, we haven't had that in a long, long time

i think matt schaub would be a great addition, at the right price

all the anti-ohio state people don't want anything to do with troy smith, all the pro-ohio state people want him on the browns

my opinion? he's a damn good quarterback, take a look at the penn state game last year, which was his low point, take a look at him now, he's the best quarterback in college (don't even say brady quinn, do not even say it)

his progression over the last year is flat-out amazing

his height is a turnoff, but as i've said before, drew brees is a small guy doing wonders in new orleans... (and why is it, the saints lose their center (bentley) and grab an average-at-best center, and now they're one of the most potent offenses in the league? drew brees.

while i love troy smith, i don't believe he is worth a first round pick, i think there are a ton of players at other positions that we need to address, but beyond the first round, if the browns have an opportunity to take smith ,and they don't, they're dumb.

what troy smith has, cannot be coached, playing big in big games cannot be taught, you either have it, or you don't, in crunch time, you either make the big play, or you don't, and yes, ohio state provides troy smith with a great defense and also a great running game, but great defense and a great running game have not won these big games against michigan over the years, it has been troy smith...

and i'd say on this current michigan defense, most, if not all 11 of those guys will be playing on sundays next year, or in the coming years, he ripped apart a legitimate defense, he tore it to pieces...

i'm hoping teams get turned off by him, and we can grab him in the 2nd-3rd round...

Yeah, and it goes WAY beyond the QB.

In addition to Ben getting manhandled in the offseason, the line isn't blocking that great anymore, Cowher has lost his passion, Ike Taylor makes Ralph Brown look like Champ Bailey, Porter has been sub par, Polamalu has been in and out of games, and they can't automatically convert on third and short anymore.

Last time I checked, the Patriots line still blocked really well and they have an AMAZING 1-2 punch at RB. Oh yeah, and their coach is pretty good when it comes to defensive schemes.

I'll say it again. How many QB experiments have we tried and failed? Fix the line, dammit, and then fix the QB!!!!!!!!

Anyone object to bringing him in if Jax and Byron part ways ?

I think its clear despite what I, or anyone else on here thinks about Frye, a veteran quarterback will need to come in here next season whom ever it may be.....It's obvious Frye is getting battered and beaten up and its scary to think Derrick Anderson is the Browns option if Frye goes down. Every game i'm sure Savage is couting his blessing that Frye hasn't been carted off the field.....

This brings me to Leftwich.... he could potentially be an available vet QB....NowI know he has an injury history, can't move well, and has an awkward delivery....But I think he's got a hand cannon and can get rid of the ball quick. Those are two things I think the young talent in Winslow and Edwards could greatly benefit from.....

For the right price, He would be a nice pick up to compete with Frye and imo probably assume the starting job. Having Frye as the back up would be very nice considering he is a complete opposite of Byron in terms of the way they play the position. .

I understand its all speculation and Leftwich may even stay in Jax ...I only heard a rumor he'll be gone on a FF radio broadcast... but....If he was to go, Grabbing him might not be a bad idea.

Just thought i'd bring it up to discuss.....

Sorry for not reading your post but the title SCREAMS NOOOOOOOoooooooo!!!!!!!

PURE pocket passer and not that great of one...


JUST SAY NO!!

have you seen him throw a ball? he needs time to wind up... he would have gotten sacked about 20 more times this season then Charlie has... just because it takes forever to wind up and then release the ball... I also can't see his abilities being a good fit for the team objective.... JMHO

Yes, I wholeheartedly object!

Why the hell would we want someone elses injury problem? You would want a guy that can't stay healthy on his own current team.... and you want to bring him to the place where injury prone people are created????