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DJ, that's your opinion. I just hope it's the same opinion of the incoming head coach. If his idea is to completely change schemes then we're going to be hearing about how Mccoy can't adjust to a new OC and his scheme and the defense needs to time to learn the 4-3 versus what was run by EM. I'm fine with some roster purges and turnover. But don't want to see another complete rebuild because specific players don't fit a coaches scheme.
That's why I posted that comment. I don't want to see "Extreme Makeover Cleveland Browns Edition Part X". Your post or opinion doesn't reassure me any further. Heckert and Holmgren only have 1 year invested so far in this franchise. By hiring a new HC, it buys them more time for success.
And the next head coach is ......
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J/C.
Whoever is named Head Coach, next year's schedule will probably make MH look like a genius in who he picks as next years schedule isn't nearly as brutal as this years.
Oh lord,, I can hear it now,, we hire a new coach.. he comes in, wins 10 games, gets into the playoffs and we'll hear those that wanted mangini gone say I told you so (hell, they already are  )...
And when the strength of schedule argument comes up,, I guarantee, they'll say it wasn't a big deal
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Well the whole strength of schedule idea goes right out the window when Pittsburg and Baltimore get basically the same schedule. Until we have a Coach and a Team that can beat them and Cinci consistantly... we'll be bottom feeders.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 01/05/11 06:50 PM.
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Good point. 
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Daman, Last time we played the NFC west (under Crennel and Savage with DA as QB nonetheless) we went 10-6 and it earned them a pretty hefty payday. Only to be relieved shortly thereafter.
And the next head coach is ......
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J/C
I don't understand why everyone thinks Jeff Fischer is such a great coach.....
Fisher is another Mangini...but perhaps worse...Fischer IS MEDIOCRITY personified.
in 17 years the guy only has 6 seasons where he won 10 games or more.
in 17 years he has won NOTHING in Houston and now Tenn.
Brian Billick kicked his rear end in the playoffs on the way to the Super Bowl
Everyone complains about Tressell, Fisher is more conservative then Tressell is...
I could just see it now if we get Fisher how people will be ticked off that he is too darn conservative.
At least Billick has a pair and will take chances...no Way Billick kicks a field goal at the 2 yard line...Fisher does...is that the kind of coach you want?
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ord,, I can hear it now,, we hire a new coach.. he comes in, wins 10 games, gets into the playoffs and we'll hear those that wanted mangini gone say I told you so (hell, they already are )...
Or the opposite happens and the Mangini supportors will say that the process WAS working, and if Mangini had been allowed to finish it, we'd have won even more due to continuity.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Nologo did a really nice breakdown a page before to show why I at least like fisher. At least he doesn't ride on the coattails of head coaches in bad situations.
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J/C
I don't understand why everyone thinks Jeff Fischer is such a great coach.....
Fisher is another Mangini...but perhaps worse...Fischer IS MEDIOCRITY personified.
in 17 years the guy only has 6 seasons where he won 10 games or more.
in 17 years he has won NOTHING in Houston and now Tenn.
Brian Billick kicked his rear end in the playoffs on the way to the Super Bowl
Everyone complains about Tressell, Fisher is more conservative then Tressell is...
I could just see it now if we get Fisher how people will be ticked off that he is too darn conservative.
At least Billick has a pair and will take chances...no Way Billick kicks a field goal at the 2 yard line...Fisher does...is that the kind of coach you want?
Pretty good take, but throwing Tressel into the mix is overboard, without qualifying that most of those "everyone's" would be folks outside of Ohio State fandom. THERE ARE Buckeye fans that HATE his conservatism, so the point is well-taken. The "get-rid-of Tressel" Ohio State fans are the dictionary definition of a minority. I know football fans that think he needs to stop wearing sweater vests,.... 
I think Fischer is a stud, and with our front office 'could' probably do a better job in Cleveland in 3-4 years than he has in Tennessee for 17. But that's just an unqualified opinion on my part.
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I am of the opinion that Jeff Fisher usually fields pretty decent teams. Even during his weaker campaigns, his teams were at least tough outs. Those teams are built around the run game and a rough-and-tough defense. His teams also seem to give Pitt fits.
He also seems to be pretty inconsistent. Further, he wears goofy sunglasses.
I'll also give him a little break because he's been stuck with Vince Young for a while.
Last edited by oobernoober; 01/05/11 07:27 PM.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Fisher has, since 2002, also been coaching against a certain team in the same division as his team that just won fewer than 12 games in a season for the first time since 2002.
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Does that affect the fact that he's inconsistent, or that he fields pretty good teams,.... 
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It affects my opinion of him in that I can't find a whole lot of fault in a guy not consistently making the playoffs when his division rival has won at least 12 games for seven straight years (oh yeah, they only won 10 games in each of the other two years) 
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12...+12 = 24 (fun game: count how many of those are Mangini picked)
Well now, if you do as some and give a head coach all the credit for "building" the roster/team then...
Roth, Fujita, Ward, Haden, Coleman, Gocong, S.Brown, Hillis, Mack, Watson, Moore, Womack, McCoy and Wallace
... are all Mangini guys. 
And even though we know better that is the way a lot of potential, experienced coaches get viewed, as having "built" whatever team they last coached. If they did well, record-wise, they get the game ball, if not, the get the goat horns.
Just like it takes a good quarterback, good offensive line protection and a good running game for a receiver to put up good numbers, it also takes a good President, a good GM and a good coaching staff for a head coach to put up good wins.
To much is being made of the win/loss record of potential former coaches without knowing what was behind them in support.
I just wanted to say that.  Well, that and whom ever our next coach is he will have some serious good support behind him.
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... the old coaching staff might overrate some of the bad apples they'd still be willing to work with...and boy did Mangini have tons of them:
StClair, Royal, Massa, Robo, Schaefering, Barton, Elam, Ventrone, Trusnik, Costanzo
You leave Ventrone and Costanzo alone, they are a couple of badazz speical teamers who were major contributors in that regard. And Schaefering was ok in the situational rotation so someone could get some blow. Same with Trusnik.
I agree with you overall that "purging the roster" will only rid us of nobody's and dead weight. The good guys will stay regardless and we've got a few of them, the core if you will. There's 7 on each side of the ball, using only your assessment, and that's a majority of decent to very good players.
A good draft and another sensible FA period and this would be a much more talented roster from the top to most of the way down. Now all we need is a coach and staff who will help "establish a program that will allow this team to compete at a championship level".
#gmstrong
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After what we have had in Cleveland the last 12 years I find it hard to believe some question Jeff Fisher.
Maybe the same who said Bellichek sucks??
If Fisher was coach of the team and we didn't preform well, it would be proof positive coaching isn't our problem.
End of discussion.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Looks like Fisher off the market and Vince Young is on the market! web page
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Looks like Fisher off the market and Vince Young is on the market!
web page
Now it's the end of discussion......
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I had never even thought of Seely. Wowzer. Do you feel that all the world's experience in specials gives him a broad enough base to handle HC in the Bigs. If not that, what could he do as OC or DC? Gonna have to think on this. Quite a pedigree on preparation. Probably going nuts down the stretch as things came apart for the team. Isn't this what Cowher did here with the Browns (if aging memory serves)?
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I wouldn't say that. Their owner said getting rid of Vince does not guarantee Fisher's future with the organization. Adams has said that both situations are separate matters to evaluate on their own.
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As much love as Adams has for Young, I think you can safely read between the lines that smarter heads prevailed and he's sticking with Fisher.
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I wish I could buy you a beer or a coffee or something. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I want someone who is organized. Period. Knows how to get the most out of people--coaches and players. And coaches to win.
I don't care if it is his first head coaching gig or second or third. You either can do the above or you cannot. I see plenty of first time head coaches doing fairly well if not more so.
I will say that I am not crazy about Gruden or Morninwhig. But if they are the guy, they are the guy.
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Quote:
I had never even thought of Seely. Wowzer. Do you feel that all the world's experience in specials gives him a broad enough base to handle HC in the Bigs. If not that, what could he do as OC or DC? Gonna have to think on this. Quite a pedigree on preparation. Probably going nuts down the stretch as things came apart for the team. Isn't this what Cowher did here with the Browns (if aging memory serves)?
Do I feel that all the worlds experience in ST gives him a broad enough base to handle HC? Doesn't sound like it should, but then again, with the right DC and OC,, it could work. He's a leader so yeah, it could work I think.
Is he the best man for the job? Hell if I know!
Cowher I think was our ST Coach at first, then secondary coach with the Browns. Then he went on to be DC in Kansas City and then to Pittsburgh.. In 1992, he became the HC of Pittsburgh.. so basically, he had 7 years of coaching experience.
I saw on here the other day that Mac didn't think that 9 years coaching in the league was enough to be a head coach. I forget who he was referring too..
But Cowher didn't even have that proving once again that years don't seem to matter.. skills are all that matter.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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After what we have had in Cleveland the last 12 years I find it hard to believe some question Jeff Fisher.
Maybe the same who said Bellichek sucks??
If Fisher was coach of the team and we didn't preform well, it would be proof positive coaching isn't our problem.
End of discussion.
They are also not taking into account the butt head of a owner he has had to work with or against.
Fisher has to be one of the top 5 coach's still coaching in the League.
I just wonder how he would fit into our team with H&H above him.
He is sure to want a situation where he has control of personnel decisions and the Draft (not unlike Bill Cower).
I'm not sure we will be able to satisfy him in that way.
I could be wrong here, but I think it could be a hurdle.
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j/c
The biggest thing I want is a young, energetic guy who will get this team up to play.
The actual x's and O's usually come from the coordinators. Now the HC does usually set the philosophy and has their coordinators to carry that out. However, what we need is a Tomlin or a Harbaugh type coach who will get these guys fired up.
After that, get some all-star coordinators and that will be a successful tree, IMO.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
j/c
The biggest thing I want is a young, energetic guy who will get this team up to play.
The actual x's and O's usually come from the coordinators. Now the HC does usually set the philosophy and has their coordinators to carry that out. However, what we need is a Tomlin or a Harbaugh type coach who will get these guys fired up.
After that, get some all-star coordinators and that will be a successful tree, IMO.
That is EXACTLY the route I want to go.
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Quote:
j/c
The biggest thing I want is a young, energetic guy who will get this team up to play.
The actual x's and O's usually come from the coordinators. Now the HC does usually set the philosophy and has their coordinators to carry that out. However, what we need is a Tomlin or a Harbaugh type coach who will get these guys fired up.
After that, get some all-star coordinators and that will be a successful tree, IMO.
It works both ways.
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Quote:
j/c
The biggest thing I want is a young, energetic guy who will get this team up to play.
The actual x's and O's usually come from the coordinators. Now the HC does usually set the philosophy and has their coordinators to carry that out. However, what we need is a Tomlin or a Harbaugh type coach who will get these guys fired up.
After that, get some all-star coordinators and that will be a successful tree, IMO.
Right.....who will be our coordinators is very important.
Trouble is the best ones are working, so teams hire a coordinator who has a proven system and hope they will make a good head Coach.
If you hire a proven head coach he might be able to bring some of his own guys into the fold whom have worked with him in the past, but like I said the good ones are working and that might be easier said then done, so now your back to hiring one of the good ones whom are working under someone else.
Hoping to find fire in a bottle.
Or you can hire a proven head Coach (like Gruden) who can call his own plays.
At least until he has trained someone in house to call plays.
If Fisher is going to be available, then he and his assistants could be hired because they would all most likely be out of work at the same time.
This is an Ideal situation. It hardly ever happens except when an owner is stupid enough to let someone of his caliber go or their contract runs it's course and for what ever reason they decide it's best to move in a different direction.
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I really think the 49ers get Harbough..
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Quote:
Quote:
j/c
The biggest thing I want is a young, energetic guy who will get this team up to play.
The actual x's and O's usually come from the coordinators. Now the HC does usually set the philosophy and has their coordinators to carry that out. However, what we need is a Tomlin or a Harbaugh type coach who will get these guys fired up.
After that, get some all-star coordinators and that will be a successful tree, IMO.
It works both ways.
Sometimes, but the new wave of coaches have all been similar.
Most of the current and successful NFL head coaches who were brilliant coordinators are older guys who can demand the respect.
My point is, the days of guys who paid their dues are pretty much over. The NFL is very much a young man's game.
Now I'm not saying 30's...but early to mid 40's is the butter zone for me.
you had a good run Hank.
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I wish I could buy you a beer or a coffee or something. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I want someone who is organized. Period. Knows how to get the most out of people--coaches and players. And coaches to win.
I don't care if it is his first head coaching gig or second or third. You either can do the above or you cannot. I see plenty of first time head coaches doing fairly well if not more so.
I will say that I am not crazy about Gruden or Morninwhig. But if they are the guy, they are the guy.
X's two...
I was a HUGE advocate of EM. He met the criteria of discipline, getting the most out of his players and coaching them up to play. He clearly had weaknesses as a HC and I was of the belief that he just needed time to acquire talent and he needed an experienced Boss to put the pieces in place for him and that he would learn from his mistakes.
Overall I didn't see where some of his boneheaded moves cost us any games. Going for the FG rather than the TD when we were down 14-0 to Pitt comes to mind. The decision to go for the FG does set a precedent to his offense that he cannot trust them to score and furthermore creates the impression that they cannot execute. Was this the turning point in which he caused them to lose their motivation in the game?? None of us can answer that but it would be a contributing factor for the manner in which we lost. My theory is that it came down to game management and I will be the first Mangini advocate to concede that he was ... poor at clock management. Those are easy fixes though with the right mentorship and that was something he clearly had available to him.
His largest detractors will point to the horrible 2009 draft. Let's not forget that his ahem...... "GM" was the guy that picked these players. Was the draft influenced by EM? absolutely but who really knows how this acquisition went down.
I am burnt out with the ineptitude of this organization (irony at it's finest) because the lack of patience and continuity at the key positions. If there is one shining spot in it all it would be that we have a credible figurehead in place that will atleast set a foundation. What kind of foundation will it become is anyones guess...
In the end Browns fans we are once again left with the promise of change. You would think Obama was running this team with all of the constant upheaval of rosters, poor decision making top to bottom and consistent change.
I will root for the next guy to succeed because my agenda is in the right place and I want to see improvement. I just tire of the trigger happy fans that let their impatience wane on the progression of the team. I am a fart away from 40 and it is looking like there is no reason to be optimistic of the direction of this team save for the fact we have Heckert and a knowledgable Holmgren.
None of these candidates excite me. Not Cowher, MM, Mularky Chucky or any of the other ones. Why Fox has even been mentioned is mind blowing.
I just hope that whoever it is that the fans will afford him the patience to see this team through and that the F.O. will actually let the man have a few years to cultivate and acquire the pieces we need.
I have no more optimism left in me for this team but I know no other. WOn't jump ship nor will I give up but that doesn't mean I am going to discredit whoever the new coaching staff is.... unless it is John Fox 
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I really think the 49ers get Harbough..
If he goes. I think so too will Luck.
And yes I think the 9ers will be his choice if he wants to leave Stanford.
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If Harbaugh goes to SF and Luck declares, look for Luck to pull an Elway.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Why should we? Don't believe the homers telling you we don't have enough talent...it's BS
Damn straight Skippy...
These guys are so damn use to Coaching changes turning into roster turnover it ain't even funny...
THIS time we keep the most important part IN TACT...Holmgren and Heckert...
There WILL NOT be a roster turnover/teardown...It's not necessary...
Replacing a couple STARTERS and 20 CHUMPS is not a teardown...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
Why should we? Don't believe the homers telling you we don't have enough talent...it's BS
Damn straight Skippy...
These guys are so damn use to Coaching changes turning into roster turnover it ain't even funny...
THIS time we keep the most important part IN TACT...Holmgren and Heckert...
There WILL NOT be a roster turnover/teardown...It's not necessary...
Replacing a couple STARTERS and 20 CHUMPS is not a teardown...
I hear you, but it could lead to that.
If the next coach says he wants to run a 4-3, the D is in for major changes.
Maybe th O as well......but on the whole I agree. It won't be a major player turnover.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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j/c, here's a blurb on Shurmur from stltoday.com. Little bit of a St.Louis POV on his playcalling . . . http://www.stltoday.com/sports/football/...17a4a78c22.html* I'm a little surprised in the Cleveland Browns' interest in Rams offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur as a head-coaching candidate to replace Eric Mangini. A little surprised, but not stunned. After all, Shurmur did improve the Rams' points/yards production in 2010. He also did a nice job in acclimating Bradford to the NFL. As I've written and discussed many times before Shurmur's small-ball approach, though irritating at times, was the way the Rams had to do given the limitations at receiver and the inexperience at QB and at offensive tackle. Playing small ball cut down on interceptions and sacks and got Bradford grounded. We can complain -- and I have -- about the play calling in certain games or series, but overall the small-ball offense fit the Rams' personnel. Can Shurmur take Bradford to the next level? That remains to be seen. But there are reasons for the Browns' interest. Others in the media pointed out these factors before I did, but in case you missed it, let's recap: (1) Browns president Mike Holmgren is a West Coast offense guy, and Shurmur obviously fits that requirement; (2) Shurmur's uncle, Fritz Shurmur was Holmgren's defensive coordinator in Green Bay; (3) Shurmur's understudy coaching period took place on Andy Reid's staff in Philadelphia, and Reid is a Holmgren guy -- an assistant to Holmgren in the Green Bay days; (4) Browns GM Tom Heckert worked with Shurmur in Philadelphia; (5) Holmgren and Heckert and Shurmur have the same agent, Bob Lamonte; (6) and as ESPN's NFC West blogger Mike Sando pointed out, Holmgren could keep his hand on the the Browns' offense if he hired Shurmur. From Mike Sando: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/30748/holmgren-and-browns-interest-in-shurmur
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I know what small ball is in the NBA, but what are they referencing when they small ball in the NFL? If they are talking about short passes, then that's the West Coast offense is about.
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I know what small ball is in the NBA, but what are they referencing when they small ball in the NFL? If they are talking about short passes, then that's the West Coast offense is about.
I thought it's what would happen to Mangini when we got inside the oppositions 5 yard line and he had to decide to try a TD or FG!
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Posts: 814
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814 |
Quote:
Just a thought... but what about Ryan? I wonder if he'll interview here too.
. First of all I salute you to be the first poster to state the obvious, Why not ryan?rarely has a coach done so much with so little to work with as ryan. we very well could have beaten the chiefs, jags, bucs, bills, jets, Falcons...had the offense even done a little.
Players LOVE playing for the guy. Holmgren could get a west coast top offensive assistant. Ryan is a MOTIVATOR. Who wants more half baked solutions and on the job training of coaches who have never been the Man. Ryan has paid his dues and would know the personnel. Ryan could attract more players to play for him.
We will not get a pedigree coach, and mike ( maybe I want to coach ) Holmgren fired the only coach that had this team playing tough. ( I throw away the last game because it was a poorly kept secret that mangini and staff were history and the entire team was flat) Try doing a great job at your office where they are cleaning house next week and wee what kind of enthusiasm that musters.
But it won't happen. Ryan does not play defense "by the book". by the book the browns would have been blown out repeatedly and all this coach did is scheme his way into a solid defense of a motley group. I am a fan. I have no vote. I never liked mangini, yet in the end i have to hand it to him, the browns were a team that played everyone tough. I was hoping Mike H would do the job himself, but since he skipped away from that...it is start over again time in Cleveland.
If I had my pick, Mike holmgren if you care a bit, keep Ryan as the head man, and get him a west coast OC> Just my opinion, but we already have our man.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
Who wants more half baked solutions and on the job training of coaches who have never been the Man.
Just to point it out: Ryan has never been the Man either.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
Anybody feel like the league and the media are really pulling for Ryan to get a head coaching job just for the extra entertainment value? Hard-nosed, cussing and, "best of all" Rex's brother.
If I found out he was actually pushed in that direction, I wouldn't be surprised.
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