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Quote:
why wouldnt anyone like a superbowl winning coordinator?
I honestly don't know what his problem is with him, but it is what it is. He just really doesn't like the guy.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
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Ok... so he - by all accounts thus far in this thread - has sucked at everything except QB Coach, yet you're totally ok with him as our OC even though he won't even be doing what it is that is one of an OC's biggest jobs? 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Zorn is considered one of the most knowledgeable offensive minded coaches in the league. He was a fast track coach until he got redskinned lol. I think he would be a great addition and a great fit for what we have.
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He was the Ravens QB coach for only one year.
With that said, that's more experience than most of our guys will have against AFC North opponents.
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If we have him on staff and he acknowledges that Shurmur's the boss w/ no head butting, then I'm all for it. Don't see how it can hurt . . .
The point I'm trying to make is that I cannot see how it can possibly HELP.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Ok... so he - by all accounts thus far in this thread - has sucked at everything except QB Coach, yet you're totally ok with him as our OC even though he won't even be doing what it is that is one of an OC's biggest jobs?
He's sucked at being a Head Coach. Pretty sure that he's only been a head coach and QB coach in the NFL. If he's not going to be calling the plays, then I see no reason on taking a chance on a great position coach to become the OC, especially when he could potentially help Shurmur deal with the pressure of being a HC.
Just like Wannstedt...which this thread should probably get back on track on.
you had a good run Hank.
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Zorn was such a bad OC that he had the play calling duties stripped ....
except for 4th downs or something really bizarre????
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Quote:
Zorn was such a bad OC that he had the play calling duties stripped ....
except for 4th downs or something really bizarre????
Zorn has never been an OC.
He called plays in Washington when he was HC...and stunk.
you had a good run Hank.
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My concern is that Shurmur is going to call his own plays while trying to learn how to be a head coach at the same time.
That was never an issue with Mangini.
Mangini brought in someone to call plays, and he was already familiar with being a head coach.
That is, and has always been my consistently stated concern. I do not want a rookie coach calling plays while trying to learn how to be a head coach at the same time. That was never the case with Mangini here. He wasn't a rookie head coach, and he never called his own plays. I made no hypocritical statements. I have been consistent on this point.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Don't worry, remember, Mike Holmgren has a direct line to call plays with!
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Yes, he was so bad that the ownership relieved him of his duties as a play caller and gave the duties to Sherman Lewis, who was just an assistant coach. Yup, that's the guy I want developing our offensive game plans 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Him calling plays doesn't bother me. I really don't see it as a major issue.
I also don't really care who is named OC since Shurmer is the guy calling plays.
He obviously will have someone there who is the #1 coach on O, but the head coach is involved with the game plan. it's not like the coach tells his coordinators to hand him the gameplan on Tuesday morning. They work on it collectively.
He will have his guy up in the booth sending down suggestions based on what he is seeing upstairs.
I am more concerned with the defensive coordinator since Shurmer isn't a defensive guy.
We have had defensive type head coaches for so long we place a little more emphasis on who is going to be the OC...
Plus, the calling of the plays is the simple part...they have their chart by down and distance and 5-6 plays to run in said situations....all dictated of course by the defensive set.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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And how much better did the redskins offense get after that? And how much better did the redskins offense get when they brought in Shanahan? And that is with an upgrade of McNabb over Campbell at Qb.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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1. Is that rhetorical or are you actually asking?
2. I have no idea.
3. Were you making a point or just asking?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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j/c..
I really wish they would just go ahead and hire someone.. I'm tired the cloud of smoke, and just want to get this coaching thing set, and focus on the draft, and what players need to be targeted.
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There is no reason to rush it.
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So, maybe they hire an OC that is a little less experienced but groomable and until then, Shumur calls the plays? Maybe someone thats currently helping to develop a young QB.. Does that make any sense at all?
I'm beginning to think that Wannestadt would be the better DC for us.,.
My reasons may not hold water, but here goes, when he was the DC for Dallas in the late 80s and early 90's, he had a helluva D.. but they were very young so he really brought them along very well..
Well, unless I miss my guess, over the next several years, our D is gonna have to get young also. might that be a fit?
Purp did bring up a pretty good point, Wannestadt hasn't seemed to do very well when he's not being bossed by Jimmy Johnson.. that can be scary I guess. Can that be dealt with? is it really a problem?
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I guess a little of both. It sure seems to me like the Redskins haven't had significant improvement on offense with the changes they have made but I don't know for sure.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Purp did bring up a pretty good point, Wannestadt hasn't seemed to do very well when he's not being bossed by Jimmy Johnson.. that can be scary I guess. Can that be dealt with? is it really a problem?
His Miami defenses were always solid, if I remember correctly. I mean hell, when your offense has JAY FIEDLER as the starting QB, your defense must be pretty strong to have a winning record.
EDIT:
Wannstedt's defensive rankings in Miami: 1999 - 5, 2000 - 6, 2001 - 5, 2002 - 3, 2003 - 10, 2004 - 8
Last edited by Ammo; 01/18/11 04:22 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Purp did bring up a pretty good point, Wannestadt hasn't seemed to do very well when he's not being bossed by Jimmy Johnson.. that can be scary I guess. Can that be dealt with? is it really a problem?
His Miami defenses were always solid, if I remember correctly. I mean hell, when your offense has JAY FIEDLER as the starting QB, your defense must be pretty strong to have a winning record.
EDIT:
Wannstedt's defensive rankings in Miami: 1999 - 5, 2000 - 6, 2001 - 5, 2002 - 3, 2003 - 10, 2004 - 8
I looked it up, Wannestadt was the DC in 1999 then became the HC from 2000 to 2004 so basically he had a pretty good D the whole time. Who was his DC when he was HC? I can't seem to find that info.
Interestingly enough,, the top admin guy that reports to Holmgren has to have known DS.. he was with Miami for like 30 years until we hired them.
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/18/11 04:33 PM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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J/C
I NEVER thought i'd see the see the day when the Browns fans are actually happy about bums like Dave "freakin" Wannestadt...are you kidding me!? yes this guy is a bum. Why would you want this retread back in the NFL that no one wants anything to do with...the same guy that "resigned" from his HC job at Pitt?
this guy is a loser...why would you want this guy here....i remember his stint with the Bears and Dolphins...mediocre...thats why he was canned.
my lord, if we want a good 4-3 DC look no farther then the Tampa Bay Buccaneers staff...Tomlin came from there serving for 4 years before going to the Vikings
The Kiffin tree (Monte or Lane)
hire a young kid from the Bucaneers staff to be DC...they breed good 4-3 DC and staff down there.
for the love of all that is holy...not Wannestadt or Jauron....you have got to be kidding me...i would rather take a chance with a young guy over these retrad has beens like Wannestadt.
i grew up watching Wannestadt defense in Chicago and Miami and it sucked! as much as i didn't care for Rob Ryan, Rob Ryan is a significant upgrade to Wannestadt
oh my......unbelievable...were even discussing this guy...
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Wannstedt and Jauron's failings are as head coaches. Not coordinators.
By that logic, Dick LeBeau is a bum.
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Quote:
His Miami defenses were always solid, if I remember correctly. I mean hell, when your offense has JAY FIEDLER as the starting QB, your defense must be pretty strong to have a winning record.
EDIT:
Wannstedt's defensive rankings in Miami: 1999 - 5, 2000 - 6, 2001 - 5, 2002 - 3, 2003 - 10, 2004 - 8
A little off subject, but didn't DL Coach Brian Cox played LBer for DW in Miami?
Edit: did Cox's leave town with Ryan I wounder?
Last edited by FL_Dawg; 01/18/11 04:57 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Zorn was such a bad OC that he had the play calling duties stripped ....
except for 4th downs or something really bizarre????
Zorn has never been an OC.
He called plays in Washington when he was HC...and stunk.
that's it.
I think one person was calling running plays and another passing plays and maybe Zorn was caliingup to the booth for a run or a pass and they would call down a play.
It was so bizarre.....
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Keep the laughs coming  
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Wannstedt and Jauron's failings are as head coaches. Not coordinators.
By that logic, Dick LeBeau is a bum.
no, Dick LeBeau failed under Mike Brown and the Bengals..
Jauron and Wannstedt failed in much better situations then Lebeau had in Cincy....
Wannstedt has sucked without Jimmy Johnson....he has...stunk....at least Butch Davis has been able to win in college without Jimmy Johnson and has a playoff appearance and a near win in the NFL playoffs if not for Dennis Northcutt
Wannstedt is NOT a good NFL defensive coordinator...i don't want him anywhere near this team..i watched both the guys stints in the NFL...outside of 2 good years with Jimmy Johnson in Dallas and Miami(Jimmy having a big part in that succes) he has stunk.
i pray to the football gods we don't get saddled with Wannstedt...we will be in trouble...that guy stinks...big time...
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Keep the laughs coming
i try
seriously, you won't be laughing when you see how much Wannstedt sucks!
this is a classic facepalm moment....
give a young guy a chance...it don't even have to be from the Bucs...we would be better off hiring a young guy then some loser like Wannstedt...
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hire a young kid from the Bucaneers staff to be DC...they breed good 4-3 DC and staff down there.
for the love of all that is holy...not Wannestadt or Jauron....you have got to be kidding me...i would rather take a chance with a young guy over these retrad has beens like Wannestadt.
Just my 2 cents .. but I would rather have a guy that has been there before and knows his shortcomings as a head coach to take a step back and only have to control the team aspect. Besides ... do you really want a rookie head coach to have a bunch of rookie coordinators? I'm not bashing I'm seriously wondering.
It's just my opinion but I always feel you need to have SOME experience when on the sidelines ... or if we hit a "oh crap what now" situation on the sideline during a big play or big game .. I'd rather have one or a couple of the coaches be able to say 'relax, I've been through this before...' then have 11 guys look at each other and wonder what we should do next ... eerily it brings me images of daboll staring at our qb when the clock is ticking away ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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You know what KoB... I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if you hate someone, that's who I'll like Go check out the mans record as a DC and you really can't find much wrong with it.. Now you can take this as you wish... I don't really care but: Quote:
When Johnson was hired as head coach of the Dallas Cowboys in 1989, Wannstedt joined Dallas' staff as defensive coordinator. The Cowboys defense was considered one of the best in the NFL under Wannstedt's leadership and he became a prime candidate to become an NFL head coach. When Chuck Noll retired as head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers, in 1992, Wannstedt was one of the finalists for the job, but was ultimately edged out by fellow Pittsburgh-area native Bill Cowher
He did a hell of a job with a young D in Dallas something I think we are gonna have to have here.. Our D is gonna need to get younger over the course of the next few years.
And as Ammo has pointed out, his D's in Miami weren't too shabby either.
Maybe the guy isn't a good HC,, I'll give you that,., But he had a winning record overall with the Dolphins (42-31 which includes his last year that where he resigned after starting the year 1-8) Made the playoffs a couple of times also with the Dolphins.
So, while he may or may not be a good HC, he's always been a pretty darn good DC... OH,, and guess what job we have open... Hmmm DC!
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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You know what KoB... I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if you hate someone, that's who I'll like
How do you know when you are wrong? Just check to see if KOB agrees with you. May the football Gods strike me down if KOB and myself ever agree on anything.
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You know what KoB... I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if you hate someone, that's who I'll like
How do you know when you are wrong? Just check to see if KOB agrees with you. May the football Gods strike me down if KOB and myself ever agree on anything.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Good question pstu24
no, but what is the "definition" of experience.
if a Defensive Back coach has worked with a team for 4 years...he knows how to get things done...i call that plenty of experience...Lebeau started out that way...the only way these young guys are going to get a chance is if you let them...
do you want a young guy with a chance to perform? or do you want a staff full of losers who know "exactly" what to do in big time situations...lose...thats all they have done their whole careers?..i'll take the young guys....if they have been position coaches for a few years and done well..there is no reason not to give them a chance at being coordinators...
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Quote:
When Johnson was hired as head coach of the Dallas Cowboys in 1989, Wannstedt joined Dallas' staff as defensive coordinator. The Cowboys defense was considered one of the best in the NFL under Wannstedt's leadership and he became a prime candidate to become an NFL head coach. When Chuck Noll retired as head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers, in 1992, Wannstedt was one of the finalists for the job, but was ultimately edged out by fellow Pittsburgh-area native Bill Cowher
hey Daman see the "bolded part"...what has Wannstedt done without Jimmy Johnson? i'll tell you SUCKED thats what he has done...stunk to high heaven.
He was a wreck in Chicago...Jimmy Johnson built that Dallas and Miami D and Wanny did ok when Johnson was there, and then the team sucked when he left...their D was"ok" but numbers don't tell the whole story about that division ala AFC East at that time.
you can disagree with me if you want, but this guy isn't a good coach and he won;'t last 4 years here...
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No and that's a good point too .. but I also remember that Romeo Crennel was said to have all the experience in the world ... but we didnt have anyone who could actually "be the leader." I'm all for developing younger coaches and personnel ... but we also need someone to be able to take charge and help develop those young guys.
Don't forget that while Tomlin came into the league ... I think every coach but their strength and conditioning coach was originally the same (then Whisenhunt ended up going and taking a few people with him) ..
My point is just that if you have too many old timers then yeah you will be in trouble .. just like players on the field
But if you don't have any experience and veterans to lead you and help you out .. well I just think it could help avoid a lot of growing pains and help us turn this around faster if we get more experienced and talent players in place
I keep going back to the bears who currently have Mike Martz, Mike Tice, and Rod Marinelli as assistants ... yeah they might not be great head coaches at all .. but they all know enough about their positions to help the entire team develop
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Just clicking... just a side thought:
Why doesn't anyone seem to want to interview Keith Butler, the Linebackers coach for Pittsburgh?
He's been in the NFL for 9 years, 7 of which as the LB coach for them.
Here's the shocker... he got his start in the NFL with - The BROWNS. When Palmer was fired, he was out and was picked up by Pittsburgh.
Anyone know why he wouldn't be a good possibility??
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I am pretty sure it was in his contract that he would take over for Lebeau should he retire but he isnt allowed to interview anywhere else. the Cards wanted to interview him and were denied access.
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Browns and Steelers Coaches just don't mix ... it's not like Knoll, Cowher, LeBeau, or Arians ...  My thoughts are that Butler runs primarlily the 3-4 I thought .. and with Holmy, Heckert, and Shurmur all having experience in the 4-3 it just seems a more natural transition? Then again .. Rob Ryan ran that 4-3 in Oakland before he came here ..
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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What Mourgrym said. He is in line to take over for LeBeau when the time comes.
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Quote:
I am pretty sure it was in his contract that he would take over for Lebeau should he retire but he isnt allowed to interview anywhere else. the Cards wanted to interview him and were denied access.
I didn't think that a team was allowed to deny access if the interview was for a promotion? All we'd have to do is include Asst. Head Coach in the title and they wouldn't be able to block it.
Of course, he can always decline but I'd like to see us ask.
As for the 4-3/3-4 thing.... I'm not so sure I fully buy into it all. Yes, it is what has always been run on Holmgren teams, but I would expect that he'd be fully willing to go with any defensive scheme that promises to produce results (furthermore, Holmgren shouldn't be having a say in that - that should be the Head Coaches prerogative).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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You know what KoB... I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if you hate someone, that's who I'll like
How do you know when you are wrong? Just check to see if KOB agrees with you. May the football Gods strike me down if KOB and myself ever agree on anything.
Well i guess misery loves company.....
oh well i'll just laugh....we will come back to this in 4 years or less and be right back where this started and you can come up with a new argument why hiring proven losers is a good thing....
do you think successful corporations or companies go out and hire failures for their upper level management? if those failures are job related..you know bad numbers, poor mangement, flat out sucks...like a HC...no other company is going to hire him into upper level mangement.
its ok though Mour, I understand...you think hiring proven losers is going to make the Browns "less of a loser"...i get ya
see ya in 4 years....bet its not a good outcome either...i hope Holmgren has more sense then that...he got it right with the young HC...but he shouldn't surround the guy with proven losers.
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