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Nothing in the presser particularly impressive, enlightening or informative
Some of it was U missed it... [edited for content] ...the passing game will be [sic] up graded. They want to be explosive.
You're right, that's quite impressive, enlightening & informative. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Honest question, not trying to fling poo here.
The way you heard him say it, or the way you read someone else heard him say it?
I watched it.
I was shocked the way he said it. Mangini has been nothing but kind and complementary about the browns front office. That just took me aback a bit. It was really classless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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4) Neither does returning to a 4-3 D.
Is this because our 3-4 was so dominate? 
Do you mean "dominant"?
Our 3-4 was #13 on scoring defense.
I'd say that's pretty good considering we were missing a DE and a pass rushing LB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Holmgren did talk to Cower. He did talk to Gruden. He did talk to more people than was reported.
Ha ha.. I wonder what those conversations were like. My guess is, they went something like this:
*ring....* *rrriiiinnnggg* -click-
COWHER/GRUDEN: Hello?
HOLMGREN: Hi Bill/Jon, this is Mike Holmgren of the Cleveland Browns! I wanted to ask-
COWHER/GRUDEN: No.
-click-
Cowher/Gruden: "Hang on, I got somebody on the other line about some whitewalls"
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Holmgren did talk to Cower. He did talk to Gruden. He did talk to more people than was reported.
Ha ha.. I wonder what those conversations were like. My guess is, they went something like this:
*ring....* *rrriiiinnnggg* -click-
COWHER/GRUDEN: Hello?
HOLMGREN: Hi Bill/Jon, this is Mike Holmgren of the Cleveland Browns! I wanted to ask-
COWHER/GRUDEN: No.
-click-
Cowher/Gruden: "Hang on, I got somebody on the other line about some whitewalls"
"Come on Gruden, You're breakin my balls man..."
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Gruden's thought process was probably something like this ......
Let's see .... I can work a 4 or 5 day workweek ..... a few hours/day ....... a few extra on gamedays ....... and make millions .......
Or I can take over a team in the toughest division in football ...... with few established players .... no real superstars yet ..... and work 90-100 hour weeks .......
Lemme think abou ...NO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Cowher/Gruden: "Hang on, I got somebody on the other line about some whitewalls"
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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When I heard that they mentioned they wanted to infuse some youth into the team, I immediately thought of the defense (specifically, the line).
Weren't we going to do that anyway?
We need to change up our WR core in a big way (translation, more explosive). Won't an actual #1 WR do that for us? Weren't we going to do that anyway?
From what I understand (admittedly, that's not much), we still had a lot of work to do in getting talent on our sides of the ball. The draft has a lot to do with that. If you want to call that a rebuild, then go ahead, but I don't see a huge difference between that and what we had to do anyway, regardless of who's coaching.
I think the 3-4 is better than the 4-3, but if switching back to a 4-3 will make it easier to get us top-level talent and use it effectively, I can't be too disappointed.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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We need to change up our WR core in a big way (translation, more explosive). Won't an actual #1 WR do that for us? Weren't we going to do that anyway?
#1 WR AND SLOT WR IMO.
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In a perfect world you see the old guys traded for whatever we can get and we trade down in the first round to acquire extra picks. EDIT: Just a random thought about the press conference... It absolutely kills me how the media in this city acts like the West Coast Offense is a foreign concept to the AFC North like it's the Fun n Gun, Run n Shoot or Rich Rodriguez's spread option.  The West Coast Offense got its start from Bill Walsh, who learned offense from Paul Brown, who founded the Cleveland Browns! (I realize Walsh was in Cincinnati, but my point still stands. Hell, Paul Brown revolutionized offensive football in Cleveland to begin with) In a way, it's like everything is coming full circle.
Last edited by Ammo; 01/14/11 03:43 PM.
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There's a big difference between picking up a dominant pass rusher and a monster DE and retooling your entire scheme, replacing all but one or two of your starting LBs and all but one of your linemen, not including backups. Yes, we need a WR, desperately, so where does he fall in order of priority now that you have to change defensive schemes?
I'm not saying they won't get the job done, or that they can't. I'm saying it will take longer, and going to the 4-3 is not the smart move, (IMHO,) especially in this division. And you can say goodbye to the fluid front, (or amoeba D as some call it).
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I want great players. I don't care about trading back for extra picks. I want players who stud out from their first year on forward.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/C
First I realize that a switch to a 4-3 is going to mean personnel changes. That being said, as was mentioned earlier, we had to upgrade the defense anyway, and it's not as though we're turning the Steelers defense into a 4-3. (i.e. taking a great defense and totally scrapping it.)
In addition, I understand the points that several have made about the 3-4 being a better base defense for various reasons, but there must be some merit for running a 4-3 since the majority of the teams run it. If the right players are acquired, each defense can be good in its own right.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I think where we disagree is that I'm saying we had a lot of work to do even if we were going to stick with the 3-4. Going to a 4-3 will be harder in that we have to switch out some LB's (but I'd argue that we have work to do there, as well, even if we stick to a 3-4).
Almost our entire D-line has to be replaced due to age. Smith is done. Rogers might be done, Coleman is done, etc.
The fact that I don't see much of difference is more of an indictment of where we are with our current defense than the work it would take to change it to a 4-3, I guess.
And to take a step back, the two things mentioned in the press conference (get younger on D, get more explosive on O) have been things we've known we've needed to do, even before this past season.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Romeo had a gut feeling? I knew Butch did... Romeo had a coin toss to help with his though...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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It's not just about swapping out personnel, it's the number of personnel, and the fact that the new scheme will need to be learned and adapted to by the players that are retained. Both of these things take time and resources. Great pass rushing DE don't just fall off trees.
Instead of plugging in a new linemen (or two), moving a couple vets to back-up roles, and hitting the ground running, we'll probably need at least three new starting D-linemen, (assuming Big Baby moves on,) and Rubin will have to will have to unlearn everything he spent three years learning and start over in a new scheme.
You can't think we're just going to go out and land three dominant linemen this off-season. What about linebackers? We keep Fujita, and maybe one or two back-ups like Roth, Gocong & Benard, but now we need at least two solid starting LBs, and Roth and Benard need to retrain. And what about the rest of the back-ups on the line and at LB? What about the time it'll take for the DBs & safeties to learn the new scheme?
And as I said, where does that put the already pressing priority of WRs? What about the need at RT? What about another corner or safety? He's not old, but do you think Elam will stick? What about a change of pace RB, if Hardesty can't cut it? Suddenly those positions aren't as pressing because we need DL & LBs.
There are only so many FAs and draft picks available to us. It's not all going to happen this year. Like it or not, believe it or not, changing from a 4-3 to a 3-4 will set this team back, and does not necessarily guarantee to improve our defensive significantly over time, especially against teams with good O-lines, speed receivers and pass catching TEs.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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jc Did anyone ask him if he knows how to use all his timeouts? 
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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He said he plans on using both of them in at least one half.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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the secondary doesn't really have to be replaced.. It's really just the front 7, and most of those guys need to be replaced anyway.
Rubin needs to stay.
Roth needs to stay, change to DE.
Benard needs to stay.
Gocong needs to stay.
Fujita needs to stay.
DQwell is up in the air, but I'm sure he's done w/ Cleveland, but just with those 5, if they all start, we only need 2 more starters which can be had in free agency and the draft.
You know we are drafting a DT for sure. After that, I don't know how we address defense besides free agency, because the offense will probably get the nod this NFL Draft when it comes to the first few rounds.
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Not saying the secondary has to be replaced, I'm saying they have to be retrained, and the priority of upgrading at safety and DB has seriously dropped. And, as I've state quite clearly, it's not simply about replacing or retaining personnel.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Yeah. Not as much class coming out of Berea it seems.
I just lost alot of respect for Heckert and the last few shreds I had for Holmgren over that classless crap. Hey Tom, this isn't Philly, we don't want dog killing gangbangers or loud mouth cancer WR's here.
Jeez Randy you sure know how to pick 'em.
Uh, what?
It's an over reaction. I heard it when it was said and didn't even come close to getting that sense of it beating Mangini..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Roth is gone. Gocong is fifty fifty.
Elam was a mangini acquisition, may be gone, as was Shaefering.
Wright is also an FA.
Coleman, Smith, Rogers, Bowens, Barton, Jackson - all likely gone with the possible exception of Rogers, who's time is limited.
That leaves Rubin, Fujita, Haden, and Ward as returning starters. 7 new starters on defense is possible. That's a complete rebuild.
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1) Holmgren didn't know Shurmur was a co-client. Bull-poopy.
2) More than three interviews would be a "waste of time". More bull-poopy.
3) Shurmur calling the plays does not instill confidence.
4) Neither does returning to a 4-3 D.
If there is one person on this board I consider to be reasonable,, it's you Cal,, which is why I'm somewhat confused by some of this
1. I guess you are saying that Holmgren flat out lied? I have some doubts about that because if he did, it will come out and he knows it. that would be really dumb. I guarantee you right now, Grossi and a ton of other reporters are out there digging up any potential evidence that he know all along.. Holmgren doesn't appear to be that stupid...
2. To be fair, Holmgren said he spoke with other guys to gauge thier interest in coaching and specifically, coaching the Browns. so more than those 3 guys were involved in the process.
I have no way of knowing how many they contacted, but my guess is, that of all those contacted, showed interest and were qualified, they chose these three and picked Shumur. 35 years in the recruiting business tells me that instead of jumping in with both feet with every candidate, it's wiser to dangle your feet in the water and see how it feels..
3. Again, to be fair, he said he would call the plays initially.. to me that means until he doesn't' feel he needs to. it makes me uneasy, but if Holmgren can live with it, so can I.
4. Both the 43 and the 34 have worked successfully in the NFL for years,, but like you, I"m not thrilled with the switch.
we are talking a complete overhaul of the D and most probably, lots of changes on the O side. not that that bothers me, cause we have plenty of duds out there, but it's gonna take a while to get this team to a point of winning.
that means angry fans, more bellyaching, screaming for heads to role and more lost years.. and that disgusts me.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Why the hell would you assume that Elam will be gone? He played great in the 2nd half of last season as the talent around him improved. (amazing how that works)
Elam is a pretty decent tackler at Safety, and that's what you need in the 4-3. He's not as proficient as Ward, but he's pretty good nonetheless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We were going to need to revamp the entire front 7 anyway. Don't see a big problem in changing defenses.
Our best defenders can play in either system. And it is much easier to get pass rushing defensive linemen than it is to find pass rushing LInebackers.
Last edited by Thebigbaddawg; 01/14/11 05:26 PM.
you had a good run Hank.
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1. I guess you are saying that Holmgren flat out lied? I have some doubts about that because if he did, it will come out and he knows it. that would be really dumb. I guarantee you right now, Grossi and a ton of other reporters are out there digging up any potential evidence that he know all along.. Holmgren doesn't appear to be that stupid...
I wouldn't say he lied, I would say that he spun. I would say that he believes, and probably rightly so, that not everything that goes on in his office or in his mind is fodder for the press. As you say, Holmgren doesn't appear to be a stupid man, I don't believe, personally, (and it's JMHO,) that he didn't know that Shurmur was a co-client. A better answer might have been, "It never factored into my decision making process." Now it just appears that he's either stupid or lying, even if he didn't really know, which I find very hard to believe regardless of what he said.
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2. To be fair, Holmgren said he spoke with other guys to gauge thier interest in coaching and specifically, coaching the Browns. so more than those 3 guys were involved in the process.
I'm not saying he didn't speak to others, I'm saying that his statement, that interviewing more than three candidates is a waste of time, is bull$#!%. It's not a waste of time, it's solid due diligence. Again, a better answer might have been, "After interviewing Pat and others, and reaching out to various others, I felt in my mind that he is and will be the right man for the job." I don't believe that is all there was to his decision making process, I believe he had his mind made up going into it, but that would have been a better answer than saying that interviewing ten people would have wasted everyone's time.
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3. Again, to be fair, he said he would call the plays initially.. to me that means until he doesn't' feel he needs to. it makes me uneasy, but if Holmgren can live with it, so can I.
I don't really care who can live with it, I'm just saying it doesn't thrill me, it doesn't instill confidence, and it makes me wonder how he figures he'll have so much time on his hands, as to be able to draw up and call the the offensive plays for every game, every week. I don't like that at all, especially with a brand new, first time HC. I think he has bigger fish to fry.
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4. Both the 43 and the 34 have worked successfully in the NFL for years,, but like you, I"m not thrilled with the switch.
we are talking a complete overhaul of the D and most probably, lots of changes on the O side. not that that bothers me, cause we have plenty of duds out there, but it's gonna take a while to get this team to a point of winning.
that means angry fans, more bellyaching, screaming for heads to role and more lost years.. and that disgusts me.
I suppose we agree on most of this... but the thing that disgusts me is potentially another year or two of sub-par, mediocre play, and continuing to get our asses handed to us by the rest of the division, while we get the ponies in play. I think that sucks, and there is nothing going on here that leads me to believe that this will be a good, smart, or productive move, that it's merely being done because that's what theses guys are used to, so that's what it will be. No way would they keep a guy like Ryan, or bring in another qualified 3-4 DC because there aren't any notable 3-4 guys that come from his coaching tree. I find that very myopic, much like the selection process in general.
If these things make me seem unreasonable, I suppose I can live with the stigma. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Why the hell would you assume that Elam will be gone? He played great in the 2nd half of last season as the talent around him improved. (amazing how that works)
Elam is a pretty decent tackler at Safety, and that's what you need in the 4-3. He's not as proficient as Ward, but he's pretty good nonetheless.
He may not be gone, and in fact, he should stay, but he is closely tied to the old regime, acquired in the Sanchez trade, and was a pet project of Mangini's. I will be very happy if he stays, but not surprised at all if he's cut.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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1. I guess you are saying that Holmgren flat out lied? I have some doubts about that because if he did, it will come out and he knows it. that would be really dumb. I guarantee you right now, Grossi and a ton of other reporters are out there digging up any potential evidence that he know all along.. Holmgren doesn't appear to be that stupid...
I haven't watched the press conference, but is it possible that he was being funny/sarcastic? I've noticed that he does that a lot in his pressers...
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He may not be gone, and in fact, he should stay, but he is closely tied to the old regime, acquired in the Sanchez trade, and was a pet project of Mangini's. I will be very happy if he stays, but not surprised at all if he's cut.
I will say the same thing about this current regime that I have said about every one since I can remember.... if they get rid of a more talented guy over a less talented guy just because of who brought them to Cleveland, then to hell with them, they can all take the next bus out of town.
I do not have a single problem replacing anybody on this team, from John St. Clair to Joe Thomas as long as the replacement is a BETTER FOOTBALL PLAYER... and that's the only reason.
yebat' Putin
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Elam played well sporadically, but the truth is, we could have upgraded the position with a draft pick or a decent FA acquisition, but now, it will either remain status quo, be a lateral move, or relegated to the back burner because of all the other position needs required to convert the D to a 4-3.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I liked the guy, and am excited were we are going from here. We have never had an actual FO that had a system they all employed, and of the same mind set in that regard. This should be much better than the autonomous dictatorships we've had (Butch and Mangini) and the shotgun weddings as well (RAC/Opie and MH/Gini). The truth is some of you are simply bagging on this guy, because your still mad Mangini got fired. It shows up in your posts whether you think it does or not. My best advice is get over it. Mangini fired himself when he was so pitiful out of the gate that the team started 1-11 and thus made Lerner hire a guy like Holmgren. Unless EM made the playoffs this year he was gone, because his and MH's philosophies are just too different. The good news is we finally have a FO that has multiple layers and structures, and all of them share a similar mind set. As a result of this, I think Coach Shurmur will be very successful here............hell he's the first one who's had a real shot at being successful. Give this team a couple of off season's and we will be back in the playoffs. I expect we will see a better record next year, but going forward we should stay consistently competitive. A very good day to be a Browns fan!!!! 
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Quote:
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1. I guess you are saying that Holmgren flat out lied? I have some doubts about that because if he did, it will come out and he knows it. that would be really dumb. I guarantee you right now, Grossi and a ton of other reporters are out there digging up any potential evidence that he know all along.. Holmgren doesn't appear to be that stupid...
I haven't watched the press conference, but is it possible that he was being funny/sarcastic? I've noticed that he does that a lot in his pressers...
no
fyi, we also landed on the moon
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Elam played well sporadically, but the truth is, we could have upgraded the position with a draft pick or a decent FA acquisition,
Which one of our draft picks would we have used to upgrade the second safety spot, considering we used a pretty high draft pick to upgrade the OTHER safety spot?
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but now, it will either remain status quo, be a lateral move, or relegated to the back burner because of all the other position needs required to convert the D to a 4-3.
Why can't we get a decent FA this year just like we could have last year?
Truth is, I don't think its a big problem. My focus going into this draft is the same for a 3-4 as it now is for the 4-3... we need to upgrade our pass coverage by increasing our ability to rush the passer.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
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we could have drafted kurt coleman in the fifth like i wanted us to 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
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General reply:
My take on the press conference is this. Reading betwen the lines
Mangini PO'ed H&H and the decision to can him was made some time ago and not just a recent decison. Shumor again wasn't a quick decison. I think they have been talking back door through the agent channel for some time.
The hire was as much Heckert as it was holmgren. this was a tandem decision and he is their guy guaranteed.
We are going to the 4-3 and the day of the high character special teamer beating out more talented players is over. First thing I thought about was Haynesworth. Fat Albert and Big Baby lol
I think the 2 coordinators will be Zorn and Jauron. Anytime you can add a former HC to a staff it is a win. We need experienced coaches. You can't have an inexperienced group of coaches being led by a first time HC.
I loved the fact he put OL first then QB. Thank God someone gets it. Mangini inherited one of the best OL in football and turned it into a disaster.
Explosive offense was emphasized. We need speed and run after catch players.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
the day of the high character special teamer beating out more talented players is over.
What talented players did we get rid of in favor of "high character special teamers"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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B-Mac is the first one that comes to mind.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Bernie Mac played here?
or Brandon McDonald? The guy who has started two games in his two years since he left here.. with the two teams he has been with, the Cardinals and Lions.....
yebat' Putin
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur introductory press
conference...
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